In Praise of the Stockman Pattern

[David Weaver]

George brought up stockman knives a couple of weeks ago, and I recall my grandfather carrying either a stockman pattern knife or something very similar to a stockman knife. He was a farmer, a sometimes woodworker, welder, you name it. If he needed to cut something, out came the pocket knife - food, wood, twine, whatever.

I kind of got the gist over the years that no sharp pocket knife was safe if the back didn't lock, so everything I have (before these) locks, but none of it is really suitable to use as an all-everything in the shop.

A couple of months ago I got an opinel #6, which is a really interesting knife - very hard sharp carbon steel, locks, about $12 or something, and the only thing really wrong with it is that the locking mechanism is a pain if you're in the middle of something.

So I ordered some stockman pattern knives, and a sodbuster pattern just on the side for something interesting. None of these lock, I guess they're called slide lock or something where the profile of the spring in the back of the knife holds them open.

Top to bottom, a puma, case, and old carbon steel kabar, boker tree brand (germany) and on the left just for giggles, a sodbuster pattern from a company called bear and son (which I got specifically because it was available in 1095).

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The sodbuster is just a single blade, and maybe more of a general knife to have around to cut up boxes or open pallets or whatever. It's easy to sharpen and keep sharp. I haven't used it much yet.

Here are these five in various states of open. I couldn't open all three blades on some of them at once, because the two short blades are on the same spring, and that's tight on a couple of them.

286054286055

I've kept the case in my pocket for the last week after sharpening it on oilstones. It's chrome vanadium, which is case's base offering and something close to older carbon steel as far as pocket knives go (there are a lot sold in stainless steel, and the only thing satisfactory that I've seen is solingen steel marked "inox" and that's not going to show up often on inexpensive pocketknives).

The stockmans have a clip style blade (the long one), a sheepsfoot (the flat one) and then some type of spear point or spey blade (speys were the castrating blade, because they would cut but not puncture - the case has the spey replaced by a pen knife blade, but I'm sure you can get one with a spey blade. I guess a penknife makes more sense ).

I will take one of the other three other than the case and grind most of the bevel off of one side of the sheepsfoot blade so I can carry it in my pocket and use it as a marking knife. I'd like to be able to move around the shop with my marking blade in my pocket.

I kind of like carrying one of these around the shop rather than having several knives strewn around. There are lots of premiums stockman knives for $100 or so, and there are lots of chinese stockman knives for $10 - $20. I'm not really into either of those. something made properly, that will sharpen on anything and that i'm not afraid to damage but that will still hold its edge as good.

There is also a minefield of branding out there right now. I don't know if any case stuff is made overseas, but puma (pumatec) and boker (boker plus or something) have high volume asian production blades that boast of being "made of german steel". They are probably good for $15, but steel that is too soft will drive anyone crazy in the shop, and at this point, the asian factories don't seem to be able to do the same good with steel as the german factories - it seems as though the north american and euro makers can do more with a lower grade of steel than the asian factories can with a given spec a notch or two up.

[David Weaver]

Which one I like the most so far:
* the sodbuster is too big. There's a jr sodbuster pattern, I probably should've gotten that
* I haven't cleaned up the Kabar yet - it looks bad, but it will clean up nicely
* the two german stockmans are probably the most nicely made, and definitely the most nicely ground. Someone on a late friday afternoon couldn't be bothered to get the puma medallion in straight, but that doesn't affect much in use.
* The case is smaller than the others, and the blades are closer together, so they rub each other a little bit and mark each other in use. I don't love that, but of the three new and newish knives, I think I like it the most because it's smallest and when you put it in your pocket in the shop. Case also has the snap on the blades just right - snap being the mechanism locking the blade open and closing it. It's consistent, strong and just the right amount. The two german knives have better blades on them probably, but the snap isn't quite as good. It's fine, but it's a lot like having a car with a clutch that's just right. You get from A to B the same, but that snap is lovely.

As far as the locking goes, I have sharpened the case to translucent. It will shave hair, and is plenty sharp, but not blinding razor sharp. I also didn't thin the bevel way down to make a really acute angle, rather just made them ever so slightly more acute than the fairly blunt grind they come with. If I snap one on my finger, I'll get cut, but I haven't done anything in the last week with the case, marking, etc, cutting boxes, whatever, where' I've felt like there was any chance of the blades snapping shut.

The aforementioned inexpensive opinel has the best steel of any of these things in terms of being similar to woodworking steel, and it locks, but I'd much rather use the case because it's just much smoother and quicker in use than the opinel.

[Tony Zaffuto]

How do you like the Bear knife? It is American made and their knives are priced reasonably. I had one, a Barlow, but I lost it. Took an edge well, but it disappeared early in its life. If I'm not mistaken, the company was a successor/and or bought the remnants of another well known US maker.

