Floored By The Price Of Drum Sanders

[Mike Shields]

I've finally been given the go ahead by my MIL to redo a large, framed wedding picture she gave as a gift. I have some absolutely beautiful, straight grained, 4/4 orangish African Paduak that will be 2.5 in wide. I'll be inlaying (slightly proud) with profiles, curly maple that has amazing grain pattern in a very small width. I cut the maple so it will be book matched.

The problem: with my current tools, I can't fully dimension the maple without tearout. No worries! I'll buy a drum sander that is just the tool for this job: then I see the prices...YIKES!

An open ended single drum (16"-ish) is the same price as my 14" bandsaw, and half the price of my new 10" tablesaw. And then, the reviews for that same sander are not even all that positive.

What the heck is is going on the tool market? Are these tools really that specialized to allow this kind of pricing, because I just don't see what can justify the high price of a motor and a big sheet of sandpaper?

So now I'll go back to just staring at the wood of (another) unfinished dream project.

Thanks for allowing me to vent.

[Loren Woirhaye]

There are other ways to accomplish the work, hand planes in particular. Drum sanders bring a host of aggravations with them anyway.

Getting optimal results in woodworking inevitable involves a lot of trial and error. It can be a frustrating craft to ascend in, but people have done it before you without power tools and you can follow their methods. Sharpening plane irons and tuning of chipbreakers are particularly useful skills.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I love my Performax drum sander. Yes, pricey, but at least it is a 1 trick pony.

It does work for inlays. I build ukuleles, I have inlays sanded prefectly flat to the soundboards and have no chipout or tearout. And the inlay wood is perfect. Did I mention it's flat to the board? Hard wood inlays and a soft spruce soundboard. That's a challenge. I think it's the only tool that will do that. Well, a wide belt will too, but you want some sticker shock?

[John Piwaron]

A possible option is to rent time on one. Perhaps there is a cabinet shop near you that would let you use theirs. Or, like me, maybe your lumber supplier offers this kind of service. At my lumber supplier I can get boards crosscut, ripped to width or planed. And sanded. They have a 35 inch thickness sander. Yay.

Given the size you say you want to sand (2.5") there's a small drum sander available from Jet. It's model 628900. It's a 10-20 sander. Priced around $750 or so. Maybe a little more depending on your choice of supplier. This is the one I'd be likely to get if I felt I had a strong need for one.

[John Bomment]

Maybe keep your eye out for a used one.
I got mine used at a yard sale,needed some fixing up ,in the end I have $250 into it.
Absolutely love it,wish I had gotten one years ago.

[John TenEyck]

+1 for getting a used one. Hobbiest woodworkers sell them all the time, for whatever reason. I bought a Delta 18 x 36 for $500 that was as good as new. My newbie woodworker friend just bought one as well for the same price. I love the thing and can do things now that were either very difficult or required way too much time. I just finished dimensioning some birdseye maple shop sawn veneer with it. I can't imagine trying to do that with a hand plane. Well, yes, I can.

As a hobbiest, there's no good reason to buy new.

John

[Peter Quinn]

I'm only surprised that you are surprised. My drum sander was more expensive than almost every other tool in the shop save the bigger shaper and 20" bandsaw. Large precision head, precision table, rigid frame, two motors, it's at least as complicated to manufacture well as a planer and more so IMO than either a TS or BS. The only one I've heard was really bad was the old delta open ended. I like the performax models, it's not the ultimate sanding experience , but it works well within its capacity and is very accurate. Most of the bad reviews Ive read seem to come from from people thAt don't know how to use them or whose lack of experience guides them towards misguided expectations regarding speed and depth of pass. You could get a wood master and have 3 trick pony, but most machine sanders are indeed one trick ponys. Maybe a spiral head planer would help but they don't go down to veneer thickness, pretty useless below a 1/4".

[glenn bradley]

I agree that these do not seem to hold their value and used prices can be quite attractive. As mentioned this is not a tool that can be "just OK". Like a jointer or a planer (or others) it has to do its job correctly and consistently or it is pretty much a waste of time and space. I went for a new Supermax 19-38 and have not been sorry. If I were to do it again I would cough up the extra for an oscillating drum.

