Arrggg, Shop/house on hold

[Scott Coffelt]

Well, I knew it would be frustrating to build the house and shop, but I'd just like to be building it when the frustration starts. As many already know, I bought 2 acres last September and have ben working through the plans, getting a GC and construction loan, all have taken twice as long as I would have thought was reasonable, a few weeks back we finally were starting to make progress..... screatch... that sound you hear is it all coming to a stop. I got off the phone this week with the GC, he finally took everything in to the city for permits.... umm, they do not like the location of the shop in reagrds to the house, they want it farther away and in back of the house, I don't want it behind I want to see the nice treed yard I have when i am on my deck not the front of the shop. Even though I have 2 acres, effectly only half is buildable as I have a creek that runs through it. The septic system can only sit in one spot and it was modified to fit, thus i am very limited on how far back I can move the shop. The house angles and the rule has to do with what they call a parallel line rule, that pushes the shop back by about 20 feet, right into the edge of the septic. So now we have to fill paper work by July 15 to have it all reviewed and maybe get an exception which we won't have a ruling until August 15. Like I said arrrrg. I am willing to shrink my shop some, but not much. If they don't budge I may have to start over with selling the beautiful land or just stay where I am with a small 300sgft basement shop. So I had hoped to break ground in April and at best case it will be late August or never. Now the 8" jointer I was hoping on buying will have to wait until I have to go ahead. Man, this just stinks.

[Richard Wolf]

I feel your frustration, that sucks when stuff like that happens! How disappointing is it going to be to sell your land?

Richard

[lou sansone]

I don't know your specific situation, but when I built my shop ( you can search my name and find all about it ) I was going to have it closer to the house. In the end I put it way back about 250 feet from the house and it was really a good idea. keeps the noise away and it uses my property more fully. sometimes change is hard, but you may have blessing in disguise. think about it


lou

[Bob Noles]

Scott,

There are good reasons for these rules and planning people. I know it is frustrating, but it will save you heartaches and headaches down the road. Trust me on this one, they do know what they are doing, albeit a very slow and painful process, it is for your own good.

Good things come to those that are patient.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Scott......I had something similar happen with my new shop but minor in comparison. Outbuildings by local code can be withing 5' of the property line. My fences are 1' inside my property lines. I submitted the plans and they were rejected. Seems there is a major sewer distribution line that runs through my neighbor's yard just a few feet from my fence. End result, I had to build it 10' from my fence. Destroyed my sprinkler circuits.....all of them in the backyard. Reduced my useable backyard by 150 sq. ft.......but....I'm closing in on having the shop finished. Good luck with your decisions!

[Dev Emch]

Scott...

A couple of words in regard to this. First, its often the case where these guys dont quite understand what your doing. They have a fixed set of rules and all to often, large, free standing woodworking shops are just not something everyone wants so the rules are a bit vague.

So the first thing to do is to get the exact violations in writing citing the exact code that is being violated. BE POLITE BUT FIRM HERE! Then get them to provide what they envision as a perfect solution.

Then ask about and see if there is a local civil engineer/surveyor who has a reputation of getting things done.... "i.e. ram-rodding development proposals through planing commisions". Call him up and see what he might be able to so. Retain him if needed.

Temporaryily forget about any setback restrictions and see if the movement of structures can accommadate these planing guys. If so, how much land and what shape of land will it take to re-establish the setback restrictions. Then see if you can either buy the land outright or investigate the possibility of a land swap deal to restablish these setbacks. Of course, this will require both a re-plot of your property as well as a PIN survey. Note that PIN surveys need to be logged with the county or city recorder's office.

You might be able to do the affore mentioned trick and locate the property both in front of and off to the side of your main domacile structure.

As to your septic system, are you using the innovator style system with plastic half moons located in trenches or a classic stone leach field? Note that often you need 2X the space needed for a leach field. This is so that when the first field is clogged up, you can build a second field. Then the first field settles out and can be reused when the second field is no longer useable. So you will need to re-optimize the location and design of your septic system as needed. Make sure your using the innovator system as it yields one of the smallest leach fields needed.

Hope this all helps and best of luck...

[Steve Rowe]

I really like Dev's response. Excercise your private property owners rights. Unless you are violating some code or zoning requirement, encroaching on an easement or causing a problem for your neighbors, it shouldn't matter. The fact that some "planning commission" didn't like it is irrelevent. They should base their rejection or acceptance based on what the requirements are. The whims of some government agency does not constitute a requirement (even though they always think it does). They should state in writing what requirements are violated and you can then build an appeal based on how those requirements are satisfied (assuming they are). Contact your city council representative, alderman, or JP as appropriate, and get them on your side. They can apply pressure that you may not be able to by yourself.
Good luck,
Steve

[John Shuk]

Scott,

There are good reasons for these rules and planning people. I know it is frustrating, but it will save you heartaches and headaches down the road. Trust me on this one, they do know what they are doing, albeit a very slow and painful process, it is for your own good.

