Robust AB vs Powermatic 3520B

[Charles levan]

I'm doing my research to move up to a big lathe. I think that the Powermatic 3520b will do everything that I need but I have a passion for quality and the Robust American Beauty has a few features that are nice and the overall quality seems to be exceptional. But the price is slightly more than twice as much as the PM. One of my concerns is that the company is the long term availability of parts and service. This is a small company and I would like this lathe to be useable for at least another generation. I expect the there are so many PM3520's in use today that you will never have to worry about keeping it running 20 years down the line. Anybody have any inputs on this decision? Your help would be appreciated.

[Tim Rinehart]

Charles, if you can swing the price on the AB, go for it. I was faced with that decision a couple years ago, and I opted for the 3520b. I've been happy with the 3520b, but would have liked the adjustable lathe height on the AB for sure, and the extra couple issues swing is certainly a factor along with HP. A better comparison feature for feature would be the PM4224 to the AB...and now the price difference (little though there may be from relative terms) makes the AB a clear winner in my opinion at that price point.
I would be less concerned about the issue with parts, though it's a valid one. I mean c'mon, the Delta 46-460 released about 5 years ago with big fanfare and lots of sales...can't get a replacement on-off switch for one at last check!!
I would think, and a call to Brent at AB would confirm this, that their electronic parts are largely off-the-shelf items that aren't proprietary in design. Bearings are likely standard items, though high quality variants, and the only other thing that could wear out is the spindle...and that's not likely with good care.

[John Keeton]

I don't nor haven't owned either, but I have spent a great deal of time looking at them and talking with Brent. You are talking about apples and oranges in a comparison, but that isn't really your concern as you seem to recognize the differences.

It seems that strange things happen in the world of mergers and acquisitions as evidenced by the sale of Delta a few times and the reputation and supposed dependability of the Delta 46-460 turning from gold to tarnished brass.

My guess, and that is all anyone could do here, is that there is as much a likelihood that Robust would be acquired by a larger entity at some point, as there is that the PM will retain its support from the same company.

That said, you acknowledge the PM would fill your needs. Since you seem to be comfortable with the long term stability with the PM, and since that seems to be the main issue in your final decision, it would seem the PM would be the right choice.

Edit - it took so long to type my response on my phone that Tim expressed some identical thoughts before I could post! Interesting!! Tim, you should be concerned that some of your thought are similar to mine. ��

[Jim Seyfried]

A more equal comparison would be Robust AB vs Powermatic 4224B. I think the Sweet 16 would be a closer comparison to the 3520B. I have a 3520B and think it is a great machine, especially compared to my 30 year-old tube lathe. However, when I bought it I didn't realize they were not made in the US anymore. If I could have a do-over I would get the AB and wouldn't worry at all of them being in business 20 years down the line.


Apparently I type even slower than John does on his phone. :)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Charles,

I have turned on a Robust AB after I bought a PM3520B.

There is no comparison in fit and finish. The Robust is a Cadillac and the PM3520B is a Chevrolet. Now retired, professionally for over 40 years I was paid to nitpick details on everything from radar used to land aircraft in bad weather to MR and CT scanners, repair and maintain those equipments. I appreciate quality and try to buy the best quality I can afford and justify. I suspect, based on what I saw and experienced on the Robust, it will last longer before needing bearings replaced and the materials used will allow it to be easier to maintain over the long haul. The Robust AB is a great machine! The PM3520B is a good machine and a lot of bang for the buck.

That being said, I could not justify the additional thousands of dollars in my mind. If I was a professional turner, I might have a different opinion. Besides, when I turned on the Robust, I had already purchased a PM3520B. I am sure my mustard machine will do everything I need.

[Reed Gray]

I turned on a 3520A for about 8 years before I got my Beauty. Reasons for stepping up: More horse power, 3 compared to 2. Made in America. Adjustable legs. Longer bed, even though now there are good bed extensions for the PM. Yes, the comparable lathe for the Beauty would be the newer PM4224 lathe. Not a whole lot of difference in cost. Beauty for me. I do have a Liberty as well, and it is a great 16 inch lathe.

One thing I was looking for when I bought my Beauty was some thing like my Dad would build. His business was founded in 1952, and is running stronger than ever. Two things set them apart from their competition. One is practical design, where they actually talk to those who will use the machine before they design and build. The other is employee pride in what they make. You can't buy that type of effort. They have to know that they are appreciated, and what they make is the best. It shows if you really look into the details.

robo hippy

[Jeffrey J Smith]

Charles - There isn't much to add to what's been expressed above, but if, as you say in your original post, you do have a passion for quality, your decision is a lot easier. There really isn't a comparison between the two - the PM 4224 is as close as PM comes, and the price difference is not that great.

