LV Small Shoulder Plane/plow plane conversion

[Don Rogers]

Let me be the first to admit my lack of knowledge concerning planes that make slots or rabbits in wood. I’m very much interested in tools, and want to learn about those things. I would like to make the planes describes by David Weaver in his “ http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214301-Time-to-build-two-quickie-drawer-grooving-planes-step-by-step” tutorial but have not gotten there yet.


I recently purchased a small shoulder plane (LV) and have ordered the LV small plow plane with the additional set of 4 imperial blades. The plow will give choices of 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, and 3/8” slots and the shoulder plane cuts 1/2” wide. I have yet to use the shoulder plane and, of course, do not have the plow pane yet. I also have a Stanley # 78 Duplex filletster and rabbet plane1-1/2” wide.


Is it better to purchase the plow wide blade conversion kit with a 1/2" blade or fit the shoulder plane with a depth stop and RA fence (reasonably easily made - don’t know if commercially available) to become a 1/2” plow plane? This is a rhetorical question as I do not have any immediate plans for doing so.



Also, is there a book or article available concerning the uses of theses planes ? That is without Googling and going thru lots of related but limited items.


Don

[Chris Griggs]

There is no readily available way to add a fence and depth stop to a shoulder plane and really if there were, it wouldn't make for a good plow. If you want to plow 1/2 grooves get the conversion kit or make one of the planes from Daves thread. Making one of those planes will be far easier and more effective than trying to make your shoulder plane do something it wasn't designed for.

[Don Rogers]

Thanks Chris - that's good advice.

Seems as soon as I think I have a decent question, the answer comes to me as soon as I press the post button. You are correct - for about $60.00 I could purchase the conversion kit and 1/2" blade and save myself the hassle of trying to modify something that was not meant to be.

Don

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Honestly, because you can take such a big "bite" with a narrow plow iron, I often find it much faster to use a narrow iron and two passes - I've got a 1/2" iron for my plow, but it's often quicker to take a narrow iron, rip through two narrow strips with as a deep a pass as I can take and then break out any remainder between the two plows with a pair of pliers and a quick clean with a chisel bevel down if the bottom isn't as smooth as I'd like.

[Don Rogers]

Joshua,

Never thought of doing it that way but it sounds good to me. Knowing very little about plow planes and never having seen or used one, I wouldn't have guessed.

Great idea and you probably saved me from buying the conversion kit and 1/2" blade. At least for now - maybe later the conversion kit will be purchased for making tongues.

Ordered the plow Friday morning but have not been notified about shipping yet. Can hardly wait.

Don

[paul cottingham]

Honestly, when I had that plow I only used it with the 1/4" blade. When I buy another one, I will only buy a 1/4" blade. I can't imagine how hard it would be to push with a 1/2" blade. And I'm a big, heavy guy.

[Jim Koepke]

I push 3/4" blades all the time with a Stanley 45, no problem. Can take a pretty thick cut if I want to go fast.

This is two bench stretchers being plowed to hold a bottom 'shelf' so there can be a storage area under the seat:

286154

This is a stopped plowing made easier by the dados for the leg half lap (is that what that would be?) joinery.

jtk

[Don Rogers]

Paul,

That's good to know.

I did order the set of flat blades from 1/8 to 3/8" and it's too late to back out now. My reasoning was that I did not know what it was going to be used for but I defiantly will not order the 1/2" blade and conversion kit at this time. I like Joshua's method of using a smaller blade to make a slot and then moving it over to widen it to what is needed. Seems like you could make any size slot (within reason) using that method.

Don

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[Don Rogers]

Jim,

Do you attribute that to characteristics of the Stanley 45 or do you feel the small LV plow would do the same ?

I do know that my Stanley #78 will do 1-1/4" wide rabits (not sure of this spelling) but I never tried it on a long board and have no idea how tiring that might be. I really do not expect to be doing large work but being retired, I can somehow find the time and work slowly if necessary.

Don

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

You certainly *can* push those wide blades in a plow - it's not really hard, honestly, as Jim shows. I was just throwing out there that you don't need them to do the work. It's also really helpful if you're plowing to be able to put something like plywood in the grooves, where the width may not be exactly on any of your blades, and you don't want to custom grind a blade, and don't really feel like rabbeting the plywood to fit. (Which is what I do with solid wood to be fitted in grooves)

A big part of my laziness of course, is that I usually already have a smaller blade set up in my plow, and that's honestly probably a bit part of why my method is faster for me sometimes. But with something like a 3/16 blade, I can rip up "shavings" that are more like long chips, I'm guessing a 1/16 or so.

