When did they ever build decent houses?

[Phil Thien]

Working on my daughter's 50-60 year-old home today fitting a new storm door to a poorly fitted front door. Nothing terribly much securing entry door. Fixed that w/ some milled-up blocking and shims (and Tapcons, love Tapcons).

But I've run into the same sort of carp on my 80-YO house, on real old houses (grew up in a house over 120 years old), to newer homes.

I don't think I've ever worked on a house that wasn't a giant piece of carp, a complete waste of otherwise decent materials. I swear the carpenters are always in a hurry looking for the easy way out.

[Jamie Buxton]

So this 120-year-old building was junk? Wouldn't somebody have to have done something right to get it to last that long?

[Tom M King]

Not all of us. The last new house I built was in 2006. I built new houses for 33 years. Never had a callback. Never used a prehung door or bought cabinets. Look on my roofing page to see one I built. All the buyers that still own any of these houses are still my good friends. I never kept one for over two weeks once I put a price on it, but after the one in '06, I figured that all the other builders were smarter than me, so I got out of building new houses, and have been redoing really old ones since.

Even on the old houses I work on that are over 200 years old, I find mistakes, or at least things that could have been done better very simply, almost every day. Fast and cheap have been the two main goals in building houses for as long as I've seen. I try my best to avoid either.

My goal was to start one in the Fall, finish the inside over the Winter, dress up the outside and sell it in the Spring, and play on the lake in the Summer. It worked pretty good until so many got too greedy.

There was a market for a well made house. I don't know that there is now. I
never even used a real estate agent, but simply put a sign out front and people would stop by. One guy spent two hours looking one over, drove off but didn't get quite out of sight, came back and wrote me a check. I never negotiated on price.

I would invite you to go open and shut any door that I ever hung. I don't mind saying that I'm a Carpenter, although I did all of it, and not only carpentry.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Carpentry vs cabinetry. A woodworker is never going to think profitable carpentry is particularly acceptable. Working on an 80 year old building for the woodshop remodel, and holy carp, I hear ya. ;)

[Stephen Musial]

I've worked on houses from pre-civil war to ones built last year. Some were carp as you say and others were pure craftsmanship. Most of the old pieces of carp have fallen down and a lot of the new ones are already on their way. However, you have to remember that a lot of the houses that were built were using the developing technologies and new practices of the times. Stick framing is relatively new and older houses reflect builders learning as they went.

Don't forget to take into account expansive clay soils that builders didn't understand, years of droughts and overly wet seasons which have caused the foundations to move and subsequently the house to settle. It's been my experience that if it has horse hair plaster and is still standing, it was built well. If it was built after WWII, it's a crapshoot.

[Jim Andrew]

I did my 30 years in construction, longer I was in it the sicker I got of subcontractors, got so I just built my own from start to finish. Got really sick of plumbers, seems like as
they are licensed, so I can't run them off the job and do it myself, they think they can get by with any kind of carp work. Last house I did, they spilled their purple primer in my whirlpool tub, then when I was finishing up found a big stain of purple in the bottom of the tub, under the cardboard protector, and the plumber lied and said he didn't use anything that would stain that tub. I had to have the whole bottom ground down and refinished. Would have to say that most of the guys in construction are losers, and many are dopers that have been fired from any good job available, and all that is left to them is construction.

[Mike Henderson]

There are good contractors and they use good subs. They're more expensive but they build quality. As one good contractor told me, "There's no secret to this business. Show up on time, do a good job, and clean up when you finish." He was right and he had more business than he could handle.

Mike

[Phil Thien]

There are good contractors and they use good subs. They're more expensive but they build quality. As one good contractor told me, "There's no secret to this business. Show up on time, do a good job, and clean up when you finish." He was right and he had more business than he could handle.

Mike

Unfortunately the good contractors ARE expensive. But many of the worst are just as expensive. Cost is just no guarantee of quality.

[Keith Hankins]

Well, depends on the builder. There have been crap carpenters as long as they've been cutting trees. My Dad and his 10 brothes built most of the homes where I grew up. The houses were all made very well. The walls were made of red oak. I can still remember trying to patch a piece of drywall in my moms house and after bending 4 drywall nails and breaking 2 screws, figured out I had to predrill and use machine screws. I'm an old man now, and every now and then still go home and look around. All those houses are small compared to today's McMansions, but they are all still standing and doing well. I think the wood thing was in the blood.

[David Kumm]

I blame the homeowner. For many it is the single largest purchase of their lives yet not many have a clue of the various structural choices or a clue as to separating the lipstick from the pig. No homework, no study, no reward. They then spend their lives believing the China should rattle in the cabinet when they walk through a room. Dave

[Mike Henderson]

Unfortunately the good contractors ARE expensive. But many of the worse are just as expensive. Cost is just no guarantee of quality.
Yes, I was not suggesting that you go with the most expensive contractor and hope for the best. Talk to others who have had work done. Most contractors who build houses also do remodeling. If you know people who know good work and they have been satisfied with their contractor, call that person and talk with them.

Best if you can find two contractors who are recommended by people who know good work. Talk with both and see which one you like best. You're going to live with that person for a long time if you're going to build a house or do a major remodel.

Mike

[Phil Thien]

BTW, I know there are fantastic contractors that are members here. I'm not lumping you guys in. More than anyone, in fact, you guys should know the kind of stuff I see as I work on several houses that belong to family and friends.

[Rick Potter]

I added 1100 feet onto a tract house, making the house essentially a duplex, and the daughter and family moved in with us. A framer friend and his two sons did most of it, and you can tell the difference walking from one side of the house to the other. Man, are they good, even the inspector complimented us on it several times.

They have been 'out of work' since 2007, but working pretty steadily because of referrals. All three were foremen on large housing tracts until 2006.

