Need suggestions for mortise chisel

[Scott Stewart]

So today I decided to get off the pot and order a mortise chisel. My first choice was a Ray Isles from TFWW. Frustratingly, TFWW is out and has no idea when they will get them back in.

Therefore I need to decide on a mortise chisel. I've looked at vintage, but they all seem to be off a significant amount from their marked size. Anyone have experience with LN's? With the Sorby's no one seems to really love them, they seem to be rated as good enough or less than desirable from various posters.

If anyone has any other suggestions (I do want a true imperial 1/4" chisel), I would be happy to listen.

Thanks,

Scott

[Brian Holcombe]

Scott, having basically run into the same situation with the ray iles chisels I went with Lie Nielsen, they work quite nicely.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

For the money, I have to say I've been quite pleased with the Narex mortise chisels I got from Lee Valley - it has some similar features to a traditional pigsticker that make it nice to use - the large handle is somewhat oval-ish and oriented so as to give a physical feedback cue, the blade is quite stout, and slightly trapezoidal in nature to help keep from getting stuck, (and the sharp lands help scrape the sides a bit if needed by rocking the chisel in the mortise). The blade is also ever so slightly narrower away from the cutting edge so things are less likely to get stuck. For mortise work, I prefer a larger handle like this to a more cabinet-chisel type handle on the Lie Nielsen ones. I have a few of these, and had only one chisel (the 1/2") that gave me any real problems - the edge failed a bit prematurely; I ground back a bit and rehoned and haven't had any problems since. I've used the 1/4" quite a bit and been very pleased with it, especially given how cheap it was. Just remember to hone a secondary bevel before use - they come ground at 25 degrees, which helps the long bevel penetrate deeply without wedging, but you need a steeper bevel at the very tip to stand up to heavy use.

[Daniel Rode]

I just got a 1/4" Narex mortise chisel. I haven't use it yet but I was impressed with the quality considering it only cost a fraction of the LN.

[Richard Shaefer]

don't get the LN chisels. they are the sash style socket mortise chisels and not meant for heavy work. odds are good that when you drive a 3/8" chisel into a 3/8" wide hole, you'll pull back on the handle and leave the chisel end wedged in the hole. It's frustrating as hell.

Get a good set of tang mortise chisels like the pigsticker style or Narex chisels from LV. wasting out a mortise is not delciate work. mortise chisels are a brutal tool for fast waste removal. they're not meant to be scalpels. you want something you can swing at with a mallet without worrying about damaging the handle or ruining the resale value

[Jim Koepke]

I've looked at vintage, but they all seem to be off a significant amount from their marked size.

Not sure if I have done an accurate measure on mine. Usually the mortise gauge is set to the chisel and everything goes from there.

One problem with vintage in my case was the need to make new handles. Socket chisels are easy. My first attempts at tanged chisels was with mortise chisels and left a lot to be desired. Though my understanding of how to do this has improved.

I am also a fan of the mortise chisels that have a taper from the cutting edge to the top edge.

Some folks prefer the "registered" or straight edged mortise chisels.

My usual offer stands, if you are in my area you are welcome to come have a test drive with my mortising chisels.


mortise chisels are a brutal tool for fast waste removal. they're not meant to be scalpels. you want something you can swing at with a mallet without worrying about damaging the handle or ruining the resale value

I have mentioned my system of describing the strength of my blows with a mallet and have received a touch of heat for "walloping and whaling away" on mortise chisels. If you want to cut a few mortises before the day is done you can't be tap dancing with the mallet on that big hunk o' iron. My big mallet is currently 24 ounces. I have some wood drying and an ash tree freshly taken down that has my hopes drifting towards making a mallet in the 36-40 ounce range.

jtk

[Scott Stewart]

Are the Narex's true 1/4"? I got the impression they were the metric equivalent.

[Scott M Perry]

Not to hijack, but I have a question: What is the importance, if you're chopping a mortise by hand, and later fitting a tenon by hand to that mortise, of the chisel being precisely the stated measurement? You're fitting the tenon to the hole; what's it matter if the hole is off one way or the other by a small amount?

Sorry if that's an ignorant query...

[Jim Koepke]

Not to hijack, but I have a question: What is the importance, if you're chopping a mortise by hand, and later fitting a tenon by hand to that mortise, of the chisel being precisely the stated measurement? You're fitting the tenon to the hole; what's it matter if the hole is off one way or the other by a small amount?

