"I am a woodshop"

[Scott T Smith]

Great video! I lament the loss of some of the technical training in our schools.

http://profoundlydisconnected.com/i-am-a-wood-shop/

[Brian Elfert]

What trade does wood shop prepare one for? I took wood shop in high school in the late 80s and it was my favorite class, but I have no idea what trade I could take on by knowing how to use a table saw, band saw, jointer, radial arm saw, etc. Even small cabinet shops seem to have a lot of automation.

Now, if the students at that high school are learning how to build a house then the class would help them learn a trade. We certainly didn't build any houses at my school.

[paul cottingham]

It gets kids working with their hands, and seeing that working with their hands may be a viable work path. I don't see it being any more irrelevant than anything else kids learn in school.

[Scott T Smith]

What trade does wood shop prepare one for? I took wood shop in high school in the late 80s and it was my favorite class, but I have no idea what trade I could take on by knowing how to use a table saw, band saw, jointer, radial arm saw, etc. Even small cabinet shops seem to have a lot of automation.

Now, if the students at that high school are learning how to build a house then the class would help them learn a trade. We certainly didn't build any houses at my school.

The shop class that I took in grade school back in the early 70's taught me not only woodworking, but also fundamentals of electricity. It helped me to secure my first paid job at age 11 wiring houses for a church member during the summer. Learning how to use tools, how to take a project from idea to completion, how to search for answers to joinery challenges also helped to create and nurture a sense of independence, confidence and a love of working with all types of tools that has benefited me throughout my life.

Shop class is not just about woodworking - it's about teaching young adults the basics involved with living on your own and the satisfaction resulting from being less dependent upon others. It also is about opening one's eyes to the wonders of how things work in our world. And finally, it is about opening your eyes to what your own true potential is, instead of just learning about what others have done.

[Dave Ray]

I think wood shop is important in that it teaches kids to think, to plan. Where do I start, what do I do next? What tool do I use, what kind of wood and why? It teaches pride in accomplishment. Look I did that, I built this. It teaches appreciation, how could they do that without power tools. It leads to more advanced projects, which in itself refers them to books, libraries, museums and best of all sites like SMC for inspiration

[glenn bradley]

That was great. I always enjoy this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC0JPs-rcF0

[Brian Ashton]

What trade does wood shop prepare one for? I took wood shop in high school in the late 80s and it was my favorite class, but I have no idea what trade I could take on by knowing how to use a table saw, band saw, jointer, radial arm saw, etc. Even small cabinet shops seem to have a lot of automation.

Now, if the students at that high school are learning how to build a house then the class would help them learn a trade. We certainly didn't build any houses at my school.


I have honestly no idea how you could say that. Directly you would have basic skills for furniture making (by furniture I don't mean Ikea™ crap), cabinet making (quality cabinetry has a lot of solid wood included), joinery (finishing carpentry, many high end houses incorporate solid wood joinery). Hand tool skills are transferable also to such endeavours as boat building.

There are far more small shops that get by using the basics such as a tablesaw, planer, jointer bandsaw and lathe than have invested in overhead routers and such, especially furniture making.

[Brian W Smith]

What does it prepare you for?

Tongue fully in cheek;I reckon,advanced math(algebra,calc,trig),metrology....with a heaping of geometry,spooned on top of mechanical aptitude.....don't really prepare much anymore?

[Fred Perreault]

What does it prepare you for..... hmmmmm

Well, I suppose that Woodshop and Mechanical Arts (taught at many schools) might be to students and educated adults what reading, writing and arithmetic would be to these same soon-to-be members of society. "Shop" classes may not be relevant the same way they were 30, 50 or 80 years ago, but I believe that they offer the student an opportunity for a well rounded education and to utilize what they are being taught in other classes. Should we teach math only to students that will become nuclear physicists, or english composition to future writers of fiction novels? How many 20-30-40- somethings do you know that can't change a flat tire, or tighten a loose doorknob or cabinet door hinge, or repair the light socket in a floor lamp (or a lightbulb)? We do have a lot of technology related classes in schools, but much of what is out there is electromechanical. In fact, maybe there should be mandatory "laboratories" in school where they teach the mechanical arts and wood shop. Keep in mind that maritime schools still teach about wind power.... how archaic" :-) :-)

