Seeking Epilog vs Trotec Recommendation

[Jim Priest]

If you could obtain a low hour, 4 year old, 45W Trotec Speedy 300 or a 1 year old 60 W Epilog Mini 24 for similar money, which would you choose and why?

Initially contemplating embellishment of wooden items, i.e. placement of logo art on product surface or and/or personalizing pens, game calls, etc., or similar work.

[Kev Williams]

Given that they're both "Western" machines, for similar money I'd take the Epilog in a heartbeat, for the lesser age and more power. The "Ford vs Chevy" thing means nothing to me. I just want it to work...

[David Somers]

Jim,

Please take anything I say with a big grain of salt since I don't have the pleasure of owning a laser yet.

But, I would tend to agree with Kev on this and for the same reasons; a younger machine and higher power. That assumes the Epi wasn't being run extremely hard in its short life and the Trotec was actually owned by the fabled little old lady who only used it on Sundays. And both are in good condition. The Trotec does have a modestly larger worktable than the Epi. 29x17 vs 24x12 for the Epi. Their Z heights are the same, at least if you remove the table in the Epi. Both are 8 inches. Don't know if that has any bearing on your plans?

Having blathered without any actual experience to back it up I am now curious to hear what folks who actually have a clue think?

Dave

[Nick Mauer]

I'm a big fan of Trotec machines, but I'd probably have to agree with Kev. Younger and stronger wins for me.

Trotec has been fantastic on the customer support end for me, and I can vouch for their machines being of high build quality, and requiring very little maintenance. Replacement parts aren't cheap though, as a good deal of the parts are manufactured in Austria.

I've worked with Epilog lasers in school and a few other situations. I really can't say anything bad about them. For our application though, we needed a really big bed. Epilog didn't offer that, so they weren't a consideration for our purchase. They seem like great quality machines, built well, with intuitive drivers and great support.

[Scott Shepherd]

There are substantial differences in a Speedy 300 and a Epilog Mini. You're not comparing apples to apples. It's easy to say "this one" or "that one", but my answer is "it depends". Personally, I would never own another machine that didn't have a job control system or a programmable Z-Axis. The time it saves pays for itself many, many times over. The two work completely different, workflow wise. This isn't about looking at the finished product and being able to tell which one did what, because in the end, you won't be able to tell the difference in a duck call engraved on an Epilog vs. one engraved on a Trotec. It's about workflow and efficiency. If those things are important, then you might get one answer, if they aren't (in many cases they aren't because it's all 1 pieces jobs), then you might have another answer.

Quality wise, there is no comparison. The Speedy 300 in a monster and the Mini is, well, a mini. They are built completely different. In this case, it's not mechanically about comparing a ford to a chevy, it's about comparing a ford or chevy to a Ferrari. The build quality is THAT different. But not everyone needs a Ferrari. Like I said, at the end of the day, you can't tell which one engraved a piece, so it then becomes about features, workflow, and build quality.

[gary l roberts]

What he said!

[Jim Priest]

To all,

Thanks to all for the speedy and helpful responses. I was initially leaning toward the Trotec simply because of the numerous favorable comments on this forum, but....the Epilog is a higher power machine. I think I've read numerous posts here that it is wise to put the money in power, but Scott's (Steve) comments concerning workflow and programmable Z-Axis control make me realize I need to do a little more analysis of my requirements. I'm also planning to attend the ISA (Int'l Sign Makers Association) symposium in Orlando later this month. I recently chatted with a regional Trotec rep about the Speedy 100 and was quoted $13.7K for the 30W, $16.7 for the 40W and $20.7K for the 60.....Maybe I can work magic at the show...

Thanks again.

[David Somers]

Scott!

Thanks for that explanation. That helps a bunch from my end at least!