Rick Potter

[Tom M King]

I did my 30 years in construction, longer I was in it the sicker I got of subcontractors, got so I just built my own from start to finish. Got really sick of plumbers, seems like as
they are licensed, so I can't run them off the job and do it myself, they think they can get by with any kind of carp work. Last house I did, they spilled their purple primer in my whirlpool tub, then when I was finishing up found a big stain of purple in the bottom of the tub, under the cardboard protector, and the plumber lied and said he didn't use anything that would stain that tub. I had to have the whole bottom ground down and refinished. Would have to say that most of the guys in construction are losers, and many are dopers that have been fired from any good job available, and all that is left to them is construction.

I started building houses in 1973. By 1975, I was doing everything, for reasons you state, except installing HVAC equipment (because I knew there would eventually be call backs for repairs), with only two helpers. I still am.

Every week, I spend more time than I want to turning down work. No, I don't have time to come look at it. No, I don't know who else I can recommend, because I don't really keep up with what others are doing. I don't use subs, so I don't know any I can recommend.

Since I built houses, and then sold them, I don't know what it costs to build anything before hand. I always found out what it costs to build something by building it, so I can't give you an estimate.

My phone is ringing right now. Probably someone wanting to know who they can get to fix their roof. I have never advertised, and only in the past six months have I started a website.

[Lee Schierer]

The houses were all made very well. The walls were made of red oak. I can still remember trying to patch a piece of drywall in my moms house and after bending 4 drywall nails and breaking 2 screws, figured out I had to predrill and use machine screws.

The studs in our family room and entry hallway are hard maple. You can't drive a nail into them. Even drywall screws tend to drive hard and break unless you lube them with beeswax.

[Phil Thien]

The studs in our family room and entry hallway are hard maple. You can't drive a nail into them. Even drywall screws tend to drive hard and break unless you lube them with beeswax.

Well, that may be a PITA normally (I actually wouldn't mind it much unless I was doing the drywalling and if I was I'd use shorter screws and lube them).

BUT, I've helped people with entry doors where the top hinge screws have stripped out of the balsa wood framing. So IMHO the framing around the entry door should be white oak. Holds a screw, resistant to rot, kind of the ideal wood for that application.

[Matt Krusen]

My fiancé and I just purchased our first home. 2600' sq., built in 1952. The house is extremely well built and we have had no problems (knock on wood). I have been doing updates and renovations since we moved in. The latest project was to gut and rebuild the master bathroom. I'm a grad student so after I did the demo I hired out the sheetrocking and tiling. I figured they would get it done much faster than I would given my business in my lab. Its a fairly small bathroom and it took them 5 weeks. A lot of their work was shotty at best and I've had to make numerous little fixes and finishes. Sorry for the sob story but I guess the thing that I've found most difficult when working with contractors is how to weed through the bad ones to find those gems that do true quality work? I know they exist as I've had the pleasure of working with them before!

[Jim German]

Sadly, build quality was near the top of my list when I was looking for a house. First was location, then was floorplan, then was the yard, then the quality. If a developer buys prime real estate and puts crap houses on it, people will buy them.

[Rich Engelhardt]

When did they ever build decent houses?During the 1930's.
Top shelf materials and top shelf labor were both plentiful and cheap.

Not a lot of people had the money - but - for the small percentage that did, they really made out well.

You can drive down a street in an older neighborhood and pick out a house made during the depression.
They really stand out.

[Greg Hines, MD]

My house was built in 1989, and still has a lot of problems. I would truly love to know why it is wired as it is. For some reason, the master bathroom is on the same circuit as the garage, where I have my tools. So, I am running the tablesaw, and the wife turns on the hair dryer, and poof, we are both sitting there wondering why there is no electricity.

Doc

[Mike Henderson]

My house was built in 1989, and still has a lot of problems. I would truly love to know why it is wired as it is. For some reason, the master bathroom is on the same circuit as the garage, where I have my tools. So, I am running the tablesaw, and the wife turns on the hair dryer, and poof, we are both sitting there wondering why there is no electricity.

Doc
A house I was in was wired that way. The reason was that the garage has to be on a GFCI and they cheaped out by putting the garage on the bath GFCI. For most people, that's not a problem because garage outlets rarely get used in most houses.

Mike

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Unfortunately the good contractors ARE expensive. But many of the worst are just as expensive. Cost is just no guarantee of quality.

I've always said that a good painter is very expensive. A crappy painter is even more expensive.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

The house I grew up in was built in the mid 1880s, just after the Gulf, Colorado and Santa Fe railroad arrived and the town was platted. The sheathing was some type of 1" oak sawn with a big circular saw. You could see the saw marks on the wood and couldn't drive a box nail into it as they would just bend. I remember my dad predrilling nail holes anytime he had to drive a nail into it. I don't know if the wood was always that hard or if it got harder as it aged. The house has since been torn down and I wonder if it was just bulldozed or dismantled. That wood would have made a lot of nice furniture.

[John Piwaron]

The studs in our family room and entry hallway are hard maple.

Holy cow! (sounds like something I'd do :))

[John Piwaron]

garage outlets rarely get used in most houses.

Mike

And then there's mine. And probably the garages of any visitor to this forum.

[John Piwaron]

I can't say the house I live in is one of those poorly built places. It was built in 1941. The 2x4s really are 2x4. The drywall has an equally thick layer of plaster over it. My guess is that the drywaller was a plaster guy making the change from plaster/lathe to drywall.

About the only things I've had to deal with were reversing or removing the changes previous owners made. By and large the place is solid and well built. I've noticed that the sizes of the materials used are no longer available. Like 1 1/16 thick casing around the windows. I make my own. That's a benefit of having a lot of woodworking tools. Buy rough lumber and mill it to what I need.

No, I'm not a tradesman. When I want to do something I'll research it first, then buy the good stuff. Seldom will I hire a contractor. Except a big plumbing job or the roof.

[johnny means]

Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. Do you really expect a house to be built with the same precision as a dinky little jewelry box or a blanket chest? We're talking about thousands of parts and dozens of different materials all screwed, glued, and nailed together into one massive box. My house is ten years old, I'm already seeing cracks and sticky doors because of settling. Is this because the builders didnt do things right? No, it's because it's a house. I find it hard to believe that a house that has been home to three or more generations of families is "a waste of otherwise decent materials". This statement sounds ill informed. Excactly what is the standard here anyway? Versailles? Monticello? Buckingham Palace?

