A tale of two totes...

[Scott M Perry]

Hi, all -

I picked up an Atkins 10" back saw about 11 years ago. Had it filed by Tom Law at the time, 14 PPI rip, mainly for dovetailing. I was a complete newb (arguably still am), and didn't like the tote, so I made a new one. The original seemed small (it wasn't) and had broken horns. I made a new, open tote out of cherry, increased the size a bit:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8084/8279128786_6c3944f123_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/scott--/8279128786/)
Atkins 10" Backsaw... (https://www.flickr.com/photos/scott--/8279128786/) by Scott -- (https://www.flickr.com/people/scott--/), on Flickr

I spent a lot of time trying to cut dovetails. I never seemed to gel with the saw, regardless of how much I wanted to like it. Always seemed to bind, and the cut seemed rough. I set the saw aside and stalled in my sawing learning curve.

Well, I'm in saw mode again. Picked up a Richardson Bros. 8" saw last year that's now filed 18 PPI rip. It's fantastic. Also picked up a 10" Richardson I'm rehabbing. It needs a new tote. Thought that, as a test drive on my tote skills (which have been dormant for all these years), I'd repair the original tote on the Atkins, and maybe see if the saw performed any better.

Now, horn repair isn't anything new to anyone here so I'll spare all the gore. Seemed like the original wood was beech; I ended up gluing on some 6/4 maple, bandsawed the rough shape of the horns, and shaped with rasps. Stained the maple with some strong tea to bring it close to the beech, then dyed the whole thing with TransTnit. Lacquered, rubbed out, and ended up like this:

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2860/13833529223_95a7385795_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/scott--/13833529223/)
Atkins back saw tote rehab (https://www.flickr.com/photos/scott--/13833529223/) by Scott -- (https://www.flickr.com/people/scott--/), on Flickr

The saw seems to perform better. Maybe (likely) my technique has evolved signicantly in the intervening years, but control is much better, and it doesn't seem to bind. I like the tote I made (though the edges aren't sculpted nearly enough), and part of me wants to take a rasp to it and fair the edges a bit more to see if that improves feel. The main difference I can see in the two is that the home made tote has the inside edge of the handle arched back much more significantly than the orgininal tote, which does a lot to change the feel of the saw and the positioning of the hand (hang?). Again, how much this affects things, versus my own ineptitude, I don't know. I'm liking the new/old tote, though, and I think it's time to move on to making a new tote for the Richardson.

I seem to be in tool rehab mode right now.

Scott

[John Upton]

So is "tote" saw speak for the handle ?

[David Weaver]

It's forum language for handle. I was talking to George once and he informed me that the only place he's ever seen that term used for a saw handle is online.

[george wilson]

I think tote only refers to plane handles,but I could be wrong. And,I'm getting too old to recall all this esoteric stuff anyway.:)

I would say the handle pictured at the top of this thread is interesting,but needs a lot more rounding off where the hand goes. Some proportions could change,too. Never the less,an interesting design,though.

[Mel Fulks]

I just checked the Oxford. George is right ,it's just the plane handle. Earliest cite is Moxon. TOTE used as word for "carry"
is a US coloquialism of unknown origin and a year earlier than the English handle.

[David Weaver]

I googled to see if there was any old text, etc, that used the word tote. Maybe there is, but when I used google and google books, only things meant to carry saws came up with "tote", and of course, in google's web search, gobs of forum references came up.

I'm as guilty as anyone else of using the word "tote" over and over.

[Mel Fulks]

Ox - Mox quote says the plane handles are also called "handles". For the US word they say the origin might be African American or American Indian....only way to know for sure is to keep watching old GUN SMOKE reruns.

[Scott M Perry]

I think tote only refers to plane handles,but I could be wrong. And,I'm getting too old to recall all this esoteric stuff anyway.:)

I would say the handle pictured at the top of this thread is interesting,but needs a lot more rounding off where the hand goes. Some proportions could change,too. Never the less,an interesting design,though.


Thanks, George. When I made the alternate handle, I was just basing it on pictures and what I thought looked comfortable and pleasing. No concept for any ergonomics. And, like I said, the edges aren't sculpted adequately. I have a Liogier rasp on order, and I'm tempted to play with the feel of the cherry handle, but I have a lot of small projects on the queue, and would like to get on to other real projects, too, so that will likely wait for another day.

As for the semantics, well, I'mma leave that alone. ;)

[David Weaver]

Thanks, George. When I made the alternate handle, I was just basing it on pictures and what I thought looked comfortable and pleasing. No concept for any ergonomics. And, like I said, the edges aren't sculpted adequately. I have a Liogier rasp on order, and I'm tempted to play with the feel of the cherry handle, but I have a lot of small projects on the queue, and would like to get on to other real projects, too, so that will likely wait for another day.

As for the semantics, well, I'mma leave that alone. ;)

Yeah, you're probably wondering why the "pants too tight" crowd dropped in and worried about a single word. We know what you're talking about, either way :)

[george wilson]

When I was young,we never carried lumber,we toted lumber!!:) We had to tote enough up a 300 yard hill to build a house.