Dave

[Mike Null]

I have 7 year old Trotec Speedy 300 45 watt. One day of down time in 7 years to replace bearings. If not a Ferrari certainly a Mercedes.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I have no experience with either machine, but from a money stand point, if both are essentially the same money, the Trotec is a much wiser choice. A new Speedy 300 with a 60w tube I believe is around $25k at this point. A Mini24 with a 60W tube is I believe around $17k. So right there you have a difference of $8k in value. To upgrade a Trotec to a 60-80W tube would probably cost around $4000, so you're still up $4000 in value.

Also, I don't think you'll have much of an issue doing what you want with the 45W Trotec. The larger table will probably benefit you more than the 15W if you're looking to engrave. Remember, the Trotec is ~90% faster than the Epilog when rastering so the power may be lower, but the speed you'll engrave at will probably make production time very similar.

[David Somers]

Scott,

Since you have both a Speedy and a ULS in hand I am curious. On comparably powered machines, what is that would make a Speedy so much faster than its brethren?

And I am curious what the Job Control does that lends itself to added efficiency and workflow? When I looked at Trotec (through what they have on line) it looked like it gave you added control over your jobs, but also an added layer of control to deal with. Without seeing one in action compared to an Epi or a ULS I had never considered the job control as being any more than additional controls or granularity over your tasks. So now you have me curious what the advantage is for someone in a production environment like you?

Dave

[Bill Cunningham]

I'd kinda like To know the answer to Dave's question as well. If both are 60 watts for example, does not the. higher speed of the Trotec result in lower burn/cutting effect on the substrate?

[Scott Shepherd]

What makes it faster is the Trotec is using high speed servo motors and the Universal is using stepper motors. It's the "high speed" part of the servo that makes the difference. You could compare Epilog's servos to the Trotec and you'd see how much faster they are.

It comes down to build quality and component quality. For example, the Universal is using a 1/4" wide belt to drive the X and Y axis. The Trotec is using a 1" wide belt to drive the X and Y Axis. Why? Because their motors are so fast and have so much torque, it's required.

Honestly, you can't compare a Trotec build to an Epilog build. You can compare engraving results, but not build quality, in my opinion. Two different things. I'm not suggesting Epilog is bad by any means, I'm just saying that the two use a different engineering philosophy to build their machines. Where Epilog will take one end of a rail and let it float because it's variation in their parts and cabinet, the Trotec and Universal will be so precisely made that both ends are fixed and there is no floating to deal with tolerances stacking up as it's being built.

The topic of Job Control is one that would require more time than I have right now. The new Epilog Fusions are headed in that direction from what I have seen, so it's coming soon to a laser near you :) I don't think it'll be able to be used on previous generations of machines, but someone from Epilog might chime in and tell us different.

[Mike Null]

Bill

Your hypothesis is valid to a point. I have experienced the inability to use all the Trotec speed because my machine is 45 watts. What really matters is the material you are engraving. For some things I can engrave at near 100% speed but not many. On a number of items I must use 100 power and slow my speed down to get the desired result.

To your point, if 60 watts were required and would do the job on the Epilog at 100% speed then the Trotec would use 60 watts at at an estimated 60% speed.

The Trotec Speedy 300 series rasters at 140 ips. I believe the Epilog is at about 80 ips.

Now you know why I want the 80 watt model so badly.

[Ross Moshinsky]

140ips vs 80ips = 75% faster. 45W vs 60W = 25% less power. So it's conceivable that the Trotec will still be ~40-50% faster when engraving. The Trotec will be ~25% slower when cutting. These numbers are not perfect, but they give you an idea. When discussing build quality, I think there are only two relevant topics. Both machines are doing the same job. The main two questions are how much does it cost to run the machine per year/lifetime? Because of the way the machine is built/designed, does it effect my process (pass through doors or how the rotary is built would be two examples).

I won't even discuss the software as I do not have any real world experience with either.

[Mike Null]

Ross

If you haven't looked at the Trotec close up and then at Epilog and ULS or anybody else you won't realize the dramatic difference in build quality. It isn't even close. That build quality includes intelligent design and is the reason these machines run so long.