[Brett Luna]

In my junior high shop class, we built the corner of a house from foundation to roof. We wired it. We snipped, rolled, and bent the duct work. We hung a window. We laid brick. I didn't buy my first home until I was 43 and in all the DIY I've done since, I've relied on the foundation those lessons laid down. They didn't lead me to a trade but the lessons stuck all the same. I also value the lessons I learned using power and hand tools. One of my favorite memories is getting a better score on a simple piece of stock cut and smoothed with hand tools than with a previous piece made using power tools.

Besides, it's not always what you learn. It's what you learn to love.

[Jim Rimmer]

What trade does wood shop prepare one for? I took wood shop in high school in the late 80s and it was my favorite class, but I have no idea what trade I could take on by knowing how to use a table saw, band saw, jointer, radial arm saw, etc. .
Really?? You've never had to measure anything? You don't deal with angles? You've never had to convert and add fractions? Have you not had to look at a complex process or project and try to determine the component parts of that process or project and how to break it down and complete those sub-parts and then pull it all together for a final product? I don't just mean a house or coffee table - it could be a computer program, a jet engine, a bridge or anything. Learning woodworking involves planning, math, measurement, communication skills, ordering of materials, sequential processing and many other skills that transfer to other things in life. Maybe you won't grow up to be a master cabinet maker but you will learn some skills that transfer to just about any career path.

I think and hope you made the above statement tongue-in-cheek to spark conversation.

[Fred Perreault]

..... and what about home ownership, the goal of many industrious Americans. Can we imagine paying an outsider for all of the maintenance and repairs that a home might need in 5-10-20-30 years of ownership when a little DIY knowledge could keep the costs down, the pride gleaming, and the sense of satisfaction on the rise? Now, of course, there is a learning curve, and I am sure that we all have burned a few woodworking failures, and had to call in a professional to rescue a DIY mission once in a while. In our local high school, not a tech school, (1,000 students 9-12) they have metal shop and wood shop. In wood shop they have built skiffs, canoes, guitars, and an assortment of small and medium size projects. I have spent time over to the side with those interested in turning, helping them on the lathes. And there are 20% young women in the classes, showing less ego and more patience and greater attention than the young men. Long live the trades.

....failure breeds success....

[Mike Lassiter]

Really?? You've never had to measure anything? You don't deal with angles? You've never had to convert and add fractions? Have you not had to look at a complex process or project and try to determine the component parts of that process or project and how to break it down and complete those sub-parts and then pull it all together for a final product? I don't just mean a house or coffee table - it could be a computer program, a jet engine, a bridge or anything. Learning woodworking involves planning, math, measurement, communication skills, ordering of materials, sequential processing and many other skills that transfer to other things in life. Maybe you won't grow up to be a master cabinet maker but you will learn some skills that transfer to just about any career path.

I think and hope you made the above statement tongue-in-cheek to spark conversation.

I think some people have a natural desire to want to know how things work, how to do things, how to make things. I took "shop" and it fed that desire to know and learn more. I lived at a boy's home about 5 years. I built a 8 foot long eating table in shop for the new cottage for us to have our meals on. I walked a class mate to the doctor's office after he cut the tip of his finger on a table saw. That taught me to pay attention, tools don't care what they cut. The environment offered us a place to work with our hands and tools that we had no access to otherwise - like that monster 220 3 phase planner or shaping machine so we could experience and learn. Some did learn, some took shop to fill time and get out of other classes. I personally took a lot away from the class, that showed me I could do things myself. It is likely how some decided to work in trades like carpentry, or cabinet making after getting some time to "play" with the shop equipment. Just as we need to have some understanding of math, reading, and so forth; I think boys need some exposure to such things to give them a hands on experience that they can do things they have never done. I've been blessed with building homes, wiring, plumbing, masonry, roofing, and other things that have saved me ten's of thousands of dollars over the years. That I had the childhood learning experiences I did gave me the confidence to try new things sometime because I couldn't afford to pay someone else, other times because I wanted to do it. Every task undertook was a step toward knowing more and being confident enough to try more. I continue still doing new things and learning about the unknown to me. The things I have undertook in my life have saved me much money and suffering.