[David Weaver]

It's a very nicely made knife for a production knife. The steel is about right to resist chipping (it's just a tad soft, but harder than something like a premium saw).

a lot of these knives look like they're pulled through something to get the primary grind on them, so like the case, I had to grind off a tiny heel before they were ready to just give way to sharpening evenly across the bevel on a stone. It was only a 5 or 10 minute process (to get the heel off and to get the knife sharp), though, and the 1095 is very yielding to oilstones - comes right off and comes up to a pleasing polish.

Which company is up there in your direction, great eastern or something or other? In all of the reviews I read of the case knives, people said they had gone downhill and that or a similar knife from a better maker was a good idea. That's probably the situation, but I ebay has really ruined antique shops for old knives of good quality, and this case is fine if you can get past the fact that the blades mark each other (i can).

Anyway, I can't find any fault with the bear, especially for the price (the big sodbuster is about $32 delivered - case makes one cheaper but it's stainless and the reviews said their stainless is softer, and i'm sure there's a reason for that - i just don't want it).

It'd be nice of all makers had a nod toward hand sharpeners for their grinds, but I doubt most people can competently sharpen a knife from heel to point freehand on stones, and most of these things probably end up in a box, or getting sharpened by a bunch of compound on a lap or belt.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Great Eastern, Queen, Schatt & Morgan. I have several of each and I prefer the Schatt. Take a peek at "Collector Knives" website. No connection to the guy, but good to deal with - I've 3 or 4 dozen pocket knives from him over the years.

[george wilson]

I am surprised that you like the Opinel so much. Perhaps they have gotten better,but back in the 80's I was in a gun shop and they were saying how worthless the Opinels are. I'm glad to hear it though. Opinels are simple and cleverly made.

Let us know how you like the Kabars when you get to them,since I recommended old Kabars,and the Puma too,actually.

[David Weaver]

The puma and the boker are probably better knives than their prices would've belied - I got them NOS on ebay and not from a dealer. The boker tree was $29 shipped, which looks like it's a lot less than they sell for from dealers. The puma was $49 including shipping. Not cheap, but not expensive.

I think the germans sometimes take liberties with styles of things, though, and they don't have a whole lot of sense when they do. If you look at the bottom of the puma stockman, it comes down into a V instead of the same bottom profile the rest of the knives have, and to put it lightly, their idea was not an improvement in looks. It reminds me of what happens when the japanese try to take liberties on american style tools.

AS far as the opinel, it has some virtues and is lacking others. It's virtues are:
* the carbon steel is pretty hard and gets sharp easily
* it locks
* it comes with a very gradual grind and delicate edge instead of a blocky grind that you have to thin out

Things that are lacking are:
* the blade isn't exactly straight, which means the first hone is pretty nasty. Reminds me of a warped razor, and there's no virtue in a warped razor.
* the beech handle is too light. When you get used to a good knife, the opinel is lacking in feel - the blade is made thin to compensate for it, so the whole thing is just really lightweight
* the locking mechanism works, but it doesn't turn nicely and could be a lot better

It's defense is it's cheap. I can't think of anything else that has steel as good for as cheap. I'll bet a lot of people get them because they're cheap and then can't get over the fact that they're missing weight. I have no idea what good one of the really big ones would be.

[Steve Bates]

Nice thread, Mister Weaver. I've carried a stockman pattern knife daily since I was ten years old. Mine have been the smaller versions of the standard stockman pattern. I started with an Imperial knife carbon steel, still have it. Blades rusted easily, so I looked for a stainless model. Bought four or five Buck knives over the years, lost them all but the last. Now I've got an Old Henry. So I've got three folders.

Never tried a single bevel on a blade. I'll try to find a small peanut two blade to give that a whirl. One ground left and one ground right should do the trick.

That snap you refer to on the case is called "walk and talk" IIRC. The snap is the "talk". The "walk" is the smoothness in the pivot of the blades opening and closing.

I've an Opinel also. Good simple design, good steel. That round handle just fills up my pocket so I don't carry it much.

I'm afraid to go look at that collector knife site. Might get expensive quickly.

My two pennies

[Sean Hughto]

I love me some folding knife porn! I'm not a serious collector, but more just an enthusiast stemming from boyhood and scouts like, like most guys I suppose. I like carving and whittling, so I tend to the whittler patterns, though I like the nostalgic scout campers too.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7085/13518601984_48f73114c6_c.jpg

The little pearl handled Queen is great for the pocket as it is light and small.
The Catteraugus is a really great vintage knife with ebony handles and nice older steel.
The Northwest tortoise shell is decent for a modern knife, but I wouldn't go out of my way for another.
The Henckels with the horn handles is really sweet - well made German with good steel.
The Oar carver is probably my most used and most practical knife for carving handles and things on projects - couldn't do without it.

On the right are some Camillus and an Ulster scout knives. Handy for hiking and such.
The big Morgan and Schatt congress in green bone is a swell knife but really big and heavy - I don't really need four blades like that.
The Marbles is one of the those modern small batch things - MSA Gladstone - and I really like it - nice big main blade and useful smaller blade.

Pocket knives are just fun.