Sorry if that's an ignorant query...

Not a bad inquiry... Actually a good point I attempt to make in my post.

jtk

[Sean Hughto]

One answer, the OP may give another, is the need to have matches between tools. In this specific case the most likely issue would be matching the width of a groove you have plowed.

[Don Rogers]

I've recently purchased the 1/8" to 1/2" set of Narex mortise chisels and spent much time making a rotary holder for them but very little time actually using them. Will let you know later just how I feel about their performance. So far, I'm well pleased with their looks which indicates a certain amount of quality.

[Mike Holbrook]

I bought Koyamaichi mortising chisels from Tools from Japan. Although Fujikawa's would have worked fine. I went with 4.5 and 7.5 mm chisels. I also got a Chu-tataki-nomi (medium striking chisel), 30mm, for cleaning the long sides, or major stock removal work. I bought a used/auction 15mm Tataki Nomi to make bench mortises.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

One answer, the OP may give another, is the need to have matches between tools. In this specific case the most likely issue would be matching the width of a groove you have plowed.

Sean's got it here. I ground some of my plow irons on my cheap plow to match my mortises. It makes the mortise job mindlessly easy, because the groove from the plow helps align the mortise chisel. I've actually run a very shallow groove down a piece precisely for this reason, and then planed it off afterwards.

The other way around, on this work, of course, is to mortise before you plow, but depending on the size of the mortise, it can make for tough riding for the plough's skate - if the mortise is particularly different sized, or rather long, things can get snagged as you plow through.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Are the Narex's true 1/4"? I got the impression they were the metric equivalent.

I believe they are true, at least the ones from LV, (and I believe Rob has commented on this on this board before) but I'll go check mine in a few minutes.

My 1/4" measures .255 inches at the tip, .220 inches just before the bolster. (They taper ever so slightly over the length to keep things from getting stuck in deep mortises.)

My 3/8" measures .375" at the tip, and .335" just before the bolster.

The half inch is about .495" at the tip, but I ground that one down a fair bit - it wasn't the one I mentioned earlier that the edge failed earlier, (that was another size - I think the 5/16") but rather the one that hit a nail doing some work in the house . . .

[Daniel Rode]

That's interesting if true. I didn't measure mine yet. I just assumed it would be 6mm. Are the Narex bench chisels true imperial sizes as well?

In most cases it doesn't really matter but when combining power tool and hand tool work, having a 1/4" bit matched up to a 1/4" chisel is nice.

I believe they are true, at least the ones from LV, (and I believe Rob has commented on this on this board before) but I'll go check mine in a few minutes.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

That's interesting if true. I didn't measure mine yet. I just assumed it would be 6mm. Are the Narex bench chisels true imperial sizes as well?

In most cases it doesn't really matter but when combining power tool and hand tool work, having a 1/4" bit matched up to a 1/4" chisel is nice.

Daniel - just edited my previous post. They're close, but not spot on. Although my dial calipers are on the (very) cheap side. Given the subtle taper of the blades, even if they were spot on, they won't stay that way.

No idea on the bench chisels, but again, I thought LV had specified them this way; (or at least, I feel like I remember reading something to this effect) others may or may not have.

[Sean Hughto]

FWIW, for the hobbiest, I really would not obsess about tool slaving for mortise chisels. If you do ten big projects a year, it's a lot. If you forgo a benchtop mortiser in favor of chisels, you aren't in a hurry anyway, and the extra bits of effort to deal with slight variations in tools are not likely to be a big deal. If I was the OP, and I couldn't get the AIs, I'd buy the best old pigstickers I could find from an old tool deal or on ebay. Even ones with rough or no handles are fine because it's not hard to rehandle them. I suppose that if the old one you got ahold of was a bit big, it would pretty easy to stone it down to a perfect 1/4 or whatever as well.

[Mike Henderson]

I put together a set of Ward cast steel mortise (pigsticker) chisels but if I need to hand cut a mortise, I usually drill it out first and then trim it up. You can use bench chisels for that.

