simple sawing skill

[Vince Shriver]

For the life of me, I can't cut a board square. For instance when I cross cut a 2x4 I can pretty much follow the line I scribe across the face, but the thing ALWAYS winds up canted so that one face is longer than the other. I look down the saw blade and it seems square (90 degrees to the ground), but when I finish the cut - the end grain edge (top to bottom) is always angled to the left. I'd really like to learn to do this right (no pun intended) - suggestions?

[Joe Bailey]

carry the line you've scribed on the face, down onto the side. When starting the cut, make sure you are tracking both lines.
Once you've started straight, you should be okay.
Also, make sure you don't have a death grip on the saw, such that you are torquing the handle to one side.

All of this assumes a saw which is sharp and can track a straight line. Does this happen regardless of which saw you use?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As Joe mentions, having marks on both sides to follow helps a lot.

For the user-error issue, part of the trick for me was making sure I had my dominant eye lined up with the cut. Simply sliding my body one direction helped a lot.

Closing your eyes and cutting loosely, not trying to guide the saw the cut, just letting it do it's thing can help you identify is the problem is saw being set too much on one side - by removing yourself from the equation as much as possible that way, you can get an idea of what the saw wants to do. Cross cutting into a wider 1x board has been a good indicator for me - if you see cuts continually veering in one direction, it's overly set on one side. Lightly stoning the side with too much set can help this.

But before I start changing a saw, I'd make sure it's not technique.

[lowell holmes]

With all of the Paul Sellers discussion that's been going on in this forum, I hesitate to post this. But . . . .

I attended several of his classes back when he was at Elm Mott, Texas (Homestead Heritage).
He taught us to scribe the cut line with a Box Cutter utility knife and then excavate a half v-ramp on the waste side of the cut.
This was done with a sharp chisel.

Then saw on the line and the vertical side of the "knife wall" (Paul called it that). Your saw will follow the kerf you started with the knife.

After you do this a while, you will not need to scribe with the knife.


Also, Bob Rozaieski in his Logan Cabinet Shoppe videos has an excellent video on the subject.

[Adam Cruea]

Just to throw another helper out there. . .I'm going to guess you're maybe right-handed?

This used to happen to me for one simple reason: I didn't keep my elbow tucked up against my side and I'd start to swing like a boxer. I learned this reading (and I think watching) a video Mark Harrell had linked on his Facebook page.

http://www.rpwoodwork.com/blog/tag/sawing-to-a-line-five-uncommon-tips-series/

That may help a little.

[Roy Lindberry]

Instead of trying to sight the saw 90 degrees to the ground, try referencing to the board. Look at the reflection of the board in the saw plate - if the reflection looks like the board dives up or down, tilt the saw accordingly. The reflection should look like the board runs straight through the saw.

[Lamar Keeney]

Roy said
Instead of trying to sight the saw 90 degrees to the ground, try referencing to the board. Look at the reflection of the board in the saw plate - if the reflection looks like the board dives up or down, tilt the saw accordingly. The reflection should look like the board runs straight through the saw.

This ^^^

[Mike Allen1010]

Lots of good advice here. Consider:

1) use saw bench knee high. Will give you more room to see saw plate above the work.

2) once you get the kerf bairly started, use a square to make sure the plate is 90 degrees to the work piece. I keep a dedicate square hanging on my saw bench just for this reason.

3) right eye over lay out line, plate perpendicular, good light, clamped work; now like golf - head still and let your arm move up and away from your body, just like Adam said. With a little practise this is easy to do w/ high degree of accuracy.

A cut that isn't perpendicular to work surface is about your body position/biomechanics. Cut that wanders away f/ layout line is more likely about uneven set on your saw as Josh said above.

Cheers, Mike

[Jim Matthews]

Listen to Mike - he's on the money.

Roy beat me to it on the reflection trick to get close to square.

Do you know which of your eyes is dominant?
Find a stable mark on a wall, some 10 feet (3+ meters for our Metric viewers) away.


With both eyes open, locate the spot on the wall and point to it.

Close one eye and see if you're still pointing at the spot.
If so, you're "sighting" down that extended finger with your dominant eye.

If not, the other eye is doing the "aiming".

*******

I cut a single mark on crosscuts as described above, all the way around the board.
That adds verification that your edges and faces are perpendicular.

If you can't get a sqaure scribe all the way around, off your reference face and reference edge
then the board itself isn't square, yet.

When ripping, I use Jim Tolpin's recommendation, and score parallel lines where I want to cut.
I keep the saw between the lines, and that seems to help me stay straight, and the kerf narrow.

Lastly - I don't try to saw precisely to my finished dimension.
Saws get me close, planes get parts to the precise fit.

If my best saw day sees deviations of 8-10 thousandths, my worst planing day sees deviations of 1-2 thousandths.
My saws are for the quick stuff, other tools are for precision.

* Give yourself margin for error on every step *

[Jim Koepke]

All of the above is good advice.

In my case, after the problems of the saw and set were eliminated the only thing left was my technique.

My sawing only got better by continued practice and evaluation of my sawing. Knifing a line all the way around helps in that it allowed me to see where and by how much my kerf wandered.

For me it was always off a bit in the same direction. My solution was to understand this and to self compensate. Now when sawing I can usually leave one side of the knife mark all around the piece with just a plane shaving or two of waste to remove.

