Do they still make "Hammer" equipment?

[Jeff A. Smith]

Is there a web site for Hammer equipment?

I was looking at jointer/planers.

I know of:

Knapp
Laguna
MiniMax
Rojek

Am I missing anyone here? (Other than Felder/Hammer, for whom I can find no web site in the US).

Thanks!
Jeff

[Chris Padilla]

Yes, Felder makes Hammer...you find them on the same website as Felder equipment.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Yep, Hammer is still available. Their new line of tools has new colours (red and grey instead of blue).
Websites:
Hammer (http://www.hammerusa.com/)
Format4 (http://www.format-4.com/)
Felder (http://www.felderusa.com/)

As you probably already know, there are Felder and Minimax groups on yahoo. Both of them offer a great amount of information that might be interesting for you.

Hope this helps,

Christian

[Dev Emch]

This depends on what your looking for. Without a doubt, the finest jointer ever made and currently being made is the Martin T-54. This is a pro level jointer and its price will turn you white!

For the middle of the road machines, you cannot beat Felder. But felder has a few lines including but not limited to hammer.

My favorate US made jointers are the oliver 166 and the Porter 300. I currently run both a 24 inch Oliver 166 and a 20 inch Porter 300. These are available only on the used market as both companies no longer make these. My Porter was made in 1961 and I would only sell it if I were upgrading to a Martin.

Another middle line machine that is also very good is the Panhans which is also out of Europe. I would venture to say that Panhans is actually better than Felder. They have thier own website but you will have to go through Eric Riebling out of New York state to buy Panhans.

Another machine worth consideration would be the English Wadkin. Wadkin has made some very nice machines and have compared as the English Oliver.

Best of luck in your quest...

[Frank O'Malley]

Jeff,

You have already gotten some good responses. The Euro combo machines are a big step up in quality and features over the traditional American style machines.

Regarding the JP’s you mentioned I would rank them as follows:

<O:p</O:p
Knapp & Felder
Mini Max & Hammer
Rojek
Robland

Of course there are other JP’s out there but you typically have to go to a 20” JP. That is where Pan Hans, Hofman and Felder/Format would compete.

Dev,

You have good taste, but you forgot to mention the Northfield. It easily rivals the Martin in quality and price. But all of these machines are stand alone and not combos.

Jeff,

All of these high end stand alone machines are out reach for even most pro shops.

Frank

[Ted Shrader]

Frank -

Welcome to the Creek. A great place to hang out and exchange ideas.

Ted

[Steve Wargo]

What about the Griggio Machines? They are supposed to be top notch, and the planer portion under load only porduces 83dB of noise. That's the quietest I've read about.

[Gil Cabrera]

Hello. I mostly just lurk on these forums but remembered something when I saw this post. My brother-in-law is a buyer for an electronics company and travels to China a lot. They took him to a plant (don't remember exactly where...) and he took some pictures because he knows I'm into woodworking machines. He said that the manager of the plant told him that they build machines for lots of companies and that they just started exporting to one in western europe. I didn't put 2+2 together until somebody else here said that hammer machines are grey and red now.

[Chris Padilla]

Cool pics, Gil!

[Jeff A. Smith]

Hello. I mostly just lurk on these forums but remembered something when I saw this post. My brother-in-law is a buyer for an electronics company and travels to China a lot. They took him to a plant (don't remember exactly where...) and he took some pictures because he knows I'm into woodworking machines. He said that the manager of the plant told him that they build machines for lots of companies and that they just started exporting to one in western europe. I didn't put 2+2 together until somebody else here said that hammer machines are grey and red now.

I asked the guy specifically at Felder/Hammer if Hammer was made by Felder, and he said "yes." Then I asked, "They're made BY them, not FOR them, right?" To which he also replied "yes."

This was Friday on the phone.

Now... Technically, I guess if you say that Felder's manufacturing facility is a shop in China, then the guy's not really lying... But clearly, that's NOT the same place they make the Felder equipment unless Austria has had a severe problem with Chinese immigrants. So it would appear that they're handing out very misleading information at least.