What would it cost to have your water heater replaced on Thanksgiving Day? I had to replace mine last year because after 17 years it started to leaking. No water cut off valve to it, had to turn off water at the well, so the family is all coming to our house for the Thanksgiving meal, but we have no water! Trip to Home Depot the night before for a new water heater, and a little time on my part and our family meal and day was saved.

I know I am partly the person I am thanks to Mr. Halley - my shop teacher, and to the many others that have couched and helped me learn by doing.

[Mark Bolton]

What trade does wood shop prepare one for?

Honestly. You're not serious are you?

[David Weaver]

In my high school, it prepared a lot of the student athletes to be academically eligible whereas they wouldn't have been in more academic classes.

Our shop class and industrial arts classes were a place for teachers who didn't want to do much, or a place to park a football coach so they would stick around. We had two years of required industrial arts, I don't remember any of them. I have no clue if our school shops are still open, many of those around here have been sold.

In terms of cabinet making places around here, I worked in a very large corporate factory in the 1990s and the radial arm and bandsaw were used only to cut cabinet corner braces, and only one person out of 500 ever used them to do that. The rest of the stuff in the factory was automated. A stack of panels went into some CNC machine the size of a house and out of the other end came panels (sides, backs, bottoms and tops) cut, literally in order of the order tags for cabinets. That was nearly 20 years ago now.

The only people in the factory who did something that resembled shop were the maintenance men, but most of the time the maintenance men changed bits on machines, etc. If any of the larger equipment went down, it required outside expertise to get it back online.

If I wanted to learn to do something similar to wood shop, I'd apprentice with someone who has a business - which really means more like offering to be minimum wage help if they have enough work to do that, and see if they'd take you on. The prospect of what is now terminally a $15 an hour job with the promise of buying a business (where you would then end up above $15 an hour) as someone retires at *very great risk* and on an after tax basis doesn't seem very attractive.

[Brian Elfert]

Honestly. You're not serious are you?

Yes, I'm serious. How many openings are there for people to work in an old fashioned wood shop and make things on table saws, jointers, planers, and the like? There is a place near where I live where they make custom things from wood, but a lot of cutting is done on their CNC router. I believe they will make cabinets, but they don't make cabinet doors. They just order them from a place that specializes in cabinet doors. I had them cut some plywood for me once as I needed higher precision than I thought I could achieve with my tools.

I don't believe that taking wood shop would help me be a carpenter or anything like that. We didn't learn how to build houses. I loved wood shop, but we never built any big projects as a class like a grandfather clock or some other big project.

[Brian Elfert]

Wood shop was considered to be a really easy class to get a good grade. I took wood shop in 12th grade and a couple of guys that failed to graduate the previous spring took the class to get easy credits so they could graduate. The teacher we had was great and basically taught just drafting and shop class. I don't remember him teaching any other classes.

[Mark Bolton]

In my high school, it prepared a lot of the student athletes to be academically eligible whereas they wouldn't have been in more academic classes.

Our shop class and industrial arts classes were a place for teachers who didn't want to do much, or a place to park a football coach so they would stick around. We had two years of required industrial arts, I don't remember any of them. I have no clue if our school shops are still open, many of those around here have been sold.

In terms of cabinet making places around here, I worked in a very large corporate factory in the 1990s and the radial arm and bandsaw were used only to cut cabinet corner braces, and only one person out of 500 ever used them to do that. The rest of the stuff in the factory was automated. A stack of panels went into some CNC machine the size of a house and out of the other end came panels (sides, backs, bottoms and tops) cut, literally in order of the order tags for cabinets. That was nearly 20 years ago now.

The only people in the factory who did something that resembled shop were the maintenance men, but most of the time the maintenance men changed bits on machines, etc. If any of the larger equipment went down, it required outside expertise to get it back online.