[Tony Zaffuto]

David, if you like Boker (the German made), keep an eye out for Henckel pocket knives, as Boker made them. Not made anymore, but there is still some NOS out there, at prices lower than Boker and for practical purposes, identical except for name/label. Sean, Schatt is my favorite modern maker, though made by Queen today. They're a bit higher priced than Queen and advertised as "workhorse" knives.

[bob blakeborough]

I have a ton of pocket knives as well and always have one in my pocket or on my belt. I love all the different patterns for various reasons. Best bang for the buck definitely goes to my Opi's. They get super sharp and work like a hot dang and if you lose one you are not out a lot of money. I have plenty of vintage knives as well as new. Stockman patterns are always useful. I frequently carry a good old fashioned Barlow pattern as well.

Now the one knife that I always have a thing for are French Laguiole's. My wife and I go to France now and again and have friends that farm in the region Laguiole is, so all the old guys got me hooked on these knives they all carry. I now have 5 of them in various materials and sizes that I get built for me by the fellow who owns the Laguiole en Aubrac shop in St-Emilion. He is an awesome knife builder and is a super cool guy. This year I am going to be picking up another while we are there this summer. I have to let him know ahead of time so he will custom build it rather than one off the shelf he builds on spec. It is pretty awesome as every Laguiole en Aubrac knife is built from beginning to end by one guy. I have one of these on my belt or in my pocket 95% of the time!

http://www.laguiole-en-aubrac.fr/anglais/sommaire.html

[Sean Hughto]

Very cool, Bob! There seems to be a very complex set of options, so teach me Obi Wan, what specs would one list for a light-ish single blade for the pocket or small belt sheath to carry for cutting rope and peeling apples or cutting cheese stuff? I have French Canadian ancestry (Hughto probably used to be spelled Huteau or some such) and I think it would be cool to have an artisan made French knife. Thanks!

[Paul Incognito]

what specs would one list for a light-ish single blade for the pocket or small belt sheath to carry for cutting rope and peeling apples or cutting cheese stuff?
I like how you're thinking Sean! Checking out their site, there's lots of options...
Paul

[Sean Hughto]

That's what I mean, Paul. There are too many confusing choices. It would be one thing if you were standing there with the maker and could see and feel the differences, but as a non-aficionado, I don't even know what some of those things are!

[David Weaver]

A quick look on amazon shows the boker trees that go on ebay are $22 or $23 new, so as David says, it looks like it's a pretty knife that the underlying lack of case-like snap gives it away. I guess the steel of that knife will tell the story once it's used - but the price makes it the best candidate of the bunch to have the sheepsfoot blade ground down to be a marking knife, and it's stainless so it doesn't have to leave the shop.

The sheepsfoot is the blade that makes the whole thing worth having in the shop, anyway. Short and with a strong point.

[David Weaver]

Ground the sheepsfoot blade to single bevel on the boker and it does actually make a very very nice marking knife. Without the sheepsfoot, it wouldn't make much of a knife in the shop, but with the bevel ground to one side and with the sheepsfoot profile it's super nice to use as a marking knife.

Wouldn't work great in tight dovetails, but I have another knife already that would work fine like that (many of us do), and I use a pencil when I can, anyway.

My prior favorite knife for marking stuff like deep lines to mark a tenon is a cheap pfeil chip carving knife like this
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/700920/Pfeil-Chip-Carving-Knife-Shape-1-Blade-Width-9-mm.htm;jsessionid=7ABA336E3D6892C2B1F198AAD4DDB363

But it always irritates me that I can't walk around the shop with it in my pocket.

There are worse places to park money than hacking up what turns out to be a fairly inexpensive (at $22 shipped on amazon if I were a smarter buyer the second time) a german made boker stockman to use instead. Even if it doesn't quite measure up to the case.

[David Weaver]

Details on the steels in the knives:
* case, chrome vanadium (who knows what, not spectacularly hard, but decent enough). Case sells all kinds of stuff, though, and the stainless is easier to find.
* boker - no clue 440A, 420HC, 440C? I doubt it's 440C for $22 or $23
* ka-bar - 1095 (thanks to google, kabar used 1095 for 50 something years - not surprisingly, the rust looks horrible like old razors do, and cleans off to fairly innocent shallow pits - like old razors often do, though nobody accepts razors like that because there are plenty around. That substantiates george's story to me about someone else's kabar being unexpectedly sharp)
* puma - 440C - on the older ones . The newer ones spec 440A unless they say 440C specifically (which appears to be only solingen made knives where the entire knife is solingen). The top of the puma solingen range in hardness spec is 60, above most of the other production knives. If you can dodge the minefield of knives that are made or partially made in china, the solingen made knife new price makes it worth finding them used.
* bear and son- 1095 also - can't knock 1095 on a knife where you'll see any rust before it turns into a large bloom.

