Calling all Jointer-planer combo wizards. (Hammer to be exact)

[Tyler Keniston]

Hi all. I have previously posted on some woes concerning my a3-31 infeed table adjustments, and I am getting desperate. So i have decided to post for some more specific help. I would be ever so grateful for any advice.

A post made by another creeker here will provide good reference for my trouble concerning the infeed table adjustment on the jointer.


Both of the top tables are supported in four places - by two adjustable height threaded jacking screws with nuts on the hinge side, and by two mushroom headed support bolts on the latch side. To get a stable set up it's necessary to get the 4 supports aligned so that they all make contact at once. Any gap over the head of especially the support beside the locking lever will for sure cause twisting as the lock is done up.

Flatness of the table comes into it, in that if the unloaded table is not absolutely flat there will always be the temptation to use the height adjustments and the locking mechanism to pull it as flat as is possible.

In new condition, my infeed table was not touching all four points before clamping pressure was applied, and was forced by clamping onto the mushroom bolt by a significant amount. The table had some flatness issues, but after what I have gone through, I am willing to move on and get the two tables as coplanar as possible in their current state of slight humps and rolls. (max issues around 6-7 thou)

I have been messing with the hinge side of the infeed table, going off the assumption that for all 4 'points' to contact at the same time, the hinge side must be adjusted so that the table is parallel with the outfeed along the long axis. The height of the mushroom bolts (opposite hinge side) can then be used to adjust the table to be parallel along the short axis. Is this a fair assumption?

It seems no matter what I do, I cannot get the table parallel along its long axis using only the hinge side adjustments, and subsequently cannot make contact with the two mushroom bolts simultaneously. I can get it parallel near the hinge, but then the far side will be far from it. It would lead me to believe that the table is horribly twisted, the only way I can geometrically make sense of this phenomenon, but it is not twisted nearly as dramatically as what I am seeing in the discrepancy of coplanarity.

Anyways if you had any words of wisdom it would be appreciated. I can try to get some pictures if anyone is interested or thinks it would be helpful. Thanks,

Tyler

[Dominic Carpenter]

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be much help, however, I took delivery of a new A31 in February and my infeed and outfeed tables need a slight push down to contact the bolts prior to clamping them into position. I am dead on when clamped in, no adjustments were needed. This is part of the design of the tables. My advise, if you have not already done so, would be to contact Felder service, they are top notch. I certainly would not be messing with the hing side of the table unless advised by service. Take some pictures and send it to them. Ask if you can FaceTime them as well. They can walk you through an adjustment.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be much help, however, I took delivery of a new A31 in February and my infeed and outfeed tables need a slight push down to contact the bolts prior to clamping them into position. I am dead on when clamped in, no adjustments were needed. This is part of the design of the tables. My advise, if you have not already done so, would be to contact Felder service, they are top notch. I certainly would not be messing with the hing side of the table unless advised by service. Take some pictures and send it to them. Ask if you can FaceTime them as well. They can walk you through an adjustment.

plus 1.

Is it sitting on the floor flatly and level?

[Jamie Buxton]

...I have been messing with the hinge side of the infeed table, going off the assumption that for all 4 'points' to contact at the same time, the hinge side must be adjusted so that the table is parallel with the outfeed along the long axis. The height of the mushroom bolts (opposite hinge side) can then be used to adjust the table to be parallel along the short axis. Is this a fair assumption? ..

Yes, that is the process I use on my A3-31. First get the hinge side right (or close to right) then adjust the mushroom bolts to simultaneously catch the table as it comes down.

There is some small interaction between the hinge-side adjustment and the latch-side. I don't quite understand it, but it does happen. (Perhaps the table bends, or play in the hinge gets taken up?) So sometimes I do two cycles of adjustment: hinge side, latch side, back to tweak the hinge side, and re-tweak the latch side.

If you get to the point that the whole surfaces of both tables are coplanar within 6-7 thou, I'd say you're doing very well.

