Hand-planed finished surface?

[Doug Hobkirk]

I do not fully grasp some of the final surface prep options. Usually I just run through 80, 120, 240, and often 320 grit with my ROS (my one Festool). And then I finish it with shellac, poly, or, if I don't want to "seal" it, a concoction I learned from David Marks TV show that includes Tung Oil.

Now it seems that the hobby standard is stop sanding at 240. And periodically I read someone (often in this forum) discussing using a plane for the final smoothing. That seems like it would probably be less time consuming than sanding. But I always wondered how much (if any) difference there would be. Then I noted a hand-made dining room table at someone's home (they purchased it) and I could feel mild undulations on the surface. I thought it felt quite delightful, but maybe that's because I am a woodworker hobbyist (and therefore automatically demented!). I cannot say what the finish was. It seemed to be sealed (if I am using that word correctly), but I have a hard time distinguishing what the finish is unless it's an oiled finish that has started "drying out" or if the finish has defects or is peeling.

So help me, you incredibly talented (demented?) Neanderthals -


Is what I described above the effect one gets from planing?
Is my concept of a "planed finish" correct?
And, to add to the thought, on This Old House there have been references to the terrific "feel" of a hand-planed counter,
Is a planed final surface prep noticeably faster than sanding?
Is 240 grit the best place to stop for hardwoods? softwoods?
And, if my conjectures are correct, does a planed finish make any furniture I make more marketable?

Sometimes I contemplate actually doing something useful with my impressive workshop and tools
I live in the heart of Revolutionary War America - it's a high-end area - I can deal with craft shows (I think)



I have a hodgepodge of planes, including one LN (a block plane), and an assortment of mostly Stanley's, some of which are garage sale finds that I have not yet resurrected (including a #7 and a #8). I am capable of sharpening the blades.

I thank you, as always. I haven't been here much in a while - I have missed you.

[Jim Matthews]

The undulations you describe could be what remains of running the boards through a machine planer.
They cut in a series of regular arcs.

A planed surface, with a really sharp blade, should have the top fibers shorn off and the finish burnished by the plane.
I was taught to sand with 220 grit afterward, so that finish will have something to hold and adhere.

The theory explained to me was that the plane leaves a finish polished to the degree of the last polishing stone used on the blade.
If the blade is fresh, that could mean corners will be exposed when the finish dries, and pulls away from the fine edges.

In practice, sanding shows where I need to do more surface prep - the dust gathers in dings, scratches and dents.

*******

I would say this about making furniture for sale: be original.
Plenty of inexpensive copies coming from factories.

Read up Bob Flexner on finishing. He'll point you along a path to successful finishes.

[Doug Hobkirk]

The undulations you describe could be what remains of running the boards through a machine planer.
They cut in a series of regular arcs.
I am probably not describing it correctly. I have a DeWalt planer. What I felt was irregularities - the surface did not feel flat and planar (like every table top I have ever made (few) or repaired (many - I do a lot of repair work for HGRM (http://hgrm.org/) - Household Goods Recycled [donated stuff, mostly]).

A planed surface, with a really sharp blade, should have the top fibers shorn off and the finish burnished by the plane.
What # (or length) plane do you do this with? This is sort of the crux of my overall question. I thought that the goal was to make flat surfaces, hence long planes like the #7 and #8. But that flies in the face of what I was feeling.


I was taught to sand with 220 grit afterward, so that finish will have something to hold and adhere.
So the 220 grit is giving it more texture than it has after the plane is finished.

The theory explained to me was that the plane leaves a finish polished to the degree of the last polishing stone used on the blade.
If the blade is fresh, that could mean corners will be exposed when the finish dries, and pulls away from the fine edges.

In practice, sanding shows where I need to do more surface prep - the dust gathers in dings, scratches and dents.
Do you remove enough to make it worthwhile to mark the surface with pencil scribbles before you start sanding?

*******

I would say this about making furniture for sale: be original.
Plenty of inexpensive copies coming from factories.

Read up Bob Flexner on finishing. He'll point you along a path to successful finishes.

I wasn't really asking about finishing. I just gave the info so you readers would possibly have a more complete picture. But thanks.

[Chris Fournier]

There will be no right answer to your post and I hate that! So some simple observations as a response.