I guess they figure no one would pay return shipping on a 1600 lb jointer/planer just because it was labeled "Made in China." I will be more specific with Monday's questions -- "What is the country of manufacture for these JPs?" I wouldn't rule one out if it were made in China, but I would hate to know I was dealing with a company that covered that information up. Maybe it's just been a misunderstanding???

I just wish for once when these companies began to manufacture something at 1/3 the cost, they lowered the price as well. That never seems to be the case.

Thanks for posting that information!!!

Jeff Smith
Athens, AL

[Nick Mitchell]

This is interesting. I'll be interested in what you find out.

[Bill Neely]

Hi Jeff, Please post the result of your conversation with the Hammer people. It'll be really interesting to see what they say about country of origin because if it is Taiwan, it's only a matter of time before the same tooling begins to show up under some different labels. (at a reduced price)

I requested a brochure and price list via email a few months back; the literature arrived but no PL. A fellow called me a week or so later with a sales pitch and I again asked for a price list......they're 'in between repricing the tooling' but ok, he'll send one. Got another brochure last week but no pl. They must be getting these guys from the used car lots.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi folks,

I don’t know where Hammer is being made but I’d be interested in the results of the discussion with Felder. Honestly, if the quality were right would not mind buying a Taiwan or China made Hammer although I’d prefer one made in Austria.
One of the pic looks like if the jointer bed has to be flipped away in two steps when changing from jointing to planing. As far as I know, the older Hammer jointer/planers were constructed differently: The complete jointer bad was flipped over at once.
Is that correct?

Regards,

Christian

[John Renzetti]

Hi, I've been to the factory and have seen the Hammer machines right on the assembly line with the Felder and the Format line.
A few months ago there was a review of a 12" Hammer j/p in the British Furniture and Cabinetmaking Magazine. This Hammer was very basic and was selling for a low price. It didn't have the name designation as the Hammer A3-31. It is called the SP3. I'm looking at a picture of it now in the April 2005 issue of Furniture and Cabinetmaking. The fences and a couple of other things are different on it from the A3-31 that is being imported into the USA.
Interesting enough, this possibly made in China Hammer got the Best Buy nod from the editors of the magazine. They compared it to the Sedgwick, Rojek, MM and a couple of others.
I do have to add that I'm suspicious of the intent of the posting. The poster just joined last night.
Nice hit and run.
take care,
John

[Jamie Buxton]

Hello. I mostly just lurk on these forums but remembered something when I saw this post. My brother-in-law is a buyer for an electronics company and travels to China a lot. They took him to a plant (don't remember exactly where...) and he took some pictures because he knows I'm into woodworking machines. He said that the manager of the plant told him that they build machines for lots of companies and that they just started exporting to one in western europe. I didn't put 2+2 together until somebody else here said that hammer machines are grey and red now.

Interesting. The second pic does appear to be a Hammer A3-31. The third and forth pics could contain anything, but the tables in the forth pic are not the same design as those on the A3-31. The final pic is not a Hammer. The yellow paint color is wrong, the switchbox is in the wrong place, and there's belts and pulleys on the front which don't exist on the Hammers. However, it is clearly an over/under European-style jointer-planer, which as far as I know has previously been produced only in Europe.

[Timo Christ]

I agree the second pic could be a A3-31, or a good copy. The paint job doesn't match the Hammer 2005/2006 Katalog (no vertical red steel sheet). Hmm. maybe this machine was bought to reverse engineer it.. The jointer bed flipping mech. is like in the current model (Christian, this feature was changed recently).
FWIW, the Hammer catalog clearly states 100% made in Austria on the first page.

The blue/yellow machines look a lot like the popular 10" J/P sold here by many importers (Holzmann, Bela, Bernardo) but it seems to have longer tables. I'm planning to get that machine. I am surprised that it isn't sold in the US, but so far i haven't seen US labels on it.. Maybe because the combo machines aren't as popular as here.

[Jeff A. Smith]

Interesting. The seconds pic does appear to be a Hammer A3-31. The second and third pics could contain anything, but the tables in the third pic are not the same design as those on the A3-31. The final pic is not a Hammer. The yellow paint color is wrong, the switchbox is in the wrong place, and there's belts and pulleys on the front which don't exist on the Hammers. However, it is clearly an over/under European-style jointer-planer, which as far as I know has previously been produced only in Europe.