[Mike Henderson]

And then there's mine. And probably the garages of any visitor to this forum.
Yep, I agree. But we're a minority.

Mike

[I'll add a couple of comments about the house I live in now. It was built in about 1968 and was very well constructed. In 2004, a contractor bought it from the original owners and did an extensive renovation. We bought the house in 2010. The house is well done, both the original construction and the renovation. There were a few things that the contractor did that we changed, but a good 95% of his work was very good. He really put a good effort into the renovation.

One thing I did was replace all the outlets because the old outlets were 50+ years old and tired. I put in the tamper resistant outlets. I also changed all the switches from the old toggle switches to the Decor rocker type switches just to update the look. We also did a partial renovation of the master bath to get more closet space for my wife. But overall the house was well built and well renovated.]

[Andrew Joiner]

During the 1930's.
Top shelf materials and top shelf labor were both plentiful and cheap.

Not a lot of people had the money - but - for the small percentage that did, they really made out well.

You can drive down a street in an older neighborhood and pick out a house made during the depression.
They really stand out.
That makes sense to me too, Rich. If a house was built in during a housing boom there would more pressure to work fast.

There's a house near me that suffered the worst timing in it's construction history. It was framed and sheathed with OSB in 2006. Then house prices plunged. The builder/speculator walked away and left the OSB totally exposed for 3 years of rain. The soggy OSB was eventually roofed, sided and carpeted when the housing market go brighter. Someone bought the house,but I doubt they got a discount for the dark, damp history.

[John Piwaron]

Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. Do you really expect a house to be built with the same precision as a dinky little jewelry box or a blanket chest? We're talking about thousands of parts and dozens of different materials all screwed, glued, and nailed together into one massive box. My house is ten years old, I'm already seeing cracks and sticky doors because of settling. Is this because the builders didnt do things right? No, it's because it's a house. I find it hard to believe that a house that has been home to three or more generations of families is "a waste of otherwise decent materials". This statement sounds ill informed. Excactly what is the standard here anyway? Versailles? Monticello? Buckingham Palace?

I'd say "Versailles" but my house has a bathroom.

[Pat Barry]

I believe the peak for fine quality and craftsmanship was in the early to mid '70s. That is mis-stated - should have said the biggest dip in the valley. Sorry - I can't figure out how to edit that.

[Steve Gojevic]

Our house was built in the late 50s. Its a brick ranch with a walk-out basement. The basement is built with 12" wide cement blocks which are filled with rocks and cement around the doorways. The floor joists are 2x12 Douglas Fir. Overall, the house is well built. There area a few things I had to fix, mostly some later mods by the homeowner.


For the last 8 years I have been driving by an area that used to be farmland then a developer started building homes there. The entrance to the development has fake stone columns that have white vinyl fence panels between them. The columns keep rising and sinking (frost heave?), causing the fence sections to tilt far off horizontal. A few times the fence sections have actually fallen off and were laying on the ground for a week before they were put back up (still crooked). This is at the entrance to the development, directly next to the road! I wonder how much care was taken on hidden items that you can't see, when they don't even care about the stuff highly visible. Unfortunately nobody seems to care as the developer is having no problem building and selling the homes.

I talked to a general contractor a few days ago. He has been building homes for 50 years. He says the older guys that did good work are retiring and very few young people are choosing trades. The few young guys also seem to lack the work ethic and pride in their work that was more common before. His last comment was that he was glad he's also retiring as things are getting worse.

Steve

[Mel Fulks]

The worst built houses IMO were the post modern " mc mansions".One national company that builds that stuff would not allow a plumber to put but one water shut off for the whole house! Any one who watches HGTV has seen some homes "built in the 80s for 25 million and recently renovated at a cost of 12 million" ???. Or same story with figures as high as
80 million. Few years back a couple in this state had a home built for 110 million . Sold it for about 15 million. Looked looked like several "colonial " motels stacked up.

[Rick Potter]

Kinda like what Andrew said.

There was a housing tract being built locally about 20 years ago. Maybe 50 houses. The builder must have gone broke, as the houses were framed, then work stopped for maybe two years. No sheathing or wrap. Studs were out in the open the whole time. Then they finished the houses and sold them.

I have always felt sorry for the new owners.

Rick Potter

[Stew Hagerty]

Before I got sick, I was a contractor (residential and light commercial) for over 25 years. I believe that the homes I built were as well constructed as possible. I prided myself on custom made built-ins, trim-out, & cabinetry.

That said... Construction is not woodworking. The structure of the house is built with imperfect wood (ie. 2X4's, 2X6's, etc.). Sure you throw out the worst of it, but relatively few are dead straight. Homes would be priced out of reach of all but a few if you took the time to joint & plane each and every hunk of wood used (and even if you did, how long would the pine stay that way?). Home Builders do the best they can (some more so than others), but as everyone knows, how often are walls perfectly straight and corners 90 degrees? That is the nature of construction.

[Kevin Bourque]

There are 8 houses on this farm. They range in age from 40-270 years old. The oldest houses have been redone several times and they still leak, are drafty, smell funny, have insufficient electrical service, etc. etc. etc...

The newer houses are so badly constructed that its debatable whether or not it would be cheaper to knock down and rebuild vs. remodel.

Finding a well made home is a hit-or-miss proposition.

[Phil Thien]

Before I got sick, I was a contractor (residential and light commercial) for over 25 years. I believe that the homes I built were as well constructed as possible. I prided myself on custom made built-ins, trim-out, & cabinetry.

That said... Construction is not woodworking. The structure of the house is built with imperfect wood (ie. 2X4's, 2X6's, etc.). Sure you throw out the worst of it, but relatively few are dead straight. Homes would be priced out of reach of all but a few if you took the time to joint & plane each and every hunk of wood used (and even if you did, how long would the pine stay that way?). Home Builders do the best they can (some more so than others), but as everyone knows, how often are walls perfectly straight and corners 90 degrees? That is the nature of construction.

