Kitchens; joining sides to faces

[Moses Yoder]

I am designing a new kitchen for us. My house was built by a man that worked in a trailer factory and he brought the cabinets home in his lunch box. They are absolutely atrocious, a serious embarrassment for any woodworker. We have made do with them for a long time now. I built a nice kitchen for us once and then we sold that house. I plan to die in this kitchen.

I will have a number of questions along the way probably. This will be a hickory kitchen, my wife and I both love hickory. Depending on the available wood I will make the doors & drawer fronts rustic, or I might make the door frames select brown hickory and just the panels rustic. I am using Blumotion hinges and slides, full overlay doors & drawer fronts, and will route some sort of recessed pull into the fronts.

The first question has to do with joining the sides to the fronts. We used to use a square tongue and groove at Riegseckers and I always thought that should be tapered, or a wedge. I was poking around last night and found this shaper cutter set last night and am interested in the wedge tongue & groove.

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These cutters are ideal for my shaper, a 1-1/2 horse Powermatic with 3/4" spindle. At that price I assume the cutters are made overseas somewhere, but really the set would only have to last me for this one kitchen. Ideally it would then be used for other projects but that would be a bonus. So what do you think of the wedge T&G? And the cutters; do you know of a better quality set? I wouldn't want to spend more than say $200 but would be willing to spend more for better quality.

[George Bokros]

I don't see where tapered gains anything but a little more glue area. IMHO they do not lock together any better or provide any additional strength.

[Moses Yoder]

The only problem is making the square tongue fit into the square groove. For us they sometimes fit tight, sometimes loose, and sometimes they had to be beat in with a sledge hammer. Setting it up after sharpening took a good half hour and the guys were on piece rate so the guy in cutting doesn't care how it goes together for the guy in assembly. I wouldn't have that problem, it is just a problem we had. It seems like the wedge would be easier to assemble.

[Moses Yoder]

I guess if I did end up going with a square tongue I would probably just buy the cutters to make the tongue and run a 1/4" dado to make the groove, shim the tongue cutter to fit. Might not be bad just for one kitchen. I could always set up a block plane to chamfer the front corners of the tongue a tad to make it easier to start.

[Peter Quinn]

Moses, I'm confused as to what is joining what here. Fronts to sides? Are you talking about putting tongues on the plywood to go into groves on the Face frames? If so that strikes me as a lot of effort for very little gain. Factories build that way because it makes assembly simple...ie brainless, so semi skilled labor can populate the production line. If you want alignment aids I'd consider slotting both frame and plywood and using a spline to joint them, a few swipes of sand paper ease the fit. The plywood to frame glue joint is mor than strong enough, the tongues add nothing except alignment, I'd be disinclined to buy specialized tooling for that. Last job we had a 4mm slot cutter, that's the same thickness as a biscuit, you can slot all the plywood and frames then throw in biscuits as needed, you really only need one edge in each plane, say an end and a top edge. In my home shop I use pocket screws in all blind areas to cut down on clamps needed for gluing on face frames. I run them in dry with a few clamps holding the frames in alignment, remove, glue, the screws find there location better and move the frames less without the glue, so once you add glue they mostly find their holes the second time.

[Moses Yoder]

Whenever I build something I tend to consider what the archeologists will think of it ten thousand years from now. Yes, I occasionally throw something together on the cheap. I absolutely refuse to use biscuit joints or pocket screws in a kitchen I have to use every day. Yes, the difference is all in my head. I have to look at this kitchen every day for the rest of my life.

[Derek Arita]

I don't know what else could be stronger than pocket screwing and gluing cabinet boxes to face frames. I recently took apart a kitchen that used biscuits and glue and found that the wood gave before the glue did. You could dado the frames to fit the box sides for more glue area, but even that will be overkill.
Best I could think of would be to use several Festool dominos per side...beech dominos are very strong and alignment would be pretty much dead on.

[John TenEyck]

Whenever I build something I tend to consider what the archeologists will think of it ten thousand years from now. Yes, I occasionally throw something together on the cheap. I absolutely refuse to use biscuit joints or pocket screws in a kitchen I have to use every day. Yes, the difference is all in my head. I have to look at this kitchen every day for the rest of my life.