[Bill Cunningham]

So the higher speed of Trotec is really meaningless unless it's also equipped with the power to utilize it.. That sounds more like the real world now.. I was wondering how it was capable of bending the laws of physics.. I'm not disputing the superior build of the unit itself, I was just questioning how it could work faster with the same power.. Trotec is certainly on my short list when I replace my current machine.

[Scott Shepherd]

So the higher speed of Trotec is really meaningless unless it's also equipped with the power to utilize it.

That's true of all lasers. Depending on the substrate, if you can't run it at 100% speed, then you're not able to use it's power. That's typical with 45W or less on many machines. I know on our 45W Universal, we have to slow the machine down to get good engraving on various substrates. So it's really a function of power. The difference is that the speed is so fast on the Trotec that the power curve is in a different spot than it would be on a Universal or Epilog, if that makes sense.

If you want to see the value of a Trotec, get up above 60W and watch it work. Now, things like anodized aluminum, I'd think you could certainly run at 100% speed on the 45W. You can probably run Rowmark's at 100% speed as well, or close to it. It's for things like wood where you'd have to slow it down.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Ross

If you haven't looked at the Trotec close up and then at Epilog and ULS or anybody else you won't realize the dramatic difference in build quality. It isn't even close. That build quality includes intelligent design and is the reason these machines run so long.

I've looked at both machines more than once. My point still stands. If over a 10 year period a Trotec costs you $5000 to maintain and an Epilog costs you $2000, which is the better built machine? Elegance of design does not mean it's well designed. Also, if Trotec uses a strut on the hood that will last 50 years and the Epilog uses one that lasts 25 years, do I really care? Do I care if Trotec uses a higher grade steel or a better paint?

I care how much it costs to run the machine and if it makes my life easier/harder when it comes to build quality.


That's true of all lasers. Depending on the substrate, if you can't run it at 100% speed, then you're not able to use it's power. That's typical with 45W or less on many machines. I know on our 45W Universal, we have to slow the machine down to get good engraving on various substrates. So it's really a function of power. The difference is that the speed is so fast on the Trotec that the power curve is in a different spot than it would be on a Universal or Epilog, if that makes sense.

If you want to see the value of a Trotec, get up above 60W and watch it work. Now, things like anodized aluminum, I'd think you could certainly run at 100% speed on the 45W. You can probably run Rowmark's at 100% speed as well, or close to it. It's for things like wood where you'd have to slow it down.

It's all about dwell time of the laser beam. On my 30W laser I mark Rowmark/IPI at 100 speed and 100 power. So that's 30W at 80ips. A 45W is 50% more power so that means Rowmark should run at about 120ips or 85% speed. Now if upgraded to a 45W tube, I still couldn't go faster than 80ips on my laser so I would just run the power at 67pwr instead of 100pwr.

[Scott Shepherd]

I've looked at both machines more than once. My point still stands. If over a 10 year period a Trotec costs you $5000 to maintain and an Epilog costs you $2000, which is the better built machine? Elegance of design does not mean it's well designed. Also, if Trotec uses a strut on the hood that will last 50 years and the Epilog uses one that lasts 25 years, do I really care? Do I care if Trotec uses a higher grade steel or a better paint?

I don't think higher grades of steel or better paint have come up in this discussion. We're talking about real life quality of build issues that effect the long term maintenance and upkeep of the machine, as well as making it produce more work. If you believe that a $3000 or $5000 price difference in the machine isn't made up in productivity, then you're sadly mistaken. I'd drop $5000 more to have the productivity gains we get from it.

I think it's a good discussion to have, because if you really want to do ROI, then you'll probably not end up where you think you might. But, your mileage my vary. I hope everyone buys slower machines. It makes my job of selling a lot easier.


I care how much it costs to run the machine and if it makes my life easier/harder when it comes to build quality.

I do to, that's why we have a Trotec sitting here.