Give me any graded lumber and I'll make 90-degree corners and straight walls all day long.

Almost none of the types of problems I see are because of materials.

[Peter Quinn]

Wood moves. Houses are built out of green #2 common doug fir. I don't care how well you build it, its not going to stay that way. I build cabinets for a living, we include scribes on stuff for even the highest level of construction. Nothing is perfect. There are still and probably always have been great contractors in this country, I've worked with a few, my uncle is one. That said some framers are better than others, some carpenters are better than others, some contractors have higher standards and better education than others. And some are just bad, unscrupulous, or both. Price is a potential indicator, but certainly not always. Sheet rock cracks, nails and screws pop, houses settle, concrete cracks. A house requires maintenance, even in this age of vinyl sided triple insulated joist hanger construction entropy is always at work and the only defense is constant diligence. My home is over 100 years old and is very well built. I laughed at the guy with the snow rake this winter offering to rake the 3' +snow load off to protect my home! Going door to door, I appreciated his entrepreneurial spirit, but I reminded him this house was built to last, had survived much greater snow loads without collapse or ice damns, hip roofs are much stronger and more durable than gable ranches and capes, maybe he should try the 1980's development around the corner!

Fact is everything is more expensive than ever, but wages for working types are stagnant. So what can we afford? You want a quality custom built home? They are still available. But much like the rest of our economy, people often go for the cheap stuff so they can have more of it. Why buy a north field jointer when you can have a whole shop full of green stuff with bears on it. Why buy a $375K custom 1850SF home with basic trim, a nice little porch, 1/2 acre, and small deck when you can have a 3500SF cobbled plastic junk box with $5 masonite doors, colonial finger joint clam shell casing, forced hot air and 2 acres for the same price? Who needs a legacy home when they aren't planning on being there in 12 years? Ive done work in a few doozys, walls wacked out of square and plumb, no insulation around window jambs (new construction, over $600K), floors not flat/level over short distances, gaps around $5 hollow doors not even close to even. That giant sucking sound you hear is the sound of the wake of the GC's boat (paid for with the corners he cut) skimming over the water as your McMansion falls apart.

[Larry Edgerton]

I tried to type a response but kept getting angry and deleting it. Peter pretty much stated what I had to say for me as usual.

I hand most customers a copy of Sarah Susanka's "The No So Big House." before they start looking at plans. It never takes, they always want the biggest box with the most features. It reminds me of Mister Potatohead. Big boxes with tasteless features stuck on just for the sake of having the feature.

I know who I am an I have a 1200 square foot house, its what I need and what I can afford. Not the max I can afford, what I can afford using sound economic principals. I am out to impress myself and my wife, and that is it.

People need to ask, and be honest with themselves, "What do we NEED?" But instead they look at stupid magazines and want to live the life of those imaginary people, in imaginary houses with imaginary lifestyles. Quantity VS quality, quantity always wins.

For me contracting is a frustrating profession, especially as I give a damn. I often wish I could be different in the way I feel about my work because it often seems that I am the only one that cares, and that includes potential customers. I can not build a house properly with the same amount of money as a hack, I use better materials and I take more time in the framing stage, but that does not matter when the main criteria is the low bid. It wasn't always this way here, but as I have seen costs quadruple and labor rates stay the same in the last twenty five years, There is just no room to move any more.

I could go on, by why bother really.......

Larry

[Phil Thien]

Wood moves. Houses are built out of green #2 common doug fir. I don't care how well you build it, its not going to stay that way. I build cabinets for a living, we include scribes on stuff for even the highest level of construction. Nothing is perfect.

I've seen a ton of corners that are way-off and it has nothing to do with wood movement and everything to do with guys eye-balling the sole plates or using a framing square or piece of plywood (instead of a tape) to do their squaring.

I'm not saying I expect walls to be perfect, and I do find terrific framing from time to time. But I've also seen stuff that has defied explanation.

[Alan Lightstone]

The worst built houses IMO were the post modern " mc mansions".One national company that builds that stuff would not allow a plumber to put but one water shut off for the whole house! Any one who watches HGTV has seen some homes "built in the 80s for 25 million and recently renovated at a cost of 12 million" ???. Or same story with figures as high as
80 million. Few years back a couple in this state had a home built for 110 million . Sold it for about 15 million. Looked looked like several "colonial " motels stacked up.

You can't just let that one sit there. A Zillow reference???? Gotta look hideous.

[Mel Fulks]

Google Pat Kluge's home sale to Donald Trump. No doubt most of us could stand to live there, but it shows a great misunderstanding of Georgian design . The vertical lines are the IMPORTANT lines.

[Garth Almgren]

I talked to a general contractor a few days ago. He has been building homes for 50 years. He says the older guys that did good work are retiring and very few young people are choosing trades. The few young guys also seem to lack the work ethic and pride in their work that was more common before. His last comment was that he was glad he's also retiring as things are getting worse.
I'd lay good odds that if you had talked to a general contractor 50 or 60 years ago, he would have said exactly the same thing. :)

[Rick Potter]

Here in SoCal, my wife and I have always been Old Spanish, hacienda style, fans. Many were built in the 20's and 30's, and we never miss a chance to look at one when there is an open house. We have come to the conclusion that we really love the architecture and style, but we really wouldn't like to live in one.

The genuine old ones (not to be confused with newer homes mimicking that style) have tiny bedrooms, crazy layouts, missing closets, small windows, and narrow stairways. Many have been 'modernized' poorly, creating problems of their own. Little things like AC ducting, and butchered plumbing.

It's like looking at a beautiful classic car, like an Auburn Speedster, or Coffin nose Cord. Really beautiful, I want one, but for everyday use.........forget it. For everyday use I want my power steering, and brakes that work.

I admire those who live in classic style old homes. They are beautiful. I am jealous of you, but I just want to visit, not live there.

Rick Potter

[Mel Fulks]

Rick, you might enjoy the film " The Day of the Locusts" , has some good shots of old California bungalows.