If I wanted to learn to do something similar to wood shop, I'd apprentice with someone who has a business - which really means more like offering to be minimum wage help if they have enough work to do that, and see if they'd take you on. The prospect of what is now terminally a $15 an hour job with the promise of buying a business (where you would then end up above $15 an hour) as someone retires at *very great risk* and on an after tax basis doesn't seem very attractive.

I guess I look at the whole thing a bit differently. When I was in elementary/middle we had the same system, required classes. For half the year you were in woodshop, the other half you were in metal shop. In woodshop you made the traditional lamps, corner shelves, and the like, all in pine, slathered with Minwax Jacobean stain and a coat of poly. In metal shop you learned how to use a finger break, solder sheetmetal joints, and so on, and made things like candle holders, oil cans, and so on. Being mandatory, you had the academics as well as the bookworms all in the same class learning to work with their hands, work from a plan, meet a deadline, and all the other rudimentary things that go along with "labor" and life. I went on to a vocational school for high school rather than my local high school.

I guess where I look at it differently is that for most of my adult life I have been in contact with what I call "the worker bee" society daily. The people who work in the plants, build houses, lay brick, dig dirt, build and repair machinery, and so on. And the simple fact of the matter is, those industrial arts classes were a foundation for that work for many of us. I see it on a daily basis when hiring kids out of high school who have never ever had that foundation and many come from families where you dont fix your lawnmower when it breaks down. You dont do a little research and dig into your washing machine to change a 12 dollar belt as opposed to paying a repair man 150 bucks to come out and do it for you.

Sure, there are a lot of industrial jobs out there now where your just a floor worker but there are just as many where your not and that foundation still applies. Its no different than the guy with a degree in physical education landing a job at an insurance company simply because he has a degree. The Phys. Ed degree serves virtually no purpose in his proposed position other than to say he persevered, self motivated, got is butt out of bed on his own, and so on, and completed the necessary requirements to get his degree. It simply shows he applied himself and nothing more. Yet it happens all the time. A person in the same department, non-degree'd, who can do the job in their sleep, will get overlooked because the employer has a degree as one of the criteria for the job. Its not a degree in "insurance", its just a degree. I think part of that is the system wanting to support the system because often times the non-degree'd individual may do the task better but thats neither here nor there. But I think the same applies to industrial arts programs. There is a large component of society, and the workforce, that is simply being left behind at the moment and general convention is that these are the "dumb" kids (not saying anyone here has said that).

What gets me about statements like Brian's (and I dont mean this about him personally) is how nauseating it is to see and hear how disconnected so many today are to the grease and gears and bearings of our economy. Whether you like it or not, there is still a guy dawning a hazmat suit in your community and climbing down into a filter tank in your waste water facility and manually scraping tampons and condoms and lord knows what else off the screens. I mean that "is" Mike Rowe's dirty jobs.

Its no different than Scott's previous hiring post. People (not you David) are so far out of touch with what you "can" actually live on with regards to income that they honestly convince themselves its no longer possible. One may not want to, but it can be done. I personally feel the whole conversation dovetails together.

Im not that old, but I felt like during the boom the people who for years were considered the "common folk", while they didnt make a lot more, got a bit of a break so to speak. Cash was flowing, people were happy to have work done, maybe the mechanic got beatup a little less for his 65/hr when the $300/hr lawyer came in to pick up his BMW. But as the economy tanked, we are back sliding into the old mindset.

I remember when I made the decision to go to vocational school rather than conventional high school. I remember vividly being directly and publicly criticized by friends, fellow students, and even remember feeling it clearly from parents of friends who somewhat looked down on that option as if you were one of those kids from the "other side of the tracks" even though we lived just a few houses away. I even remember a friends father who was in-fact a shop teacher not being so supportive because his main goal was that his children were going to go to college and "do something" with themselves. It never bothered me because for some strange reason (which I am sure I owe fully to my mother raising me) I always knew, and was at peace with, my "lot" in life. I knew I was a worker bee and was happy, proud, comfortable, with that regardless of what others thoughts were. I relished the times when those parents called me, a 17 year old, at 10 at night because their boiler wouldnt start, or water heater let go, or their roof was leaking, or their lights had gone out. As a young person I would go, get them back on track, and take nothing. I owned them at that point.