I never need to start sanding at 80 grit unless I'm working metal. Good machining practices and cutting edges means a 150 to 180 start for me.
I never sand past 220 unless it is on a very dense exotic that is actually moving on through to a polished finish - guitar fingerboard, drawer pull/knob etc. Under a film finish 220 is plenty.
Handplaning vs sanding your surfaces has ZERO value to any client. I mean to any of my clients and I've had some pretty pricey jobs. Period reproductions would be another issue!
If you have the handplane chops then yes it is way quicker than sanding to a prepped surface and to me more enjoyable.
If you want crisp then planing leaves a crisper surface, even careful sanding fairs edges.
If you want different, then handplane to finish, it looks different than sanded.
If you want a different tactile quality to your work then handplane.


You need to understand that you are sort of asking the woodworking question that is akin to "how many angels can fit on a pin head"? Most consumers won't even register what you are talking about at this level. Any "serious" woodworker that experiences your work will! They won't be buying your work...

Welcome to the minutiae! You have arrived and will be ignored by all but your fellow travaillers (sic intended).

[Prashun Patel]

I am hard pressed to tell the difference between well sanded and well planed surfaces after finishing. I am using planes more and more in my own work but not because of the surface quality. I find them more efficient and pleasant.

[Chris Fournier]

I am hard pressed to tell the difference between well sanded and well planed surfaces after finishing. Also, Your inthewood marks tung finish will tell more tales than a thick varnish film.

i would not take anyones word on this. Test for yourself.

You ask questions here all the time and post your thoughts as well and now you wouldn't take anyones opinion? Why is that? How is this question different?

[Prashun Patel]

My response sounded flippant. I do post a lot and ask a lot. Occasionally, i get out of line. I am sorry for that, Chris. I wasnt aiming at you or anyone.

[Brian Holcombe]

I really enjoy the shimmer of a planed finish.

If it has value to you as the woodworker, you can convey that to your client. A client truly interested in how their piece came to exist will understand that something significant to you is important.

[Daniel Rode]

There is no doubt that a hand planed surface feels and looks different than a sanded finish. I'm not convinced this difference is apparent once a finish like shellac, lacquer or poly has been applied. I'm often amazed at how wonderful a crisply planed chunk of 2x4 looks and feels. Other woods seem to take on a shimmering quality that is not there in the unfinished surface after sanding.

As for sanding, I never subscribed to the start with XXX grit and work step by step up to XXX grit. I begin with the finest grit that will remove the imperfections I want removed. I usually stop at 220 grit but will occasionally go up to 320 if I think I have a specific need.

Using a smoothing plane means that, if I sand at all, I start and end at 220 grit. Usually just a light hand sanding. The plane will remove all of the machine marks faster and leave behind a smoother surface than any sand paper. My ROS doesn't get much use any more.

[Matthew Hills]

I do not fully grasp some of the final surface prep options. Usually I just run through 80, 120, 240, and often 320 grit with my ROS (my one Festool). And then I finish it with shellac, poly, or, if I don't want to "seal" it, a concoction I learned from David Marks TV show that includes Tung Oil.

Now it seems that the hobby standard is stop sanding at 240. And periodically I read someone (often in this forum) discussing using a plane for the final smoothing. That seems like it would probably be less time consuming than sanding. But I always wondered how much (if any) difference there would be. Then I noted a hand-made dining room table at someone's home (they purchased it) and I could feel mild undulations on the surface.

Hand-planed surfaces will tend to have mild scallops.
This comes from using a cambered iron in the plane.
There could be some finish sanding done after the last planing.

I like the feel of this, although not an ideal look for a top surface with a high-gloss finish.
Also, it is reported to look weird to mix planed and sanded surfaces; I'll usually use a light finish sanding.

Frank Klausz' recent DVD makes a point that for reproduction work, clients like to see some hand tool marks.
In his example, he uses a moderately-cambered plane to leave a textured surface on the underside of a table.
The top side had some minimal planing to even it up, then ROS (120 and 150grit) to remove machining marks, then hand-sand at 220.

I've also seen some advocate chiseled chamfers for the tactile effect/handwork aesthetic.
I'm happier with my block-planed chamfers than those off my chisel, however.