[Jason Roehl]

Amen, Rick. I lived in a house that was 100 years old. I'll take modern homes any day, even with their issues (excluding the slapped-together tract homes where the builder will go with the next sub if he's $0.05/s.f. cheaper). My current house is 40 years old, and that's much preferable in this area--seemed to be a time of a higher quality build than the last 20 years or so. Most of what it needs now is cosmetic, but I do need to keep an eye on the ABS drain pipes--those crack if you look at them cross-eyed.

[Ronald Blue]

I have said for a long time that they don't build them like they used to and then I add "Thank God"! I have redone enough old houses out of necessity in my earlier years and the inconsistent stud sizes and out of square walls and corners to never want to deal with another one. The construction materials and techniques have changed over the years. Most for the better but not all. As has been previously stated shifting foundations can cause lot's of problems. Poured basement walls with proper drainage are so much better then brick or block in my humble opinion. I like my home I have been in for the last 10 years and could well be my last. It has a few minor annoyances but it is tight and energy efficient. Every old house had issues that were difficult to fix or expensive or both. Done right the new construction can be better than most of the old homes. There are some solid old homes out there but I am willing to bet that few are square or plumb. To each there own though.

[Peter Quinn]

I've seen a ton of corners that are way-off and it has nothing to do with wood movement and everything to do with guys eye-balling the sole plates or using a framing square or piece of plywood (instead of a tape) to do their squaring.

I'm not saying I expect walls to be perfect, and I do find terrific framing from time to time. But I've also seen stuff that has defied explanation.

Agreed, there is some real garbage out there. Giving a crack head a hammer doesn't make him a carpenter. And I've seen enough wearing tool belts to know. I'm just saying there are lots of good and great american tradesman and women left out there, along with a steady stream of addicts, drifters, marginalized miscreants and other salty types that round out our building trades. Most of the licensed trades, electrical, plumbing, gas, hvac, etc. seem to attract a pretty steady sort of person given the dedication required to get the license. In my state a remodelers license requires around $400, a very basic testing procedure, and a registration fee. Major structural and site work requires a lot more rigorous license, but only the GC has to have a license. The guy with the license can hire just about anybody to work for him as long it it gets past a building inspector and home owner. So who's to blame? I feel like if our society sought out quality over quantity on more levels things would improve.....unless you own a fast food franchise.

[Jim Andrew]

Most customers don't know the difference between quality and quantity. They just follow a realtor around and talk about cost per square foot, and buy the one that has a big enough garage and the cheapest price per square foot. They start noticing the quality or lack of after they move in. When you do meet a customer who knows quality, he does his best to use you up. I built a house with a curved stair once, and when I got finished, he bugged me about the base at the top of the stair. I had made the base on one side of the stair about 1/4" longer than the other side. Drove the guy crazy.

[Stephen Musial]

During the 1930's.
Top shelf materials and top shelf labor were both plentiful and cheap.

Not a lot of people had the money - but - for the small percentage that did, they really made out well.

You can drive down a street in an older neighborhood and pick out a house made during the depression.
They really stand out.

And most likely have asbestos in the plaster and galvanized water pipes...

[Brian W Smith]

Google Pat Kluge's home sale to Donald Trump. No doubt most of us could stand to live there, but it shows a great misunderstanding of Georgian design . The vertical lines are the IMPORTANT lines.

......there goes the neighborhood,sheeesh

[Rich Engelhardt]

And most likely have asbestos in the plaster and galvanized water pipes...You'll find both in houses built any time from 1900 through the 1960's.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Well, here in Texas, most construction is done by people who don't speak English as their first language. They work from sunup to sundown, sometimes 7 days a week and they seem to work in the wind, rain, cold, heat, fog and anything else mother nature throws at them. From what I can tell, they do good work, but it really comes down to the construction manager, building superintendent, foreman--whatever you want to call him. He's the guy wearing the starched shirt, driving the new pickup, who shows up every couple of days to see what's going on.

I think our new house was well built, but I was on site every day and brought everything I didn't like to the attention of the construction manager. There were very few structural issues to deal with and overall we are very satisfied with the quality of the house.

I think most modern building materials are superior to what was available in the past. Oh, there have been some missteps along the way. Fake stucco and Masonite exterior siding come to mind. I remember having to repaint our house as a kid and the paint would flake off because of moisture on the backside affecting adhesion on the front side. I haven't had that problem with any house I've owned recently because all the "Wood" is really concrete.

[Kevin Jenness]

Good and bad houses have been built as long as houses have been built. I built my house 27 years ago with most of the wood coming from my woodlot, built and hung the doors and cabinets myself, heat it in Northern VT with 2 cords a year. My son is starting to saw up a pile of logs now to do the same thing. It's all about attitude and budget. The company I work for builds good houses, but generally only wealthy people can afford them, and even they can plump for size over quality. It's a rare client that appreciates all that goes into the building process, but they wouldn't come to us unless we had certain minimum standards. As an old boatbuilder once said,"About the only thing you can say about an oldtimer who has survived a miserable occupation like this is that you have finally learned the balance between how good it should be and what they'll pay for, and how good it has to be before you'll lose your reputation." http://birdseyebuilding.com (http://www.birdseyebuilding.com/)

[Jak Kelly]

I have yet to understand this trend in new home construction that involves all of these different angles, pitches, valleys and heights in the roof construction. All of that just adds to more potential leaks. Not to mention the added extra cost to get a roof like this re-sealed in 10 to 15 years. All that crap is for is appearance! All of these weird angles and cut out dimensions are purely for aesthetic design purposes. Then these houses won't even have an eave on them; roof stops, then straight down the wall. I don't understand a lot of it, that is for sure!!!!

[Jak Kelly]

Whats even funnier is how many people actually think that the bricks on a brick house are structural!!!! Brick offers one benefit "no to low maintenance". That is until something goes really wrong, like the footing collapses and you have to pier it. When these problems start showing up the cash starts flying out, followed with a loan. If I were to build a new home today I would heavily consider that concrete lap-siding.