I honestly don't use the wide blades in my plow that much, because once I get that wide, I'm probably either make a dado or rabbeting and not plowing, and I have a fillester plane for rabbets, and cross-grain work is obviously not the strong suit of a plow plane.

The speed with which you can rip out a huge shaving with a narrow plough iron can also help if you ever have to make a big rabbet in a large piece of wood - rather than spending forever turning a 3/4"x3/4" strip of wood into shavings, you can rip through with the plow from both sides, and you get a free little strip of wood at the end, too!

[Don Rogers]

Give me several hours to respond on this thread. Both my eyes have been dialated and injected about ab hour ago and I'm not seeing well yet. After lunch i will take my wife to her doctor and after that I have a dentist appt. See you later this afternoon.

Don

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

Do you attribute that to characteristics of the Stanley 45 or do you feel the small LV plow would do the same ?

I do know that my Stanley #78 will do 1-1/4" wide rabits (not sure of this spelling) but I never tried it on a long board and have no idea how tiring that might be. I really do not expect to be doing large work but being retired, I can somehow find the time and work slowly if necessary.

Don

The Stanley 45 is a fairly rugged plane. I also have the smaller Stanley 50 that surely could do the work.

A wider or a thicker cut will put added stress on the other components of a plane besides the blade.

It also takes more force. Depending on how thick of a shaving one is making.

It looks like the LV has a 3/4" blade available, so at least the makers feel it can handle the job.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

T

It looks like the LV has a 3/4" blade available, so at least the makers feel it can handle the job.



It can, I've done it with mine, although only a few times. It takes more effort and more attention to get a clean groove but its not difficult. You won't want to take quite as heavy a cut as one would with a narrow blade (it will clog in addition to being harder to push), but you can plow a 1/2-3/4 groove pretty darn quickly with out a lot of work.

[paul cottingham]

Yes, I forgot to mention that I have a serious problem with my hand, neuropathic pain, worsened by the terrible (for me) handle on an otherwise stellar tool. I stand by what I say though, I find the tool easiest (and least painful) to use with narrow blades, and observation I have had seconded by other woodworkers. I actually pull it now, (with great success) I might add.
As I have said many times before, I am only a marginal woodworker at best, so YMMV.

[Jim Matthews]

I use a Record version of the Stanley plow plane.

Rather than rely on the "nicker" spurs that never seem aligned with the blade,
I score a knife line where I want the groove.

That's trivial when going across the grain, but crucial when cutting with the grain.
It's all too easy for me to cut a groove that follows the grain path of least resistance.

I don't rely on the depth stops, either. Those seem to shift if I bear down too much.
My smallest square doubles as a depth gauge.

Remember, if you plow out deeper than the scored line at the shoulder,
it's all too easy to tear out more than you want.

That results in a groove that's too loose.

Score both sides, cut a few passes, repeat to desired depth.

[Don Rogers]

The Stanley 45 is a fairly rugged plane. I also have the smaller Stanley 50 that surely could do the work.

A wider or a thicker cut will put added stress on the other components of a plane besides the blade.

It also takes more force. Depending on how thick of a shaving one is making.

It looks like the LV has a 3/4" blade available, so at least the makers feel it can handle the job.

jtk

That is a good point. A 3/4' slot should not overtax the small plow plane for that reason - unless one tries to hog out too much.

I ran into a problem with the Stanley #78. that is keeping the plane straight so the rabbit does not lean. I suppose this is a matter of practice.

I'm glad for this posting - I'm learning lots of good information.

[Don Rogers]

You certainly *can* push those wide blades in a plow - it's not really hard, honestly, as Jim shows. I was just throwing out there that you don't need them to do the work. It's also really helpful if you're plowing to be able to put something like plywood in the grooves, where the width may not be exactly on any of your blades, and you don't want to custom grind a blade, and don't really feel like rabbeting the plywood to fit. (Which is what I do with solid wood to be fitted in grooves)

A big part of my laziness of course, is that I usually already have a smaller blade set up in my plow, and that's honestly probably a bit part of why my method is faster for me sometimes. But with something like a 3/16 blade, I can rip up "shavings" that are more like long chips, I'm guessing a 1/16 or so.

I honestly don't use the wide blades in my plow that much, because once I get that wide, I'm probably either make a dado or rabbeting and not plowing, and I have a fillester plane for rabbets, and cross-grain work is obviously not the strong suit of a plow plane.

The speed with which you can rip out a huge shaving with a narrow plough iron can also help if you ever have to make a big rabbet in a large piece of wood - rather than spending forever turning a 3/4"x3/4" strip of wood into shavings, you can rip through with the plow from both sides, and you get a free little strip of wood at the end, too!