You're right, the pictures don't prove that Hammer is misleading anyone. Thus far, I have the Hammer/Felder salesperson's word (as of Friday) that the specific machine I am interested in (the 16" JP) is manufactured at the Felder plant in Austria. These pictures seem to indicate that they may have other manufacturing initiatives as well, but maybe as John Renzetti points out, under different model numbers, and perhaps with design changes.

Let's wait for clarification from Hammer/Felder before drawing a lot of conclusions on this matter. I will be in contact with them on Monday, and will post whatever information I acquire.

I'd be curious to know who that light gray with some blue and a yellow dust port does belong to, though. It'd just be my luck to spend close to $6k on a big JP and then have a barrage of similarly designed Chinese imports come in with a $3.5k price range. Aaarrrgh!

Jeff Smith
Athens, AL

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hello. I mostly just lurk on these forums but remembered something when I saw this post. My brother-in-law is a buyer for an electronics company and travels to China a lot. They took him to a plant (don't remember exactly where...) and he took some pictures because he knows I'm into woodworking machines. He said that the manager of the plant told him that they build machines for lots of companies and that they just started exporting to one in western europe. I didn't put 2+2 together until somebody else here said that hammer machines are grey and red now.

Now lets see you never post before and now suddenly mysteriously join and post. So what company do you work for?? :confused: If Felder does do this and they do not tell their customers then shame on them but I must say this one is hard to believe. You friend, assuming and American, is let in to a Chinese factory and allowed to just snap away a couple of pictures!?? Oh and he just so happened to have his camera on him too! Now whats to say that the Chinese were not copying the machine in the first picture? They are known to do that. Am I to truly believe that all of those pictures are from the same place anyway?

The internet is a great place to gather information and discuss topics/hobbies/interests/whatever with people and it is also a great place to create rumors and slander people and companies.

[Mike Wilkins]

Had to chime in here. The machines in the last photo look very similar to the machine that just entered my shop. I purchased the 12" jointer/planer from Andreou Machinery out of New Jersey; with the exception of the blue paint, the machines in this pic are exactly like my machine.
I was not sure of the origin of this machine; but I have the brochure from Rojek/Techmark, and there are more similarities that lead me to believe that they came from the same factory. Just a color switch.
The company is listed on the world wide web; found it under the woodweb site. I know it is not a Felder or Laguna, but for now it fit my budget. When I figure out this picture posting thing, I will do a review.
Mike in Eastern NC dreaming of a 20" Felder.

[Bob Borzelleri]

Hi, I've been to the factory and have seen the Hammer machines right on the assembly line with the Felder and the Format line.
A few months ago there was a review of a 12" Hammer j/p in the British Furniture and Cabinetmaking Magazine. This Hammer was very basic and was selling for a low price. It didn't have the name designation as the Hammer A3-31. It is called the SP3. I'm looking at a picture of it now in the April 2005 issue of Furniture and Cabinetmaking. The fences and a couple of other things are different on it from the A3-31 that is being imported into the USA.
Interesting enough, this possibly made in China Hammer got the Best Buy nod from the editors of the magazine. They compared it to the Sedgwick, Rojek, MM and a couple of others.
I do have to add that I'm suspicious of the intent of the posting. The poster just joined last night.
Nice hit and run.
take care,
John

I just spoke to the regional operations manager at Felder. He was quite interested in this thread and the assertion that the Hammers were made in China. He is currently seeking to confirm their understanding that all Hammers are made at the Felder plant in Austria. Might take a call to Austria so I wouldn't expect to get a call back until tomorrow.

Oddly enough, being made in China (Taiwan), in and of itself, might not mean much unless the outsource shop cannot build to the same specifications as the Austria factory, but the real issue for me is that quality control is typically better supervised at home.

...Bob

[Jeff A. Smith]

I spoke with Jeff Doubet (pronounced doo-bay') at Hammer in Delaware.

The castings for the Hammer equipment are produced in China by a contractor to Felder, and shipped to Austria where the bearings, switches, and motors are installed.