The price is painful and renting is certainly something I would look into if this tool will not be integral to your woodworking going forward. A bedded sander that is reliable and repeatable is quite a benefit to me. I didn't bother with the DRO (although I have them on other tools) as the variance in abrasives makes them rather superfluous for anything requiring a reasonable accuracy IMHO. The footprint on these things is huge. I tried to buy it without the stand but, that was not an option so I built a mobile drawer unit that, while generous, is still smaller than the actual footprint of the machine. I use it to store the bulk of my abrasives, for the machine and otherwise.

286983

[Bruce Page]

Buying used can save you quite a bit of money. I picked up my like-new Woodmaster for less than 50% of Woodmaster's sale price.

[Julian Tracy]

For such a small width, seems like you can accomplish the task with a spindle sander with a custom fence setup. You caould even use a sanding drum on a drill press with said fence to allow the stock to pass thru until your inlay was flush with the surface of the surrounding wood.

As an alternative, that's narrow enough to where you could prepare the body wood a bit thicker, set your inlay in a bit proud and run the combined stock through the table saw and hand sand the resulting composite for finishing.

I could be mis-reading the goal of the op though...

JT

[Julian Tracy]

To the OP's point of hig-priced machinery these days, I too was thinking the same thing as I browsed my local dealer and was thinking why would anyone buy ANYTHING new? I mean, $900-1200 for a 14" bandsaw??! $800-1000 for a 6" jointer??!

Fit and finish on most of these new tools, even the "good" brands is horrible. The new Powermatic 14" bandsaw I looked at seemed very lightly built and flimsy - certainly nothing I'd spend $1000+ on. The new Steel City jointers, aside from having tacky looking stands, were a few steps down in the fit and finish than the Jet right next to it. That was a surprise as the Steel City deluxe 14" bandsaw from a few years back I own now is quite impressive in most respects and has the feel of a company trying to produce a quality tool at the given price.

Picking up Steel Citiy's latest catalog though seems to indicate they're now chasing at the low-buck, low-value market and have even introduced a Blue-line that's even cheaper and probably no better than any of the Porter Cable branded woodworker's tools that Lowes is hawking, which themselves are an embarrassment to witness.

I don't think there's a single tool I'd buy new these days. That certainly does not relegate me to restoring tools either, there's plenty of late model great deals on CL that require no more tweaking than a new tool would require in un-boxing and setting up. Tablesaws maybe, as riving knives have only now become a base feature of newer saws...

Even those darn 10-20 sanders are about $800 new!

JT

[Mark Andrew]

Well I'll speak up in defense of them. I've got a Jet 22-44 ODS. Yes, it was pricey. But it saves so much time, and also makes usable wood out of what I'd previously have thrown away or burned.

If for some reason I had to sell my machines, and in the future build a new shop, a drum sander would be high on the list. I think I'd look at a Woodmaster though, and get a planer/molder built in.

It's a classic case of price vs value to me.

[Craig Behnke]

i don't fully understand how a US company hasn't competed in the high quality machine segment (quality like mini max, felder, hammer, agazzani, etc). european labor costs are extremely high and shipping to the US is an additional cost. how on earth has a US manufacturer not competed in the current market for high quality tools? I know unit volumes would be extremely low, but if the europeans can still make decent profits doing it, why can't a US company do the same? just a rant.

[Mark Andrew]

If you count Delta, they're making Unisaws in South Carolina. They seem to get good reviews.

Although they're Chinese owned.

[johnny means]

How much do you fellas think stuff should cost? I'm reminded of some of my wives elderly clients who would be shocked when they saw the price of a hamburger. They seemed to have warped back into the forties and thought a nickel was enough for a meal.

[Julian Tracy]

My reference is to how much you can buy great tools for on the used market, in terms of why would you buy new.

For instance, drill presses, why would you buy one new? All over the place at $200 and below to compete with the $5-600 new models, and especially drill presses, older= better. But even more than that, for $350-600 used, you can find presses that would cost thousands to buy new. Like buying a motor home or quad or boat...

But I guess some folks like that new car smell... Me - I like the smell of used stuff.