[Craig Behnke]

Please give Felder a call. Their tools are in the price and quality range that customers can expect a good dialogue with the manufacturer if there is ANY issue whatsoever with the tool.

Their machines are supposed to be set up at the factory in Austria to be flat, coplanar, etc, and ready to go upon delivery. Yes, there is sometimes a need for a slight tweak to dial something in, but that is supposed to be the exception and not the rule. From my discussions with Felder, they have indicated that their tools are designed and delivered so that there is minimal to no dialing in work needed by the user. The major/critical alignment work is handled at the factory.

I have to believe (and I hope) that Felder would be happy to walk through the issues and resolve them ASAP. Best of luck with the situation.

[Rod Sheridan]

Tyler, the machine should have been received in working condition.

I suggest that you stop and contact Felder................Regards, Rod.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

For what its worth I took delivery of my A3-31 in November-December of of '13. I had to hire a rigging company to get it into my basement shop. Whether it was in need of some adjustment before the move or not I'll never know, but it was surely in need of adjustment once tested out. Rather than try to screw up a great new machine that I purchased knowing that the service dept was about an hour from me…I broke out the wallet and had them come commission the machine. I know, that's sounds like some overkill…but after what I went through with a defective grizzly jointer…buying the hammer, the optional table extension, the digital hand wheel, the mortising table, bits, waiting for 6 weeks it to arrive, yada yada….why pinch the pennies now? Best money I ever spent. I got to watch the tech train a new guy on tuning up the machine.

In specific answer to you Tyler I have several observations to pass along. The techs lived by use of a Oneway Multi Gauge. I have since bought one and have found a million ways too use it too. In combination with the feeler gauges and ver long machinists straight edge. Also, when adjusting the tables they made as few adjustments as possible to the hinge side of the tables and seem to focus more on the operator side. I realize that it may be impossible to level the parallelogram trying to leave one edge of the plane alone. They were emphatic in their instruction me to try and lock the levers in the exact same spots or orientation each time I am in jointer mode -- the variance might be enough for several thousandths of accuracy. The spec by the way is 2-3 thou.

My real advice is to call Felder. Be very nice, be very persistent and consider paying for a service call. Matt

[Tyler Keniston]

Thanks for the advice all.

I will say that the move to call Hammer support had already been made long ago with frustrating results. Its really a little bit too much to get into here, but suffice it to say that I was left with my blood nearly boiling after talking with a few techs in specific that had some of the worst listening skills and arrogance I've dealt with for such processes. I'm not claiming I was an angel, but I had just paid good money for a new machine and they were unwilling to hear me out.

I do still believe hinge side adjustment was/is needed for me based on coplanar issues and a very very large gap before clamping on one of the temple bolts.

I may need to put previous bitterness aside and try the techs again. What is this about a paid service call? Is it an upgraded service feature besides the standard free call?

[Tyler Keniston]

when adjusting the tables they made as few adjustments as possible to the hinge side of the tables and seem to focus more on the operator side.

Yeah this is where I get confused, because if it is true that the table should contact those two temple bolts simultaneously, then the only adjustment you can really make with those bolts is across the short axis. (i.e. advancing or backing the two bolts off exactly the same distance, therefore not affecting the tilt over the length of the bed).

[Erik Loza]

Tyler, I am not too familiar with the design of the A3-31 but do they use any brass shims on the hinge side of the table? If so, have you tried removing/adding them to achieve the result you are looking for? Brass shims are a common feature on many jointer/planers but again, I have no hands-on experience with your unit.

Also, and I will probably draw some heat for saying this, but it sounds to me like they have done what they are obligated to in terms of support. Now, if there is an actual defect in a casting, extrusion, or something like that, then "yes" they probably need to stay involved. Or, if parts (like shims, for example) are missing or more are needed in order for the customer to get the machine jointing straight, then "yes", they still need to be involved. But beyond that, it's really up to the customer to evaluate and perform the adjustments to get the machine cutting to their taste. And I say "taste" because in many cases, seven-thousandths will not make any difference in the end result. I'm not saying that you don't have a right to be frustrated but on the other hand, as Matt K. pointed out, phone support is the norm for this level of machine unless you pay extra to have a tech come out and actually commission the unit.

