Help with mortise and tenon joint advice

[Michael Yadfar]

I'm building a table and I plan to use a mortise and tenon joint to secure the skirts to the legs. I've built furniture projects before and I'm familiar with the tools (have my own little shop), but this table will be my biggest and hardest project so far so I'm relatively amateur. I've built this type of joint once for a project in my school shop, and for the tenon I used a radial arm saw with a dado blade. For the mortise, I used a dado blade on the table saw and just went the whole height of the board (this was for a drawer assembly).

One of my biggest issues is that this assembly is a bit different; I'm joining a skirt to a leg, not the side of a drawer to the front that's the same size. So I can't just run the whole leg through a dado blade on the table saw, or that would look a bit odd. I also don't have access to a radial arm saw at all, and I don't have a dado kit for my table saw (although I could buy one if needed).

So first I'm wondering if I can make a tenon without a dado blade set? Like I said I can buy a set for my table saw if it's necessary, but I also have a router so I don't know if there's a bit/technique I can use that won't be much harder and will be cheaper.

The mortise is my biggest concern because I really have no idea on how to make this one. I saw a lot of recommendations online for hand tools, but I'm not skilled with any hand tools and I doubt I own the ones I need. I was thinking a plunge router may be a solution to this, but one thing I was concerned about is the two ends of the mortise being rounded and maybe a bit too long

[David Eisenhauer]

You can cut the tenon out on a table saw by using a - wait for it - tenon jig. Look up tenon jigs (You Tube bound to have something) and a plunge router works fine for mortices. The main issue with router-mortises is making a jig for use to put the mortises exactly where you want them. Look up "loose tenon" or "slip tenon" to see what I am talking about. The rounded-end mortise can be matched with a rounded end tenon or you can use a chisel to square off the ends. While you say you are not skilled with hand tools - no one else was when they started either - it is probably a good time to consider starting to ease into some hand tool use by using the hand tools to fine-tune or adjust (slightly) the dimensions of the mortises and the tenons. The tenons cut on the TS may not be exactly dead-on correct, but a very light work with a chisel can get them just right. Chisels cost less than a tenon saw and shoulder/rabbet/block planes that the hand tool guys use. Chisels are good first hand tools to get started with and a block plane is another very handy item. Of course you then need to get into sharpening, but one step at a time.I would imagine you are where most of us were at one time and may or may not have gone much past this stage in some cases. Do what is enjoyable, don't be afraid of hand tools if you want to try them and get after that table.

[Mike Henderson]

Figure out where you want the mortise and then use your drill press and an appropriate sized drill bit to drill out most of the waste. Then trim to size with regular bench chisels.

Making the tenon is a bit harder to describe but you can do it with a dado set, a sled and a stop. You set the dado set to the proper height, cut one side using the stop to make sure you don't make your tenon too long, then turn the board 90 degrees, do it again, then turn 90 degrees, do it again, etc. until you cut all four sides. I leave the tenon a bit fat and trim to fit the mortise.

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

As Mike recommended, if you have a drill press, drill most of the waste out for the mortis and then clean/square it up with chisels.

For the tenon: http://www.woodsmith.com/magazine/extras/173/tenons-on-the-table-saw/

[Jim Matthews]

If it's a first time, I recommend floating tenon joinery.

You cut a mortise in the mating pieces,
and fill each side with a third piece that acts as a tenon.

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Main/Articles/Skill-Builder-Loose-Tenon-Joinery-with-a-Router-9064.aspx

The tool moves over the workpiece, which is fixed to your bench.
This can be done with a router, drill press or by dedicated tool.

I just built a bathroom cabinet where the equivalent of your table legs
were mortised with a Jessem tool designed for a plain-Jane power drill.

The mortises were aligned on adjacent sides, as with your skirts -
so I needed more surety in alignment than I can generate by hand.

The tenons in my case were cut into the small connecting rails
(equivalent to your skirts) but were small enough that the tenons
could be cut by hand - if I made a mistake (and I won't admit to any)
I could just replace the rail with another piece from the same board.

Given that you've likely chosen the skirts because of their length and grain pattern,
I recommend using one of the methods above, as the skirt can be fixed in place
and kept straight in relation to the legs.

I like the Jessem, but it's dependent on having a high-torque drill motor.