Mike

[I made handles for some of my pigstickers. The secret is to drill multiple holes as you go deeper into the handle (for the tang). So you start with a large drill bit, drill a little ways, then use a smaller drill bit, etc. until you get to the length of the tang. At one time I had a bunch of pigstickers of all different makers but eventually sold all except the Wards.

Here's some pictures of the chisels. The sizes are 1/8" + 1/32" (meaning that the chisel is 1/32" larger than 1/8"), 3/16" + 1/64", 1/4" + 1/64", 3/8' + 1/128", 3/8" exactly, and 1/2" + 1/64"

286238286239

[Pedro Reyes]

Not knowing better I got one at woodcraft, figured a 1/4" was going to cover most of my needs, and it does. It is a Sorby, and works well.

Then an opportunity came to buy 6 pig stickers from England, good deal. These are non-exact sizes but there is one a tad shy of 1/4" and one a tad proud of 1/4", like someone has said, what does it matter? Unless you want to match a groove, but these cases are not as common as a simple mortise, then I could argue that some people simply use a regular chisel.

If we are buying 4/4 and end up with a board that is 21/32 or 27/32, then who cares if it is not 1/4", as if the imperial system made sense anyway ;-). I almost always use the pig stickers, can;t remember which one I use more, the thin 1/4 or the fat 1/4, I guess depends on which side of 3/4 my stock ends up at.

/p

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Then an opportunity came to buy 6 pig stickers from England, good deal. These are non-exact sizes but there is one a tad shy of 1/4" and one a tad proud of 1/4", like someone has said, what does it matter? Unless you want to match a groove, but these cases are not as common as a simple mortise, then I could argue that some people simply use a regular chisel.


Well, then you go further down the slope and start getting vintage plow planes, and realize your irons a tad shy and a tad proud of 1/4" inch as well . . . of course not quite by the same amount, so you grind one to match . . .

[Pedro Reyes]

Well, then you go further down the slope and start getting vintage plow planes, and realize your irons a tad shy and a tad proud of 1/4" inch as well . . . of course not quite by the same amount, so you grind one to match . . .

I drew a line, and today I have been 7 years clean!

From UK antique dealers anyway :-), and I could have said the same thing about the bay, but recently I saw some 3-1/8 square of Beech, 12" long that begged to become a coffin smother, I have never made a plane so I'll cut my teeth on cherry first.

/p

[Warren Mickley]

The mortise chisels do not have to be an exact size. Nor do they have to match a plough iron. In looking at period work we can often see that the mortise was made first and is slightly different from the groove. For precision work, it is best to mark the tenon and the mortise with the same gauge setting and make them before ploughing a groove. Trying to match the groove exactly to the mortise introduces error.

I have made about five thousand mortises with the boxwood handled Sorby chisels. They are adequate. I think the joiner's chisels ("pigstickers") are heavy for cabinet work. The LN have too small a handle. The Narex chisels seem like a good deal.

[Brian Holcombe]

don't get the LN chisels. they are the sash style socket mortise chisels and not meant for heavy work. odds are good that when you drive a 3/8" chisel into a 3/8" wide hole, you'll pull back on the handle and leave the chisel end wedged in the hole. It's frustrating as hell.

Get a good set of tang mortise chisels like the pigsticker style or Narex chisels from LV. wasting out a mortise is not delciate work. mortise chisels are a brutal tool for fast waste removal. they're not meant to be scalpels. you want something you can swing at with a mallet without worrying about damaging the handle or ruining the resale value

Cut with lie Nielsen mortise chisels;

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/1668CFDB-BA4F-43AD-88A8-088D0A5A012F_zps0ywp0cl8.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/9C8B7BB0-E402-40A9-A1E5-1DE926CB21B9_zpsfi88slbf.jpg

[David Weaver]

The Ray Iles chisels are the best I've used, but you do have to be able to sharpen them ,and you have to actually be able to get them.

I sold mine somewhat stupidly, but still have a nice set of miyanaga japanese mortise chisels that are every bit as tough as the RI and much smaller. They are alarmingly tough little chisels (I am not making a recommendation that someone should buy them, though, they are expensive and someone sold me the set of 4 for less than half of new price).

I could cut mortises faster with the RI chisels, though, just a little bit, and they have such a nice long thin primary that they are never tight in a mortise like you might expect with a large chisel.