A lot of time was spent with scrap pieces in the vise with lines marked every 1/8" or so to practice sawing. This is also how to test a saw after sharpening.

As has been said above, loose grip and do not try to steer the saw. If the saw steers itself, then some work on the set is needed.

Good luck,

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

I have to agree with Jim. Knife the board all around and saw. Either practice on scrap or live with somewhat uneven results until you gain skill. An experienced worker does not line things up and sight like a gun or look at reflections. We just saw.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Warren, do you still knife the board all the same or is that out too?

I'm struggling with sawing too, and while lines that are facing me are no problem, the back side is anyone's guess, so I work all 4 sides/corners about 20% first before committing to more.

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, do you still knife the board all the same or is that out too?

Marko, I do a little different according to the situation. If I am just breaking down rough lumber with no reference sides, I just use a pencil or chalk and saw.

If I am cross cutting for a precision edge, like for dovetailing, I knife all around from the reference surfaces, saw about 1/32 (more or less depending on situation and skill) from the knife mark, then plane the end grain in a vise. The knife marks all around provide a check that all lines are accurate, they prevent splintering on the back sides, and they provide a guide to tell when to stop planing.

If I am sawing a surface that does not need to be planed, like the end or a tenon, I knife all around and cut right against the line.

[Jim Matthews]

If I am cross cutting for a precision edge, like for dovetailing, I knife all around from the reference surfaces, saw about 1/32 (more or less depending on situation and skill) from the knife mark, then plane the end grain in a vise. The knife marks all around provide a check that all lines are accurate, they prevent splintering on the back sides, and they provide a guide to tell when to stop planing.

If I am sawing a surface that does not need to be planed, like the end or a tenon, I knife all around and cut right against the line.

Same way I was taught.
Some cuts require precision, most don't.

[Chris Fournier]

I simply mark a face and an edge and watch both lines. I had/have experienced the same results and it simply came down to how I held the saw, I have to rotate my wrist away fom my body to square the saw plate to the wood and away I go. Once you succeed making one sqaure cut the next success comes far easier.

Now try sawing with your weak hand...

[Mike Siemsen]

If you are cutting square across the face then you just need to move your entire body over. If you are undercutting move away from the line otherwise move toward the line. You will find the place that works for you.

[Pat Barry]

I simply mark a face and an edge and watch both lines. I had/have experienced the same results and it simply came down to how I held the saw, I have to rotate my wrist away fom my body to square the saw plate to the wood and away I go. Once you succeed making one sqaure cut the next success comes far easier.

Now try sawing with your weak hand...

I assume Chris is marking the leading edge and the top surface. Those are the markings you need. I can't see trying to check the other side of the board while you are cutting - the damage is already done by the time you see it. Likewise, scribing the exit will not give any added confidence while you are cutting. I guess when you exit the cut you can immediately see the issue if there is one but once again, the damage is done. Start the cut right and 75% of the task is complete. Trying to ciorrect a cut that is off on the backside 1/2 way through the cut is counterproductive.

[steven c newman]

Have a similar problem with the way I saw, with every saw286685Had to use this as a saw bench. Not sure IF you can tell, but the cut line curves to the right, was even binding the saw. Edge is square, top to bottom, but that dang curved part. Board is a treated 2x10. Saw is a D-7, with LOTS of set.

[Mike Allen1010]

FWIW:

1) Sharp matters – a sharp saw starts right on the layout line .

2) 90% of the battle is "Start straight – stay straight" truer words were never said. Keep the tooth line at low angle ~15° to the workpiece, no downward pressure at all (think "hover" the saw over the layout line), and use your thumb to start the cut exactly where you want.

2) Saw bench – get your upper body and eye directly over the layout line (face surface is all you need to lay out).

3) Once you establish the initial 1/4" of the kerf, use a square to make sure the saw plate is 90 degrees to the workpiece.

From there - keep your head still, relax, let the saw do the work and keep your eye on the inside margin of the kerf directly adjacent to the layout line.

Anyone can totally do this – little practice is all it takes.

All the best, Mike


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[David Weaver]

From there - keep your head still, relax, let the saw do the work and keep your eye on the inside margin of the kerf directly adjacent to the layout line.



And don't let your mind wander in a long cut, either. If your mind wanders, eventually the saw will, too.

[Pat Barry]

Have a similar problem with the way I saw, with every saw286685Had to use this as a saw bench. Not sure IF you can tell, but the cut line curves to the right, was even binding the saw. Edge is square, top to bottom, but that dang curved part. Board is a treated 2x10. Saw is a D-7, with LOTS of set.
steven - if this is your typical result it could be that the set is not symmetrical (the same on both left and right) - this will cause the cut to drift without some other force acting to keep the cut on track. Was the saw pulling away from the line in spite of your best efforts to keep it straight? You also mention 'lots of set' - not sure this is a positive thing with regard to achieving a straight cut

[steven c newman]

Saw seemed to start out straight286696then went a full length stroke and felt it start to bind. might have to stone one side?

[Jim Koepke]

I can't see trying to check the other side of the board while you are cutting - the damage is already done by the time you see it.

For my learning experience it was helpful to have the marking all around. This was so the cut could be evaluated after it was done. My wandering was consistent. This allowed me to consciously adjust my effort to improve my cutting.

Another advantage is if the scribe line is left all around after the cut, the breakout fragments are on the waste side of the cut.

jtk