Tony mentioned queen, and schatt and something - queen uses a lot of D2 now, at one point they apparently used 440A, ATS 34 and 440C, and before that some variant of 1095. The schatt knives are still available in 1095, and the queen stockman is in D2. But queen's D2 isn't driven to end of the world hardness, and like the rest of where these knives claim to be, it's somewhere in the 57/58 range (which is nice, grinding nicks out of a a pocket knife blade would be a waste).

TFWW used to carry queen, maybe they still do, I can't get their link to work right in chrome. There's some guy on ebay selling queens for about 2/3rds of list (and a lot of guys selling them at list) so I snapped one of those up, too, for comparison.

Anyway, in looking around at this stuff, It's nice to see that there are so many makers still making decent stuff in the US:
* Moore maker (haven't tried it)
* Great eastern
* Queen and the subbrands they're marketing
* Case
* Buck (if you avoid the chinese stuff)
* Bear

And ontario cutlery is still making very inexpensive 1095 kitchen knives of the old pattern (you'd recognize it if you see it).

One thing that I was a little bit surprised by is in looking around at various woodworking suppliers (just because I know they would do their due diligence in getting something decent), LV had nothing of note in terms of pocket knives. I think they should stock a stockman. Rob, you reading?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

As a kid, I had and lost several Scharade knives. I know the new ones are made in China, but the old ones seemed pretty good. Anyone compare a vintage Uncle Henry or an Old Timer to your lineups, just curious if they stand up to the ones you all listed.

[David Weaver]

My dad's got a couple of vintage schrades, and I have a keychain USA schrade. I had no interest in which knives were better than others as a small kid going through dad's pocket knife collection, though, and just liked the sharpest one to whittle, so I don't know how good they are. I hope my dad never reads this....but he doesn't really know the difference between the bad ones and the good ones, either, he just picks them up cheap.

He almost gave me a vintage camillus carbon steel hunting knife last time we were there....and a large vintage washita. Until we cleaned off the washita stone and used it to sharpen the camillus, and suddenly he was a little more attached to them.

Anyway, I'd bet most of the good older knives were made with 1095, and it'll be hard to find a modern reasonable knife that's nicer to use on the balance of sharpening and use.

[Tony Zaffuto]

The Bear & Son plant was a former Case Cutlery sister plant. Also a couple of the founders were formerly with Gerber.

Also there are some Bokers that are not of Solingen origin.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, it appears that there are a lot of bokers and pumas that are not Solingen origin and there (just like all of the "international" versions of henckels and such kitchen knives).

And there are some unscrupulous sellers on the web who charge big for some of the Pacific rim origin knives with German names.

It looks like all-german pumas might be kaput or close to it.

[george wilson]

I consider the old Schrades to be very poor knives. Way too soft and did not hold an edge well. I took the blade out of one I bought back in the early 80's and made a blade for it after I'd tried it out for a while.

As for D2,I have made knives from it,but would not any more. I've posted a D2 Bowie here I made years ago. I have a D2 Queen knife. What I have found about D2 steel is it just won't QUITE stay razor sharp. It loses some of its sharp edge and seems to stay there,just below real sharp. The Queen I carry is very easy to open,and is a locking knife. I just use it for opening boxes and "junk work". My SHARP knife is a NOS York from the 1950's made in Germany. Called "The Hunter's Friend". It is not stainless,and will take a very sharp edge,and holds it pretty well. I carry them in an external scabbard a leather worker made for me. Keeping the York outside my pocket keeps it from rusting and getting pocket worn.

D2 is a steel made for high wear resistance in shear blades for cutting other steel,but it just doesn't work well for knife blades. It has very high carbon,and 12% chrome,and other alloys,but just won't quite hold a razor sharp edge.

I have a 19th. C. Scottish made knife my wife bought for me at a flea market in Pa. back in the 80's. I can't recall the brand offhand. It had a "magnetic blade",which was still magnetic. The main blade was so worn that I made a replacement blade from 52100 ball bearing steel. Highly touted by some knife makers. I've not been overly impressed with the steel,but it could have been how I hardened and tempered it. The stuff decarbs badly if exposed to the air when hot. I might be at fault there. Next blade will be 1095 for it. It is a rather large 3 blade whittler. Very severe,no bolsters. The small blades get extremely sharp. Handles are "English Buffalo",which is green dyed cow horn,but now faded to a sort of blackish gray. Checkered all over. I ought to reproduce it. It was a high quality knife(still is). The old Scottish things I have found are always of fine quality. I quit carrying it due to the main blade,but it is also illegal due to the length of the blade being longer than the width of my palm. I went into a restaurant full of policemen carrying it in my scabbard,but no one said anything!!:) Guess an old duff doesn't look like trouble!!

Any knives I make from now on will be plain 1095 steel. I made Jon's retirement knife from 1095 at his request. It is a simple steel,but will take the sharpest edge of any of the steels that I am currently aware of. Not much experience yet with powdered steels,though. Could they be a whole new ballpark? I do plan to make a PM VII folding knife one of these days. I'll see how it does at that future date.