If you were producing the castings in China, I guess it'd make sense to have a finished machine there as a reference, hence the one photo of the finished one, and multiple photos of the bare, unpainted castings. There's no explanation of the other white, blue, and yellow machines, but there's no doubt that a casting producer in China would likely be making castings for multiple sources.

That's the definitive answer, I do believe. Now... I didn't ask him if the Felder castings were made there as well -- I'd bet not... hence the higher price and the need for two distinct brands.

Jeff Smith
Athens, AL

[Chris Padilla]

Well, Jeff, that kinda puts a nice bow on this! :) China has sucked up practically all the metal in the world so....;)

[John Renzetti]

Hi, This was posted today on the Felder Group in reference to the Hammer machines. The author is Wolfgang Geiger of Felder in Austria.

Dear Foggers,

I want to clear up a couple of things that have been put forward at the FOG lately about where HAMMER machines are being produced.

Since the introduction of HAMMER in 1997 several competitors alleged that HAMMER machines are build in the Czech Republic, Bulgarian and lately also in China.
It is true that not all components are produced at our factory. For example we had to close down our foundry in 2000 because it was too small for the volume we needed and we did not have any space left to expand. However more than 95% of the components of the HAMMER range are being produced and assembled at our factory in Hall in Tyrol, Austria. And most importantly, all machines have to pass through our quality control. I have posted some picture in the Photos section that show the assembly of the HAMMER machines at our factory in Austria.

We also reserve the right to outsource HAMMER components globally in order to offer the best value possible. This was the case with the limited edition models SP3. We have outsourced several components to a well respected supplier in China. However the finals assembly and the production of the most critical components (fences, electrics, gear drives, knife system, …) was done at our factory in Austria. The outsourcing of these components allowed us to offer the SP3 at a greatly reduced price. The limited edition model SP3 was based on the construction of the A3-31 with some changes and new additions. Also we were testing the market with the new HAMMER colors.
Since then we have introduced the new HAMMER range in the new colors and other new technical features like a new sliding table, new fences and improved saw and shaper units. Due to the success of the SP3 we continue to use several outsourced components on the new A3-31. This allows us to offer the A3-31 at a bargain price. The rest of the HAMMER line continues to be manufactured entirely in Austria.

If any customer still has doubts about the HAMMER range being produced besides the FELDER and Format-4 machine at our factory in Hall in Tyrol we would like to welcome him/her to see our factory with his/her own eyes.

Best Regards
Wolfgang Geiger
Product Manager, FELDER Group

From this it looks like the SP3 which is not imported into the USA had the most outsourced parts, while they have a few on the 12" j/p the A3-31.
Hope this info helps.
take care,
John

[Jeff A. Smith]

Hi, This was posted today on the Felder Group in reference to the Hammer machines. The author is Wolfgang Geiger of Felder in Austria.

Dear Foggers,

I want to clear up a couple of things that have been put forward at the FOG lately about where HAMMER machines are being produced.

Since the introduction of HAMMER in 1997 several competitors alleged that HAMMER machines are build in the Czech Republic, Bulgarian and lately also in China.
It is true that not all components are produced at our factory. For example we had to close down our foundry in 2000 because it was too small for the volume we needed and we did not have any space left to expand. However more than 95% of the components of the HAMMER range are being produced and assembled at our factory in Hall in Tyrol, Austria. And most importantly, all machines have to pass through our quality control. I have posted some picture in the Photos section that show the assembly of the HAMMER machines at our factory in Austria.

We also reserve the right to outsource HAMMER components globally in order to offer the best value possible. This was the case with the limited edition models SP3. We have outsourced several components to a well respected supplier in China. However the finals assembly and the production of the most critical components (fences, electrics, gear drives, knife system, …) was done at our factory in Austria. The outsourcing of these components allowed us to offer the SP3 at a greatly reduced price. The limited edition model SP3 was based on the construction of the A3-31 with some changes and new additions. Also we were testing the market with the new HAMMER colors.
Since then we have introduced the new HAMMER range in the new colors and other new technical features like a new sliding table, new fences and improved saw and shaper units. Due to the success of the SP3 we continue to use several outsourced components on the new A3-31. This allows us to offer the A3-31 at a bargain price. The rest of the HAMMER line continues to be manufactured entirely in Austria.

