Suehiro Sharpening stones & Camellia oil

[Mike Holbrook]

I have had some problems with allergic skin reactions with my hands. I know abrasive slurry materials mixed with metals and water can cause problems. I discovered stones on Tools from Japan, Suehiro Dual-Stones, that are termed "oilstones". The information states that these stones can be used with oils and specifically mentions Camellia oil.

Camellia oil is also commonly used for skin issues including eczema and psoriasis...I am wondering if any fellow posters may have experience using these stones with Camellia oil? I sent Stuart a note about stones but I know he is fighting a backlog from some taxes changes in Japan. I found these stones on the TFJ site after I had sent Stuart a message. I will ask his opinion/ideas, but I also know he posts here. I thought this information might be of interest to other posters too so now we have a thread...

[Steve Voigt]

It sounds really interesting, but I notice the price of the full-size 8000 grit is almost $200 before shipping from Japan. Too bad, because the idea is intriguing.
I have never understood why I couldn't buy a very fine grit aluminum oxide oilstone, like an india stone but much finer. My indias are dirt cheap, cut aggressively, and rarely need flattening.

[Mike Holbrook]

Steve, do you use oil on the India stones? Actually there are 3-4 different types and sizes of Suehiro Dual-Stones, smaller 500 stones start at $22.86, 6,000 $45.72. The larger stones start at around $73. There are several other factors that may come into play too. The information at Tools from Japan says these stones work like stones several thousand grit higher, and last longer too. The information also suggests that one stone may be able to reshape and polish. "As an example, the #1000 grit Dual Stone will deliver and edge equivalent to a stone in the #3000-5000 range, if the stone is allowed to work thoroughly".

William Ng has a video on YouTube about sharpening card scrapers. He uses a 1,000 grit stone then goes to a 4,000 grit stone to sharpen and polish his scrapers. Ng calls the 4,000 stone a polishing stone, which may be what these are. Ng says the 4,000 polishes like a regular 8,000 to 16,000 stone.

[Steve Voigt]

Hey Mike,
Yes, I use oil on my Indias and Ark. stone.
I was just comparing the prices to 8 x 3 stones, which is what I use for most things. You can get an 8 x 3 black or trans ark for about $100; I got mine used for about $80. The #1 size of the Suehiros, which is almost 8 x 3, doesn't come in 4000 grit, but the 6000 is approx $165, and the 8000 is about $200, before shipping. So, definitely more expensive.
Still, if you get some, I'd love to find out how they work for you.

Steve

[David Weaver]

Do you have issues with regular mineral oil? I don't, and I have fairly sensitive skin. What does your menu of steels look like?

I haven't used those stones - they came out after I had already gone a different direction toward simpler steel and all natural stones.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have an Ark. stone I bought over 40 years ago Steve, which I used with oil. I will revisit it's use. I guess a point I left out regarding my latest stone search is I have been thinking about smaller/different stones that I may want to take to some of the tools I am using for green woodworking. It seems to me there is the implication that the stones mentioned above work like a much higher grit stone, which may translate into the 8,000 stone being equivalent to something above a 13,000, maybe even more like two stones in one "Dual-Stones". If this is true one might have to equate even a 6,000 Dual Stone to a 13,000 and a 6,000 which comes much closer to justifying the cost. Still not sure if I might be expecting too much.

David, I have not experimented with mineral oil or Camellia oil on my hands yet. I have been more into avoiding problems than testing for them. I have found that natural oils like Almond, Avocado and Olive oil seem to help, so Camellia sounds like it might be worth the risk. I avoid creams or oils with fragrance, alcohol or cleaning/scouring agents like the plague. I am very careful with the stones I use now, using them for short periods, washing and then oiling my hands when I use them. I often wear rubber or other synthetic gloves but I try not to wear those for too long. I have a large variety of steels I deal with for woodworking and property maintenance: high carbon, HSS, new powdered steels, A2, PM-V11. I have recently acquired tools forged in Sweden, I think they use simple high carbon steels, unless ball bearing steel is something peculiar.

[Dave Cullen]

I have a bottle of camellia oil that I use for wiping saw blades and chisels with. It has good rust protection properties and I think they use it in Japan on Samuri swords. It's also used in the cosmetics industry, supposedly an antioxidant and is used in soaps and shampoos. People can have allergies to virtually anything, but camellia oil would certainly be safe for most people.

Normal honing oils are refined mineral oil. I've never used camellia on my Arkensas stones, but I'm sure it would work.