[Jason Roehl]

I have yet to understand this trend in new home construction that involves all of these different angles, pitches, valleys and heights in the roof construction. All of that just adds to more potential leaks. Not to mention the added extra cost to get a roof like this re-sealed in 10 to 15 years. All that crap is for is appearance! All of these weird angles and cut out dimensions are purely for aesthetic design purposes. Then these houses won't even have an eave on them; roof stops, then straight down the wall. I don't understand a lot of it, that is for sure!!!!

It stinks to paint those little sections of rake boards, soffit and siding above the chopped-up roof lines, too. (I'm a painting contractor by day...)


Whats even funnier is how many people actually think that the bricks on a brick house are structural!!!! Brick offers one benefit "no to low maintenance". That is until something goes really wrong, like the footing collapses and you have to pier it. When these problems start showing up the cash starts flying out, followed with a loan. If I were to build a new home today I would heavily consider that concrete lap-siding.

A former roommate of mine, now a cardiologist, bought and moved into a somewhat spendy spec house several years ago. The first problem they noticed was a window leak, which then led to a discovery that none of the brick veneer on the house was tied to the house (and I think it's mostly, if not all brick). The builder was out of business by the time of the discovery, so there was no financial recourse, until my friend's wife found a forgotten bond of some sort, which paid for a good portion of the repairs.

[Jak Kelly]

It stinks to paint those little sections of rake boards, soffit and siding above the chopped-up roof lines, too. (I'm a painting contractor by day...)



A former roommate of mine, now a cardiologist, bought and moved into a somewhat spendy spec house several years ago. The first problem they noticed was a window leak, which then led to a discovery that none of the brick veneer on the house was tied to the house (and I think it's mostly, if not all brick). The builder was out of business by the time of the discovery, so there was no financial recourse, until my friend's wife found a forgotten bond of some sort, which paid for a good portion of the repairs.


Ya, well that's one I wasn't necessarily thinking of. I was looking at it from an umbrella type of a perspective, taking that into consideration how many people you know buy and umbrella the exact same size as their head?
Our current home has had issues with the footing that supports the brick. We had to have piers installed, not cheap either $500 a hole, 3 hole minimum. Luckily the only piers we have had to have installed deal with the footing and the brick only, if that is luck! The crew installing the piers commented that if the footing had been 14" to 18" deep then there wouldn't have been a problem. Not saying they know for sure.
My dad built his own house, we did a lot of the work, almost all of it, except for the concrete. His walls are 10" thick concrete walls, formed, vibrated and poured in place. The footing for the house was 24" wide by 48" deep, peered, and had tons of re-bar.

[Stephen Musial]

Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. Do you really expect a house to be built with the same precision as a dinky little jewelry box or a blanket chest? We're talking about thousands of parts and dozens of different materials all screwed, glued, and nailed together into one massive box. My house is ten years old, I'm already seeing cracks and sticky doors because of settling. Is this because the builders didnt do things right? No, it's because it's a house. I find it hard to believe that a house that has been home to three or more generations of families is "a waste of otherwise decent materials". This statement sounds ill informed. Excactly what is the standard here anyway? Versailles? Monticello? Buckingham Palace?

The standard is "well built". If your house is cracking and settling after 10 years, it was not well built. If your doors are sticking after 10 years, it was not well built. However, if you are happy, nothing else really matters.

[Jak Kelly]

The standard is "well built". If your house is cracking and settling after 10 years, it was not well built. If your doors are sticking after 10 years, it was not well built. However, if you are happy, nothing else really matters.

Personally it wouldn't matter to me if; the walls were not perfectly square (especially the interior walls), if the grout lines were off a little, or even if the Sheetrock left something to be desired. I would be more concerned with or about the foundation, quality of lumber used for the framing, load bearing walls overbuilt (especially the header on a 15' garage door), I would also want the roof to be over built and nothing less than a 6/12 pitch (which is plenty for my neck of the woods, I'm more concerned about ventilation and heat build-up, maybe standing room to, and heavily vented!) add a 3' eave all the way around.
Then start looking at things like plumbing, making sure all the water locations are in a straight shot (if possible). Plenty of electrical service, with an exterior box on every corner of the house (maybe one under each eave in the front and back). At least 2 - 220v outlets in the garage.

[Shawn Pixley]

There are well built and poorly built houses built during all eras. My current house was built in 1989 and is very well built. Yes there are some elements where they might have done better. The walls are straight, plumb and square. The drywall work is a smooth finish and ends square at the floor without baseboards. It is an architect designed house (not me) in a non tract house community. Tract houses of the same era can be hit and miss. My house will stand after some around me have fallen.

My first house was a 1923 craftsman house in Seattle. This was at the era of transition from balloon framing to platform framing. Every stud was directly below every joist. Lath and plaster and coved ceilings throughout. The electrical circuitry was knob and tube - state of the art for the era. There was a sawdust bin in the basement. Furnaces were often powered by sawdust from local mills rather than coal.

The first house I restored was an 1867 Italianate Revival house. The bearing walls were all structural brick. Repairing the pasterwork (horse hair in the plaster) and stripping bad paint from a 100 years was not fun.

I have also walked through or inspected hundreds of other houses from a large variety of eras. Some were built well for the time, some less so. There is no one standard of quality that stands out. What does stand out however is the quality of the builder. Many tract homes are poorly built but I have seen very well built tract homes. My parents house was the model house for the development. It was built far better than the subsequent houses.

The last time we looked for a house we probably walked through about 100. I inspected probably 15 of them before we finally offered on the one we purchased. We knew our criteria for the house and LOML agreed with the need to have a well built house. We can easily fix the "finish" elements but the house and core systems needed to be of quality construction. The bones and systems behind the walls are the more important than interior tile or wall color. I can't emphasize enough the imporatnce of a good foundation, superstructure, and roof to the quality of the house.

The other criteria I use is to examine the house for previous renovations. Even if the initial quality is good, the house can be mucked up by some homeowner mangeling a kitchen or bath renovation. Cut joists, bad wiring, no venting, etc. these rae very frustrating as you have to fix them before you can plan any changes you want to make.