JT

[Peter Quinn]

i don't fully understand how a US company hasn't competed in the high quality machine segment (quality like mini max, felder, hammer, agazzani, etc). european labor costs are extremely high and shipping to the US is an additional cost. how on earth has a US manufacturer not competed in the current market for high quality tools? I know unit volumes would be extremely low, but if the europeans can still make decent profits doing it, why can't a US company do the same? just a rant.


Europe is far more advanced than we in the USA regarding safety requirements on wood working machines, which pretty much sets the minimum cost bar pretty high. So lock out tag outs, blade brakes, riving knives, proper guards, serious shapers, etc. And the population density makes space quite expensive, thus the space saving combos popularity. Thats the PC diplomatic version,,,,the other version, we are bunch of libertarian cow boys who value personal freedom, like the freedom to buy antiquated designed chinese junk on a get er done basis and trade our personal safety for a few thousand dollars, while Europe is a nanny state where they specify just how long and wide your drool bib must be at a restaurant and protect you from almost any other dangerous aspects of life. Just imagine what you could accomplish if you could stop worrying about your personal safety because somebody else had done that for you! None of these comments are based on provable facts, and if they are its strictly a coincidence, but its a story I feel comfortable with. I'd be curious to know what percentage of total sales in the high end consumer/small shop (i.e. Minimax, Felder, Royjek, etc.) business the US market represents? I've wondered myself why nobody is doing it here? US woodworking manufacturers are either above or below that level, but no real parallels.

On a more serious note I've heard it told that because EU rules regarding worker safety are quite strict, the machinery is made to a much higher level than much of what is allowed here in the US at small commercial shops. They were forced to retrofit old machines, obsolete things which could not meet new rules, and strongly encouraged to go with newer safer models. Not sure EU actually requires the same level of safety in consumer equipment, but if you pay people to work for you it has to meet stringent safety requirements and that drives the whole market. Here we can't even agree that not cutting off your hand is a good thing and has societal value. Liassez faire means more of us can afford wood working but no manufacturers can afford to sell high end combos, because they would struggle to establish a foot hold in Europe and the domestic market will primarily go with the cheap stuff anyway. They make what sells.

[Art Mann]

My reference is to how much you can buy great tools for on the used market, in terms of why would you buy new.

For instance, drill presses, why would you buy one new? All over the place at $200 and below to compete with the $5-600 new models, and especially drill presses, older= better. But even more than that, for $350-600 used, you can find presses that would cost thousands to buy new. Like buying a motor home or quad or boat...

But I guess some folks like that new car smell... Me - I like the smell of used stuff.

JT

You are going on the assumption that good quality used tools are readily available on the used market throughout the United States. That is an incorrect assumption.

[John Piwaron]

To the OP's point of hig-priced machinery these days, I too was thinking the same thing as I browsed my local dealer and was thinking why would anyone buy ANYTHING new? I mean, $900-1200 for a 14" bandsaw??! $800-1000 for a 6" jointer??!

Fit and finish on most of these new tools, even the "good" brands is horrible. The new Powermatic 14" bandsaw I looked at seemed very lightly built and flimsy - certainly nothing I'd spend $1000+ on. The new Steel City jointers, aside from having tacky looking stands, were a few steps down in the fit and finish than the Jet right next to it. That was a surprise as the Steel City deluxe 14" bandsaw from a few years back I own now is quite impressive in most respects and has the feel of a company trying to produce a quality tool at the given price.

Picking up Steel Citiy's latest catalog though seems to indicate they're now chasing at the low-buck, low-value market and have even introduced a Blue-line that's even cheaper and probably no better than any of the Porter Cable branded woodworker's tools that Lowes is hawking, which themselves are an embarrassment to witness.

I don't think there's a single tool I'd buy new these days. That certainly does not relegate me to restoring tools either, there's plenty of late model great deals on CL that require no more tweaking than a new tool would require in un-boxing and setting up. Tablesaws maybe, as riving knives have only now become a base feature of newer saws...

Even those darn 10-20 sanders are about $800 new!

JT

Even Festool? When I got their big router, the OF2200, it was almost a revelation. So *this* is how a router should be. Wow.