I fear that in todays society the kids like me have no support. They have no "normal" to look to. I fear we will be left with a bunch of clerks at the autoparts store, cashiers at the home center, and fewer and fewer doing good quality work for customers. You can see it on nearly every jobsite out there and read it on every forum. Quality is going down, down, down. Perhaps rightly so, those who dont see the value in the vocational education system are suffering because of it. Im not vindictive but but I have little sympathy for their suffering.

I honestly think liability is a major reason for a lot industrial arts programs disappearing however I also feel schools and the education system in general is so bloated with bureaucracy, excessive compensation, complacency, and making schools into visual Mecca's instead of schools, chews up the funds that would allow them to carry adequate liability to keep these programs in place.

[Andrei Georgescu]

Kids should develop their minds and skills in schools. After all, being able to use tools, to plan and build stuff is a fundamental characteristic of a human being. Maybe it's not relevant for some but at least the system should provide optional classes in this area.
The Germans are doing a wonderful job with their high standards in educating craftspeople. I think this is one of the areas where the German educational system got it right. No wonder they're the driving force of Europe's economy.

[David Weaver]

The german system, if it is what it once was, does a better job of directing high school age kids into things that will train them to be economically useful (I know that term offends some) and to not allow them to run into university and waste their time and money on something that will never be gainful for them.

We have vo-tech schools here, but I don't know what they train in right now. Auto mechanical stuff and HVAC, Welding, etc were popular at the vo tech when I was a kid, but you had to travel 40 minutes to get to the local votech school vs. less than 10 for most other kids. And they never did actually present it that I can recall - or maybe they only presented the option to certain kids.

[Stew Hagerty]

The german system, if it is what it once was, does a better job of directing high school age kids into things that will train them to be economically useful (I know that term offends some) and to not allow them to run into university and waste their time and money on something that will never be gainful for them.

We have vo-tech schools here, but I don't know what they train in right now. Auto mechanical stuff and HVAC, Welding, etc were popular at the vo tech when I was a kid, but you had to travel 40 minutes to get to the local votech school vs. less than 10 for most other kids. And they never did actually present it that I can recall - or maybe they only presented the option to certain kids.

I believe that "Economically useful" is a term that we, as Americans, have a moral and ethical obligation to be. Freedom isn't free. Back when this country was founded, people didn't wait around expecting handouts (especially not from the government), they worked and they worked hard. Sure, some folks were unable to work because of some sort of disability just as they are today. Back then their families took care of them. But I digress... Another term is "economically successful". That second term is what you can become if you are the first.

It's so sad. In a time when we have sure high unemployment, and are losing so many jobs where people actually work with their hands to illegal aliens (that's right, I did not say the more politically correct, yet completely incorrect, term of "undocumented immigrant") and to other countries, that our government thinks the best thing to do is eliminate all training in those very trades.

Sorry for going all political on everyone here, but it just bites my butt that this is happening.

[Mark Bolton]

It's so sad. In a time when we have sure high unemployment, and are losing so many jobs where people actually work with their hands to illegal aliens (that's right, I did not say the more politically correct, yet completely incorrect, term of "undocumented immigrant") and to other countries, that our government thinks the best thing to do is eliminate all training in those very trades.

Stew,
I dont think it has anything whatsoever to do with "our government". When I was in shop class we had spinning sharp things whirring around, in metal shop we soldered with old school furnace heated soldering irons, things that would "burn you". We soldered with "lead solder". These are not things that have been demonized by governments. They are things that have been demonized by parents and insurance companies. School boards of course are wanting to hoard all the funds for their top heavy existence but there is no order from on high to eliminate vocational training or industrial arts programs. The issue is a redirecting of funds and liability.

The simple fact of the matter is, in the context of this conversation, where would one go to "learn" these trades? Brian says they dont teach them in school, David says his notion of vo-tech doesnt sound so great. So where does a kid go? They can get some experience in a vo-ag program at school or go to some ITT tech school after high school (that they likely cant afford) to learn how to build a house or work with wood?