[Darren Brewster]

I like baby oil. It is just light mineral oil (seems very thin) with scent and aloe vera. Cheap, and the bottle has a nice applicator to get just the right amount. It also doesn't hurt that we had some in the house anyway for our baby that we didn't really use.

[Dave Beauchesne]

FWIW, my LN Camelia oil gets gummy after a few months if there is a little extra on a plane sole or blade.
I wondered why they switched to Jojoba oil; forgot to ask at the last hand tool event.
I guess what I am saying, if it gets gummy on metal, what will it do to a stone??
Good question; will see what others have to say.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

It also doesn't hurt that we had some in the house anyway for our baby that we didn't really use.

Wait, the baby or the oil? ;)


....

I think Camellia oil getting gunky is also going to depend on whether you've got actual Camellia oil or just mineral oil with some added Camellia essence or something - I don't know what some of the tool places sell, but looking at the local co-op, some of the Jojoba and Camellia oil is really just mineral oil with some added stuff to it, not pure stuff. The price should probably tell you the difference.

[Mike Holbrook]

I think we are on the right track. I am looking at a spray bottle of "Camellia Oil", with Japanese on the label. I bought it at Highland Woodworking to use on my tools. According to the label this Camellia oil contains liquid paraffin, which I imagine could get sticky but might also provide some protective, lubricating functions as well. A few quick search I did for Camellia oil for skin reveals that a good portion of products sold for this purpose are pure Camellia oil.

A search on Camellia oil for cooking landed...

"Camellia oil has been the cooking oil of choice for the Southern provinces of China and throughout Japan for many years. It is also known as tea seed oil because it is made by cold pressing the seeds of various tea plants. It is a high quality cooking oil with a very mild sweet scent and a nutty, smokey natural flavor, and it remains stable at very high temperatures. It's smoke point is at 485 degrees Fahrenheit, making it a smoke free cooking oil for most applications.

It also has many health benefits, including the reduction of bad cholesterol. Therefore, it is good for the cardiovascular system. It also promotes wellness because it combines with free radicals to become peroxide lipids in the body, resistant to oxidation. The fatty acid content is primarily in the form of monounsaturated oleic acid. It is also a good source of other omega three, six, and nine fatty acids as well as vitamin E, vitamin A, vitamin B, and other polyphenols. Its digestive absorption rate is 97 percent which is much higher than other cooking oils.

For cooking, camellia oil can generally be substituted for olive oil and it is increasingly taking on that role in the United States where obesity is a growing problem. It is also used extensively in cosmetic products because it has many wonderful properties for excellent skin care. You can usually cook with camellia oil by using a single tablespoon of the product in your pan. It is also good as a salad dressing in place of olive oil. Camellia oil is an excellent cooking oil that has a myriad of health benefits that will also maintain and protect your skin and hair. It is ideal for gourmet cooking because of its light taste, and it is a natural green product!"

Maybe it became a Japanese tool protecting product simply because it is so common.

[Stanley Covington]

I live in Tokyo. Camellia oil is not commonly available for cooking over here. I know it is used in expensive restaurants for deep frying tenpura, but you can't buy it at the supermarket.

It is used over here for makeup, and haircare products. I am told by those around at the time that it was used as motor oil when petroleum products were difficult to procure During WWII.

Actual camellia oil can be bought for rust protection for tools in a few locations here in Tokyo. Tokyu Hands and Suiheiya Shoten both carry real tsubaki abura (camellia oil). The real thing is labeled as 100% Camellia Oil. I have a glass bottle of it here in the house.

But most camellia oil sold for rust prevention both here and in the US is actually mineral oil with camellia oil scent added. This product frequently has a sword printed on the container, suggesting it is used for swords. Over here the same product is sold as "Hamono Tsubaki" (刃物椿）meaning "edged tool camellia" and not as real camellia oil. This is deceptive packaging, but not illegal, because nowhere does it claim to be actual camellia oil, or list real camellia oil as an ingredient.

Nothing wrong with mineral oil. It is fine for rust protection. It does not harden with time or readily oxidize, does not normally cause allergic reactions, and when pure, can even be taken internally as a medicine (no, I am not suggesting you swallow the rust prevention oil sold as camellia oil), it is a great product with few liabilities for the retailer. But it is not real camellia oil. Do not be deceived and pay extra for it unless you like the smell.

Real camellia oil both hardens and oxidizes over time. That is bad for your tools. Of course, it is no longer used for rust prevention on valuable swords anymore now that better petroleum-based products are available.

Caveat Emptor

[Tony Wilkins]

I have the small drum set of the dual stones and have only used them with camellia oil. It works really well on my A2 and PMV11 blades. I'll probably get the full size stones at some point. Can't help with the skin reaction question. The drum set is cheap as chips so it would be worth a try if you're curious.