[Jim Andrew]

I bought the tiny open end Grizzly wide belt sander, as I had experience with a Speedsander by Timesavers. And there were no drum sanders for sale here. After I ordered the Griz, there was an auction with a 16-32 sander on it. I went to the sale and it brought 400$. Kind of wished I could cancel the purchase of the Griz, but really there is no comparison. As to the Euro machines, if you go to a pro cabinet manufacturer, almost all their machines are European, and it has been that way for a long time, as the American companies do not compete in that market. The first time I took a tour of a cabinet mfg. co, I thought this is a machine shop, not a woodworking shop.

[Chris Padilla]

I picked up a used Delta 18/36 that I found on Craigslist for $500 about 5-6 years ago. I dunno what they go for new but it's just one of those many items that can help certain jobs in woodworking go much much easier than other ways. Sometimes slicing/cutting shavings from wood using sharp metal just doesn't quite work as well as we hoped. Going to an abrasive way to "slice/cut" wood is an alternative that can work. I like cutting my own veneers from chunks of wood on my bandsaw. I've found the best way to prepare those veneers for use is to slowly (painfully slow) drum sand them down to the thickness (thinness?) that I want. It was a slow and mind-numbingly boring process but the results were fantastic and I had myself several 1/16" walnut veneers/sheets to use for my project. I was able to "expand" a pricey, precious chunk of walnut and get enough yield to build exactly what I wanted. Most folks who glance at the tansu I built don't realize that it is mostly MDF...it looks like solid walnut. :) Anyway, keep searching...eBay...craigslist...for sale ads. What you want is out that and at a price to fit your budget.

[Charles Coolidge]

Buy used drum sanders are one of those machines you can pick up in mint condition used at very reasonable prices.

[Robert Parent]

If you think a tool or anything else is expensive today, just wait and see what is going to happen to prices in the near future... All of the printing of worthless dollars by the Feds will drive prices much higher in the coming months. If you haven noticed, just find a tool catalog from say a year back and compare to current prices.

If you are close to a larger city the used market will likely yield a good tool at a easier to handle price.

Robert

[Jim Andrew]

Robert, if you want to see what will happen to prices of new equipment, go check out new John Deere farm equipment. It has already happened.

[Dave Zellers]

I'm not going to argue with a Parent.

I'm going on a tool spree! Awesome!

I agree completely and see it all around- it's happening to liquor now too


at least that's what I hear the guys saying...

[Roderick Gentry]

You are going on the assumption that good quality used tools are readily available on the used market throughout the United States. That is an incorrect assumption.

You may be right, but up here in Canada it's like living in Paraguay. We have nothing compared to you. My idea of next day delivery, is a month or two. A few times I pulled the trigger on stuff in the US, more than a day's drive, only to find it on craigslist up here. I just had to sit myself down and tell myself, that it will all come up for sale here eventually, second hand. So while maybe there is some place in the middle of Alaska, with no tools, I am not sure I buy that for most of the lower 48. And if you do live there, where is the wood coming from, and the lifestyle to import all you needs for an expensive hobby like this can be, buying new.

That said, you pay for second hand in other ways. So for me the main thing is whether the thing I need is better in old iron, which is often the case in metal working tools, and rarely the case in woodworking tools. An old Inca saw, has some points, but overall new tools have the features people want. Where are the old open ended drum sanders that sand down to lutherie thicknesses. I don't want a 1937 electric drill, they hadn't invented pneumatic nailer back then. But several of my old metal working lathes are from 1937, as it happens. They are great.

[Roderick Gentry]

How much do you fellas think stuff should cost? I'm reminded of some of my wives elderly clients who would be shocked when they saw the price of a hamburger. They seemed to have warped back into the forties and thought a nickel was enough for a meal.

I take your point. I do think we are at a consolidation phase where the tool prices are climbing back up. Maybe they ate the competition and now the cheap places, like Grizzly, are the new expensive places. Still back around 1980, the prejudice against Asian tools was controlling, and there weren't any small planers one could get by on like the Ryobi. A 13" General cost 2K, and today that would be 6000, so it is still the golden age I guess.

[Bill Huber]

When I got my drum sander (Jet 10-20) I could not believe the price but I needed it, I could not find a used one in my area. I had an 18" wide walnut panel that was not flat so I got the sander.