Scapegoating the government is an all too common, and forgive me but, lazy, way to go about it. There is no national mandate to do away with industrial arts programs in middle and high school. I have had local schools approach me to bring students to our shop to make things and get some hands on, field trip, type work in. Why do you think I dont do it? Dewey Cheat'em and Howe is why. I couldnt protect myself from a hardwood sliver. Heck the hot soldering irons alone when I was in middle school would shut any program down now. Lead solder? Sharp metal? Poly Urethane?! Its the parents and the insurance companies.

Blaming the government is a reinforcement of the nanny state.

[Chris Padilla]

It taught me a pleasurable hobby that I tend to spend way too much money on!!! :p

I can't honestly say if it guided me towards engineering (I'm an EE) but if I wasn't doing engineering, I'd probably be building houses or furniture or something like that...I think.

[Stew Hagerty]

Stew,
I dont think it has anything whatsoever to do with "our government". When I was in shop class we had spinning sharp things whirring around, in metal shop we soldered with old school furnace heated soldering irons, things that would "burn you". We soldered with "lead solder". These are not things that have been demonized by governments. They are things that have been demonized by parents and insurance companies. School boards of course are wanting to hoard all the funds for their top heavy existence but there is no order from on high to eliminate vocational training or industrial arts programs. The issue is a redirecting of funds and liability.

The simple fact of the matter is, in the context of this conversation, where would one go to "learn" these trades? Brian says they dont teach them in school, David says his notion of vo-tech doesnt sound so great. So where does a kid go? They can get some experience in a vo-ag program at school or go to some ITT tech school after high school (that they likely cant afford) to learn how to build a house or work with wood?

Scapegoating the government is an all too common, and forgive me but, lazy, way to go about it. There is no national mandate to do away with industrial arts programs in middle and high school. I have had local schools approach me to bring students to our shop to make things and get some hands on, field trip, type work in. Why do you think I dont do it? Dewey Cheat'em and Howe is why. I couldnt protect myself from a hardwood sliver. Heck the hot soldering irons alone when I was in middle school would shut any program down now. Lead solder? Sharp metal? Poly Urethane?! Its the parents and the insurance companies.

Blaming the government is a reinforcement of the nanny state.

Mark, Mark, Mark... I could really go on all day about this and sooooo many other things. However, this is a social woodworking forum and I feel it is not the place for intense political discussions.

My point was simply that it is such a shame that my children's children will not have the same opportunities that you and I, and countless generations before us did.

[Mark Bolton]

\it is such a shame that my children's children will not have the same opportunities that you and I, and countless generations before us did.

I couldnt agree more.

[Brad Adams]

As a plumbing and heating business owner, I can assure you, shop classes are a great way to teach young people how to use tools. Brian has obviously never been in a position of working with someone who has no idea of how to use tools. I regularly hire high school students in the summer time for part time help. I can easily see the difference in someone who has taken some shop classes. I had one kid who didn't know how to use a push broom, No kidding. It gets harder all the time to find someone who wants to make a living in the trades. Shop classes in school need to be kept going.

[Brian Elfert]

I do repair a lot of things myself. I finished my basement, two bedrooms, and two bathrooms back in 2007. I did about 50% of the work myself with some help and hired out the rest. I did the electrical and plumbing and it passed inspection the first time. Now, I don't do everything myself. My house is presently for sale. One of my cellular blinds broke a string yesterday. I thought about restringing it myself, but I found a guy who could do it same day for $60 at my house. He knew some tricks I would never have known like rotating the rivets so the string wouldn't just get cut on the worn rivet again. I also found out Wednesday the front part of my roof needs to be re-shingled. I decided I probably wouldn't be able to do it myself for at least a month so I will probably pay to have it done as they can do it next week probably.

I've been working on converting a bus to a motorhome since 2006. I've done all the work on the bus except some mechanical work and the woodwork around the bunks. I've probably got 500 hours into the interior and another 200 hours into work on the engine including replacing the 200 pound radiator and fixing oil leaks. A retired friend of mine did the woodwork around the bunks and he probably put 150 or more hours in it.