By the way, I was with Felder many years ago and will tell you that what we (Americans) sometimes perceive as "arrogance" in terms of manner is just the way many Europeans are. It is meant to be direct, not condescending. The Italians I work with today are the same way.

Best of luck with your solution,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[John Piwaron]

For what its worth I took delivery of my A3-31 in November-December of of '13. I had to hire a rigging company to get it into my basement shop. Whether it was in need of some adjustment before the move or not I'll never know, but it was surely in need of adjustment once tested out. Rather than try to screw up a great new machine that I purchased knowing that the service dept was about an hour from me…I broke out the wallet and had them come commission the machine. I know, that's sounds like some overkill…but after what I went through with a defective grizzly jointer…buying the hammer, the optional table extension, the digital hand wheel, the mortising table, bits, waiting for 6 weeks it to arrive, yada yada….why pinch the pennies now? Best money I ever spent. I got to watch the tech train a new guy on tuning up the machine.

In specific answer to you Tyler I have several observations to pass along. The techs lived by use of a Oneway Multi Gauge. I have since bought one and have found a million ways too use it too. In combination with the feeler gauges and ver long machinists straight edge. Also, when adjusting the tables they made as few adjustments as possible to the hinge side of the tables and seem to focus more on the operator side. I realize that it may be impossible to level the parallelogram trying to leave one edge of the plane alone. They were emphatic in their instruction me to try and lock the levers in the exact same spots or orientation each time I am in jointer mode -- the variance might be enough for several thousandths of accuracy. The spec by the way is 2-3 thou.

My real advice is to call Felder. Be very nice, be very persistent and consider paying for a service call. Matt

Matt, FWIW, what was the cost of that service call? Wouldn't that be included in the warranty of a brand new machine?

[nicholas mitchell]

As Matt has said. This service is called commissioning . It is the most important and worthwhile accessory you can buy for a precision machine. Your machine will be running perfectly after this service. Not only that but it gives you the opportunity to bombard the tech with any question you can think of about your new machine.Basically its like buying a mercedes and having the engineer come to your house and tell you how it was built and how it works. The price is variable depending on the complexity of the machine setup. A machine with a slider that for shipping reasons is separate from the machine will cost more than a machine like a j/p that is all in one piece on delivery. All you have to do is have power to the machine and dust collection hooked up and they'll do the rest. Distance from a service centre will also factor in the price obviously.
This is not a warranty service, this is a separate service entirely.
I would be shocked if this service was not offered by the salesman. They want you to have your machine commissioned.

My advice to the op is to swallow your pride and call hammer back and set up an in shop visit. Even if you've been rude in the past they want you to be happy with your purchase. If that isn't possible for you, then contact a local service tech and see what he can do for you. It sounds like you're chasing your tail on this and probably making the situation worse.

And for those who wonder why this service is necessary, once you start into the world of high class machinery it's standard operating procedure. When a machine is capable of extreme precision and tight tolerances, you want its full capabilities. All quality companies offer this service. It's either an add-on like felder does or its built into the price of the machine.

best of luck

[Chris Fournier]

While watching the Felder videos when I was shopping combo machines I loved the German tinted accent that repeatedly said "this is not a Felder system" with regards to their sliding table bearings, I mutter this to myself when I'm using my saw every time and have a giggle.

Well... the point Felder was making in the videos is that they were ubber superior to other manufacturers and I'm sure that their service department will do a good job of picking up for the failings of their Teutonic compatriats in QC. The European companies do have decent after sales support, give them a call and I'm certain that they'll get you sorted.

I have a Felder power feeder on a MiniMax combo, together they make up a Fournier system! You'll be okay!

[Matt Kestenbaum]

So, Felder group does not include or even really publicize on site commissioning of hammer machines because they are the value end of their line. But, the fact that they have service beyond the phone was a factor in my purchase decision.