Instead of looking of the eras of houses, my recomendation is to look for the qualities in a house. Open houses allow for a cursory inspection. Open doors, inspect cabintetry, count outlets, find the panel, look for waterstains, look down walls, bring a level, etc... If it looks promising, ask your broker to arrange a time for you to go and do a better inspection. Take tools to look at the elements to determine for yourself the build quality. If you offer on a place and make the house subject to inspection, go with the inspector to do the deep investigation. This ensures you know what is going on and keeps them honest.

[Rick Potter]

One thing I find of interest is the differences in home building from place to place. Here in SoCal, from the 50's to the recent ongoing recession, there were great tracts of homes built, hundreds, or even thousands at a time. Honest. Near me is a tract of 18,000 homes, in a city with over 150,000 people that didn't exist until the 1970's.

People, including my parents, were moving in droves to this area, and the housing market was booming. It is interesting to drive on surface streets, rather than the freeway, from downtown Los Angeles, to the farthest suburbs. You may never find the farthest one, since you start running into suburbs of other cities.

In my case, let's go East. We start out going through Cities like San Gabriel and Alhambra, which were filled with tracts in the 50's. 1000-1200' homes dominate the market there. Driving on we get to places like West Covina, and Covina, which built out in the late 50's, early 60's, and housing was a bit larger, maybe 1500'. Further on, we find 1800-2000' average housing size in Claremont and LaVerne built in the 70's. By the time we get to Rancho Cucamonga we have 2000-2500' and larger being pretty standard.

This area is so large that it takes 20 years to fill, with Fontana, Ontario, Eastvale, Chino Hills etc building huge groups of homes. Unbelievably to people who live elsewhere, this entire scenario is one contiguous suburb. City names change, buy you can stand on a street corner in lots of places and each side of the corner is a different city.

Most interesting is that the farther you get from LA, the cheaper the houses, so we have lots of people driving over 50 miles to work daily.

Now, many of these cities have been around a while, the housing tracts just filled in the land between them. Most of the cities mentioned and many more may have a little vacant land, enough for half a dozen homes or so, and that is being filled in with small tracts, or the occasional individual home. You have to go a ways from downtown LA before you find very many individual homes being built.

There are some smaller places built, but in the last 20 years or so, they are almost all condos. As an example, my previous home, in Claremont (a tiny city of 30,000), was built in 1973. Well over 100 homes in the tract, with three price leaders available with 1900', all the rest were 2250 to 2700.

In my area, finding a home in the 1200' range, necessitates going to the downtown of one of the older cities in the area, with houses built in the 40's or 50's. This is usually an area where you do not want to live.

By the way, we have travelled about 30 miles from downtown LA to Rancho Cucamonga, and we have another 15 or so to go before it stops being one contiguous city.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I have yet to understand this trend in new home construction that involves all of these different angles, pitches, valleys and heights in the roof construction.That my friend is called "opulence". Or - @ least trying to show it whether it comes across or not :D.

100 years ago, there was a very popular move that started to counter the same trend that had started at - - roughly the same time frame!
Funny how history repeats isn't it?

The Victorian style houses of the late 1800's have exactly the same layouts as the McMansions of the late 1900's.

I actually put a lot of study into this sort of trend before I retired so I could outfit my shop with the right tools for the style of house I feel will be in demand in the coming years.
IMHO - rising energy costs and people living a "more responsible" lifestyle ( no more "entertaining") are going to push the demand back into smaller more efficient to heat/cool houses.
Very much like the Mission/Craftsman houses took over from the Victorians.



It stinks to paint those little sections of rake boards, soffit and siding above the chopped-up roof lines, too. (I'm a painting contractor by day...)LOL!
I know exactly what you mean.
My ex partner - back when I had my painting company - wanted to specialize in 5 color work on Victorians.
Those turrets are real killers.
We were lucky and managed to avoid having to deal with one of the real "high boys". A number of them in Lakewood Ohio - where we did most of our work, are 50/60 feet high at the tip.

I'm really glad I got out of that business!

[Al Weber]

We sold our NH cape built in 1810 a few years ago. It wasn't exactly level after 200 years and some corners weren't quite square but it survived the Hurricane of 1938, 2 centuries of New England storms, and a lot of summer rain and wind storms. You didn't want to open an exterior wall because there was no dimensional lumber and the rough framing might be on 6 inch centers or on 24 inch centers (or some fraction thereof). In a major ice storm in 2008 that left us without power for 14 days in December, a 8" diameter x 8 foot ash branch struck the roof squarely and didn't even break a shingle because the 8" diameter roofing timbers that were flattened logs held up. Why did that house have better quality than today's. Because the owner and his neighbors built it and not a construction company building 4000 sq. ft. homes with luxury features that few can really afford. My stepson is having a home built now and his major concern is how fast can it be done? Some the construction company is glad to oblige and built it in a few months without regard to quality. In 10 years the house will settle and crack, the doors won't open properly and they will sell it and move to another quick build. It is a disposable house and never a home.

[Chris Fournier]

Ha, I think the question should be "when was the last time I bought a decent house"? If enough money is spent and the right person is building a decent house is the result! Most times...

I worked for a custom builder in the 80's and the houses we built were stunning. No detail was ignored and we worked to the 1/16" using the best materials we could get - the suppliers hated us. The price tags were commensurate with the attention to detail and materials.

I live in a 112 year old home, it stood that long and it was crappy. I gutted it to the double brick load bearing walls, reset floors, built new staircases bottom to top etc. Now my house is decent and I still wake up in nightmares about being in the middle of my reno!

[Jim German]

Houses are like anything else, some people build high quality ones, and many more make cheap ones. Just look at the number of cheap tools being sold to the number of quality tools, its no different, and its something that has little to do with when things were done.

[Mel Fulks]

I guess there are some similarities in the whimsical nature of Victorian and post modern houses . But I haven't seen any
Victorians with bay windows in a corner or large sections of roof dumping water on to smaller sections.