Sean,I wish I could find an original Marbles knife. Several years ago I saw at a show they had started making them again,and the dealer said they were 1095 blades. But,that didn't last long before they went Chinese,and are all over Ebay for a few dollars. I have no idea what their quality is now. I've thought about buying one,and making a new blade for it from 1095 for my own use.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, D2 is "eh", but it's definitely better than 440A that queen had been using for a short period of time. It has to be brought to final sharpness with something artificial, at least when it's 60 hardness or in that ballpark. Maybe if these knives middle at 57, it will be a different story.

I wonder if schrades are inconsistent. My keychain knife just says "schrade+ USA SP1" on it the blade and it's plenty hard.

[Mel Fulks]

Well, now that you have found a good one .....they are inconsistent.

[David Weaver]

Could very well have been made in an entirely different plant than the ones george mentioned, too. I think Queen may have made some of schrade's offerings.

[george wilson]

The D2 is PLENTY hard. It just doesn't hold a super sharp edge due to the alloys in it. It is nearly stainless,too,due to 12% chrome. That is just below the normal chrome content for stainless steel. I'm not all that familiar with stainless steels because I just don't care for it for aesthetic reasons. I finally did buy a Ruger Old Army revolver in stainless. I don't have to worry about quickly cleaning it after shooting black powder. But,I still am not crazy about its looks. If I was a hunter,and would be out in the rain in the woods,I would sort of be forced to carry a stainless rifle,I suppose. Probably with a (yuck) plastic stock!!

[bob blakeborough]

Very cool, Bob! There seems to be a very complex set of options, so teach me Obi Wan, what specs would one list for a light-ish single blade for the pocket or small belt sheath to carry for cutting rope and peeling apples or cutting cheese stuff? I have French Canadian ancestry (Hughto probably used to be spelled Huteau or some such) and I think it would be cool to have an artisan made French knife. Thanks!I love these knives!

The history associated with these knives is fantastic!!! From the cross being there so the herders could plant it in the ground or in some bread and use it as an alter/rosary while being away in the hills for weeks on end to working in cafes and using the corkscrew on that same knife to serve wine etc...

My preference is to the traditional carbon blade as I really like how easily they get extremely sharp, and I like the patina that develops, although if you like a more durable edge that doesn't patina then you might prefer the 12c27 stainless steel blades. I have both and like both for different reasons.

If you really want a more true, traditional Laguiole knife, the solid horn scales with a carbon blade, piercer and corkscrew and brass bolsters is pretty much as rural farmer as it gets. When we stay on my friends family farm in Lacapelle Bleys, probably 90% of the men there carry this configuration in the 13cm closed length (approx 4 5/8" closed). The blade itself is about 3 5/8th long. This is a pretty long knife but it is by no means cumbersome. I find it to be a perfect day to day knife for me, on the belt or in the pocket, although these days I find I like on the belt a bit better. The solid horn is really beautiful with colours ranging from creamy off whites to milk chocolate browns in the same piece, and the feel in hand is super smooth and warm. The reason this became the most popular is probably due to availability of materials in days past as well as cost as quite frankly, it is the least expensive option typically (other than pressed horn but avoid that for durability reasons), and when you work day in and out with these knives you probably don't want to thrash the more expensive options.

While horn is most popular with the traditional locals, they will also have scales made from local woods such as juniper (I have one this way as well. The juniper handle give off an amazing scent!), olive wood or even from retired grape vine stock, as well as bone although I was surprised how few bone knives I saw.

Nowadays, you have a massive range of options such as fossilized ivory from mammoth tusk or even mammoth molar, rams crust (I have one made from this and it it really beautiful!!!), buffalo horn, turquoise, etc as well as a worldwide variety of wood options. Also, more modern enthusiasts might choose to use stainless steel bolsters rather than brass.

Now you of course have many size options and depending on you own preferences, you can get some all the way down to 7 cm closed. I picked up a couple of these for my kids, but they will be a simple single blade in the smaller sizes and not have the corkscrew or piercer as an option. Also, depending on your blade of preference, you may be limited to the length you can get in a certain style. I have one complete custom built knife that was only available in the 12cm or 13cm length. It is a single Brut de Forge carbon blade only, has rams crust scales, hand hammered bolsters, and hand carved double plates. This is quite a valuable piece so it is carried on special occasions (yeah I am that weirdo!). My daily carries vary between the cow horn scaled version with brass bolsters and the juniper scaled, stainless blade and bolsters.

Really, if you plan on getting one, either resign yourself to going true solid cow horn traditional and love it just for that, or custom build it however puts a smile on your face. The prices can go up a ton when you start playing around a lot so be aware. A knife can be anywhere from 40 or 50 euro up to well over 600 euro, or even more I am sure! If you are really interested, I might be able to pick you one up while I am in St-Emilion this summer and ship it to you when I get back. It would probably save you a bit of money and I always love buying knives, even if it is for someone else! lol!

I will have to take a few pics when I have a bit of time and show you the ones I have...