It's all about dwell time of the laser beam. On my 30W laser I mark Rowmark/IPI at 100 speed and 100 power. So that's 30W at 80ips. A 45W is 50% more power so that means Rowmark should run at about 120ips or 85% speed. Now if upgraded to a 45W tube, I still couldn't go faster than 80ips on my laser so I would just run the power at 67pwr instead of 100pwr.

I agree. It takes a certainly level of power and speed to remove the material. Anything more than that and you're not really achieving any real benefits.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I don't think higher grades of steel or better paint have come up in this discussion. We're talking about real life quality of build issues that effect the long term maintenance and upkeep of the machine, as well as making it produce more work. If you believe that a $3000 or $5000 price difference in the machine isn't made up in productivity, then you're sadly mistaken. I'd drop $5000 more to have the productivity gains we get from it.

I think it's a good discussion to have, because if you really want to do ROI, then you'll probably not end up where you think you might. But, your mileage my vary. I hope everyone buys slower machines. It makes my job of selling a lot easier.

I do to, that's why we have a Trotec sitting here.


When evaluating machinery I say there are three things to look at, which is what I said in my original post. You're latching on to something I responded to Mike about.

1. Performance
2. Quality of build
3. Ease of Use


As far as performance, we know the Trotec offers equal quality engraving at a higher speed.

As far as build quality, I can't say "it's built better because it can go faster". That's like saying a Corvette is built better than a Honda. Well, if you look at the performance side only (brakes, motor, transmission) then the Corvette is a clearly superior car. If you look at how well the car holds up to 100,000 miles of driving, the Honda may be considered the better built vehicle. The Trotec may be the better built machine, but I wouldn't say it's much better built than an Epilog or Universal.

Ease of use I will not comment on as I don't have first hand experience to do so.

You have to break down the separate points, evaluate them, then combine your findings to form an opinion. I just dismiss the notion that a Trotec is a better built machine, flat out. Universal and Epilog have a very good reputation. I've looked at all 3 machines and all were built at a high standard. I believe as sample size increases, number of issues will increase. In the last year, there have probably been more "Trotec problem" threads than the last 10 years. I wouldn't say that indicates the machines have gotten worse, would you?

[Mark Ross]

We have two 36 EXT's from Epilog. I cannot comment on the quality of the lower machines or their down time, but I can tell you the customer service from Epilog is nothing less than phenomenal.

[Scott Shepherd]

The Trotec may be the better built machine, but I wouldn't say it's much better built than an Epilog or Universal.

You have to break down the separate points, evaluate them, then combine your findings to form an opinion. I just dismiss the notion that a Trotec is a better built machine, flat out. Universal and Epilog have a very good reputation. I've looked at all 3 machines and all were built at a high standard. I believe as sample size increases, number of issues will increase. In the last year, there have probably been more "Trotec problem" threads than the last 10 years. I wouldn't say that indicates the machines have gotten worse, would you?

I would say it's FAR better built than Epilog or Universal. I built high speed machinery for a living. I know a good deal about building machines. The last 10 years of my career in manufacturing were spent in places that engineered and built equipment. I know the difference in making things right and making things cheap. If you don't see the difference in build quality in an Epilog versus a Trotec, you're looking in the wrong places. Since we've owned an Epilog, currently own a Universal and a Trotec, and my background is in machining and building machines, I can say without hesitation there are stark differences in all 3, no question.

An example, our Universal requires the belts, bearings, and pulleys to be replaced once a year. That's $500 every year. It's 6 years old now, so that's 4 or 5 sets, so that's $2,000 we've spent. After 2 1/2 years with the Trotec we've spent no money on belts, bearings, and pulleys. So that's $500 a year it's saving us. Well, there's no difference in build quality, you say. If there's no difference, then why does one require service and one doesn't? Simple, because one is engineered to a higher standard.

I think you have seen some Trotec issue threads, but if you'd like to play that game, we can read in the tea leaves and say do a search for Epilog issues, Universal issues, and Trotec issues and report back your findings. I think you'll find 1000's of posts about Epilog issues, and probably less than 100 for the Universal and Trotec. Using your logic, then Epilog must have a catastrophic issue they need to correct?