You have lots of good information here and, honestly, I never knew most of it. Perhaps, after I get the plow plane, some might come to me and I might figure out some tricks on my own but it is really nice to learn from other's experience.

Of particular importance is knowing that one can make slots that are almost any width needed. I hate to admit it but this never occurred to me.

Good stuff !!!

[Don Rogers]

It can, I've done it with mine, although only a few times. It takes more effort and more attention to get a clean groove but its not difficult. You won't want to take quite as heavy a cut as one would with a narrow blade (it will clog in addition to being harder to push), but you can plow a 1/2-3/4 groove pretty darn quickly with out a lot of work.

More good information. Hope I can put all this to good use when the plow gets here.

[Don Rogers]

Yes, I forgot to mention that I have a serious problem with my hand, neuropathic pain, worsened by the terrible (for me) handle on an otherwise stellar tool. I stand by what I say though, I find the tool easiest (and least painful) to use with narrow blades, and observation I have had seconded by other woodworkers. I actually pull it now, (with great success) I might add.
As I have said many times before, I am only a marginal woodworker at best, so YMMV.

Paul,

Sorry to learn about your hand problems but glad to see you are working things out. Pulling the plow plane is one way to get good but least painful results.

I'm also glad to hear that you have not let this stop you from enjoying woodworking.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

That is a good point. A 3/4' slot should not overtax the small plow plane for that reason - unless one tries to hog out too much.

I ran into a problem with the Stanley #78. that is keeping the plane straight so the rabbit does not lean. I suppose this is a matter of practice.

I'm glad for this posting - I'm learning lots of good information.

The lean was an issue at first with my wooden moving filletster - even with a perfectly square fence, there's still a little "english" that comes to play. I generally play pretty rough with my fillester and refine with a rabbet plane if I need something a little more presentable or if things get too out of square. I've been tuning it a little bit every time I use it, though, and it's pretty spot on at this point, although still not "point and shoot".

A couple thoughts - making sure your fence is square helps a lot, as does a larger fence. Can you attach some wood to the fence? whether the blade is honed spot on is also key.

Outside of physical approach, the main thing I've found to look at is the blade itself - obviously, if the cutting edge isn't parallel to the sole, it'll cut more on one side than the other, making some problems, but the bigger problem in my experience is a blade that cuts evenly across the width of the sole, but projects unevenly along the sidewall - you don't have a lot of blade against the sidewall on a 78, but if the blade projects more from the side away from the cutting edge than it does at the cutting edge, it will subtly push the plane away from the rabbet. Often on wooden fillester planes, the blade will have a slight lean to it, in combination to the skew, to keep this from happening. On a non-skewed blade, any attempt to compensate for an out-of-square honing on the iron can result in a blade that projects more at the top of than the bottom of the iron and make problems. If the 78 has a notched blade as I recall, I'd think making sure that the area that extends out to the edge narrows as it moves away from the cutting edge might help, as long as you aren't so drastic you can't move the blade to the edge.

[Don Rogers]

I use a Record version of the Stanley plow plane.

Rather than rely on the "nicker" spurs that never seem aligned with the blade,
I score a knife line where I want the groove.

That's trivial when going across the grain, but crucial when cutting with the grain.
It's all too easy for me to cut a groove that follows the grain path of least resistance.

I don't rely on the depth stops, either. Those seem to shift if I bear down too much.
My smallest square doubles as a depth gauge.

Remember, if you plow out deeper than the scored line at the shoulder,
it's all too easy to tear out more than you want.

That results in a groove that's too loose.

Score both sides, cut a few passes, repeat to desired depth.

I see - keep scoring every few passes until reaching the final depth. I would have thought scoring would be needed only at the start - that is another valuable piece of information.

The knickers on my 78 appear unsharpened and I have not used them yet. Don't know if they line up with the blade or not. but will give them a try after sharpening. That may be my problem in keeping the slot sides vertical.

I have also not tried the 78 without a depth stop. Will do that also

Thanks for those tips.

I'm getting impatient - my plow plane shipment has been ready all day but no tracking info yet. Maybe tomorrow and then I'll know when it should be here.

[Cody Kemble]

I just found a 78 this past weekend that had its depth stop and fence. Maybe all the little parts weren't such a big deal.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I see - keep scoring every few passes until reaching the final depth. I would have thought scoring would be needed only at the start - that is another valuable piece of information.


Scoring is generally only needed every pass when working across the grain. Sometimes you can get a smoother finish working with grain if you score the first pass, but it's often not needed. Sometimes, depending on the depth of the rabbet, you can get by with only one deep score when working across the grain, but cutting those fibers along the edge is really going to help a lot for cleaner work. Scoring the back of the cut when across the grain will help prevent a lot of nasty tearout, but I just tend to make my cross-grain work before finish planing the edges.