Despite all this, I don't feel qualified to work at a professional woodworking shop nor do I feel qualified to work as a carpenter. I've built a wall or two in my time, but I wouldn't attempt an entire building without experienced help. I don't know all the little tricks a good carpenter knows to speed things up. I tend to be way too particular about thing which would make me a poor professional carpenter as I would be too slow.

[Brian Elfert]

As a plumbing and heating business owner, I can assure you, shop classes are a great way to teach young people how to use tools. Brian has obviously never been in a position of working with someone who has no idea of how to use tools. I regularly hire high school students in the summer time for part time help. I can easily see the difference in someone who has taken some shop classes. I had one kid who didn't know how to use a push broom, No kidding. It gets harder all the time to find someone who wants to make a living in the trades. Shop classes in school need to be kept going.

My father and I do volunteer repair and construction work at a Scout camp every year for a week. There is a small group of guys who are professional framers who build entire buildings for the camp during that week. They won't let anyone else help because someone who doesn't know framing just gets in the way. I know how to use a lot of tools, but I wouldn't be any help never having been a framer.

[Stew Hagerty]

My father and I do volunteer repair and construction work at a Scout camp every year for a week. There is a small group of guys who are professional framers who build entire buildings for the camp during that week. They won't let anyone else help because someone who doesn't know framing just gets in the way. I know how to use a lot of tools, but I wouldn't be any help never having been a framer.

Construction, woodworking, electrician, plumber, auto mechanic, etc... Those are things you cannot learn without doing. Our kids need to learn how to work with their hands. Even if they never become a framer or plumber, hands-on training teaches more than just the trade itself. It teaches discipline, responsibility, and I think it triggers a part of the brain that allows a person to think 3 dimensionally in a way that books and computers just can't do. It signals our technical gene to kick in.

[Jim Matthews]

I could really go on all day about this and sooooo many other things.
Please don't, you're lecturing out of your depth.



However, this is a social woodworking forum and I feel it is not the place for intense political discussions.
Spare us the Libertarian theology. Plenty of places for this - elsewhere.

[Jim Matthews]

This trend is cyclical.

When I attended high school, there was unrelenting pressure to attend college.
There were literally 800 kids in my freshman Chemistry class, and ten other sections besides.

I remember in my third year of University wondering where all these people would go to find work.
The truth is that few of us were prepared for meaningful careers, with an associated demand.

These days, I'm paying big money to attend woodworking classes to learn the stuff
I could have learned in High School shop class, had I but paid attention.

Gathering a basic skill set for household repairs means you're not at the mercy of contractors,
and at least know enough to shop around. Every handyman has limits, and shop class expanded mine.

*******

Anybody that goes off on a bender and twists this to any agenda should be beaten with a torque wrench.
It doesn't belong here, not now - not ever.

[Brett Luna]

Brian has obviously never been in a position of working with someone who has no idea of how to use tools. I regularly hire high school students in the summer time for part time help. I can easily see the difference in someone who has taken some shop classes. I had one kid who didn't know how to use a push broom, No kidding. It gets harder all the time to find someone who wants to make a living in the trades. Shop classes in school need to be kept going.

I even experienced that in the military. I maintained fighters (avionic sensors) during my first 12 years. Every year, it seemed like more and more young people hardly knew the difference between and socket and and allen wrench. It also didn't help that maintenance was dumbed down for expedience, although I well understand the reasoning. When I enlisted, I learned how to troubleshoot down to the individual component and replace it. I could repair a printed circuit board. I could build a wiring bundle. Then more and more was done at the depot level rather than in the field. We swapped cards and later, entire modules or subassemblies until the systems worked.

[Stew Hagerty]

Please don't, you're lecturing out of your depth.

Spare us the Libertarian theology. Plenty of places for this - elsewhere.

I'm sorry Jim, but after what I said, why did you feel the need to insult me and tell me not to do something that I'd already said should not be done here.
Oh, and just FYI... not to speak on something "out of your depth" or anything, but I am a Conservative and an Originalist not a Libertarian.

[Chris Padilla]

No politics, Folks, and let's keep this friendly please.

[Stew Hagerty]

No politics, Folks, and let's keep this friendly please.

That is exactly what I was trying to do Chris.