[Jak Kelly]

I grew up in an old 2-story house, probably built close to 1900, we never could get an actual date, maybe 1907. That house lacked a lot of modern conveniences, was not very well insulated, drafty, had the old asbestos shingles for siding, very contrary double hung wood windows. My dad never attempted to cool it during the summer, we had one window unit in the living room, also had bi-folds to close the room off. That's where you had to go if you wanted to be in the air-conditioning during the summer, otherwise it was going to cost too darn (not the word he used) much money to cool the whole house, and if dad came home and found the A/C on and no body home............oh man, that's another story!!!

I also remember the big base boards, I think they were 6" wide and a full 1" thick, so was the casing around all of the doors, with a decorative header on top (I think that is what you call it?) For all that house lacked in modern conveniences it made up for in structural integrity, standing after 100 years says something in itself! The cabinets were very plain, ordinary looking, built on site, but even after 70 years they were still in place, all the doors opened and closed fine.

We built a garage next to that house, dad wanted to make sure they matched, so he had a lead on a similar house being demolished nearby, which he went and bought the asbestos shingles off of the owner. Both the garage and house had a 8/12 pitch roofs. I only remember the house being roofed once when i was about 5 years old, the house still has the same roof/shingles on it today, that is close to 40 years ago!

[Charles Coolidge]

I had a new house built a year ago, I spent 3 months studying new homes in the area then told the builder how it was going to be. He seemed offended at times when I mocked him for suggesting some cheap out approach when only a marginal amount of additional money would buy much better quality. I still remember him trying to convince me doweled particle board drawers was all I really needed when upgrading the entire house to dovetail maple drawers was less than $500. Told him his snap together plastic floor wasn't going to fly either, or the $49 CHINA toilets, or tile counter tops, or his 99 cents a foot builder grade carpet, or his budget CHINA light fixtures, or his particle board cabinet bases, etc. Instead Hickory plywood cabinet bases with solid Hickory fronts and raised panel Hickory doors, slab granite counter tops throughout, nailed, sanded, finished in place 3" knotty oak floor, tile floors in the baths, $289 American Standard toilets, more than doubled his light fixture budget, ditto on his plumbing fixture budget. He got the rest right, he builds a solid house he was just going cheap where there was no reason to go cheap. I only spent about $30k on upgrades but it made a big difference. Then he copied me on the next house he built up the street lol! And it sold for $75k more than mine and mine is bigger :eek:

[johnny means]

"Only" 30k in upgrades? The problem is that buyers don't see that value when they look at a house. Charles, I wonder if you would have paid an extra 50k if you had not have personally seen where the extra was going. It's a strange phenomena, sell them the base model first and then between sale and delivery they'll upgrade, one upgrade at a time, to the top of the line model.

[Jak Kelly]

Another sad realization is that I have known of a few friends and my brother who have purchased new homes that have had to replace; switches, receptacles, faucets, light fixtures............ along with other problems, within 5 years of living in their new home. I would want to kick the crap out of someone if that were me and I had paid that much for a house full of "builder grade materials"!!!!

[Charles Coolidge]

Johnny I would have paid more for a house that was upgraded similar to mine. In fact I declined to make an offer on a number of spec houses I liked precisely because they were appointed with the cheaper builder grade materials and fixtures. I still can't believe you can buy a CHINA toilet for $49 and a builder grade bathroom faucet for $9 wow.

To be fair our market was dead when I purchased and builders were all cutting their prices trying to compete. My builder is a smaller custom home builder and my house was a spec house he was building to help keep his guys busy. He came highly recommended, turned out he even built a house for my loan officer at the credit union. The prices on houses similar to mine on acreage were selling in the $500k range before the market took a dive. Prices had dropped to around $400k maybe that's why builders were going with the cheaper finish materials.

I got lucky. My builder purchased an older ranch home that had 3 buildable acreage lots grandfathered in. He split them off and resold the ranch so the lots only cost him about $25k. A 1 acre lot in my area will cost a minimum of $100k for a bad location, $150k for a good location so he got quite the deal and passed some of that on to the buyers to get the houses sold.

My builder priced the spec home I purchased and the other two at $280k and all three sold BAM. I found there wasn't a single new home on acreage priced anywhere near that price. I initially passed on his house because it was so far below the price range I was looking in but after two months of looking at houses that cost $100k to $150k more that really didn't offer more, maybe 2,600 sqft vs my 2,100 sqft I returned to this spec house and said damn, I can't beat that deal. They had about half the framing done by then so I didn't get to spec out everything like I would have liked to but the price was awesome. A year later the builder told me he should have sat on them for another 6 months.

[Rick Potter]

When I bought my new tract home in 1973, I managed to do a few upgrades, but couldn't afford much. I got them to add electrical outlets, and extra outside hose bibs, and a few other minor things.

One day when the house was almost ready for drywall, I dropped by in the evening to see how it was going, and saw a man next door putting in insulation in the walls. Turned out he had bought that house and told me that insulation was not included, and he was doing it himself. Revelation!! I had never even thought of insulation.

Next morning I was at the builders office. He said if I wanted to put it in, I could, but had to stay out of the workers way......and that it was going to be drywalled in three days.

Take off work, beat feet down to the local Angels Hardware store, and bought insulation and a T50 staple gun (still have it). Picked up wife and toddler, and we insulated the heck out of that place. After the exterior walls, we did the interior walls of the bathrooms, stuffed insulation around the bathtub, and barely managed to insulate the ceiling of the family room between the upstairs and downstairs, before the drywallers caught up with us.

Boy, did that effort pay off. Out of maybe 40 houses in that group of 100 or so, only three were insulated...all done by homeowners in a hurry. Our utility bills were always less than others.

Interesting aside: Our house was finished in June 1973. Starting July 1, 1973, it was mandatory to insulate walls on all new construction, and the next group of homes in the tract had it.

Rick Potter

Oh yeah: 2200' house, good town, $40,950 in '73. Just before the market exploded. By the time they finished the tract two years later, the price was over 80K.