I've said it before, all 3 machines are good, all 3 are good quality, all 3 will produce good product. It's just what you need or want from the machine that helps decide which one to go with. Epilog is the perfect machine for some, Universal for others, and Trotec for others. I couldn't care less which one anyone buys. It's not my money and I don't get a penny when anyone buys any of them. But I do believe people should understand WHY they are different and WHAT'S different about them before they make their decisions. Saying they are all the same is simply untrue because they are not.

[Kev Williams]

Bill above mentioned "real world". That's important here.

If you're running a mass-production type shop where your laser will basically run non-stop, then a built-like-a-brick Trotec would be a very wise choice.

But if your 'real world' involves using the machine 5 or 6 hours a week, and you're not confined to .001" tolerances, then (and this is just MY opinion!!), why spend so much money? Yeah, a Ferrari will get you to the grocery store, but so will a Corolla, and you'll have plenty of money left over for other things!

As for longevitiy- My little 18x12 Optima (ULS) is a '96 model, 18 years old. I've had it for around 13 years. I've changed the lens head bearings once. Kept the old ones because the new ones didn't feel or act any different. I changed the laser tube about 4 years ago, just because. In retrospect, I probably wasted my money (but the new tube is noticeably more powerful). I bought a new stepper motor for it about 2 years ago, still don't need it. This machine runs at least 4 out of 7 days a week, with a 2 to 3 hour run-time each day that it runs. My Gravo LS900 is over 10 years old. I bought it new, but it was deeply discounted because it was the last year of the non-USB port driven machines. Lost the power supply in June of 2012 I think it was, I was overnighted a rebuilt for $1700. And the mirror on the shutter came off the shutter- that was a pain to fix, but it didn't cost anything, took about 3 hours of my time to figure out how to get at it and fix it. That's all the downtime I've suffered with that machine.

And then there's the real-world "bottom line". You want the machine to make more money than it costs to pay for it. I paid $5k for the ULS when I got it. It's paid for itself many times over. So has the LS900, although it took a bit longer! My best bang for the buck is the 1300x900 Chinese Triumph out in my garage. While it's capabilities are limited in some area's, it flat kills in others-- like plastic cutting, and anodized aluminum, wood and glass engraving. And it's sheer size is saving me time even though it's a "slow" machine. I paid less for it than I paid for the Optima. That machine's already paid for itself, almost twice over, and I only got it up and running 4 months ago.

Me, I'd really love a Trotec. I'd also love the new BIG New Hermes machine, 24x48", 156" per second speed-- but WAY out of my price range! So I buy what will work for me, as cheap as possible, and hope for the best! :)

[David Somers]

Kev,

I kind of fall into your category. Even though I understand the quality of a Trotec, and below that the ULS and Epi machines, in terms of $$ I am pretty sure I will be forced into a Chinese machine assuming my tests show me it will do what I want. The reasons are the initial cost, my desire for a deep Z clearance, and the fact it will be a supplemental tool for me, not a primary producer of revenue. If that changes I can re-evaluate and purchase an additional machine if that were needed. But at this stage of the game, based on what I envision, I can't see me spending the money on a Trotec, as lovely as that would be. Megamillions Lottery winnings not withstanding of course. <grin>

But...for Scott and Ross and everyone else who puts up with and spends time answering my endless questions, I do truly appreciate the time and effort you folks put into this. I don't ask these questions idly. I like to know as much as possible about what I am buying into and how it fits into the scheme of product lines, especially at these prices, and where my limits will be with it, and hopefully help me recognize when it does become prudent to buy up into the Western Machine lines. Plus I also figure I am asking for everyone else who is reading as well. I suspect many of us will follow a conversation, have questions, but not take the time to ask. So when I don't see someone pipe up I do. Like I said. I truly appreciate you folks and all the time and though you put into these answers and the back and forth that takes place as ideas and thoughts and facts are exchanged.