As suggested, biscuits or splines make alignment of the faceframe to carcase simple. They don't show after the faceframe is in place and the glue joint is what provides strength anyway. I would not spend money on a specialized shaper cutter if you have no other use for it. It offers no advantage over those other methods, neither in speed nor strength, nor looks. I think the average life of a kitchen is less than 25 years these days. In your case, I guess you could consider your lifetime to be it's lifetime.

John

[Peter Quinn]

Whenever I build something I tend to consider what the archeologists will think of it ten thousand years from now. Yes, I occasionally throw something together on the cheap. I absolutely refuse to use biscuit joints or pocket screws in a kitchen I have to use every day. Yes, the difference is all in my head. I have to look at this kitchen every day for the rest of my life.


If you can see the pocket screws or biscuits when all is finished you are doing something wrong. I've had to modify a few boxes built this way....your archeologist had better bring a sledge hammer if he wants to disassemble a box built this way and do an autopsy. I'm guessing the archeologists will think something like "Hey, these guys were resourceful, didn't know such a simple technique could build something so strong". I don't like using a biscuit jointer for the actual biscuits slots because you cant get good purchase on the edges of face frames, but its nice to have the biscuits as splines if you are already equipped for that. Again, the tongue and groove is simply an alignment aid, a good glue joint FF to wood is stronger than the wood, break it apart and the wood will alway fail. An 1/8" slot in both members with a 1/2" spline let into each side by 1/4" is more than sufficient to secure a perfect alignment, 1/8" MDF works nicely for the purpose, and you can generally make it with something you already own thus saving more money for things like wood and hardware. The pocket screws are clamps that never come off. I don't have enough clamps to do a whole kitchen or enough patience to wait for glue to dry. Interesting how opinions on the subject vary. I would never consider using biscuits or pocket screws on furniture I build for my home, but the kitchen cabs? I would never consider building something like a kitchen that I use every day as if it were furniture. Once there is plywood involved all bets are off in my book, its anything goes with no reservations as long as its solid and the aesthetics are pleasing to the user.

[Sam Murdoch]

Once there is plywood involved all bets are off in my book, its anything goes with no reservations as long as its solid and the aesthetics are pleasing to the user.

Moses, this was my same thought as I read your aversion to pocket screws or biscuits. If you want your face frame to flush with the sides (in and/or out to a finished end) there is nothing easier and more practical than biscuits. The little bit of loose fit that is characteristic of biscuits make them especially good in this application. I will not take the time to explain my system as you don't want to use biscuits but I certainly will if you are interested.

Otherwise, for face frames that overlay the sides and horizontals I recommend a loose spline. Easy to machine the slots in all the parts and allows for a pretty easy assembly with really strong results - no fastening needed - just glue, clamps and maybe a few cauls.

[Jim Andrew]

I worked in a shop once, where they used a router table, using a 1/2" cutter to make a rabbit cut on the edge of the plywood so there was about a 1/4 x 1/4 tongue after the cut. They made a matching cut on the face frame, then clamped the box down to the face frame and stapled along the edge through the tongue to hold the box to the face frame. That way they could use glue and as soon as it was done being stapled, move on to the next box.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Some artisans glue on the frame using bar clamps. It can take a lot of clamps but it's certainly a way to get things lined up exactly as you want them. I think Tage Frid would do cabinets with t&g carcases cut quickly on the table saw. I don't know how he approached frame alignment. It may say in his books. I try to get the barest sliver of deck proud of the bottom frame, 1/32" maybe, so there's no lip anywhere to trap debris in the cabinet. I put a tiny bevel on the edge of the ply before attaching the frame.

[George Bokros]

Mark Sommerfeld has a set of router bits for making the tongues and grooves for this kind of construction and they work great. I have them and used them for a complete set of cabinets for my shop and or other cabinets I built for the house. The tongues fit nice and snug in the grooves and align well. You can make the face frames flush with the cabinet sides or a little proud depending on how you orient the stock.