Matt

[Brian Holcombe]

The practical benefit of planing before finishing, and removing tool marks with a scraper is that you will not see swirls appearing after the finish is applied.

I use a finish plane with a finely honed blade and tight set chip breaker with a light cut and will hardly ever see tool marks on the finished piece. My blades are straight, no scallops.

[Chris Fournier]

My response sounded flippant. I do post a lot and ask a lot. Occasionally, i get out of line. I am sorry for that, Chris. I wasnt aiming at you or anyone.

No offence taken Prashun, I simply didn't understand your stance. Typing is not the same as talking, believe me I know!

[Doug Hobkirk]

First, let me say to all that I appreciate your answers. You also make me feel a little less stupid - that doesn't happen often!


Hand-planed surfaces will tend to have mild scallops.
This comes from using a cambered iron in the plane.
A very slight camber? On a dedicated plane? Maybe a #4? (Oops, here I go showing my ignorance again.)
Oh, so I did a search and found a Fine Woodworking video (http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/the-proper-camber-on-a-handplane-blade.aspx) showing different cambers (1/8" on a scrub plane down to 1/64" on a smoothing plane).
There could be some finish sanding done after the last planing.

I like the feel of this, although not an ideal look for a top surface with a high-gloss finish.
Also, it is reported to look weird to mix planed and sanded surfaces; I'll usually use a light finish sanding.

Frank Klausz' recent DVD makes a point that for reproduction work, clients like to see some hand tool marks.
I am not familiar with his work, but my library network has at least some of his DVD's, so I ordered Tuning and Wood Finishes (I am guessing that one of these will be the one you are citing).
In his example, he uses a moderately-cambered plane to leave a textured surface on the underside of a table.
Underside! That makes sense. That might even work with a fairly aggressive camber.
The top side had some minimal planing to even it up, then ROS (120 and 150 grit) to remove machining marks, then hand-sand at 220.

I've also seen some advocate chiseled chamfers for the tactile effect/handwork aesthetic.
I'm happier with my block-planed chamfers than those off my chisel, however.
Oh no! Now you introduce a new concept. But I grasp that it's totally on point. You like to plane chamfers because it's more controllable? But the chiseled chamfers would be more irregular, ergo they would seem more like evidence that they were done by hand - right?

Matt

Very useful information from all of you.

Obviously I need to experiment - I am asking you about subtle aesthetic nuances. But I didn't want to put much time into pursuing this is if was a fool's errand. You have given me some useful directions to try (unless someone chimes in to show I have not understood something):


Try a slightly cambered smoothing plane on the top surface
Figure out what finish I will use so I can...
Experiment to see what the finish is like without sanding, with my ROS and 240, and with 220 or 240 by hand
Definitely, now that I think about it, using somewhat pronounced chambered planes on the bottom
Experiment with a very slight cambered smoothing plane on the top surface
And explicitly include camfered edges in creating the handmade effect

I will watch the DVD's and read a little. Maybe find some "handmade" furniture boutiques to see what they are selling. Choose a suitable project to market (such a trivial task!), etc. And then come back here with a thousand new questions.

[Jack Curtis]

A lot of my stuff I don't finish at all except for planing, seldom any sanding, and it's all very smooth to the touch. Japanese planes used.

[Doug Hobkirk]

It takes a little practice to find the right curvature for your plane, but the rewards are enormous: Shimmering handplaned surfaces with a sensuous, scalloped and touchable texture. It’s worth the effort.
- Christopher Schwarz

So after a little wandering I found this article (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/camber-with-a-honing-guide) in Popular Woodworking, of which I have included the final paragraph above.

Now I need to clean up my workshop and start experimenting...

[Jim Matthews]

I do 80% of my planing with one that's about 9 1/2 inches long.

I do check with a straight edge to verify my results.

Planing a board to flat, straight and parallel takes three planes for me.

[Sam Stephens]

i hate sanding -either ros or by hand -that's how I started w/ planes. If unfinished, then yes, the surface is much higher quality w/ smoother than sandpaper; w/ finish there's no visual difference imo. I try to avoid the tracks/undulations and don't purposefully leave them behind- certainly not a supposedly flat surface like a table top. And I would agree that it's much faster w/ a plane and/or scraper than sandpaper except for squirelly grain which can take a bit more care.