Dave

[Tim Bateson]

I agree the Trotec is a monster machine, but there is way too much unwarranted trashing of Epilog here.
#1 Bought my Epilog 2nd hand.
#2 The UPS driver pushed it off the back of the truck onto the street (never will get those years back I lost watching that happen)
#3 It's been a work-horse that literally produces $$$ for me.
#4 Tech support has been FANTASTIC!!! I didn't even buy it from them.
#5 Only issue in 7 years is a bad mother board & that was likely my own fault.

[Mike Null]

Tim

I just read the thread again and found no trashing of Epilog. To the contrary, I expect Epilog would be quite pleased with the remarks.

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree the Trotec is a monster machine, but there is way too much unwarranted trashing of Epilog here.
#1 Bought my Epilog 2nd hand.
#2 The UPS driver pushed it off the back of the truck onto the street (never will get those years back I lost watching that happen)
#3 It's been a work-horse that literally produces $$$ for me.
#4 Tech support has been FANTASTIC!!! I didn't even buy it from them.
#5 Only issue in 7 years is a bad mother board & that was likely my own fault.

Tim, if you got that from me, then there's a misunderstanding. I have repeatedly said they are good, quality machines and do a good job. However, I do dispute that an Epilog or Universal is in the same built quality as a Trotec.

It's like most anything else, your machine needs to fit your business and your budget. What fits anyone's business and budget might not fit my business and budget. I think you can go from a Chinese machine to a Trotec and everywhere in between and read a success story. However, anecdotal stories of success don't change real facts about run times and maintenance costs.

If you are referring to the comment about lots of posts about the Epilog issues, that wasn't meant as a knock on their quality, that was in reference to Ross saying that Trotec has had a number of posts lately about machine issues so that must mean that their quality isn't as good as some of us are saying. I merely used that comment as an example to carry that logic (flawed logic in my opinion) to Epilog. It wasn't meant as an accurate assessment of Epilog because I didn't think it was an accurate assessment of Trotec.

I think Epilog has the easiest to use machine on the market, hands down. They are built well and the new Fusions are built SOOOOO much better than the other models. The Fusion is a beast as well. Plus it's got a Job Control system as well. So they are moving in that direction rapidly. I don't think you could go wrong with an Epilog, Universal, or Trotec. It just comes down to workflow and features and I personally find systems with Job Control to be more suited to our production methods.

We are a job shop. We see something different every day. We need that flexibility and power of the Job Control systems to run things efficiently here. If we did nothing but make Trophy plates, then we might think differently, but we don't do that, so it fits our business, but it might not fit yours. I understand that.

We're all also different people as well. Some are artist, some are engineering types. I'm an engineering guy. I love features. I love to get into the heart of the power of the machines and figure out how to use them. I talk to people who have had machines for years and years and mention something you can do with it that they didn't know you could do. I'm always pushing deeper into how the machines can be used. Other people are artists and don't want to learn all that stuff. They have an idea, they want the idea to come out of the other end of the machine as easily as possible. So we have a lot of things to consider when buying a machine. Your business, your budget, your goal, your desire to learn software, etc. all play a role.

Only you know what fits you and I hope that's the point people take from my posts. I think it's unfair for anyone to be able to tell anyone else which machine would work best for them from an internet post from a stranger that hasn't told us anything about their needs, their budget, etc.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Only you know what fits you and I hope that's the point people take from my posts. I think it's unfair for anyone to be able to tell anyone else which machine would work best for them from an internet post from a stranger that hasn't told us anything about their needs, their budget, etc.

Scotty is pretty much spot on :)

None of the machines mentioned approach the speed of my Vytek galvo and any of them could be put in the Mitsubishi and cut up with ease, that doesn't make any of them bad or good machines...it just makes them different with different end user needs.

It's like recommending a car without knowing the users requirements/needs, a Honda Civic is a car, so is a Nissan GTR but both have very different end uses and properties.