Having turned on both (full disclosure, I'm an AB owner) there is little comparison. If you haven't already, turn on both before deciding. Brent helped me find one reasonably close that the owner allowed me to demo - twice. The folks at Robust are great to deal with and will help anyway they can. But if you're even remotely considering the Robust, get some time on one before parting with a pile of cash. I'm betting you won't regret it either way you go.

[Brian Ashton]

I suspect any parts that may wear out or fail such as: bearings or inverter. Are easily replaceable even if the lathe manufacturer goes boobs up. If something else breaks like a tool rest I'd suspect you can get or put together an alternative replacement.

If I had to chose between the PM and the AB there'd be no choice I'd take the AB. I've had the Oneway for about 14 years and the AB is a step up from it. Square tube bed, sliding headstock, SS bed ways, adjustable legs, that spinning thingy at the end of the ways...

[Dennis Nagle]

THis is a good point. The AB cost twice as much as the 3520. Both good lathes though. Look at what turners turned out in the 60s with just face plates and Delta lathes.


A more equal comparison would be Robust AB vs Powermatic 4224B. I think the Sweet 16 would be a closer comparison to the 3520B. I have a 3520B and think it is a great machine, especially compared to my 30 year-old tube lathe. However, when I bought it I didn't realize they were not made in the US anymore. If I could have a do-over I would get the AB and wouldn't worry at all of them being in business 20 years down the line.


Apparently I type even slower than John does on his phone. :)

[Alan Trout]

First I am a biased AB owner. There is just nothing better out there with its versatility and company support. Get the AB it is a better lathe and it sounds like your really want one anyway. Don't worry about future parts as the wear items are all common industrial items that will be able to be found without issue if something were to ever happen.

[Dennis Nagle]

To support Alan's point about spare parts. My lathe was designed in 1919 and mine was built in 1956. All the parts that wore out over time (58 years of steady use in one location and used every day) I was able to buy off the shelve and everything I wanted to have that Oliver made that I couldn't get anymore, I made my self. The AB does not weigh 4008lbs like mine, but it will work just as hard and long as mine. Now here is the kicker....so will the Powermatic!!! I think it is a matter of personal choice and money.

[Dale Bonertz]

Charles I respect the fact that you are investigating what you really need in a machine prior to buying one based on what and how you turn. I also think it wise to consider long term. I have been going through this process for over eight months now and decided for what and how I turn the best choice is the Vicmarc VL300. I am not asking you to consider this lathe I am simply stating that I went through the process and my conclusion based on durability and concerns with my turning style. You mention that the PM3520 will do everything you need it to do so with that in mind I would suggest you purchase that machine. The left over money will purchase a lot of tools, classes, accessories and etc. for a better turning experience. As you have heard so many times the next tool will make me a better turner which we all know is not true. You can also apply this to a lathe, the more expensive one will not make you any better of a turner than the other more reasonable lathe but the classes, extra tools and accessories will help make you more efficient and possibly a better turner (especially the classes). Most everyone thinks there lathe is the best out there or the best bang for the buck. Go with what makes sense with your turning style and what you turn and stay away form the me to club of Robust owners, Powermatic owners, Vicmarc owners or etc. Make a choice that best suits you not others.

[Charles levan]

Thanks for all of the input. It helps to clarify the thought process. I will be visiting a turner with an AB near my home this week to get a closer look at the AB. I know I can find a PM near home to try.
The next issue will be moving either of these down a small hill around the back of my house and up 6 steps into my basement shop.

[Reed Gray]

Well, my Beauty came on a pallet completely assembled. That would involve several friends, or some one with a small tractor to tow it down, then you have to get it up the stairs. The PM, I think comes in a box and not assembled. The headstock is pretty awkward to handle as it doesn't balance well on anything. If you are a brute, you can get the legs up the stairs, but would need a few friends to get the bed up the stairs. Going down hill is easy..... Hope you have good brakes.

robo hippy

[terry mccammon]

The AB normally comes completely assembled on a pallet, however you can ask to have it shipped disassembled. I picked mine up at the plant in Wisconsin and after approval, they disassembled, put it in the back of a Yukon and I drove it home. Then four of us carried the parts down the yard, down the basement stairs and re-assembled.

[Brian Tymchak]

Charles, I didn't see anyone mention this so in case you aren't aware. Walter Meier Tools was recently acquired by a private equity firm (Tenex). Link to more info (http://www.tenexcm.com/pr/tenex-acquires-walter-meir-ag-tools.html). Since you voiced concern for the future of Robust, I thought it could be relevant info. Being fairly recent, I don't think enough time has passed for any of us to know how that deal will impact PM. But IMO, mergers/acquisitions usually bring change of some sort.

[Charles levan]

Thanks Brian, that could me a lot of this ranging from these companies are great investments as is or they are in some kind of trouble and need "restructuring." That could be really bad if the firm has no understanding of these tools.
Charlie

[John Sanford]

Vicmarc? Talk to Christiane and Jeri at Woodworker's Emporium, they will hook you up. While you're at it, ask them about the turner they met in Morocco.

