LV BU Smoother or LN #4 bronze

[Drew Sanderson]

Looking to get my first smoother.

Which would you choose? The Lee Valley bevel up smoother, or the LN #4 in bronze?

Should I consider something else?

I currently only use domestic hardwood.

[Chris Griggs]

Of those two planes, I would personally choose the LN because I prefer No. 4 sized planes (the BUS equates to a 4 1/2), and because for most things I prefer BD bailey pattern planes...specifically I like using planes that have chip breaker/cap iron, but I also generally (though not always) like the feel of BD planes better.

Since you mentioned you really just work domestic hardwoods, I think that make a Baily pattern plane that much more appropriate.

Your going to get a lot of conflicting answers here...so much is just personal preference.

As afar as considering something else...I'm hesitant to comment becasue its just going to confuse thing but if I were going to get a BU plane as primary smoother I'd go with the LV "Low angle smoother", but again only becasue I like No. 4 sized smoothers. If you have a chance to go to an LN show I would also try the iron 4 in addition to the bronze. The iron has a nice weight to it still without being too heavy, but gives you more feedback than the bronze..just depend on what you like, you might like the more dampened slightly more solid feel of the bronze better or you might like the slightly livelier iron better, the difference is somewhat subtle but they are both worth trying if you can...though I'm sure you'd be happy with either.

[Sean Hughto]

I have vanilla and chocolate ice cream in my freezer. Which would you choose? Should I consider something else, like strawberry maybe?

I'm kidding, but trying to make a point. This survey will not really answer what YOU should choose because this a matter of personal preference.

I grew up in Syracuse, so maybe we have similar CNY sensibilities - I like my LN4. ;-)

[bob blakeborough]

I have a smaller #3 LN Bronze, vintage Bailey #4, and the Veritas BUS. Both are excellent quality tools and realistically are completely capable of achieving the same results, but I have found that over the last couple years, I always reach for the BUS. I just find it simple and effective and I have to fiddle with it less. I also like the lower center of gravity. I just feels a bit better in my hands. Does that make it better? No, not at all... Just better for me.

Try and find a way to handle both and see what feels better for you. There is no right or wrong answer...

[Anthony Moumar]

I prefer a BD smoother so I'd go for the LN. If possible I'd recommend trying both planes. The grips are different on the LN and Veritas planes so you might prefer one brand over the other for that reason.

You might also want to consider the Veritas No. 4 as well. I personally like the Norris style ajustments. It's quite a bit cheaper than the LN as well.

[Doug Bowman]

One thing no one has brought up - the LV BUS is pretty much a 1 trick pony, the lack of a machined side means it is not capable of shooting. I know they are smoothers, but if I only have a little shooting to do and my Bailey 4 is on the bench I have used it to shoot before. And I also Acknowledge that I have not used either plane but would be happy to own either and still lust after a LV BUS.

[Chris Griggs]

I like your tag line Doug...it feed my ego-mania!

[Pat Barry]

I sure hope the correct answer is the LV BUS because that's what I'm buying. :)

[Brian Loran]

No brainer for me, LN #4. Only question is bronze or iron. I may be one of the few that does not like the added heft of bronze...

[Jim Koepke]

The best way to decide is to get both of these planes in your hands and give them a try.

If they are equals to the task, the only important consideration is which one best fits your hands.

jtk

[Drew Sanderson]

I was planning on getting them both in my hands this weekend at a show but those plans have fallen through.

[Curt Putnam]

It's not an OR question. I have and like both although the LV BUS fits my hand far better. If you are new to hand planes then you will find the BU planes easier to use, hone and get going again.

[lowell holmes]

Actually, you may be fickle like I am.

I have the LV BU smoother and I have a 604 Bedrock with the LV A2 iron and LV breaker. The one I pick up to use varies by the mood I'm in at the time.

I tend to use the BU smoother on face grain and the 640 on edges.

I recommend both. As Jim would tell you, You can not have too many hand planes. :)

OBTW, I sold a LN 4 1/2 to buy the BU smoother. I'm sure bricks will fly with that admission.