Good things come to those that are patient.
I have to respectfully disagree with you there Bob. Many people on these planning boards are laymen and follow arbritrary rules that they think of as correct 100 percent of the time. I'm not saying that is the case here but I would say you should question authority here. If you have a dream for how you want this to come out and it is not unreasonable then you should be able to make it happen. Just be persistant. I know how hard it can be. I built my house 4 years ago. If you have a little flexiblity and can afford to stick to your guns and wait a little while to hash it out then do it. Whatever happens don't take no as the first and final answer. I wish you the best.
john

[John Shuk]

Dev's right the innovator is a great solution for septic.

[Roy Wall]

Scott,

I was just last week I was wondering how the progess was going....I too thought you'd be started by now........AAArrrgggghhhhh is right:mad:

Hang in there bud!!! Can I buy you lunch???:)

[Dan Forman]

Scott---Sorry to hear of your dilemma. These things seldom go without a hitch, hope you get to do what you want.

Dan

[Martin Shupe]

Another choice for septic is the-I hope I get this right- aerobic system. Basically, I have a sewage treatment plant in my backyard. It is composed of a large concrete box, divided into 3 (or maybe 4) compartments, and buried behind the house. Then the grey water is disperse by 3 sprinkler heads that water the lawn. Only downside is the county requires an inspection every 3 months, so you have to pay someone $150 a year to tell you if you have enough chlorine in the last tank.

The good part is I didn't have to cut down trees to make a large septic field.

Something to consider.

[Bill Lewis]

Scott,

Hang in there. Your dreams will be realized and they will be worth it.
We went through quite an arduous process to get our home built, we were stuck in a rental (after selling) for 2.5 years instead of the 8 to 10 months we were planning for. I wouldn't want to go through it again, but in the end we are much better off for sticking with it.

[Jim Becker]

Scott, sorry to hear about your delays...I'm sure it's beyond disappointing. I do agree with those who suggest getting things in writing and specific to official regulations to insure that the issues raised are not merely "preferences" of the board rather than zoning requirements.

It could be worse...around here, nearly everyone needs to use sand mounds for septic rather than traditional drain fields. (We got lucky...) Many of those are actually in front lawns when it's a replacement...

[tim langford]

I would try to relax if you can. My mother-in-law always tells me to only get upset about the things I can control. Sounds like some of this is beyond your control.

[Scott Coffelt]

I have asked the GC to set up a meeting with them prior to the July 15 deadline so we can have a nice discussion, review all the facts and try to come up with something that will suit both. In general I am OK with delays, just venting really.

I am totally pleased with the septic design on the house, kep in mind that I want this to be something we basically ignore (or I mean forget its there basically). No pools for me, we have a water treatment plant about 5 miles from my home and it stinks. The mound system we'll have will be real nice, no skimping on it.

[Dev Emch]

Scott....

There is no private "fire and forget" septic solution. Every solution needs some sort of periodic maintainence.

A leach field is designed to get rid of water. You **DONT** want solids entering the field as this can clog it up in a hurry. A typical leach field will eventually fail because the drainage gravel in the bottom has been coated with septic plaque thereby preventing water from leaching downwards. As this plaque is biological, letting the field settle out for a few years will break it down and you can reuse the real estate. This is the logic behind having two leach field spaces.

The first stage in your system is the vault or septic tank. The current format for this is a 1000 gallon tank with a baffle dividing the two 500 gallon sections. Here, your solids settle out and are broken down by biological action into septic sludge. Depending on how many family members you have and what you municipal regulations require, this 1000 gallon tank needs to be pumped about once every 2 to 4 years. If it fills up and this septic sludge is allowed to exit the tank, it will begin to cause problems within your leach field.

In those systems that reuse waste water for garden use, please bear in mind that you cannot allow potty water to mix with say shower water or laundry water. These two sources have to be kept separate. This can reduce the load on your leach field significantly but your tank pumping schdule remains about the same.

The innovator system has now become mandated by code in our area. The big advantage is that you can install one of these systems for significantly less money. It also has the advantage of working more effectively. The older leach field designs often had huge excavation bills and had the ability to clog up and fail do to fine silt working its way into the stone fields.