On a related note, for those who speak of "matching your turning style", illuminate for me what differences in turning style would apply vis a vis the AB and PM3520/

[Dale Bonertz]

John,
Turning style and what people turn are easy to understand once thought put into it. There are those that turn nothing but boxes, hollow forms, bowls, urns and etc. Some turn out of balance pieces, purchased rounds that are mostly balanced, small pieces - big pieces of wood. Some use carbide tools only and some use scrapers and yet others gouges and others captured hollowing tools and others hand hollowing tools. This is a small sampling of the different turning styles and and what people turn. So why spend twice as much money for a lathe if don't need the extra 1hp or weight or swing or etc. Why buy a sliding head stock if for what you turn a fixed head stock will work best for your turning style. Extra money would be better spent on tools, safety, classes and etc. It seems so common that everyone thinks that everyone else turns like they do which is so not true. I hope this helps in understanding what I am trying to say. In my case I rough turn over a 1000 bowls blanks every year and core them therefore a fixed head stock is mandatory for me. 3hp is mandatory for me and cast iron is preferred and a thicker bed than 1/2" is preferred. There is a lot of stress put on a lathe when turning like this so one should buy a machine that can handle that turning style and no not all machines will handle it. In closing understanding what and how you turn is more important than buying more of a machine than needed or less of a machine that is needed.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

John: I've read with interest some of the replies here - and my opinion is that you should buy the machine you think will fill all of your needs. I've only been turning for 8 years now, and don't really fall into any category. I want to be able to do just about anything I want with my equipment. I don't rough and core 1000 blanks a year - probably only 10% of that on average. But I do throw odd, off balance chunks of wood on from time to time, I turn boxes if I feel like it and the wood calls for it, platters at 24" in diameter, bowls as big as I can get them (for some reason I've got a few people that actually like very large fruit bowls. A while back I even turned a few bottle stoppers and a pen just to say I did.
When I core, it's nice to get the tailstock out of the way quickly, and even better to be at the end of the bed with the headstock slid down towards the end.
3hp doesn't add up to much when doing stoppers or pens, but it sure helps when coring. Being able to push the tailstock out of the way with one hand (and
get it back with one hand comes in handy when you're hitting the age where medicare is kicking in).
It's the niceties you come to appreciate over time and make the tool more valuable to you as a turner. It also allows you to explore all the options, within reason.
There are going to be those who swear by cast iron for damping vibration, and those who look at weldments as a better way to accomplish the same goal. One isn't necessarily better than the other - just different.

I've said it earlier - get some turning time on the candidates you've narrowed down. What fits one guy doesn't fit them all. For the kind of investment you're contemplating, a couple gallons of gas and a few hours of your time will pay off over time.
It's a lot like buying shoes - get what fits best - you'll be the one wearing them.

[Dale Bonertz]

Well said Jeffery, exactly what I am saying. Try them out and buy what fits the best. It is like buying a pair of shoes. Sometimes they fit the same though, so why spend twice as much as the other pair unless you have more money than sense. It is also like buying a pickup. If you know what you need it for and the F150 will work for you why buy a F250 for 50% to 100% more. We can all say that someday I may want to turn this or that but odds are if you haven't by now you won't, that is if you are an experienced turner. Besides the two lathes he mentioned will both handle the occasional larger item. The finish and tolerances are nicer on the AB though.

[Charles levan]

Just a follow up, I bought the AB. It is a joy to use and am not looking back. I still think the 3520b might be the best value, but the the AB has features that make it a luxury.

[Bill Boehme]

Charles, I didn't see anyone mention this so in case you aren't aware. Walter Meier Tools was recently acquired by a private equity firm (Tenex). Link to more info (http://www.tenexcm.com/pr/tenex-acquires-walter-meir-ag-tools.html). Since you voiced concern for the future of Robust, I thought it could be relevant info. Being fairly recent, I don't think enough time has passed for any of us to know how that deal will impact PM. But IMO, mergers/acquisitions usually bring change of some sort.

I would be concerned that they were acquired by a private equity firm. Generally, the goal of a private equity firm is to make lots of money fast for its investors. This is sometimes accomplished to the detriment of the businesses that they acquire. Here is a link to About Tenex (http://www.tenexcm.com/).

[Ryan Mooney]

Congrats on the new lathe Charles! Pretty sweet piece of equipment.

[robert baccus]

Just like buying wine---screwtop or cork or a bag&tube you hang from the boom. How thirsty, how rich and how pretty is the girl.

[Bill Boehme]

You will love using the Robust. I roll mine outdoors on pretty days such as this:

http://www.pbase.com/bill_boehme/image/152119269/original.jpg