[Jim R Edwards]

I have been very happy with Narex

[John Sanford]

I have a pair of the Sorbys (round handle, not octagon) and have fairly recently received a pair of the Ray Iles. I've used the Sorbys quite a bit on small mortises, and on some larger mortises, haven't used the RIs yet. The RIs are simply massive in comparison to the Sorbys. Everytime I look at them, I want to grab one and head out into the woods tracking a boar.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a mixed collection of Ray Iles and vintage English Oval Bolstered mortice chisels. The 1/4" RI get most use, and the D2 steel is an upgrade on the vintage tool steel, however I have never felt let down by them.

I did try Japanese mortice chisels out over a couple of years about a decade ago. I found these both too short and the primary bevels tended to be too high (35 degrees) for penetrating the wood. The OBM types have a 20 degree primary bevel and a 35 degree secondary, making entry easier and still retaining durability.

I have at times wanted a shorter mortice chisel for more shallow, delicate work, and made up a couple out of HSS sections.

Paul Sellers' method is ideal for sharpening the OBM chisels.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/OBMC1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Anthony Moumar]

I also have the Narex mortice chisel and like them. Narex make them in both proper metric and proper imperial sizes not nominal sizes like a lot of other manufacturers. LV only sell the imperial sized ones so if your buying from them your good. If you get them from somewhere elsewhere might be a good idea to ask. As other have said the chisel size shouldn't matter to much anyway. I have metric blades from my plough plane and imperial mortice chisels and I've never had problems.

I put a 35 degree micro bevel on my Narex mortice chisels and Feel like the have good edge retention. Most of my projects have 10 or less mortices. If I sharpen the chisel before I start it's usually good for the whole project. The handles might be a bit big if you have small hands but I find them quite comfortable.

[Rob Luter]

I have the LN mortise chisels and have no complaints whatsoever. They are plenty stout for my needs.

[Don Rogers]

Sean's got it here. I ground some of my plow irons on my cheap plow to match my mortises. It makes the mortise job mindlessly easy, because the groove from the plow helps align the mortise chisel. I've actually run a very shallow groove down a piece precisely for this reason, and then planed it off afterwards.

The other way around, on this work, of course, is to mortise before you plow, but depending on the size of the mortise, it can make for tough riding for the plough's skate - if the mortise is particularly different sized, or rather long, things can get snagged as you plow through.

Great idea. Plowing a very shallow grove will help me keep the mortise sodes straight.

[Bill Rhodus]

The point Josh made about plowing a shallow groove to position the mortice can be an important one in some circumstances. This can speed up layout and allows you to make a heavy cut right away rather than an initial shallow cut to reduce tear out. I sold some pig stickers and bought the Narex based upon the quality of their bench chisels and have not been disappointed. The bulk of woodworkers could buy a 1/4 and 5/16 Narex mortice chisel and forget about this issue so they could focus on building something.

[Sean Hughto]

Perhaps I missed a post here, but I never heard about a plowing a groove to start a mortise. It might be a good practice mind you, but what I was talking about, and thought Josh was talking about is that a very common use of m&t is in frame and panel construction - and there you need a groove for the panel - it is easiest to just plow the length of the rails and stiles, chop your mortises and cut your tenons in the rails in such a way so as to fill any goove the might show on the stile members at the top and bottom.

[Adam Cruea]

If you're dead-set on getting a new mortise chisel and it being Ray Isles, I can say with certainty that TFWW is very good about holding the stock they do get aside. It might take a while, but months can pass and they'll remember to send you things.

I had to get a replacement for my 1/2" mortiser. It was ever-so-slightly curved, so that when you put it down and went to whack the bolster, it was tilted slightly to the right and it annoyed me to no end. I mentioned this almost a year after I got the chisel (I tried to put up with this, but just couldn't) and TFWW ended up replacing it. I mentioned it before Christmas, I think, that it was off, and just got a replacement maybe 2 weeks ago.

Anyway, long story short, great business and they will keep their word. And the RI mortise chisels rock. I used the 1/2" that got replaced for hogging out all the mortises on my hickory work bench. 16 in all, ranging from 1 1/2" deep to 3 3/4" through-mortises. That hickory chewed up the D2 and took some insane chunks out of it, that's for sure.