[John P Lewis]

Think about the LV #4 with the PM blade. I've had one for over a year and it is one of my two favorite planes - the other being the LN 102. I have lots of old Stanley and Millers Falls planes. You can't go wrong with a good example of those two planes. It sounds like no matter what you buy, you'll end up with something you'll like and use.

A

[paul cottingham]

I have a BUS and a no4 smoother. I use the BUS far more. But I'm not 100% sure that means a damn thing. I am beginning to use the no.4 more and more, now that I have come to understand chip-breaker placement better.
Frankly, you can't go wrong either way, IMHO.

[paul cottingham]

It's not an OR question. I have and like both although the LV BUS fits my hand far better. If you are new to hand planes then you will find the BU planes easier to use, hone and get going again.

+1 and a very good point.

[Prashun Patel]

You've selected the two most popular, and neither is wrong.

But neither is right either.

You need to try them to determine your truth.

[lowell holmes]

Well,

That's easy. Get them both.:)

[Derek Cohen]

Looking to get my first smoother.

Which would you choose? The Lee Valley bevel up smoother, or the LN #4 in bronze?

Should I consider something else?

I currently only use domestic hardwood.

Hi Drew

The LV BU smoother that is the equivalent size as the LN #4 is the LA Smoother, which is based on the Stanley #164. LN make a version as well. Others here have mentioned the BUS, however that is a larger smoother, more akin to a #4 1/2. I wonder how many here have actually used these planes side-by-side?

First comment is that you are looking at the mid size range. Have you determine whether you want the small (#3), middle (#4), or large (#4 1/2) size?

Second, this could become a shoot out between BU and BD planes, or it could be a choice between the #4 and the LAS. If the latter, the LAS is by far the most flexible plane. It performs as a superb smoother (mine is set up with a high angle bevel and takes on the most interlocked grain), used with a low angle blade it is excellent on a shooting board, and it will definitely outperform ANY #4 on end grain. The low centre of effort makes it light and nimble in use.

I cannot compare it directly to a bronze LN #4 as I do not have one, but I do have a bronze #3 and a Stanley #604. What I prefer about these BD planes is that sharpening the blade can be done freehand on a hollow grind. My only beef with a BU plane is that it needs a honing guide to get the secondary angle correct (as this determines the cutting angle). Honing a BD blade is quicker. Ignore this comment if you use a guide for all your sharpening anyway. Balancing this comment, replacing the blade in a BU is really simple, while there is a lot more to do with the BD blade. It can get quite fiddly, especially if you are setting the chipbreaker.

The bottom line is which is one likely to pick up when planing the last shaving on a board with figured, interlocked grain? No question, I go for the BU plane every time. Using the chipbreaker I can get as good a results on figured wood. However the BU plane is just more reliable. It is predictably reliable. There is no need to take a test swipe first. Sharpen the blade, and it will do the job. Both planes can be adjusted on the fly, by the way, although this is easier with the BD.

The LAS seems to be the "forgotten smoother" in the LV line up. Indeed, I prefer picking up a Small BUS or a LN #3 because I find the smaller size even more nimble. It remains a plane that should be mentioned more often.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tim Janssen]

There is quite an extensive right-up of the BUS and comparison with other planes here
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Smooth er.html
Regards,

Tim

[Pat Barry]

Hi Drew

The LV BU smoother that is the equivalent size as the LN #4 is the LA Smoother, which is based on the Stanley #164. LN make a version as well. Others here have mentioned the BUS, however that is a larger smoother, more akin to a #4 1/2. I wonder how many here have actually used these planes side-by-side?

First comment is that you are looking at the mid size range. Have you determine whether you want the small (#3), middle (#4), or large (#4 1/2) size?

Second, this could become a shoot out between BU and BD planes, or it could be a choice between the #4 and the LAS. If the latter, the LAS is by far the most flexible plane. It performs as a superb smoother (mine is set up with a high angle bevel and takes on the most interlocked grain), used with a low angle blade it is excellent on a shooting board, and it will definitely outperform ANY #4 on end grain. The low centre of effort makes it light and nimble in use.