And I should mention as well, those are some sweet examples of traditional American David and Sean! I will post up a few of mine as well soon!

[David Weaver]

The D2 is PLENTY hard. It just doesn't hold a super sharp edge due to the alloys in it. It is nearly stainless,too,due to 12% chrome. That is just below the normal chrome content for stainless steel. I'm not all that familiar with stainless steels because I just don't care for it for aesthetic reasons. I finally did buy a Ruger Old Army revolver in stainless. I don't have to worry about quickly cleaning it after shooting black powder. But,I still am not crazy about its looks. If I was a hunter,and would be out in the rain in the woods,I would sort of be forced to carry a stainless rifle,I suppose. Probably with a (yuck) plastic stock!!

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/Gramercy%20D2.html

Brent Beach's edge progression probably details why it doesn't seem that sharp almost right away. It looks like it fails in little bits and bumps, but no big pieces ever seem to come out.

Compare that to the size of the particles that come off of a tsunesaburo blade.

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/TSUtest.html

My knives are more likely to get this kind of wear than they are of the garbage can smashing hammer chiseling kind of nonsense seen on youtube.

Compare that to defective A2 (I have one of these shepherd irons, it's better than this one, but it does provide surprise chips on a fairly regular basis).

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/sha2test.html

[Richard Line]

I've got an Opinel. I agree with all you said about them, but I'll add. I think they are really made as a food knife, not a true pocket knife. That thin blade with a sharp edge cuts cheese, meat, fruits..., very well. I don't think they are truly good as a pocket knife or for utility type work because the blade attachment to the handle doesn't look to me that it will stand the strain typical for that type of knife. Still, I like it as a knife to carry to a picnic.

[David Weaver]

Excellent point about the opinel, esp. if one was had in stainless (not that a food knife needs to be stainless).

[David Weaver]

Found an unused schrade USA uncle henry tonight in a medium size, similar to the pictured case (which is nicer for carrying around all day when you already have other things in your pockets).

The only other knife I'd like to have is a camillus 67, but I"m waiting for a good one.

George sparked this talk with the kabar. My kabar is cleaning up nicely, but air force or military knife that my dad uses (or used to use) on deer is a bit harder, and sure enough after looking around, the kabars are tempered a tick or two softer (the camillus might be just a bit hard). That camillus of my dad's is really one of those knives where you touch it on stones and it's icy hard sharp.

My grandfather on my dad's side had a camillus, I don't know if it was a stockman, but it was something like that. I suppose it's long gone now. He was a college educated man who owned a medium sized farm, and grew up on that farm, but he was not the same kind of dig-a-potato- out- of- the- ground- and- pull- the- stockman- out- of- your- pocket- that- you- just- used- to- dig- crap- out- of- your- boot- tread- and- cut- the- eyes- out- of- your- raw- dirty- potato- and- eat- it kind of farmer my mom's dad was. A dirt farmer they called him. He could withhold pleasure from himself indefinitely in every single setting except the dinner table, and worked harder than anyone I've ever met, to the point that it was physically crazy. My wife's grandfather had the same knife philosophy. A wipe on the pants counts for sterilized.

Thanks for indulging me on this trip of excess (I guess I have 6 stockmans now from this little foray, even the queen that i initially set out to avoid), but I guess it's as much as remembering my grandfather using a completely worn down sheepsfoot blade to eat a raw potato right out of the garden as it really is about the knives.

And as an aside, the modified sheepsfoot blade on the boker knife really does make a better knife for marking off than anything else I have, and I've got several purpose made marking knives. I guess it's the weight, but whatever it is, it'll be useful. Same price as a pfeil chip carving knife, but three blades instead of one and you can put it in your pocket.

And one other aside, for the folks looking at this who might like a medium or large stockman to carry in their pocket - the case brand chrome vanadium stockmans on ebay are fairly inexpensive. I almost snagged another delrin yellow handled chrome vanadium (which really is kind of a nice steel in a knife) medium stockman off of a seller on ebay - $25. Made in the US and all and out of steel that rusts. The guy has sold 513 of them already. But the camillus curiosity got me instead. If I only didn't have a wife who sounded off every time something showed up at the door.

[steven c newman]

Afraid my knives are a bit limited. Do have an old barlow, somewhere around the house. Used to have a K-bar pattern knife, that was made from the leaf-spring of a blown up 3/4 ton US Army truck. a "local' made a few knives out of the springs.

Right now, the go-to knife is a black metal one286209Yeah, yeah, just a Leatherman. This one is a Skeletool, with just a single blade. Seems to do all I need for it to do, sharpens nicely on an oil stone. At the time of this picture, it was marking cut lines for a few dovetails.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thanks for digging up a few good memories here too David. I remember my grandfather using his for everything from fixing a sweep tooth in the field, to cutting calves, to digging cactus out of grandkids. That last one always terrified the subject, because they were fully aware of the knifes other uses...