At the time I thought I was nuts for getting it but now that I have it I would not give it up, I use it all the time. So I guess the bottom line is if you are going to keep doing woodworking and can come up with the money, go for it.

Now that I bought a new one I see there is one in the area (Jet 10-20) for $400, now that's the way it goes with me.

[Chris Fournier]

Expensive in this context is really one person's perspective so for the OP a drum sander is expensive. In my opinion, there are cheap tools that are expensive out there and costly tools that are truly cheap. Value is what it's all about.

I imported a drum sander into Canada from the US over 20 years ago and it was expensive to me back then. It has paid for itself many times over. If I were not an instrument builder and a professional WWr (for years, not currently) then this machine would not have been good value to me as it is it has been great value.

Truthfully this is a machine that most guys think that they need and in the end they realise that they could have used another method and that the drum sander doesn't work the way they thought that it would - for sale cheap, hardly used drum sander!

[Charles Coolidge]

Update: I saw a Performax Supermax 25x2 5HP on our local craigslist yesterday, it looks well taken care of but the guy wants $2,500 and told everyone not to waste his time low balling. Said he paid $4,600 for it. Okay but why would I buy his used as-is no warranty who knows what abuse its taken sander for $2,500 when I could buy this Grizzly with a warranty brand new for $500 less?

287144

287145

[David Kumm]

You are assuming the comparison is apples to apples. A 4500 machine is generally built differently than a 2500 machine. Machines are not like cars. If well built they hold up better than mediocre new. The Performax was and is a good machine. The drums are well turned and the AL drums and thin belt conveyor make it particularly well suited to calibrating thin stock. The price might be a tad high but if the condition is good it is still a better deal than new. Warranties on machines are only valuable if the machine needs help. I've got stuff from the 1920s and 30s that is still better than most new. Really depends on what you start with. I run Widebelts now but had both a 25x2 and a 37x2 and once you understand the quirks of a drum sander, the performax is as good as any and better than most. Dave

[Chris Fournier]

Update: I saw a Performax Supermax 25x2 5HP on our local craigslist yesterday, it looks well taken care of but the guy wants $2,500 and told everyone not to waste his time low balling. Said he paid $4,600 for it. Okay but why would I buy his used as-is no warranty who knows what abuse its taken sander for $2,500 when I could buy this Grizzly with a warranty brand new for $500 less?

287144

287145

Again, think value. Again, ask yourself if made in America might be better than made in China. Those who like to find good used machines are greatful to for guys like you right now! The nice thing is that we all get to make choices.

Years ago when I was shopping for a drum sander I looked at the "Grizzly" whatever that you are referring to from China. At the time it cost every penny that the Performax did but when viewed in person it was clear that it was junk. My Performax is working flawlwssly to this day.

I'd take a used General 350 over a new Grizzly 10" cabinet saw as well...

[Charles Coolidge]

Again, think value. Again, ask yourself if made in America might be better than made in China. Those who like to find good used machines are greatful to for guys like you right now! The nice thing is that we all get to make choices.

Years ago when I was shopping for a drum sander I looked at the "Grizzly" whatever that you are referring to from China. At the time it cost every penny that the Performax did but when viewed in person it was clear that it was junk. My Performax is working flawlwssly to this day.

I'd take a used General 350 over a new Grizzly 10" cabinet saw as well...

Years ago that's the key, the flaw in your logic is thinking time stands still. Grizzly has been getting better each year how do you know the current Grizzly isn't better than the old Performax? Meanwhile I see they are making some of the Supermax in Taiwan now.

[Don Huffer]

I've finally been given the go ahead by my MIL to redo a large, framed wedding picture she gave as a gift. I have some absolutely beautiful, straight grained, 4/4 orangish African Paduak that will be 2.5 in wide. I'll be inlaying (slightly proud) with profiles, curly maple that has amazing grain pattern in a very small width. I cut the maple so it will be book matched.

The problem: with my current tools, I can't fully dimension the maple without tearout. No worries! I'll buy a drum sander that is just the tool for this job: then I see the prices...YIKES!