I cannot compare it directly to a bronze LN #4 as I do not have one, but I do have a bronze #3 and a Stanley #604. What I prefer about these BD planes is that sharpening the blade can be done freehand on a hollow grind. My only beef with a BU plane is that it needs a honing guide to get the secondary angle correct (as this determines the cutting angle). Honing a BD blade is quicker. Ignore this comment if you use a guide for all your sharpening anyway. Balancing this comment, replacing the blade in a BU is really simple, while there is a lot more to do with the BD blade. It can get quite fiddly, especially if you are setting the chipbreaker.

The bottom line is which is one likely to pick up when planing the last shaving on a board with figured, interlocked grain? No question, I go for the BU plane every time. Using the chipbreaker I can get as good a results on figured wood. However the BU plane is just more reliable. It is predictably reliable. There is no need to take a test swipe first. Sharpen the blade, and it will do the job. Both planes can be adjusted on the fly, by the way, although this is easier with the BD.

The LAS seems to be the "forgotten smoother" in the LV line up. Indeed, I prefer picking up a Small BUS or a LN #3 because I find the smaller size even more nimble. It remains a plane that should be mentioned more often.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Hi Derek, do you still feel the same way about the LV BUS as you did back in January 2006. I just ordered this and am looking forward to receiving it soon. Curious if you still find yourself reaching for that plane often.

[Shawn Pixley]

As others have said, only you can make that call. I have a Stanley#3, type 11 that is my go to for smaller work. I have a pair of LN 4-1/2 with standard and high angle frogs for larger work. I like the LN handle a bit more. Both the LN and LV are fine instruments.

[Jim R Edwards]

I own a LVBUS, LN 4 1/2, and a flat side 604 bedrock. The LVBUS is my favorite but I am also a bevel up fan. The LN is a beautiful plane and performs flawlessly. You can't go wrong with either plane.

[Winton Applegate]

I have both

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/7cb7bbc6-8455-4a1d-87e5-15ad5d491cc3_zps20b76731.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/7cb7bbc6-8455-4a1d-87e5-15ad5d491cc3_zps20b76731.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Sothinandgossimer_zps0bad077a.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Sothinandgossimer_zps0bad077a.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/MakesMeSmileeverytimeIuseit_zps3272df5a.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/MakesMeSmileeverytimeIuseit_zps3272df5a.jpg.html)

Make careful note of which plane is geeeet-ner done and which one is posing for picture taking.

The bronze LN is a great plane . . . but . . .
if you are going to use it on large surfaces and or for long periods consider the iron LN. The bronze is pretty but takes more waxing more often because the bronze has more drag. I see no reason for more weight (the bronze is slightly heavier ) if you like weight lifting you can always glue some fishing sinkers to your iron one.
:)

I say you eventually need both. The bronze one to look at and the LV BU to do the work.

:cool: However there are two kinds of plane users. The ones that like the finicky old style stuff with the extra parts to play with and "master" (bevel down) and then there is the lean, the mean, the no nonsense MODERN wood worker (bevel up).

So I recommend a long retreat, perhaps at a Zen Center to search your soul, or sole if you prefer, and discover which kind'a wood chuck you are.

Oh yah . . .
once you decide

:) have lots of chocolate cake on hand to fuel the plane.
Remember
that's essential

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2531_zpsf5eb1d44.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2531_zpsf5eb1d44.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Hasmanydustisolatingcompounds_zps1224a9c1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Hasmanydustisolatingcompounds_zps1224a9c1.jpg.html )

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek, do you still feel the same way about the LV BUS as you did back in January 2006. I just ordered this and am looking forward to receiving it soon. Curious if you still find yourself reaching for that plane often.

Hi Pat

I would state without hesitation that the BUS is one of the finest performing smoothers I have used. It runs second only to a Marcou BU smoother I have. Both are "large" smoothers and generally only come off the shelf when I am working either large panels or am dealing with extra difficult grain. I prefer smaller, lighter smoothers. I love the performance of the large, heavy planes, but find the smaller ones more pleasurable and less fatiguing to use.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

First let me say, I don't own new planes, other then one small blockplane, so you should take my opinion with a huge grain of salt. That said, there is an advantage to the bevel down plane not yet mentioned. If you are working with difficult types of wood, prone to tear out, you can can choose a higher cutting angle or a chipbreaker set close to the edge. Both are effective to prevent tear out. Of course you want to use the lowest possible cutting angle or the chipbreaker as far as way as possible, without introducing tearout. Using too much "anti tearout effect" only leads to more resistance pushing the plane, faster wear of the edge and not the nicest surface. So this means a bit of experimenting on the piece of wood that troubles you. Adjusting the "anti tearout effect" of a chipbreaker is very easy, you only need a screwdriver. Adjusting the cutting angle needs an arsenal of blades with different angles or grinding and honing different angles on your blade.