The router would probably produce the best finish, but it generates too much
dust in my basement shop.

http://www.jessem.com/ZIP_SLOT.html

[Matthew Hills]

Other responses are good. There are many ways to do this, so should be able to do it with stuff you already have in your toolkit:

Drilling out a mortise works okay.
Use a drill press to get vertical holes
Use a fence to help keep your holes in-line.
Recommend drilling out the two ends before removing the waste in between.
Forstner bits are a bit easier to work with (normal twist bits will tend to deflect more).
Recommend using a depth stop. Plan to leave a bit of space between bottom of mortise and end of tenon.
You can leave the ends rounded, or you can square them up using a narrow chisel.
Use a wide chisel to smooth out the mortise sides.

Recommend making the mortise first, and then dialing in your tenon with test pieces.

Tenon jig is useful way to cut the cheeks of the tenon:
(then use a sled or miter gauge to cut the shoulder)
I made a tenon jig similar to this:
http://www.julienlecomte.net/blogfiles/20110319/thumbnails/IMG_3661.JPG


Edit: Should've asked how large of a table. A 6' apron isn't easy to cut with the tenoning jig shown above. Either loose tenons or nibbling out with TS blade / router / or dado would be easier.


Matt

[Dave Anthony]

I'd recommend floating tenons, you can cut the mortises with a plunge router & spiral up cut bit. I use a homemade jig, pictures are here: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?206525-Mortise-Jig&highlight=
For tenon stock rip a piece of wood to width, run through a planer to get a good fit (thickness), round the edges w/a router & round over bit.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Michael -

You nave a table saw. You have a plunge router. What else you got? A bandsaw maybe? A router table?

This particular cat can be skinned in any number of ways.

[Michael Yadfar]

Michael -

You nave a table saw. You have a plunge router. What else you got? A bandsaw maybe? A router table?

This particular cat can be skinned in any number of ways.

I got a table saw, miter saw, jointer, planer, drill press, band saw, router (no table yet).

I like the idea of using the drill press to clear out material and then using chisels to clear out the debris. I don't have any chisels though, and I wanted to ask what the best chisels are that aren't unrealistic in price.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Floating, or loose tenons are the way to go. HF sells a set of three mortising router bits (high speed steel) for around ten -twelve bucks, less any coupons you may have. I use them to assemble the screen doors I make for customers. Item #66733

[Mike Henderson]

I got a table saw, miter saw, jointer, planer, drill press, band saw, router (no table yet).

I like the idea of using the drill press to clear out material and then using chisels to clear out the debris. I don't have any chisels though, and I wanted to ask what the best chisels are that aren't unrealistic in price.
The Narex chisels (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=67707&cat=1,41504) are pretty good and sell at a decent price. You probably don't need anything bigger than 1" so the 7 piece set would be a good choice. If that's too expensive, go for the 4 piece set.

Mike

[Leo Graywacz]

http://www.fototime.com/81ED6B337689882/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/50D40B7F83B9F99/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/DFA16B1FBB14FEF/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/2D3B8544443B388/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/3BCEDD5DCE9432E/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/FFE464E95BABD4C/orig.jpg

[Jay Park]

anyone use the quick tenon method? Seems like a good fast way to create a tenon with out a jig.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/42295/behold-the-speed-tenon

[Leo Graywacz]

I used that method to cut the top and bottom shoulders of the tenon. On my table I used 1" for the top and 3/16" for the bottom. Most of the time I cut a non symmetrical tenon where the front shoulder depth is different from the back shoulder depth. In my table the apron was 1 3/16" thick. The front shoulder was 3/8" and the back shoulder was 5/16", the tenon was 1/2".

When I make cabinet doors usually I do a 3/8" front shoulder, 3/16" back shoulder and a 1/4" tenon.

When I setup my tenon jig I also use a spacer board that is the thickness of the tenon and the blade combined minus about 5 thousandth of an inch. I use the tenoner fence as my reference point. I mark all my boards with a line that designates that as the front. This will always face the tenoner jig fence and will be the front of the door..

I place the spacer board and the rail to be tenoned so the board is against the fence and the spacer is near the screw clamp. Push it through the saw. Then I put the spacer board against the tenon fence and the rail to be tenoned against the spacer board and tighten the screw clamp on the jig. I push it though and get my second cut forming the tenon.

