first western saw set

[Matthew N. Masail]

I decided to sell some tools I don't use in order to be able to get 2 decent saws. I have used Japanese until now but I don't like the handle or the pull stroke so much,
I guess I'm a westerner after all :)


I read that the way a saw is sharpened will make it harder or easier to maintain, so I assume this should be a consideration for me.


I don't plan on owning 3 dovetail saws... only one. I'm cutting down to necessities both for financial reasons and for practicality, all this tool stuff has taken a lot of time away from actually doing woodworking, and I feel it's time to come back down to earth.


I was thinking the LN are a good bet, with the canted blades, that a dovetail saw and a carcass saw should cover most work, right?
The price for them seems good, and is as high as I feel I can logically go.


What I don't know is how they are sharpened, or if it's really a good choice as all arounders. I have medium to small hands, I can comfortably get a 4 finger grip on a No. 3 (don't hate me:rolleyes: )


I'll be able to go visit TFWW easily more than once as I'll be only 30minutes away from Manhattan for a week, but even so the Gramercy are pricey.... believe it or not I can actually get the Gramercy in Israel! yeah ere moving forward.... but I'd pay about 40% extra. . . making them WAY out of my current budget. but than again they seem to be everyones favorite.. (would still buy them in US)


I'm really not sure what to do.... almost feel like I should just give up and get nothing... but I'm stuck without a pair of decent joinery saws.


Will I feel the Gramercy were worth it if I get them? or will I also feel "how on earth can I sharpen this. . . ." and the same for LN?


Sorry for all the rambling..

[David Weaver]

Sharpening joinery saws won't be a problem if you have to do it. You'll figure it out. It's also something that's hard to "really screw up bad", the teeth are small and the geometry for them to actually do work isn't that critical as long as the rip saw you get doesn't have too big of teeth. They'll tell you loud and clear if something is lacking (if your rake is too relaxed or not relaxed enough, etc).

If budget is an issue, I'd get whatever is least expensive that you like. If that's the LN, then go for it. The only thing hard to change is tooth count, otherwise you can change any aspect of the teeth on the saw.

I haven't used the gramercy saws, but I'm an advocate of not getting swept up in how a saw is set up tooth-wise as new, because the difference in how the different saws are filed is transient. It should be your goal to file your own saws without question. A well filed saw will last several large projects and a file will last a dozen light filings or so if it's a good on (being sparing on the jointing and large adjustments to teeth).

[Brian Holcombe]

Matt, I own 5 western saws, two are panel saws.

The others are a dovetail saw, crosscut carcass saw and a rip tenon saw. If I did not cut large tenons I would probably be able to get away with a rip and crosscut carcass saws. The LN carcass saws are capable of 2-1/4" deep cuts, so that gets you up to through tenons in 8/4 stock.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Matthew:
FWIW, I have a LN .015" / 15 ppi.
I had an older version, but my sawing skills are sufficient ( barely ) that the thin kerf was a good fit. I sold the original for ten bucks less than I paid for it, and it was four years old.
I feel it is a great saw for the money, but the general thought is the Veritas DT saw is really good value.
Just my 2 cents, but pick up something while you are in North America if you can.
Good Luck!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I just find the Gramercy saws purty with the folded backs. They also feel just right in my hand, and the balance is just right to me - the blade end on the carcase saws I have is actually less than the Adria dovetail saw. I use the Gramercy rip carcase all the time. I've use the the Lie Nielsen at shows, and it feels a little more aggressive and grabby to me, but that's more a matter of filing than anything else. Anything by a decent, modern maker is going to be plenty fine if the tooth count isn't about where you want it and the handle and weight feels fine in your hand for you - anything else is easily change-able, as David mentions. Take good care of it, and you should be able to sell any saw by LV, LN or TFWW for almost as much as you payed for it if the ergonomics start to disagree with you.

Try reaching out to some Creekers in the areas you're going to be in and see if you can get your hands on anything your interested in for trying out - I think a saw is the sort of thing that more than anything else depends on what it feels like to you. Since you're probably not looking in purchasing saws by one-man jobs like Bad Axe that make multiple sized handles, it's probably worth seeing how they feel *to you* before pulling the trigger.

[Matthew N. Masail]

David, Thank you for that perspective! sometimes all the info around can drive someone with no knowledge about the subject crazy.


Dave, Thats a good point. how different is it to cut dovetails with the dovetail saw or a rip carcass saw?


Joshua, Thanks I will look to see if I can find a way to try things out. still my main goal in this trip is to do what I'm coming to do and spend the rest of my time resting, I need a vacation badly.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Dave, Thats a good point. how different is it to cut dovetails with the dovetail saw or a rip carcass saw?

.

Matthew:

It is a matter of size, I suppose. A DT saw is smaller for ' usually ' smaller jobs; that being said, I made a 4 foot x 6 foot raised planter box out of Western Red cedar 2 x 8 stock and cut the dovetails with a 7 ppi Disston full size rip saw from my grandfather - a few gaps, but it only has to hold dirt.