[Don Rogers]

Scoring is generally only needed every pass when working across the grain. Sometimes you can get a smoother finish working with grain if you score the first pass, but it's often not needed. Sometimes, depending on the depth of the rabbet, you can get by with only one deep score when working across the grain, but cutting those fibers along the edge is really going to help a lot for cleaner work. Scoring the back of the cut when across the grain will help prevent a lot of nasty tearout, but I just tend to make my cross-grain work before finish planing the edges.

That's worth adding to my list of "Things to Learn About Plow Planing" and I will do so. Have you ever written a book on this subject? If not, you might consider it.
My new small plow plane is scheduled to be delivered this Thursday. I will be waiting.

[Jim Koepke]

One thing that seems to help me is to make sure the edges of the plow blades are smooth.

My experience is with the Stanley 45. The blade edges are slightly beveled with the wide point being at the cutting edge. Giving these a little work on a stone helps make the sides of the cut a bit smoother.

In cases where the grain is causing problems a swipe or two with a side rabbet cleans up a groove quickly. In my experience my wood is usually a little wider than my blade so the wood needs to be taken down or the groove needs to be widened. There are easy solutions either way.

jtk

[Don Rogers]

One thing that seems to help me is to make sure the edges of the plow blades are smooth.

My experience is with the Stanley 45. The blade edges are slightly beveled with the wide point being at the cutting edge. Giving these a little work on a stone helps make the sides of the cut a bit smoother.

In cases where the grain is causing problems a swipe or two with a side rabbet cleans up a groove quickly. In my experience my wood is usually a little wider than my blade so the wood needs to be taken down or the groove needs to be widened. There are easy solutions either way.

jtk

More good stuff.

I am assuming you are actually sharpening the sides of the blade with the stone. I can see how that would help produce a smooth wall in the slot.

In a somewhat similar way, but not the same, mortise chisels, as I understand, are trapezoidal in cross section and this produces a sharpness that shaves the mortise walls to the same width as the cutting edge. However, the cutting side width remains the same throughout the chisel's length. When driving a mortise chisel straight down the bevel moves the cutting edge away from the bevel thereby shaving the mortise sides. You already know this but I would appreciate confirmation of my reasoning.

[Jim Koepke]

More good stuff.

I am assuming you are actually sharpening the sides of the blade with the stone. I can see how that would help produce a smooth wall in the slot.

In a somewhat similar way, but not the same, mortise chisels, as I understand, are trapezoidal in cross section and this produces a sharpness that shaves the mortise walls to the same width as the cutting edge. However, the cutting side width remains the same throughout the chisel's length. When driving a mortise chisel straight down the bevel moves the cutting edge away from the bevel thereby shaving the mortise sides. You already know this but I would appreciate confirmation of my reasoning.

I do not go so far as to make a super sharp edge on the sides, but it isn't rough or rounded either.

It seems the mass of the mortise chisel just pushes wood out of the slot. Mortises tend to go with the grain so there are likely a few vectors of force at work here.

I love to analyze things to no end, but sometimes it is better to just let a tool do what it does best. Even though mortise work can be done with a regular bench chisel, it seems to work best with a mortise chisel.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If you look at vintage (wooden) plows, often the irons are slightly wider at the cutting edge than where the iron flares out to body - again, this keeps the side of the iron from rubbing on things if the plow isn't perfectly perpendicular.

[Don Rogers]

I do not go so far as to make a super sharp edge on the sides, but it isn't rough or rounded either.

It seems the mass of the mortise chisel just pushes wood out of the slot. Mortises tend to go with the grain so there are likely a few vectors of force at work here.

I love to analyze things to no end, but sometimes it is better to just let a tool do what it does best. Even though mortise work can be done with a regular bench chisel, it seems to work best with a mortise chisel.

jtk

I understand about the plow blade edges.

In reference to the mortise chisel, you are right about vector forces forcing the mortise chisel in unknown directions. My analysis did not consider grain or other defects in the wood. In fact, I have trouble making a mortise side straight even with a guide block but will continue to practise.

[Don Rogers]

If you look at vintage (wooden) plows, often the irons are slightly wider at the cutting edge than where the iron flares out to body - again, this keeps the side of the iron from rubbing on things if the plow isn't perfectly perpendicular.

I see. Now all I have to do is somehow keep the 78 perpendicular to the work to keep the slightly tapered blade edges from scraping the wall of the slot. I'm hoping the fence on my new plow will help in that respect. I understand that a wider wood fence can be made for it.