If any customer still has doubts about the HAMMER range being produced besides the FELDER and Format-4 machine at our factory in Hall in Tyrol we would like to welcome him/her to see our factory with his/her own eyes.

Best Regards
Wolfgang Geiger
Product Manager, FELDER Group

From this it looks like the SP3 which is not imported into the USA had the most outsourced parts, while they have a few on the 12" j/p the A3-31.
Hope this info helps.
take care,
John

The guy in Delaware who says that as of today he and one other person in North America are designated as "Hammer Specialists" (I guess he's saying they're the main Point of Contacts for this equipment now) tells me the castings are made in China, and then the Product Manager for Felder says only the limited production SP3 and SOME parts on the A3-31 are outsourced. I don't think I will be able to discern where these things are made before buying one -- or if it even matters. I still read Mr. Geiger's message as saying their foundry is closed, and "over 95%" could mean that the casting for a JP is 2-3 BIG parts and that all the bearings, motors, switches, washers, nuts, bolts, belts, and casters are added in Austria. I give up, plus, it probably doesn't matter where the castings are made as long as someone checks/rejects properly.

Jeff Smith
Athens, AL

[Chris Padilla]

It's a global economy! :) 'Nuff said! ;)

[Bob Borzelleri]

The guy in Delaware who says that as of today he and one other person in North America are designated as "Hammer Specialists" (I guess he's saying they're the main Point of Contacts for this equipment now) tells me the castings are made in China, and then the Product Manager for Felder says only the limited production SP3 and SOME parts on the A3-31 are outsourced. I don't think I will be able to discern where these things are made before buying one -- or if it even matters. I still read Mr. Geiger's message as saying their foundry is closed, and "over 95%" could mean that the casting for a JP is 2-3 BIG parts and that all the bearings, motors, switches, washers, nuts, bolts, belts, and casters are added in Austria. I give up, plus, it probably doesn't matter where the castings are made as long as someone checks/rejects properly.

Jeff Smith
Athens, AL

I had a return call from Felder/Hammer today. I also received a few photos showing Hammer tools in production in Austria.

For what it's worth, I got into this topic when I found a Felder brochure (circa 1996) in my desk. It reminded me of my visit to the West Sacramento showroom back then and I wondered what was new with them. I have been interested in a saw/shaper combo and the Hammer B3 caught my eye.

From my conversation with the Hammer rep, I understand that the only Felder/Hammer tool that has Chinese castings is the A3-31. All the rest are cast in Europe. Some castings are outsourced to a Swiss foundry, but those are for tools other than the A3-31. From what I have heard about Swiss casting quality, I doubt that Felder saves any money by this particular outsource.

The reason for outsourcing to China appears pretty straightforward; Hammer wants to make a high end performing tool without the full high end price. When I asked about off site quality control, the Hammer rep replied that they do their own post production QA/QC when the castings arrive in Austria and they must pass the same casting standard as those produced by the Swiss and in Austria.

Felder/Hammer seems rightly concerned that the facts behind their production process have been unclear, at best. Hopefully, the combination of the Felder/Hammer letter and the personal explanations to those of us who have raised the question to Felder/Hammer directly will set the record straight.

Here are the photos and , if it works, a copy of the letter mentioned earlier.

...Bob

[lou sansone]

interesting thread.. I do not own any hammer or felder equipment so I really am neutral on all of this. Most of you know that I perfer older cast iron beasts, although I do have an Italian 24" planer that is very well made.

From the evidence presented I would have to conclude that a good portion of these machines are indeed produced in china ( I know that some posters are claiming that this is all some sneaky trick of the compitition - I don't buy it ) . Having the sales force admit ( when pressed with photos ) that some parts are made there is really a pretty open admission to what the photos are showing.
the last post showing machines being assemble is not the same as being "produced". All those guys were doing was bolting on some electrical boxes and doing some QA. There was no machining going on that I could see.

Does it matter? It might. We have purchased some china made metal working tools and they really are pretty poorly made compared to the american counterparts. I guess those who use the felder and hammer machines will have to be the advertising agency.
lou