Teach a New Neander about Handsaws....

[Rich Riddle]

I am getting into shape with planes, chisels, screwdrivers, etc. but use a very old K-Mart hand saw. I know nothing about them or who even makes a decent crosscut or rip saw. Will some of you Neanders please enlighten me......

[Andrew Fleck]

I'm assuming your talking about panel saws. Lot's of good old ones out there. I tend to stay away from Disston saws as most of them are overpriced IMO. I just picked up a really nice Richardson Brothers saw that is great for next to nothing. There is a lot of old user saws out there that aren't Disstons that work great.

I'm not sure who might make a good new panel saw. I would pick up some $5.00 specials and learn how to sharpen them. You can find a lot of good saws out there that just need to be sharpened up and cleaned off.

I would advise you go out and see the saws in person so you can get one with a straight plate. I don't trust the bay enough to get one from there. Straightening plates is more work than I would want to do.

[Joe Bailey]

You could use the search function at the top of the page -- literally reams have been written in this forum on this topic

OR, you may want to start here: http://thesawblog.com/?p=1463

[Sean Hughto]

You will likely want 4 to 5 handsaws before all is said and done: dovetail, tenon, sash, large rip, and large cross-cut.

How fat is your wallet? You can do this cheap or expensive. And, of course, vintage (Disston, Atkins, Peace, etc.) or new (Bad Axe, Gramercy, Lie Nielsen, etc.)?

You can even go Eastern (Japanese) or Western.

[Mike Allen1010]

Hi Rich,

Sounds like you're interested in saws for dimensioning stock (vs. Joinery) , something I would encourage as most folks are surprised at the speed and accuracy you can achieve w/ handsaws.

Lots of info on saws which can be overwhelming for someone getting started. FWIW, a couple thoughts for you're consideration:

1) For typical 26" saws Vintage handsaws are the way to go - taper ground, hand tensioned blades aren't made anymore, are standard in widely available vintage saws and offer tangible benefits that translate into faster, more accurate and enjoyable sawing. This is one area where "they truly don't make,em like that anymore"- not nostalgia, just practical.

I started w/ Japanese saws which are great for joinery, but waaaaay too small, slow for routinely dimensioning stock IMHO and are impossible to sharpen (probably over stated. Others more talented than me do fantastic work w/ these)

2) Even the bottom of the line saw f/ Disston, Simmonds, Atkins, EC Simmons, Richardson, Bishop, etc. Circa 1870-1940's Is better than anything made today (not so for "backed joinery saws).

Well sharpened, tuned saw is more important than the model. Just like vintage planes , most are well made, its the fettling/tuning that seperates effortless speed and accuracy from a much less rewarding sawing experience. You should learn to sharpen your own saws but the learning curve is steeper than other edge tools. There are small number of respected saw tuners you can,t miss w/. Get a saw there you son,t need a top of the line, or collectable model- Disston D-8, Atkins 53, 65 or Simonds non-blue ribbon are all excellent, affordable users. This will provide good model of what you're shooting for .

8 PPI X-cut, 5 PPI rip and 11-12 PPI X-cut will do most everything you need. Good luck stopping there- it's easy to end up w/ waaaay more. Personally I don,t regret that.

Cheers, Mike

[Jim Matthews]

Listen to Mike.

He's forgotten more than most of us will likely ever learn about saws.
The advice on tuning is at the heart of this -

I think Japanese saws became popular because they were sharp, right out of the package.
When I started making bigger pieces of wood into smaller ones, finding a sharp Western saw
was improbable, and finding anyone that could tell me how to get one sharp was impossible.

That's back when Arpanet speeds were measured in Baud rates.
* But I digress *

On Western saws - anything longer than your shirtsleeve length is wasted.
I've found more utility in Western saws 20 inches and under than the big ones.

It's rare that I'll need a 30" rip saw with monster teeth on it.

I'm reaching for a 12 tooth per inch progressive pitch rip saw for nearly everything, these days.

*******

If you're trying your hand at rehab, and can't decide what to buy as a first project -
look at the handle. Plane plywood or plastic handles deserve a pass.

If the handle is smooth, and well worn by the previous users - it was good enough for work.
I look for handles that aren't broken, wrapped in tape or (horrors) held together with machine screws.

The plate should be straight.

Surface rust that brushes off is serviceable.
Deep pits mean the plate surface is uneven, and will drag in deeper cuts.

********

For my money, I would skip the starter courses and just buy a proper set
of Ron Bontz, Lie Nielsen or Matt Cianci saws and forget the interim steps.

I have a bucket full of "someday" saws that I picked up for a few dollars each.
Altogether, it's the same amount of money I would have spent on a rehabilitated vintage saw.

What's your time worth?
Do you want to expend it repairing tools, or making furniture?



http://www.thesawwright.com/
http://www.wkfinetools.com/trestore/saw/sawrest-frank/sawRest1.asp
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

[Jack Curtis]

...I think Japanese saws became popular because they were sharp, right out of the package. ...