Regardless of which system you use, bear in mind that you have to dispose of a given volume of solids per time unit. Even with biological septic concentration, you still have to call the honey wagen! So if anyone has any schemes to eliminate the honey wagen, please let us know about them. THANKS

Dev

[Chris Padilla]

Hang it there, Scott! Patience, persistance, and maybe even some vigilance are the keys here!

I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who said, "Talk softly...carry a big stick." Your "big stick" will be all the info you gather between now and the next hearing.

[Scott Coffelt]

Thanks, I know there is basic maintenance that does incur. My comment was more for the fact that I am not interested in a pool design. Thanks for the detailed response.

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Martin, you forgot to mention that you have a 1 or 2 hp (?) electric motor that runs 24/7. Just another thing to go wrong.

My soil would not support a standard septic system, but either an aerobic or dose system were options. I went with the dose system. I still have the leach field, but the second tank of the two tank system as a pump like a sump pump that only puts water in the leach field when the tank reaches a designated level. I already have two leach fields and I switch between them on January 1, and July 1. The dose system cost a whole $500 more than an aerobic. It has already paid for the extra cost by not needing the "required inspections" and ca ca.

[Martin Shupe]

Hi Martin, you forgot to mention that you have a 1 or 2 hp (?) electric motor that runs 24/7. Just another thing to go wrong.

My soil would not support a standard septic system, but either an aerobic or dose system were options. I went with the dose system. I still have the leach field, but the second tank of the two tank system as a pump like a sump pump that only puts water in the leach field when the tank reaches a designated level. I already have two leach fields and I switch between them on January 1, and July 1. The dose system cost a whole $500 more than an aerobic. It has already paid for the extra cost by not needing the "required inspections" and ca ca.

Ken, I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about how it all works. Not sure what you mean by a dose system, but if I could skip the inspection cost, that sounds great! Mine has 4 tanks (and 4 concrete lids, well disguised in my wife's flower bed), and a timer that you can set to tell it when to spray the grey water on the lawn. I have to put a couple chlorine tabs in the last tank every two weeks or so. That's about the extent of my knowledge. I picked it over the "traditional" field, because I didn't want them killing my pecan trees with a huge septic field.

[Dev Emch]

Nothing like building a real woodworking shop to force one to learn all the new stuff!

First of all, what is meant by a drose system? What is meant by a pool system?

Martin...

Let me get this straight. In your system, the potty water and *other* water are not isolated at the point of collection and actually enter into this four tank affair? At the end, you use Clorine pills and then use the excess water to water your plantings? This one is new to me.

As far as the field killing off your trees. The innovator system is installed in a series of back hoe dug ditches which is what I love about this system. As I recall, the ditches are dug 36 inches deep and the width of a standard back hoe bucket. Unlike the older designs which required one to dig a swimming pool sized hole. I also know how many feet of ditch I need and I can have some degree of freedom in how I lay out that ditch. You must be living in a real pecan forrest.

[Jim Andrew]

Welcome to the world of planning and zoning. My experience with the board is that you have to be a certified communist to qualify for the board. Forget
property rights.

[Martin Shupe]

Nothing like building a real woodworking shop to force one to learn all the new stuff!

First of all, what is meant by a drose system? What is meant by a pool system?

Martin...

Let me get this straight. In your system, the potty water and *other* water are not isolated at the point of collection and actually enter into this four tank affair? At the end, you use Clorine pills and then use the excess water to water your plantings? This one is new to me.

As far as the field killing off your trees. The innovator system is installed in a series of back hoe dug ditches which is what I love about this system. As I recall, the ditches are dug 36 inches deep and the width of a standard back hoe bucket. Unlike the older designs which required one to dig a swimming pool sized hole. I also know how many feet of ditch I need and I can have some degree of freedom in how I lay out that ditch. You must be living in a real pecan forrest.

Dev,

Everything goes into one side of the buried 4 cell cement tank. The bacteria do their thing, mix in a little air, put a couple chlorine pills in the last tank, and at the end of the cycle you get "grey water". I would not drink it, but safe enough to sprinkle your lawn. If the grey water starts to smell, something is wrong with the system. It does need to be sucked out once every four years. That's the extent of my knowledge. We have 3 full baths, and 3 sprinkler heads. No septic field, but the tank is about 5 by 16 feet, buried in the ground right behind the house.

My yard had 23 trees, we took down 4 to build the house. I will take down 4 more when I build the hangar/shop. The community is built on an old orchard, parts of which are still being used commercially.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I agree John. Here in Dallas the planning folks and permit offices are filled with people who have no clue. You hear many different stories depending on who you talk to and building anything other than cookie cutter houses can be tricky. I also agree with the idea of a ramrodder on your team. I like having the shop close by the house too!

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!