[Derek Cohen]

Using too much "anti tearout effect" only leads to more resistance pushing the plane ....

Hi Kees

This is one of non-events. If you are using a high angle plane, be it BU or BD, then it is for the purpose of avoiding tearout. In such cases you are going to be taking thinner shavings. With a plane that is 2 3/8" wide, such as a Stanley/LN #4 1/2, then the resistance is going to be noticeable. However on a smaller plane, such as a #3 or #4, which is 2" wide, the differences are less. When you switch to a BU plane with a high cutting angle, the apparent resistance is even less owing to the low centre of effort.


... faster wear of the edge ...

Possibly. I think so from experience, however I do not know of any tests done, and the wood I use is so abrasive that nothing lasts very long. One of the advantages for my kind of wood (although, by extension, this must apply to others as well), are the modern steels, such as A2 and PM-V11, which resist this type of abrasive wear better. Still, when it comes to a smoother, one is not doing tens of metres of planing. As soon as the edge begins to dull it needs to be sharpened, and especially so when working with interlocked grain.


... and not the nicest surface.

That is just nonsense. I will agree that a lower angle plane produces a noticeably cleaner cut on end grain (which is one of the arguments for a LA BU plane here) and this is evident on face grain as well (45 degrees versus 60 degrees), however the differences are negligible (not apparent unless you are specifically looking for it, and I would say that blade sharpness plays a part here as well), and all differences disappear once a finish is added. There was an article in FWW mag a few years back that demonstrated that differences in sanded and planed boards were impossible to pick once a finish (oil was also used) was applied.

Choose a plane for the predictability of controlling tear out, ease of set up, and comfort/control in use, .

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Drew Sanderson]

I am definitely in the get it done camp at this point in my life. My shop time is limited, and I need to get the work done. Most projects at this point come from the "honey do list". I'm new to this whole idea of hand tools, but you all sound quite similar to the guys who have somehow ended up with 40 routers. :)

[Kees Heiden]

Well, according to messr. Walker, Goodchild and Gorman, a 62,5 degree cutting angle means a 50% increase in the horizontal pushing force: http://www.amgron.clara.net/sciencereport16.html. The vertical force is even worse for high cutting angles. A 2 thou shaving with a 45 degree plane has a nice negative vertical force, which means that the blade is pulled into the wood. At 52,5 that is a lot less, and at 62,5 it is non existent.That means that you have to push the plane harder down in order to keep cutting. More pushing down means more resistance, which means even more horizontal pushing force.

And however you look at it, when you can extend edge life with an intelligent choice of cutting angle, then that is a good thing. No need to do anymore sharpening then neccessary.

In domestic European en North American woods you can do an awfull lot smoothing with a 45 degree plane. And when you hit a patch of undulating stuff, or you found a nice piece of curly material, then it is very nice to be able to adjust your plane to deal with it. It is this adjustability which is such a nice feature of the double iron plane. There must be a good reason why the double iron plane took over the market after it was invented. For example all the Noris and Spierse infill planes came with 45 to 47,5 degree bedding angle AND a chipbreaker. It just doesn't make sense to push harder then neccessary.

I do agree with you about the brilliance of the surface. I still have my doubts though about the coe effect. As long as you don't present some proof, it is just a hypothese.

[Kees Heiden]

I am definitely in the get it done camp at this point in my life. My shop time is limited, and I need to get the work done. Most projects at this point come from the "honey do list". I'm new to this whole idea of hand tools, but you all sound quite similar to the guys who have somehow ended up with 40 routers. :)

Huh, I've only got 4 smoothers! ;)

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Kees

The problem with statistics is that they make it sound as though one were climbing over mountains when, in reality, the amount of extra effort is negligible. Add a touch of candle wax to the sole of a 55 degree bronze LN #4 1/2, and it slides along the board with little force required. Wax is a great leveller.