By doing it this way and offset tenon is easy to do. It also makes the tenon thickness always the same, even if your board thickness isn't the same. You could have a 3/4" board and a 13/16" board and you would still end up with a tenon the same thickness.

spacer board on the outside near the screw clamp
http://www.fototime.com/CCA21E8969293FE/orig.jpg

spacer board on the inside against the fence
http://www.fototime.com/DFA16B1FBB14FEF/orig.jpg

You can see the offset
http://www.fototime.com/2D3B8544443B388/orig.jpg

[Kent A Bathurst]

I got a table saw, miter saw, jointer, planer, drill press, band saw, router (no table yet).

I like the idea of using the drill press to clear out material and then using chisels to clear out the debris. I don't have any chisels though, and I wanted to ask what the best chisels are that aren't unrealistic in price.

ON the mortises - the DP and chisels are correct. The Narex are very solid. I got some as a throw-in with something I bought dog years ago at Highland. Was very pleasantly surprised at how they performed.

"Unrealistic in price" depends on which fantasy land you live in. In my fantasy land, my set of LN mortise chisels were not unrealistic.

On the tenons -

Whatever. Couple quick methods - But - always cut the mortises first, so you hae the target for the tenons:
1. Set up TS blade and fence, so you can cut the 4 shoulders on the tenon all with one setup - for 3/4" stock, maybe blade height of 3/16 +1/32" or 1/4+ 1/32". Use the miter gauge to push through.
2. Now that you have clean shoulders, set up a dado set to hog off the rest. The +1/32" above is so that you have a clean-cut corner/intersection between the shoulders and the cheeks. Use the dado set to "sneak up" on the tenon - set them too low, cut both faces, test fit. Sneak up a bit more, cut both faces, test fit. Stop just shy, and use a sanding block, or block plane, or rasp, or face float [my favorite] to take a swipe or two for final fit.
3. Use your bandsaw to cut the cheeks. Clamp a stop block so you don't over-cut. Leave some fat for the same "swipe or two" as above.

The tenon jig is great - I have one of those. But - I use these other methods also. It just depends on how many, how big, fine furniture or outdoor furniture, phase of the moon, etc. Plus hand-cut them also.

[Greg Hines, MD]

If you do not care about the looks under the table, pocket screws would hold your table together quite strongly, all for the cost of a jig and some screws. I would use a router, with a fence and straight bit, or, depending on how long you want the tenons, even a rabbeting bit with a bearing. I would use a mortising jig and straight bit to plow out the mortises. I have a photo on my list of a very simple and effective mortising jig that I have made (the photo is from Woodsmith) that lets you position your mortise wherever you want it.

I would also suggest making the mortises first, so you can fit the tenon to it.

[Leo Graywacz]

If you do not care about the looks under the table, pocket screws would hold your table together quite strongly, all for the cost of a jig and some screws. I would use a router, with a fence and straight bit, or, depending on how long you want the tenons, even a rabbeting bit with a bearing. I would use a mortising jig and straight bit to plow out the mortises. I have a photo on my list of a very simple and effective mortising jig that I have made (the photo is from Woodsmith) that lets you position your mortise wherever you want it.

I would also suggest making the mortises first, so you can fit the tenon to it.

I would agree with this too.

[Prashun Patel]

+1 for the floating tenon for your first shot.
Also, I vote for using a plunge router for the mating mortises. Yes, the ends will be round. You can either square them up with a chisel or (easier) round over your tenons.

[Jim Matthews]

anyone use the quick tenon method? Seems like a good fast way to create a tenon with out a jig.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/42295/behold-the-speed-tenon

It's also the quickest way to generate kickback.
BAD idea, to recommend an unsafe practice.

[Jim Matthews]

I would agree with this too.

+1, I can always trim or shim a tenon if it doesn't fit.

[Prashun Patel]

That is not necessarily true. I have used the method many times. Its not a beginner move, but it is possible to control it, unlike freehanding a rip or a long unsupported cross cut.

[glenn bradley]

I too am in the mortise first, size tenon to fit camp. Depending on the length of the part, a tenon jig on the tablesaw (I have and use one frequently) can be awkward. For long or heavy parts I use floating tenons. For that matter, for most non-show joints I use floating tenons. Several good suggestions here so use the one (or more) methods that you are most comfortable with.

[Charles Lent]

If you go with floating tenons you don't really have to round them to fit the router cut mortise. Leave them square, but sized to fit the straight side parts of the mortise. The half round void at each end will serve to hold any excess glue in the joint. The glued side surfaces of the mortise and the tenon will provide all the strength you need. I've made them this way for years and never had a failure.