The tech I spoke to talked of cross-crossing the country assembling and tuning machines -- mostly the ultra high end Format CNC stuff and other machines 10x the cost of an a3-31. And herein is your opportunity--if you are requesting a service call they will likely bundle you with another service job in your general geography. I know they just opened a new office in Dallas--in addition to Delaware, California (Chicago maybe?)

In my case, since I am not too far from the Delaware hq, I paid for $65 an hour for transit Time (x2) and $90 an hour for the service...it worked out to $400.

Good luck! Matt

[Tyler Keniston]

I have contacted hammer and they are working with me to gets things squared up.



for those who wonder why this service is necessary, once you start into the world of high class machinery it's standard operating procedure. When a machine is capable of extreme precision and tight tolerances, you want its full capabilities.

I don't see that point of view being one I will grab a hold of. At least not as an owner of an A3-31 priced machine. That's fine if in the world of real high class machinery it is some sort of 'standard' to pay out another fist load of cash for optimizing a brand new machine, but I didn't buy me a rocket ship here ;) I live in central Maine and the travel expense for the trip would be significant. I would expect any decent quality piece of woodworking machinery to be in a condition of nearly optimized use, or at least capable of reaching that without the need for on-site support that may cost as much as a quarter the price of the machine. (or something close anyways, i didn't actually do the math). The fact that this support is available, however, I do appreciate and can see why it has its place.

[Kevin Jenness]

Working with Felder is your best bet, but if the tables are machined out of spec an on site tech visit will not remedy the problem. I would suggest investing in an accurate ( +/- .001" over its length) straightedge as long as your jointer, a set of feeler gauges and a pack of brass shim stock. A dial indicator and a digital caliper would also be helpful. This will not be inexpensive, but will cost little more than the tech and be useful in the future. This will allow you to assess the flatness of the tables and get them into alignment using patience, logic and more patience. Jointers are simple machines and can give very accurate results if set up correctly, but minor misalignments can have serious effects. When I say minor I am talking about a few thousandths over the length of the tables. You can't measure that without precise instruments. If the tables are not flat within the manufacturer's specs, then you have a warranty issue. If they are, you should be able to get them coplanar using the above tools and the adjustments built into the table supports. Keep in mind that as rigid as the tables seem, they can be twisted in and out of plane with surprising ease. Use the straightedge and feeler gauges from corner to corner as well as along the tables' length. Good luck.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

Not to beat a dead horse...but I just want clarify a few things. I am in no way saying that Tyler doesn't have the right to expect the tool to live up to its potential quickly. And if there were an error on Hammer/Felder Group's part they should (and I'm confident would) make it right.

My course of action is not for everyone...and in my case not for every tool I've bought! I only put it out there cause I know what's it feels like to have a machine you craved, coveted, studied, shopped, ogled and finally bought not work exactly like it should.

I knew that moving the tool from Austria to New Jersey might mean some checking, tuning and adjustments...every tool does! Even a brand new chisel or plane from LN or LV comes with paper that says it's good to go, but is better with a final honing. And my decision to lower it by gantry crane into a basement shop wasn't going to help. I am sure I could have commissioned my machine myself--with feeler gauges, dial indicator mounted in oneway gauge and a 4ft machinists straight edge. AND lots of patience while sitting on a milk crate (or on my knees) squinting.

In MY CASE (and only my case), it was a combination of unfamiliarity with the intimate particulars of this machine's design and engineering -- it's not anything like the grizzly delta knock-off that I took apart and put back together regularly for a few years. And I was a little bit already feeling like I was spoiling myself by buying it!, but I was worried I wouldn't get it right.

Call me a sissy if you want...go ahead! But, with the owners manual in one hand and the feeler gauges in the other I looked at the machine and decided to put them both down and pick up the phone with one hand and reach for the Amex with the other. I traded a full day of tedium for some cash. And as a side benefit to saving my back, eyes, and time I got a huge piece of mind knowing it was perfect. And if It is ever not perfect I'll recognize the difference.

.