[Mike Holbrook]

Glad to hear Camellia oil has worked for you Tony. I use Renaissance Micro-Crystalline Wax as my tool preservative and lubricant. Although I understand the point that Camellia oil may not be the best substance to leave on tools long term that isn't what I am interested in. I am looking for a substance that will work as a short term stone lubricant, which works as well or better than water and also may be kinder to my skin and other body parts. I imagine water is the most common substance used on stones as a short term lubricant during sharpening. Of course, water is not good to leave on steels for even short periods. Water that contains considerable amounts of abrasive can abrade skin just like it does steel. Water is also a solvent and will carry off the oils in skin, particularly if there are abrasives helping. Many oils made for use in machines are designed to dissolve and carry away all sorts of crud and rust that may accumulate on moving steel parts. These oils certainly are not designed for skin contact and may cause even worse skin damage.

I have Industrial Nitrile gloves that I can and do wear, but it gets a little tiresome to put on and take off those tight fitting sweaty gloves every time I want to sharpen something. A search on mineral oil reveals that it is distilled from petroleum and is facing increased scrutiny for undesirable effects it may have on skin, vitamin absorption and irritating effects it may have on the respiratory tract.

I do wonder if Camelllia oil will harden into something more solid in stones over time, but I am less concerned about damaging stones than damaging my hands.

[Winton Applegate]

gets gummy

I am with Dave.
I WOULD AVOID PUTTING CAMELLIA ON A STONE.
I have it daily on my hands so no skin problems from it here.
I find my skin problems are exacerbated, I would go as far as say caused, by reactions to foods i put in my mouth and combined with winter time brought to a head. I say winter time not weather because the my hands never get very cold at all and are never expose because I work indoors exclusively.

PS: I don't really like camellia to protect my blades just to lube while cutting or planing because it is so compatible with finishes. For storage I prefer extremely light machine oil.

[Mike Holbrook]

The Tools from Japan text regarding Suehiro Dual-Stone's is where I got the idea of using Camelia oil on these stones. The information actually suggests using Camelia or another low viscosity cooking oil for sharpening blades which may contact food. The information also suggests removing the excess when the work is done. TFJ also explains that these stones are made by compressing the ingredients of a standard ceramic waterstone. It may be that the porosity of these stones is reduced to a point which may prevent absorption of cooking oils.

[Winton Applegate]

camellia oil sold for rust prevention both here and in the US is actually mineral oil with camellia oil scent added

Stanley Covington,

That is interesting and enlightening. I swear the last batch of "camellia oil" in the same spray bottle as I got in the past smelled like mineral oil . . . ish . . . and not like the stuff I bought years before that.
I wondered if they were just selling me baby oil now rather than the stuff that I got before that did gum up on the saws during storage.
Oh well.

For the high temp oil for cooking we use grape seed oil so not likely I will be looking for real, 100%, camellia oil for cooking etc.
What do you think of grape seed for cooking ?

Mike,

As far as the Renaissance wax for protecting steel in storage, as I understand it, wax may be more air and moisture permeable than oil and one is probably better off using thin oil like WD-40 or sewing machine oil etc. (gun oil ?) I don't do guns so I have no idea but seems like a likely source of protective oil for the saws.

[Dave Beauchesne]

[QUOTE=" As far as the Renaissance wax for protecting steel in storage, as I understand it, wax may be more air and moisture permeable than oil and one is probably better off using thin oil like WD-40 or sewing machine oil etc. (gun oil ?) I don't do guns so I have no idea but seems like a likely source of protective oil for the saws.[/QUOTE]

Winton:
I have used gun oil successfully ' for guns ' for decades. However, many contain silicone IIRC.

Just my 2 cents--

Dave B

[David Weaver]

Paste wax (if it's actually applied on everything) works better for long term storage than any light oil or especially than WD 40.

[Mike Holbrook]

Highland Woodworking says "Renaissance Wax was originally developed in association with the British Museum for restoration and protection of art treasures, and is a superb micro-crystalline polish ideal for use in the shop....Renaissance Wax lasts so long and works so well that even the most frugal woodworker will find it a genuine value. It is an excellent polishing agent for any wood or metal surface, leaving an extremely hard, thin coating of astonishing durability with excellent resistance to water, alcohol and fingerprints. Used on furniture, Renaissance Wax will be the toughest wax you've ever used. In fact, it's the only wax we know of that's likely to be as durable as the finish underneath, resisting staining and marring in any household or office setting."