[Cody Kemble]

I think "A tale of two totes..." sounds much nicer than, the usual, "New saw handle" anyway.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I could be wrong, but from the photos it appears you changed the hang angle of the saw "handle" and that might be at least part of why it feels and appears to cut better. Does anyone else agree that the hang angle is different between the photos?

[David Weaver]

If anything, if the top saw is rotated a little bit so the toothline is at the same angle as the saw in the bottom picture, the hang angle on the open handled saw might be a little higher. Even if it's just 5 degrees, there would be a difference in feel. It's hard to tell, though, since the handles are not quite the same shape.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I could be wrong, but from the photos it appears you changed the hang angle of the saw "handle" and that might be at least part of why it feels and appears to cut better. Does anyone else agree that the hang angle is different between the photos?

I was about to say the same thing! Did you use the original handle as a pattern for the new or was the replacement just something you tried? Also, in both pictures, at about 2/3's of the way to the heel, there appears to be a shiny spot, almost indicating a kink in the saw plate. Shows on the original replacement and also on the closed handle replacement. Finally, if you look at the toothline at the toe, on the first replacement handle, there appear some strange lines running with the toothline. Anyone have any opinions on these, that they may be giving fits in the use of the saw?

[Scott M Perry]

Tony, I used the original tote, er, handle as a pattern, kinda, then went rogue on it, so there's no gaurantee that anything lines up as it should. There's no kink in the plate, and came back from Tom Law (who I'm pretty sure knew what he was doing) with the bright places near the toothline. I'd always figured they brightness was from places he'd stoned it after setting the teeth, but I know nothing, really.

[Pat Barry]

Two comments / questions on the topic of the 1st handle you did:
1) comment - it seems to me that the thickness of the grip is less on the handle you made as compared to the original. It seems to me that this lack of thickness may result in a little less a sense on control when sawing. I thicker grip area (left to right as pictured) would result in more contact and a better feel for alignment. But, then again, it maybe matters more what fits your hand the best. - What do you notice here?
2) question - when making the handle, how do you make the saw blade slot and ensure it is perfectly lined up with the hanlde surfaces? Is this just marked/scribed and cut carefully with the same blade that gets attached? The fit up of the blade to the handle must be ultra important.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Tony, I used the original tote, er, handle as a pattern, kinda, then went rogue on it, so there's no gaurantee that anything lines up as it should. There's no kink in the plate, and came back from Tom Law (who I'm pretty sure knew what he was doing) with the bright places near the toothline. I'd always figured they brightness was from places he'd stoned it after setting the teeth, but I know nothing, really.

Tom sharpened many saws for me over the years and he was a good as it gets as a sawsmith! I think with a bit of experimentation with the hang, you'll get the saw to work better.

[Scott M Perry]

Two comments / questions on the topic of the 1st handle you did:
1) comment - it seems to me that the thickness of the grip is less on the handle you made as compared to the original. It seems to me that this lack of thickness may result in a little less a sense on control when sawing. I thicker grip area (left to right as pictured) would result in more contact and a better feel for alignment. But, then again, it maybe matters more what fits your hand the best. - What do you notice here?
2) question - when making the handle, how do you make the saw blade slot and ensure it is perfectly lined up with the hanlde surfaces? Is this just marked/scribed and cut carefully with the same blade that gets attached? The fit up of the blade to the handle must be ultra important.

Pat, if anything the replacement tote I made is thicker than the original, but I think they're pretty close. I need to post a photo of the two totes overlaid - I think the arc in the handle of the replacement screwed up the grip.

I carefully marked the centerline of the toe of the handle and cut with a dozuki, so it's a tight fit with the Atkins plate.

I did some more sawing yesterday with the saw as currently set up, and the results were very promising. As yet, no binding.

FWIW, for comparison, here's the original handle in as-found condition:
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3724/13620807604_11cd62898e_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/scott--/13620807604/)
Atkins Back Saw Tote (https://www.flickr.com/photos/scott--/13620807604/) by Scott -- (https://www.flickr.com/people/scott--/), on Flickr

Scott

[Jim Koepke]

2) question - when making the handle, how do you make the saw blade slot and ensure it is perfectly lined up with the hanlde surfaces? Is this just marked/scribed and cut carefully with the same blade that gets attached? The fit up of the blade to the handle must be ultra important.

It is important unless you like the blade to be loose in the handle. I have seen a few things online about making saw handles and used that information to make one. I will be making another handle soon. (Bought some parts from Ron Bontz including a kit to make a saw.)

Here is my post on my build that includes the method used to cut the blade's kerf in the handle.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180712-Back-Saw-Build

There are likely other ways to do this.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Here is my post on my build that includes the method used to cut the blade's kerf in the handle.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180712-Back-Saw-Build

jtk

I like that way. Very good idea, espcially for someone who is sawing challenged like me :)