[Derek Cohen]

Just for reference, I used my LN #49 to create T & G boards for the back of a pair of chests, and then retained the settings for the groove in the frame.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheCompletedChests_html_57e72fc2.jpg

When it came to chopping the mortices (for the ends) in the groove, I discovered that the groove was a non-standard size ... one third of ½” … which is … well, it is more than a 1/8” and less than a ¼” chisel. Luckily the friendly salvage yard also had a bin of unused ¼” mortice chisels ($5 each). I grabbed one and ground the sides until it was a perfect fit for the #49 groove (the sides were also relieved to a slight trapezoid). These did a great job.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheCompletedChests_html_447be8b2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Gary Muto]

As stated previously, the Narex Chisels from Lee Valley are true to inch measurements. I don't remember my exact measurements but I remember that they matched, dare I say... my router bits. :o

Those Chisels also have black wooden handles. Some complain about the handle fit. I guess they are a little on the large side but they don't bother me. my hands are probably larger than average.

[Bill Rhodus]

Derek, this is similar to what I was referring to in my previous post, however, a much shallower groove and using my plow which has standard irons to match the mortice chisel. After having done the groove/mortice in your post, do you see yourself using your plow to reference mortices in some circumstances or were you "turned off" by the mismatch issue?

[Jim Leslie]

The only mortise chisel I have is a 3/8" LN. Bashed out a LOT of mortises with it without any issue at all.

[Jim Sevey]

I bought the set of Narex mortise chisels several months ago. I have no experience with other brands but I am happy with these chisels. Seem to hold an adge well. About 15 minutes ago I opened the box and took out my new Narex left and right skew chisels for cleaning out half-blind dovetails. They look to be the same quality. Good value for the price.

[Darren Brewster]

I'll just through my hat into the ring for the Narex mortise chisels. I think they are a good size for furniture work, keep a decent edge after you hone though the factory bevel a little way, and the price can't be beat.

[Graham Haydon]

"I'll just through my hat into the ring for the Narex mortise chisels. I think they are a good size for furniture work, keep a decent edge after you hone though the factory bevel a little way, and the price can't be beat."

Could not of put it better Darren.

[Glenn Samuels]

I've got a set of these chisels from Germany that seem to be made very well:

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Set-of-Four-Mortise-Chisels-Extra-Strong-Made-in-Germany/productinfo/101-0605/

[peter gagliardi]

I didn't see them mentioned, but you should at least look at the excellent chisels by Barr Tools in Idaho. They are quite robust, and a dream to sharpen. They are a socket style like the Lie-Nielsen, but unlike Lie-Nielsen, they actually KNOW how to make a PROPER socket to receive the handle, and quite importantly, it keeps the handle secure!
These can be used for rough and fine work, and take and hold a wicked edge!
However, they are not bargain basement priced tools, they ARE worth every penny they cost!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Unless the plow is quite deep, it won't really help you steer the cuts so much as just help you start them in the right place when mortising. That's half the battle, of course.

I have actually just taken a few swipes with the plow to start my mortise when I had the plow set up, that's what I was kind of mentioning - it just makes setting the first strikes of the mortise chisel easier, giving your chisel something to register in, which helps when working with a long chisel. And if you want a clean mortise, makes it a little easier. Not something I'd go out of my way for, but since the plane was there, I did it, and then cleaned the "micro-groove" away with a few swipes of the jack plane after the mortise was done. Kind of an odd-ball way of doing it. Like Sean says, really one normally only does this when working in F&P construction.

[Adam Cruea]

I've got a set of these chisels from Germany that seem to be made very well:

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Set-of-Four-Mortise-Chisels-Extra-Strong-Made-in-Germany/productinfo/101-0605/

Dumb question; ever used a mortise chisel without a leather washer? I'm curious how much force the leather absorbs on strong blows.

[Mike Henderson]

Dumb question; ever used a mortise chisel without a leather washer? I'm curious how much force the leather absorbs on strong blows.
Pigstickers do not have a leather washer. Leather washers seem to only be used on some chisels, both regular bench chisels and mortise chisels.

Mike

[Adam Cruea]

Pigstickers do not have a leather washer. Leather washers seem to only be used on some chisels, both regular bench chisels and mortise chisels.

Mike

I know. I have a couple of pigstickers. :)

If you check the link Glenn posted though, the chisels have a leather washer. I'm curious how much they absorb.