There does seem to be a bias towards "when the only tool you have is a hammer, every job looks like a nail"

cheers

Dave

[Keith Outten]

I've been following this thread since it started. Most of you know that I own a Trotec Speedy 300 80 watt laser engraver but my first laser was an Epilog Legend 35 watt machine. In between the two I had a Chinese laser for a period of time so I have had some experience with a variety of laser engravers in my shop. When I ran the sign shop at Christopher Newport University we had a Xenetech XLT 60 watt laser and about one year before I left CNU we purchased a Trotec Speedy 300 75 watt machine.

I had problems with my Epilog laser twice, just after the warranty expired so I have experience working with Epilog Tech Support. Honestly Epilog had a good tech support program, they were quick to diagnose problems and got parts to me overnight so I could get back up and running. That was many years ago so my experience is way out of date concerning their support but I expect it hasn't changed. In all fairness I did have some issues with Epilog that left me a bit upset with their policies and I have shared my feelings about this subject here in the past so I won't drag the issues up again. Without giving away specific details I have been involved with a Member of this Community who had serious problems with an Epilog laser, he called me and asked me to help him. In the end we did convince Epilog to do the right thing and end a terrible nightmare that had been going on for six months.

When we purchased the Xenetech laser I spent months trying to get the company to correct a software problem that the technician who installed the machine found. They promised to fix their buggy software but never delivered on this promise so I would prefer to NEVER deal with Xenetech again. The problems were well documented here in a thread that the President of their company joined in the conversation, however once again he never fixed the problem. Since I left CNU I don't think the Xenetech laser has been turned on, nobody there knows how to get around the software problems and get the machine to work. Now its a $35,000.00 paperweight that just takes up valuable space.

My point is that no matter what machine you purchase there will most likely be problems to solve and sometimes even the big name companies will help you and sometimes they won't or if your lucky you can force them to do the right thing.

My experience with the Chinese laser was OK at first but things went downhill quick. Nuff said :)

After all of the problems and some success with other machines I can say without a doubt that I agree with Steve Shepherd concerning Trotec, both the company and the quality of their machines. My comments are based solely on the fact that I run a commercial business and I have to be reliable and more importantly on time. Your needs may very well be 180 degrees out from mine but that is why there are so many machines available to suit the needs of your hobby or your company.

[Bill George]

I agree the Trotec is a monster machine, but there is way too much unwarranted trashing of Epilog here.
#1 Bought my Epilog 2nd hand.
#2 The UPS driver pushed it off the back of the truck onto the street (never will get those years back I lost watching that happen)
#3 It's been a work-horse that literally produces $$$ for me.
#4 Tech support has been FANTASTIC!!! I didn't even buy it from them.
#5 Only issue in 7 years is a bad mother board & that was likely my own fault.

I watched our UPS driver roll, yes roll the box containing my new Miller welder end over end across the yard until I yelled at him to stop. He looked at me like, what's wrong??

[David Somers]

Keith,

Would you be willing to share the brand of Chinese laser you had a bad experience with in your shop?

Thanks!

Dave

[Keith Outten]

David,

I bought a Supernova laser that was a very unique design in that the upper portion of the cabinet could be set on a stand so you could engrave very large jobs underneath. Its not that it was a bad experience as much as a performance problem. The machine was so slow it was impossible to use it for sign work.

Engraving 6" by 8" ADA signs takes 4 minutes each on my Trotec. The Supernova took about 35 minutes to engrave one sign and I really disliked the software.
.

[David Somers]

Thanks Keith!!! Much appreciated!

Dave

[David Somers]

Keith,

You said a 6x8" ADA sign was taking 4minutes to engrave on your Trotec and the Supernova was 35 minutes?

Just to put that into perspective with the rest of the info in this thread, do you recall what the power was of the Trotect vs the Supernova? I assume this was/is the Trotec Speedy 300 80 watt you mentioned a few posts earlier?