Here is a link to his site

http://sommerfeldtools.com/professional-equipment-and-tools/router-bits-and-sets/router-bit-sets/3-pc-tongue-groove-cabinetmaking-set

George

[Peter Quinn]

So just where do you put the tongues and grooves? Everywhere? both edges? Does this mean you have to drop the stiles on and then cut the FF rails to fit, then assemble frames, after carcuss construction?

[George Bokros]

So just where do you put the tongues and grooves? Everywhere? both edges? Does this mean you have to drop the stiles on and then cut the FF rails to fit, then assemble frames, after carcuss construction?

The tongues are cut on the cabinet sides and bottom, the grooves are in the face frame stiles and the bottom rail. Cut stiles to length place them on the cabinet sides measure and cut your rails to fit then cut the groove in the bottom rail to fit the tongue. Assemble the face frame with pocket screws and attach the assembled face frame with glue and clamps to the cabinet sides and bottom. Makes a strong assembly.

Here is his YouTube video on this method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klv0jzWD26w

George

[Moses Yoder]

You cut your parts for the face frame then groove the bottom rail and both stiles. The sides and bottom are then cut to size and a tongue put on the front edge. The face frame is assembled and sent through the wide belt sander. The sides are dadoed to hold the bottom, the tongue on the bottom is back cut to miss the stiles. Apply glue to the tongue on one side and insert it into the face frame, glue and insert the bottom, then glue and insert the other side. Clamp and set aside for the glue to dry, after which you apply nailers, sand and finish. Only the uppers receive tops which are installed in a 1/4" rabbet with staples after finishing. Backs are stapled into rabbets after finishing.

After all the comments this morning I am rethinking everything. Why not assemble the frames with pocket screws and attach the carcase with biscuits? It would be like a little joke to me; All the guests would oooh and aaah over the beautiful kitchen and I would be the only one that knows the truth. Seriously, I am considering it; it would cost less for tooling, I already have those tools, and it would be a lot faster, something which apparently means a lot to most people. I think I'll do it.

[Vince Shriver]

Mark Sommerfeld has a set of router bits for making the tongues and grooves for this kind of construction and they work great. I have them and used them for a complete set of cabinets for my shop and or other cabinets I built for the house. The tongues fit nice and snug in the grooves and align well. You can make the face frames flush with the cabinet sides or a little proud depending on how you orient the stock.

Here is a link to his site

http://sommerfeldtools.com/professional-equipment-and-tools/router-bits-and-sets/router-bit-sets/3-pc-tongue-groove-cabinetmaking-set

George

There is a free video on the web where Mark shows exactly how to do this with his bits. Looks pretty simple.

[George Bokros]

You are correct Vince, I found it after I posted this. It is actually four parts there on YouTube.

[Jim Andrew]

Moses, if you have already made up your mind to use biscuits, I would suggest you cut some shims approximately 1/16" thick, so you can make your face frames go past the box approx 1/16", to allow you to get your face frames tight together when you install your cabinets. If they are exactly flush, you will wind up having to add some thin fillers where the walls are not perfectly straight. And do not sand the edges of your face frames, so they are not rounded slightly from sanding, as that makes your joints appear loose.

[Sam Murdoch]

One of the great features of face frame cabinets is that you can assemble an entire run of cabinets together on the floor or bench then apply a fully assembled face frame to the entire run. This works for base cabs as well as uppers. When installing the cabinets built this way the only place that the separate face frames come together is in the corners. In this case allow your outside face frame verts to be wider to scribe in place as needed. Sometimes it is not practical to move a 6'or 8' run of cabinets shop built but you can take your boxes to the site and assemble there - then apply the assembled face frame. If the cabinet run and face frame have been pre fitted with the biscuit slots all located attaching them together on site is pretty easy. (If you care I can describe my process in another post - not everyone's way but one system that has served me well through very many cabinet builds and installs.)

Of course there are exceptions but good design and construction planning can take into account the variables and so you adjust the build accordingly.

[Moses Yoder]

Thanks for the suggestion Sam. This is a small kitchen, about 10' x 13' with a mjor traffic pattern at one end. I will have separate corner cabinets and the cabinets in between will all be one piece. I will be building them in my shop and finishing them then installing them and installing the drawers and doors after.