[Tyler Keniston]

I hear ya Matt. I think it is a sound decision to do what you did. The fact that the service is offered and subsequently utilized is awesome.
I'm young and without much cash, having spent most my savings to get the shop up and running.

The idea of investing in the tools and time to gain knowledge and skills that will serve me further down the road (and perhaps save me money down the road too) is of most interest to me at this time. I do already have the instruments Kevin spoke of (precision straight edge, feeler gauges, dial indicator, calipers) and have been utilizing them throughout this tuning process. Working on the patience ;)

I've made contact with Felder. Apparently the literature that states the table should not be twisted onto the temple bolts is based more for the higher end Felder and F-4 machines. So said one of the techs at least. I was essentially told that my issue stems from the fact that my machine is the Hammer make (i.e. low end) because the chassis is not wide enough to easily support the table and adjustments will be finicky. I guess I'll be intentionally building a twist into my infeed table. I think part of the difficulty communicating with the people at Felder is that the information needs to be sorted through seeing as they work on a range of varying quality machines with some inherent differences. There is still no literature that diagrams or speaks of hinge side adjustments for the new generation of the a3-31 (a drastically different hinge mechanism then the old style).

[Tyler Keniston]

but if the tables are machined out of spec an on site tech visit will not remedy the problem.

That is honestly another concern of mine. I'm not 100% convinced that my tables are within spec, but its surprisingly difficult to find the info on what exactly their specs are (specifically how they're measured). If my tables are truly within spec, I have to say its not the flatness I expected. I'll hopefully get my machine performing to its best, but I'm starting to think that as soon as I get a bigger shop space and the income to support some tool upgrades, I'll be getting separate jointer planer units. Perhaps I expect too much (and I'm not trying to trash on the Hammer product, maybe I'll end up loving it) but I do like things to be precise, and separate units is probably my best bet for achieving that.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Tyler, my CF741 was assembled stateside from several demo machines, at my request, to speed up delivery. I had to talk to tech about adjusting the table to the machine, as it had never been mounted. Tech was easily able to walk me through that via a simple phone call. Adjusting your J/P is far easier probably, if you want to do it yourself, you can with their help.

I'm only posting again because you mentioned accuracy, and expectations. Any machine should be judged by its actual work. Measure the results, not some possibly irrelevant single aspect of it. Don't let a possibly incorrect assumption about the importance of some piece of one cloud your ability to objectively judge the results. Stands for any machine, Felder, Griz, Sawstop, makes no difference.

[Kevin Jenness]

Just out of curiosity, how flat are your jointer tables and how did you measure that? Also, as Steve suggests, are the results you are getting unacceptable? I would expect to be able to joint two boards of the same thickness as long as the outfeed table, anywhere across the width of the tables, and have a flawless seam in at least one sweet spot in the width and no more than .010" gap between the boards running them anywhere else. This would be after setting the knives parallel to the outfeed table +/- .001" and setting the outfeed table even to top dead center of the cutting circle or no more than 001" lower. There should be no detectable snipe at the end of the cut. If I can't get that close with the two boards, I look at the sharpness of the knives, very minor adjustments in the outfeed table height,, the flatness and coplanarity of the tables and the stability of the table support. If I can't get a consistently accurate result with a couple of 1x4's 3' long on a 6' long machine, something is wrong with my technique, the way the machine is set up, or the machining or stiffness of the tables.

I hope I don't come across as completely obsessive. I judge the machines I work with by the results I can get from them, and in the case of jointers the results can vary considerably depending on minute adjustments. I like to have glue joints that don't require excessive force to bring together, and I can get that result on four different jointers that I work with regularly. If you can't do that with your machine with phone support, perhaps a "commissioning" visit is in order. If the factory tech can't make it work acceptably, make him explain why and lay that on the sales force to make it right.

[Curt Harms]

Tyler, my CF741 was assembled stateside from several demo machines, at my request, to speed up delivery. I had to talk to tech about adjusting the table to the machine, as it had never been mounted. Tech was easily able to walk me through that via a simple phone call. Adjusting your J/P is far easier probably, if you want to do it yourself, you can with their help.