This has been a pretty interesting thread to follow! <grin>

Dave

[Keith Outten]

David,

My numbers engraving Corian ADA signs are based on an average of literally thousands of door signs. Most have been engraved either by the Xenetech or the Trotec.

Trotec Speedy 300 80 watt = 4 minutes per sign.
Xenetech XLT 60 watt = 12 minutes per sign.
Epilog Legend 35 watt = 25 minutes per sign.
Supernova 80 watt = 35 minutes per sign.

The Trotec Speedy 300 75 watt machine at CNU = 5 minutes per sign.

In every case the laser engravers were run at 100% power and the speed was adjusted to obtain an engraving depth of 0.034"
.

[Scott Shepherd]

That's EXACTLY why we have a Trotec.

[David Somers]

Sigh,

I wish I weren't such a gear head. If I continue to lurk on the forum for a few more years and eat mostly Ramen I can probably do an S300. It would make a heck of a serious hobby machine wouldn't it????? <grin>

Seriously though! All the numbers help a bunch with perspective. That 80watt Supernova time was pretty amazing! Yow!! Much appreciated Keith and Scott!

Now where DID I put that lottery ticket? Hmmmmmm.

Dave

Ethernet. (N) What you use to catch the Etherbunny.

[Morris Mac]

I would borrow a power meter and test both laser sources make sure they still put out the design wattage. Now 45 watt laser tube on Trotec is made by Coherent which are very good laser sources as far as Epilog, laser sources I think are made in house. If your jobs are most engraving you will gain productivity with Trotec, if you need power to cut your answer is Epilog, you can cut with Trotec at lower speed and several passes. I would check condition on both machines, Trotec is out of warranty, Epilog i think still is,
see if warranty transfers ?

[Jerome Stanek]

David,

My numbers engraving Corian ADA signs are based on an average of literally thousands of door signs. Most have been engraved either by the Xenetech or the Trotec.

Trotec Speedy 300 80 watt = 4 minutes per sign.
Xenetech XLT 60 watt = 12 minutes per sign.
Epilog Legend 35 watt = 25 minutes per sign.
Supernova 80 watt = 35 minutes per sign.

The Trotec Speedy 300 75 watt machine at CNU = 5 minutes per sign.

In every case the laser engravers were run at 100% power and the speed was adjusted to obtain an engraving depth of 0.034"
.

I see that the times went down when the power went up. How fast will the Trotec be at 45% power. that would be about the same power as the Epilog

[Keith Outten]

Its true that more power generally means less engraving time but you need to consider speed and acceleration as well. The Trotec Speedy 300 model machines that I have used both had 5g acceleration which doesn't seem like a big deal but it adds up over the course of an eight hour day. Note that the 35 watt Epilog engraved ADA door signs faster than the 80 watt Supernova (aplaser). I can't explain this issue but I expect it was simply due to a very slow engraving speed.

A similar case may be possible if you test the lower powered Trotec against the Epilog that the OP is considering. Once you factor in the engraving speed and acceleration of the Trotec the engraving time of the two machines may be very close. When vector cutting this probably isn't true, machines with more power generally are both faster and will cut thicker material.
.

[Dan Hintz]

I see that the times went down when the power went up. How fast will the Trotec be at 45% power. that would be about the same power as the Epilog


Epilog Legend 35 watt = 25 minutes per sign.
Supernova 80 watt = 35 minutes per sign.

Ouch on that 35 min/sign... I'm guessing the Supernova wasn't run at 100% power like the others? With the Nova moving so much slower, even with a reduced perceived power an 80W DC tube still has to be cranking out much more power than a 35W RF tube.

[Keith Outten]

Dan,

The Supernova was run at 100% power the same as all of the other machines. Obviously I suspected that the power the tube was delivering was not 80 watts but it was a brand new machine and I didn't have a means of testing the power level. Heck I was convinced that it wasn't worth the time to check the power so it had to go out the door ASAP.
.