[Tony Zaffuto]

David,

I have two of the Case with the yellow Delrin scales. To me, easily one of the best Case values and a very comfortable carry. For artificial scales, I like the way they look after being carried for a couple of months - gets a nice, matte smoothed feel to them, as the blade does also.

[David Weaver]

I got three more over the last week or so.

One is an old queen, small (medium I guess) sized stockman in 440 C. It's a nice tidy little knife, but on a scale of 1-10 in difficulty opening, the clip blade is a 9, the sheepsfoot is about 3 and the spey blade is almost impossible to open - it would break a fingernail to try (thus it's not open in these pictures - I actually haven't gotten it open at all yet).
The new one has much nicer action, case-ish feel, but it's not quite as nice as the case stockman I got. Where it bests the case is none of the blades rub together and mark each other. Everything can be opened, but the two small blades are a bit weak.
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The fit of all of them isn't generally any better than the case (the case has a better polish including on the springs on the outside of the knife).

I also got, and didn't get a picture of it yet - a Schrade+ 897 (which is a small/medium stockman size). It is really a pleasant surprise how nice it is. Schrade didn't polish the blades, which isn't something I care too much about, anyway. The blades are very even and somewhat easy to open, but very satisfying in terms of snap. Very nearly as good as the case. I'd say in the exchange of things, I like the schrade better than the queens and it cost 1/2 and 1/3rd of the queen knives (depending on which one).

The last thing I got, just out of curiosity, is a chinese made boker. It didn't arrive yet, though. I'm curious about it because it's 440C (which is apparently hard to do well) and super cheap. I expect that it will not be as nice as any of the other knives, and the 440C won't be done as well as puma would've done it, but then again, a chinese made boker is about $12, you still get three blades, and one of them is the sheepsfoot blade that can be used as a marking knife. It would have to be extremely poorly done to not be satisfactory at that.

The little case is still my favorite so far. I like the chrome vanadium steel (which is closer to what we're used to on tool steel than most of the rest of the stuff used in knives), and its walk and talk, as David put it, is just right in the sweet spot.

[Winton Applegate]

. . . does your knife have a flash light and a ball point pen in it?
No ?
Mine does. And an orange peeler but I don't want to brag.
Ha, ha,
http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Swiss-Midnite-Minichamp-Sapphire/dp/B001V2E1FQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396846005&sr=8-1&keywords=swiss+army+knife+lite
a great little knife. The battery lasts a long time and the light is bright enough.
The knife is tiny; way smaller than I thought it was going to be when I ordered it. Still plenty useful though.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2373_zps71f7d568.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2373_zps71f7d568.jpg.html)


Ian Kirby used the non lock back Bantam as his marking knife.
http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Swiss-53941-Bantam-Pocket-Knife/dp/B000G1NF8C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1396846801&sr=8-2&keywords=swiss+army+victorinox+knife+bantam

I have never really needed a lock back (though I have several that happened to come with the lock) but the only knife that has come close to folding on my fingers during use is the Opinel because I get lazy and don't turn the cuff and there is no walking talking spring and stop feature.
I bought a couple of Opinels (one for SWMBO) in the late '90s when I worked at a store that I could get them at emp. discount. Nice steel.

Here is my latest I-bought-it-because-I-just-wanted-it knife. It feels great in the hand in various hand holds to use for a number of tasks. I think it is a great design. Has a very robust lock on the blade. See my review on Amazon under "Barkingmad".

http://www.amazon.com/Cold-Steel-20MT-Mini-Plain/dp/B004MNAKYM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396847178&sr=8-1&keywords=cold+steel+tuff+lite+mini


As I posted before I have a left and right reground blade swiss army for layout
One each of these two knives; partly because I really needed the ultra precise pliers in the one and the relatively large scissors in the other and did not want the over size of the all in one Champ model knife.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007QCORY/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007QCOX8/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I resharpened my Bantam to a very shallow angle and it is a surprisingly useful every day cutter and blazes through thick wire ties that when steeply beveled (factory grind) it couldn't dream of cutting.

[Tony Zaffuto]

If anyone wants to play around with Chinese made knives, the web dealer to look & buy from is "Smokey Mountain Knife Works" (SMKW). SMKW actually owns most of the names of old time, American knife makers, with offerings that run from selling and looking cheap to better manufactured knives. Out of curiosity I both a "Rough Rider" barlow (their own named brand), that used 440C. Cost was about $15 or so (IIRC) and very well made. It took a bit of time to get a good edge on (Lansky style sharpener, synthetic oil stones), but the edge holds and holds. In fact this knife, because it was so cheap, is a real beater, yet the edge keeps holding. As a point of reference, fit and finish was well above "Bear and Son", that was recently mentioned.

Another American maker, that I don't think has been mentioned is Utica. They are still in operation and I had one, but lost it.

[David Weaver]

I wondered about the rough riders, because they are everywhere, and I've seen a couple of comments about their fit and finish being a match for american knives. I really like good 440c and cm154, despite the enthusiast forums suggestion that its out of date.

I looked through the Utica knife reviews and got the sense that their QC isn't up to snuff at this point.