I'm only posting again because you mentioned accuracy, and expectations. Any machine should be judged by its actual work. Measure the results, not some possibly irrelevant single aspect of it. Don't let a possibly incorrect assumption about the importance of some piece of one cloud your ability to objectively judge the results. Stands for any machine, Felder, Griz, Sawstop, makes no difference.

Likes this post.

[greg hallquist]

Tyler,

I share your pain, but there is hope!
I have an A3-31 I bought used from a guy who had it set up incorrectly. After getting it moved and set up in my shop, it simply didn't joint or plane correctly, so I went to the guys at Felder in Delaware who were great to deal with. The outfeed and indeed were not on the same plane, and I for the life of me could not figure it out after wasting hours trying to fix it.
They offered me a fee to come and diligently sent up my machine - like $200, and given the frustration level I was at, I seriously considered it.
I played with the mushroom bolts and to no avail. While the sales guy (Geoffrey Doubet) was more than happy to oblige me and send me a service rep for the fee, he suggested that I speak with the service guy first (can't remember his name, but Geoff could tell you) and see if I could get it sorted out.
Well, after a minute on the phone with him, I was inspired - he said this is not uncommon - after transport of a used machine. He asked if i had a "One way dial indicator" - What's that? So i went and got one at Woodcraft and Voila! - It measured the table relative to the cutter head at the indeed and outfeed tables so I could get that by playing with the bolts. Also need a long and accurate straightedge - 48", so I got that too. Getting both tables adjusted to the cutterhead and parallel to each other required small adjustments and measuring with both tools til after 30 minutes I had it!
Adjust for parallel - measure and adjust for cutter head alignment - measure and adjust for parallel, and so on.....small increments til you "dial in".

It now works beautifully. The machine I was once ready to get rid of is now my reliable workhorse Someone else said it - these are precision machines and once out of alignment, useless. Re-aligning them is not intuitive or easy unless you get some "training".

The guys at Felder USA in DE were fantastic - Geoff and the service guy (wish I remembered his name) - both of whom talked me out of the service call - only as a last resort they said.
I have subsequently bought a K3 Winner 48x48 (used), and love that too. Now looking at a Felder Bandsaw to replace my Laguna 16HD. even though I didn't buy my machines from the DE location or new for that matter, they are always there for me.

Anyway, please send me a PM and I will send you my number if you want to give me a buzz and chat and see if I can help you through. I know how frustrating this can be - believe me.

Regards
Greg

[Adrian Radu]

Hello Tyler, this is an old post but might be useful for people reading it to tell us how you went about fixing your Hammer

[Bart Estes]

Hi,
I am new to the group and baffled by my Hammer A3 31. It seems to want to be a good machine, but mine seem to wander in and out of alignment. I paid around $800 for a service call last year (extra charge for transportation time); no joy.
I have adjusted temple bolts and even tried to adjust the infeed hinge.
Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Bart

[Tanner Hawey]

Hi,
I am new to the group and baffled by my Hammer A3 31. It seems to want to be a good machine, but mine seem to wander in and out of alignment. I paid around $800 for a service call last year (extra charge for transportation time); no joy.
I have adjusted temple bolts and even tried to adjust the infeed hinge.
Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Bart

Did you ever get your machine sorted out? I'm struggling getting my infeed table to be coplanar with he outfeed. The back corner on the infeed table seems to be the one point I can't get any movement on by adjusting the mushroom head bolts.

Have spent a few hours with a straight edge and feeler gauges getting very close on 3 points but that fourth point just won't budge.

[Robyn Horton]

Tanner .. On the infeed table if its the backside side of the table your trying to adjust there are small allen screws that are adjustable once the bolts are loosened , there are nuts locking the bolts that are behind a plate covering them up. These bolts are holding the hinge mount to the planer cabinet body. Only turn the allen screws the slightest bit for a big change though , remember where your wrench was when you started ! …

[Tanner Hawey]

Thanks Robyn, that was the key piece I was missing, appreciate your assistance.