Charley

[Kent A Bathurst]

+1 for the floating tenon for your first shot.

Respectful difference of opinion.

He has all the tools ready to go for a traditional joint, without the need to make and align the router jig[s] for floating.

Not saying "no" to floating, just saying I wouldn't start there, is all.

[Kent A Bathurst]

+1, I can always trim or shim a tenon if it doesn't fit.

Yep. On one of my earliest ventures, it seemed like I always had to do it. Especially the shimming. But - scrap, glue, and clamps gives you an easy mulligan.

Nothing like a solid set of recoverable mistakes to teach yourself what is really going on. Or at least, that's what I tell myself. :D

[lowell holmes]

I recently bought a Mortise Pal from a member. It was in the classifieds. I happened by minutes after he posted it and immediately jumped on it.

I have used loose tenons on door construction and favor them. I made my on jigs for it.

The mortise pal simplifies the process.

[Al Launier]

This could come in handy someday: http://consultingwoodworker.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Fluting_Jig_815_x_11.177125511.pdf

[Jim Matthews]

Mastery doesn't mean you know what to do when everything goes according to plan.

Mastery is when you can recover from the unexpected, and make it look
as if that was what you planned anyway.

My favorite FWW article featured the inestimable Phil Lowe on how to rescue seven
Joinery mistakes - some of which I've used more than once.

http://ebenistecreateur.fr/file/livres/Travail%20du%20Bois/242%20Fiches%20(anglais)/techniques/REPARATIONS.pdf

[Pat Barry]

It's also the quickest way to generate kickback.
BAD idea, to recommend an unsafe practice.
I do not see that method as unsafe as it has been demonstrated.

[Pat Barry]

+1 for the floating tenon for your first shot.
Also, I vote for using a plunge router for the mating mortises. Yes, the ends will be round. You can either square them up with a chisel or (easier) round over your tenons.
I am not certain I agree with this. Sure a similar set-up is used for the mortise on each piece, but now you have to make a loose tenon and that means several more setups. To me, for a few mortises, the old fashioned / traditional mortise and tenon fills the bill. I do agree with mortise first and fit the tenon to it. Also, all you need to do is a rough roundover on the tenons, using a chisel for example, so they fit. That is easier than trying to square off the mortise.

[Prashun Patel]

There are many righht answers to this. For me, cutting tenons is harder than a strip of loose tenon stock. I have done loose tenons with a domino, mortisepal, and with a router jig. For me, it just doesnt get any easier than loose tenons. The only reason to do traditional m and t is to be traditional. For me. For me. For me.

[Pat Barry]

There are many righht answers to this. For me, cutting tenons is harder than a strip of loose tenon stock. I have done loose tenons with a domino, mortisepal, and with a router jig. For me, it just doesnt get any easier than loose tenons. The only reason to do traditional m and t is to be traditional. For me. For me. For me.
I can see the loose tenon approach if you have the Domino tool for sure. Don't know about the mortise pal. How do you create your loose tenons Prashun? Maybe thats the key to success.

[Prashun Patel]

I cut them at the tablesaw. I use a roundover bit for the corners when i have to make a lot. But thats nit critical. They can just be chamfered anyway you wish.

[Dave Anthony]

These are the reasons I like loose tenons, cutting mortises w/a plunge router & jig. Tenon stock is ripped to width, planned to final thickness, ends rounded over w/a round over bit (or not, as other's have mentioned, rounded ends are not critical).

1. The mortises have very clean, smooth sides.
2. Using a planer, it is easy to get a very precise fit with the tenon stock on the cheeks, the most critical part of the joint. Once you have a stick of tenon stock, it's quick and easy to chop it up into individual tenons. No need to cleanup/hand tune each joint w/a shoulder plane, which has been my experience when cutting tenons on the table saw.
3. Layout is quick and easy, all that's needed is the center line, the jig does the rest.
4. Parts can be cut to final size. Less calculation = fewer chances to make a mistake. Also, it helps with grain matching (on very busy grain, hiding a portion w a/tenon can disrupt the grain wrapping smoothly; for example, on a table apron). There's usually some boring/less attractive part of stock that gets trimmed off anyway, this is a prime candidate for tenon stock.
5. If he already has a plunge router, planer, and table saw, all that's needed is a good spiral up cut bit and a jig which can be made from scrap and < $20 worth of parts.

This is just what works for me.