I am not trying to convince anyone to purchase a particular plane type, model or manufacturer - just trying to include some objectivity into the subject.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Hasmanydustisolatingcompounds_zps1224a9c1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Hasmanydustisolatingcompounds_zps1224a9c1.jpg.html )

Nice plate, Mate.

[Jim Matthews]

If you already have traditional planes, slightly larger and slightly smaller
then the bevel orientation can help you out in a jam.

I use wooden body planes, with thick irons and a steep bed angle.
When I get stuck, a Bevel Up jack plane comes to the rescue.

I think a Bevel Up smoother is nice, but a larger Jack plane will have broader utility.
If you can master multiple grind angles, it can be really flexible.

I followed Christian Becksvoort's lead on this, and it has proven useful - when nothing else works.

I scrub with my Jack plane, level with my BU Jack and smooth with a small plane made by Steve Voigt.
I shoot edges with my Jack plane, and shoot miters with the BU Jack.

If the board has undulating grain along the edge, or end grain the BU Jack really shines.

I fear a BU smoother is too small to make a meaningful addition to the kit you own, already.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=33799

[Kees Heiden]

Hi Kees

The problem with statistics is that they make it sound as though one were climbing over mountains when, in reality, the amount of extra effort is negligible. Add a touch of candle wax to the sole of a 55 degree bronze LN #4 1/2, and it slides along the board with little force required. Wax is a great leveller.

I am not trying to convince anyone to purchase a particular plane type, model or manufacturer - just trying to include some objectivity into the subject.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Oh I can certainly feel a real difference when I put a 15 degree back bevel on my wooden smoother. Subjective, I know, but on longer sessions it is quite evident. And the wooden sole is very smooth from itself, doesn't need wax.

On domestic woods a 45 degree plane is the standard. High angles is specialty stuff. And with the capiron you can get out of a lot of planing problems when the need arises.

But if you want to buy something else, feel free and don't let me hinder you! :)

[Tom M King]

I am definitely in the get it done camp at this point in my life. My shop time is limited, and I need to get the work done. Most projects at this point come from the "honey do list". I'm new to this whole idea of hand tools, but you all sound quite similar to the guys who have somehow ended up with 40 routers. :)

Even I don't have 40 routers. I only have 20some.

[Derek Cohen]

Oh I can certainly feel a real difference when I put a 15 degree back bevel on my wooden smoother. Subjective, I know, but on longer sessions it is quite evident. And the wooden sole is very smooth from itself, doesn't need wax.

On domestic woods a 45 degree plane is the standard. High angles is specialty stuff. And with the capiron you can get out of a lot of planing problems when the need arises.

But if you want to buy something else, feel free and don't let me hinder you! :)

Oh Kees, you are so funny :)

You don't have a BU plane. You have not compared similar BU and BD planes alongside one another. You have not tried wax on a sole. But you make definitive statements. I wish I was that sure of everything. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I have a bronze LN #4 with a 55 degree frog. It works very nicely for smoothing and I can relax the chip breaker and mouth settings for most North American hardwoods to no ill effect. I also have the ability to tighten those settings for tough grain.

I still do breakout the scraper on occasion but the occasions are far fewer.

[Kees Heiden]

You should move to Europe Derek, and start to enjoy all the kinds of wood that can be planed with a standard 45 degree Bailey pattern plane, or a wooden coffin! When I was building my kitchen I didn't know yet about chipbreakers or bevel ups or back bevels and all that and planes all that maple with just a sharp blade set at 45 degrees. A few troublesome panels needed a card scraper, the rest was plain sailing. And that was a lot of wood. The same goes for wallnut, cherry, oak, pine etc etc. With carefull stock selection and watching the grain direction, you could do a lifetime of woodworking without needing a high angle plane or a chipbreaker. It just doesn't make sense to raise the angle when you don't need it.

The nice thing about the Bailey planes is the easy adjustment of the chipbreaker to instantly give you all the "anti tearout effect" that you need. That was in fact all I wanted to say in this thread. The BU's could be the cats pyamas, but I really have no idea about that.

[Drew Sanderson]

Interesting to me how the spread of the LN lead in the poll is shrinking with time.