Maybe for some, but there are other reasons to buy Japanese saws. For example, because they're pull saws, the plate can be thinner, thus allowing an incredibly narrow kerf. I also think pulling saws is preferable to pushing for force and control, and I've found nothing better than quality, hand made Japanese saws.

[Rich Riddle]

Mike and Jim,

Thank you for that concise yet important information. From time to time members advertise those older restored saws in the classified section, so I will look out for one or two of them. My shop/garage houses many old woodworking tools so when those saws do come available, they will feel at home. Anything will beat the K-Mart saw currently used as a primary hand saw.

[maximillian arango]

I know nothing about them or who even makes a decent crosscut or rip saw.

Since you posted this question I think this thread would be an appropriate place to ask since I've had this question my self so I started to put a list of what brands to look for and what to avoid. My knowledge is very limited at best so I was going to start a thread requesting help making a list of what brands to get and what to look for and what to complacently avoid (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dLVlUraKr362PQU1_n4pgA0EI78Nwi7AgFWtfN0lbC8/edit?usp=sharing). Please forgive me but my list sucks right now since midterms and papers have gotten in the way I promises around May 21st(graduation) I'll get back to it and have better organization.

[Mike Allen1010]

Hi Jack,

I agree with you lots of good reasons to use Japanese saws, particularly for joinery.

I think I may have given the wrong impression; the physics of pulling a thin piece of steel through the wood and the engineering quality in the tooth geometry design/execution in handmade Japanese saw blades are extraordinary and highly effective.

Like Jim, when I started careening down the hand tool slope, the only Sharp, quality saws I was aware of were Japanese ( thanks to James Krenov's books). I used exclusively Japanese saws for several years, still have many I think are unbeatable for specific tasks.

My personal experience is that for cutting joinery Japanese saws are fantastic - a rip dozuki is my go to for dovetails in narrow stock, however for day to day, handtool only dimensioning stock, much faster and just as accurately with western saws. For me ripping, particularly in > 4/4 requires a little energy expenditure that's just easier for me with my upper body over the layout line, pushing the plate down through the work.

Wilbur, David and others here are MUCH more knowledgable about eastern saws, and may have a different and more informed experience than me.

All the best, Mike

[Rich Riddle]

I was going to start a thread requesting help making a list of what brands to get and what to look for and what to complacently avoid (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dLVlUraKr362PQU1_n4pgA0EI78Nwi7AgFWtfN0lbC8/edit?usp=sharing).
Can't help with the brands to seek, but avoid K-Mart and Buck Brothers saws.

[maximillian arango]

Lol we'll start from there

[Winton Applegate]

I must say I am shocked !
Shocked that you have made it this far, into the hand tool buying world, and not been virtually buried in mail order catalogs arriving at your door.
Containing a veritable puh, puh, pluh . . .

plethora

of hand saws.

[Winton Applegate]

OK now down to saws (((IMO)))


as far as a saw you can take off the shelf that is made and sharpened right and you can just saw straight with it get a Japanese saw even the inexpensive (meaning under a hundred dollars) saws right off the rack at Woodcraft. HOWEVER
learn to sharpen as soon as possible (yesterday)
for most of my work and in the larger planks and joints and harder wood I reach for a western push saw
about all of the "high quality" (over a hundred dollars by quite a bit) brand new, name brand, highly touted in the magazines, saws I have bought over the years ( and that is quite a few) they NEED FETTLING. Straightening, and or they cut crooked because of uneven sharpness on one side etc. not to mention tuning the tooth geometry for extra hard wood etc.


So I guess I am agreeing and disagreeing and reagreeing with all here.

Feather saw files for Japanese saws by the way.

I would recommend, in hind sight, buying the top of the line saws IF THE MAKER WILL RESHARPEN FOR YOU and go from there. That way you get a saw that cuts right.
THEN
learn sharpening on the old stuff and buy mostly those from then on once you learn to sharpen.

When I started I wish I had bought a Marcou plane and a top of the line panel saw and dove tail saw.
To hell with the price.
Look at all the time it will save you if you want to start working wood rather than figuring out WHAT WENT WRONG.

If you have a REAL HAND TOOL WOODWORKER at the end of your block or phone then that is all different.
ask her or him to help you.
I didn't , even at the local woodcrap store, so I WASTED or spent a ton of time figuring out what went wrong.
Much of it wasn't you it is poorly or inappropriately set up tools.

wheeeze, gasp, hack . . .
there. That is what I think.
Start saving.
Or better yet sell that second car and buy three woodworking hand tools.

I am sure your wife will be understanding.
:)

[Rich Riddle]

I must say I am shocked !
Shocked that you have made it this far, into the hand tool buying world, and not been virtually buried in mail order catalogs arriving at your door.
Containing a veritable puh, puh, pluh . . .

plethora

of hand saws.
She who must be obeyed throws them in the recycling prior to them getting to me. Or perhaps, I simply don't get the catalogs. By the way, the second car is a 1965 Mustang with a 289 4-barrel. There's no way she's selling that for tools.
286637

[Tony Wilkins]

Beautiful pony there Rich. My first car was a '66 and hope to have another one before I die.