My bear knife has a slight issue with the grind, too, though it doesn't affect anything ( there is a step in the blade thickness).

[David Weaver]

. . . does your knife have a flash light and a ball point pen in it?
No ?
Mine does. And an orange peeler but I don't want to brag.
Ha, ha,
(http://www.amazon.[/QUOTE)

Goodness no, winton! Those are the kinds of high living things that a newfangled bevel up plane user would add to their knife. We BD users like our knives plain and hard to use :)

[george wilson]

I missed out on one of those Kabar knives that I described to you,David. I bid $20.00. It went for $20.50. I already have one but this one was in mint condition. Not that I needed another!!

[David Weaver]

Which pattern was the knife george, a boy's knife or something?

I like the old kabar stockman. Not much of anything good goes cheap on ebay, but I'd say a kabar stockman for $20 + shipping, that just needs a little cleaning, is pretty good for cheap. It certainly seems to be as good as any of the other knives I've gotten.

[William Adams]

My father always carried a stockman-pattern Uncle Henry, which he bought as a replacement for a knife he'd had as a boy (he'd found it, but later lost it) --- I've considered carrying it, but can't bear the thought of losing it, so it stays on my nightstand in its box w/ the price sticker (I think I have the original receipt somewhere) from Western Auto.

I've been trying to keep an eye out for a N.O.S. Made-in-the-U.S. model, but no luck.

[David Weaver]

William, does it have a model # on it? The (schrade) uncle henry I got was something like $27 with shipping, it's really a very nice knife. There are a bunch on ebay and they don't seem to get the attention that the current makers' knives do. If the one I received is any indication of the general quality, it's as good as any of the other knives I have (that being said, I haven't sharpened it yet or found what it holds for an edge), but I'm sure it will be fine if it's remotely similar to the little keychain knife i have.

[Tony Zaffuto]

David,

If you decide to order anything from "Smokey Mountain Knife Works", keep in mind, this is the company that owns the names and imports many of the Chinese knives showing up on Ebay. Also, the shipping costs seem a bit high for a single knife and shipping could be a bit quicker. I bought two knives from them, the Rough Rider barlow and a Rough Rider stockman. I have no idea where the Stockman now is, but the barlow is used regularly, and as I posted earlier, I'm amazed at edge retention.

[David Weaver]

Tony - there looks to be several resellers from WV, as well as the seller "Ecop" on ebay (who i got one of the other knives from, can't remember which - might've been the boker). I went through them because they have cheap shipping....since I don't need another stockman pattern and will eventually probably cap all of this off with a camillus 67 in memory of my dad's dad, I got a RR193 pattern knife. I don't know which 440 the stainless is, but even 440A can be made into something useful if done right.

I can't see how they can make a jigged bone stainless knife with brass caps on the end for what is effectively $9-10 retail, but I guess that's the magic of china!

[Winton Applegate]

I had a Western three blade pen knife that I really liked. Real blades that rust and everything.
I think it was the No. 445 here (http://www.google.com/search?q=western+No.+445+pocket+knife&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=p3dDU77sMuiOyAGTnoBg&ved=0CG4QsAQ&biw=1208&bih=571).
I lost it near our local Woodcraft store. Some one must have picked it up before I discovered it was missing. They got a good one. Must have fell out of my pocket getting out of the MG. Really low to the ground. Can't go over speed bumps without getting out of the car and pushing the car over them then get back in.

Ha, ha.
MG's name is Maxwell. I call him Maxi.
Legs are practically parallel to the ground when driving so is easy for stuff in pockets to ship out.

I bought the knife at a little Mom and Pop hardware store called Shock's Hardware. They retired and closed it in the mid nineties. I really liked the Shocks and miss them.

Here is a good one for you :

They were on vacation in Canada
They were in their seventies.
Driving on slick roads.
Distracted for an instant poring some coffee.
Hit some black ice and slid off the road.
Flipped their van END OVER END in the snow.
Had it pulled out.
Finished their vacation.

They don't make people like that any more.

Mr. Shock always reminded me of a mix between a bull dog and an army tank. Not so tall but you ain't gonna get past him if he doesn't want you to.

Mrs. Shock bright and sharp as a tack.

[William Adams]

My father's knife doesn't have a model number, but that looks to be the right one.

He also had a larger one (I did too), but both of those were lost.

[David Weaver]

Last two:

The Uncle Henry stockman (great), and a surprise good knife. The "boker plus", a full sized stockman made entirely in china with 440c steel.

The surprise is the boker "plus" is very accurately made, the spey blade is a little funny shape, but that's not one you'd use in the shop. It has half stops (some of you will know what I'm talking about), very definite, and all of the blades are very snappy and have a feel a lot like the case, but a little stronger.

Great stockman knife for $13 delivered, and surprisingly, much better feel than the german stockman. Actually, at any price, I like it better than the german stockman.

No clue if it's just this knife that's this good (since it's made in china), but it's really really good. No wobble side to side either.

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