At the local fine cabinetmaking school near me that I have taken a couple weeks of instruction, Robert uses a Zona saw - the one with about a 5'' blade for all dovetails / pins in all kinds of exotic, tough, wood ( Narra, Limba, pear, Doussie, etc. ) - has for many years and swears by it - they are only about $15.00 from LV and many hobby shops. In fact, the one he has is at least 10 years old, has cut hundreds and hundreds ( if not thousands ) of joints, and still works very nicely. It is not a sharpenable (?) blade by any means, but, it gets the job done to a spectacular degree. My point it is the person driving the saw, not the saw that makes the final product.

I like my LN saw, as I got the spine engraved with acanthus leaves and such, it makes me smile every time I pick it up and use it. That makes the job less of a chore and more of a pleasure; that in itself makes the job go smoother IMHO.

Have fun and good luck - hope this helps -

Dave B

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

I have both the LN 15 ppi (the original version, based on the IT saw) and the Gramercy dovetail saw. The Gramercy is reviewed here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GramercyDovetailSaw.html

I doubt that you would be unhappy with either. They are both excellent. They do, however, feel different from each other. The LN has a thick, solid handle and feels like a solid, powerful saw and powers its way through the wood. The Gramercy is light and nimble, and it feels like a wand that you wave at the wood, which then falls away in front of you.

Which is your style?

Sharpening? Dave is correct. It is not difficult. Get a good visor to magnify the teeth, and use a decent file. Just touch up the teeth as soon as they feel a little dull.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew N. Masail]

Matthew:

It is a matter of size, I suppose. A DT saw is smaller for ' usually ' smaller jobs; that being said, I made a 4 foot x 6 foot raised planter box out of Western Red cedar 2 x 8 stock and cut the dovetails with a 7 ppi Disston full size rip saw from my grandfather - a few gaps, but it only has to hold dirt.

At the local fine cabinetmaking school near me that I have taken a couple weeks of instruction, Robert uses a Zona saw - the one with about a 5'' blade for all dovetails / pins in all kinds of exotic, tough, wood ( Narra, Limba, pear, Doussie, etc. ) - has for many years and swears by it - they are only about $15.00 from LV and many hobby shops. In fact, the one he has is at least 10 years old, has cut hundreds and hundreds ( if not thousands ) of joints, and still works very nicely. It is not a sharpenable (?) blade by any means, but, it gets the job done to a spectacular degree. My point it is the person driving the saw, not the saw that makes the final product.

I like my LN saw, as I got the spine engraved with acanthus leaves and such, it makes me smile every time I pick it up and use it. That makes the job less of a chore and more of a pleasure; that in itself makes the job go smoother IMHO.

Have fun and good luck - hope this helps -

Dave B

Thank you, it does. I'm not sure if I need my saws to make me happy, I feel that way about planes but saws not so much. maybe it's because I haven't ever used a nice one.
I'm thinking maybe getting a few different Zona saws and going with that. no sharpening and I love the one super fine zona saw I have. if that works out it would be amazing.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Matthew

I have both the LN 15 ppi (the original version, based on the IT saw) and the Gramercy dovetail saw. The Gramercy is reviewed here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GramercyDovetailSaw.html

I doubt that you would be unhappy with either. They are both excellent. They do, however, feel different from each other. The LN has a thick, solid handle and feels like a solid, powerful saw and powers its way through the wood. The Gramercy is light and nimble, and it feels like a wand that you wave at the wood, which then falls away in front of you.

Which is your style?

Sharpening? Dave is correct. It is not difficult. Get a good visor to magnify the teeth, and use a decent file. Just touch up the teeth as soon as they feel a little dull.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Honestly - I have no idea what my style is! I like to feel that I'm in control of whats going on with a tool, so I guess LN, but I could get used to almost anything. I decided if I get these saw's and not just Zona saws I'll go with LN, the price is right and they are beauts.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If you go with the Zona saws, I'd recommend staying with something on the coarser side of their spectrum - I believe they have 14 and 16 TPI models - when I first started doing this sort of stuff, I had some Zona saw I tried to use for this sort of thing, but it was one of their saw more suited to model making - I don't know if the TPI was labelled, but it was something like 32 or 42 TPI and it was a ridiculous idea to try and make carcase dovetails with it.

I would assume you know this, of course, Matt, but thought it worth mentioning in case others come across this thread in the future - I know I'm not the only beginner to have grabbed an overly fine tooth saw from somewhere without knowing much about it and been a little stumped.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Actually.. - thanks :o
I kinda knew but I've only used Japanese saws so wasn't sure . . . . I added 14, 24 and 32 tpi to my cart because their site says some woodworker endorses 32tpi is for dovetails! I thought it was a little weird but what do I know.... now I changed it to just 14 and 24 and added a flush cut saw too.