An open ended single drum (16"-ish) is the same price as my 14" bandsaw, and half the price of my new 10" tablesaw. And then, the reviews for that same sander are not even all that positive.

What the heck is is going on the tool market? Are these tools really that specialized to allow this kind of pricing, because I just don't see what can justify the high price of a motor and a big sheet of sandpaper?

So now I'll go back to just staring at the wood of (another) unfinished dream project.

Thanks for allowing me to vent.

Mike
I would like to encourage you to learn to use a hand plane and cabinet scraper. The work you described warrants such tools and as it sounds so does your pocket book.

I bought the second offering of the Proformax drum sander. Thought it was going to really save me from all my surfacing problems. I hated it as soon as the thought of how much I paid for it wore off. I also learned how to use a cabinet scraper. Thats when my surfacing went to a higher level and now the sander is collecting dust.

[Chris Fournier]

Again, think value. Again, ask yourself if made in America might be better than made in China. Those who like to find good used machines are greatful to for guys like you right now! The nice thing is that we all get to make choices.

Years ago when I was shopping for a drum sander I looked at the "Grizzly" whatever that you are referring to from China. At the time it cost every penny that the Performax did but when viewed in person it was clear that it was junk. My Performax is working flawlwssly to this day.

I'd take a used General 350 over a new Grizzly 10" cabinet saw as well...

You should buy the Grizzly and stand behind your words. Let us know how that works out for you. The Grizzly of today is no better than the machine I looked at 20 years ago, I've seen them both today. I personally wouldn't put any of my money down on one.

[Charles Coolidge]

You should buy the Grizzly and stand behind your words. Let us know how that works out for you. The Grizzly of today is no better than the machine I looked at 20 years ago, I've seen them both today. I personally wouldn't put any of my money down on one.

I have 6 shiny new Grizzly machines they all work fine. My G0696X 12" 5HP table saw crushes any 10" saw on the market today and for less money. So there you have it.

[Albert Lee]

I have put down an order for the complete set of lip lock ducting system(only serving 2 machines) for my workshop(27'x18') today, cost me $2000USD. Pretty sure it wasn't this expensive 10 years ago...

[Chris Fournier]

I have 6 shiny new Grizzly machines they all work fine. My G0696X 12" 5HP table saw crushes any 10" saw on the market today and for less money. So there you have it.

You've put your money where your mouth is! I can respect that.

[Bob Falk]

I have a Performax 16-32 I'll sell if you are nearby. Works great. $550 pickup in Madison, Wisconsin.

[kenneth fleming]

Buy used and the biggest motor that you can....don't feel that you have to have a 2 head as a larger motor with one head is better than a smaller motor with 2 heads.

[mreza Salav]

I don't know about Grizzly but I have a 37x2 Supermax drum sander with a big Made in U.S.A tag in front of it and it is disappointing to say the least.
My previous drum sander which I made myself was better than this in many aspects. I won't go into details....

[Paul McGaha]

I have a Delta 18/36 I was lucky enough to buy from a creeker.

I'm happy with it. It's actually US made.

Just my opinion but I do think tools like this were designed for hobbyist use.

I hope mine continues to run with no problems considering what I've read about trying to get replacement parts for tools from Delta these days.

PHM

[Rich Riddle]

It seems like this thread derailed into the ever ubiquitous buy American rant.

There is a club in Denver that allows you to use their tools for a membership fee. They have both automotive and woodworking tools and list a "belt sander" on the list. That will suit you needs for the project. The tools availability can be found here though they don't list all the tools they have, just large ones:

http://www.clubworkshop.com/index.php/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22&Itemid=34

Here is the main link:

http://www.clubworkshop.com

If you don't want to do that, look into your local Denver woodworking club to see if one of the members in that club will allow you to use a drum sander for your project. We have members in the Cincinnati club who allow others to use their sanders.

These sanders do prove expensive for what the offer. I own the Jet (Performax) model and find it lacking but adequate for its infrequent use.

[David Kumm]

There is a sweet looking 25x2 on Woodweb. I see they are now made in Taiwan and sell new for about 2800. Might be worth a look. I'd check the motor in particular and talk to the supermax guys about any other changes in specs. If none the machine might be a good bang for the buck new. Dave