[Brian Elfert]

I went to a vo-tech college after not making it at a traditional college. I was working towards a Microcomputer Specialist associates degree, but I got a job two classes short of graduation so I didn't finish. I started a small business and ran it for a few years. When it became clear I was going to sell the business I went back and completed one of the two classes I needed. I got a new job after selling the business and never took the last class. I did go back this past fall to see if I could take the last class, but they said I would need to meet the requirements of the current degree. I would basically have to start over and it isn't worth it.

I don't have a college degree and still make a salary approaching upper middle class. I'm pretty lucky as most in my field won't hire anyone without a degree. There are four where I work doing the same job. Only one has a degree even though most would have degrees. One guy was promoted from another dept and the other guy was hired a few years back without a degree. (He almost wasn't hired without a degree, but he is an excellent worker.)

[Stew Hagerty]

I went to a vo-tech college after not making it at a traditional college. I was working towards a Microcomputer Specialist associates degree, but I got a job two classes short of graduation so I didn't finish. I started a small business and ran it for a few years. When it became clear I was going to sell the business I went back and completed one of the two classes I needed. I got a new job after selling the business and never took the last class. I did go back this past fall to see if I could take the last class, but they said I would need to meet the requirements of the current degree. I would basically have to start over and it isn't worth it.

I don't have a college degree and still make a salary approaching upper middle class. I'm pretty lucky as most in my field won't hire anyone without a degree. There are four where I work doing the same job. Only one has a degree even though most would have degrees. One guy was promoted from another dept and the other guy was hired a few years back without a degree. (He almost wasn't hired without a degree, but he is an excellent worker.)

Great success story Brain. Your will, drive, and hard work has served you well.
I went to college for Business Management then started my own construction company. I was a general contractor for 14 years before selling my company and going to work as a Senior Project Manager for a really large commercial contractor working primarily military jobs all over the world. I worked there until I got sick in 2008. Thankfully they have a really good LTD plan because I am now confined to a wheelchair.
I wouldn't have been able to do what I did without Middle School Shop Class and working summer jobs at one of the local mobile home plants. They always hired 16yr+ teens in the summer as extra help. I learned framing, electrical, plumbing, cabinet making, roofing.

[Brian Ashton]

Yes, I'm serious. How many openings are there for people to work in an old fashioned wood shop and make things on table saws, jointers, planers, and the like? There is a place near where I live where they make custom things from wood, but a lot of cutting is done on their CNC router. I believe they will make cabinets, but they don't make cabinet doors. They just order them from a place that specializes in cabinet doors. I had them cut some plywood for me once as I needed higher precision than I thought I could achieve with my tools.

I don't believe that taking wood shop would help me be a carpenter or anything like that. We didn't learn how to build houses. I loved wood shop, but we never built any big projects as a class like a grandfather clock or some other big project.

Right now, there aren't a lot of jobs in the woodworking end of things. But that's because we're at the bottom end of the business cycle world wide. Give it a few years and wood shops will be screaming for labour. Things are definitely getting better though. I've been looking on UK job websites and there's a lot of ads for tradies.

I emigrated solely on my cabinet making qualifications at a year or two before the peak of the last boom, no body cared about my post secondary. Cabinetmakers, and all trades, were on the very high in demand list for Australia. So long as you were white, could speak english and had a trade ticket you leap frogged over all the other visa applicants and went straight to the front of the line. Right now you you can only get in on a trade ticket if you have a ridiculous amount of money to put up as security. All western nations were at that time screaming for trades. Tradies were higher in demand than PhDs, doctors and the likes... Give it a few years when we are well and truly heading up the face of a newly building business cycle you'll see demand for all trade really take off again, just like it does on average every 7 to 10 years... The key is capitalizing on the ups and downs of the cycles. Jump in when there's a solid upswing happening and get your tickets(s) asap and get ready to ride out the coming collapse. Then pay close attention to where the cycle bottoms out and start getting ready to start your own business, and jump in when you start seeing building start and house prices increasing. And when things are progressing along well and you are putting out ridiculously high quotes to customers, more in hopes that they will go away, but they still want to you to do the work and your profits are at an all time high with no end in site of when they'll start levelling off... sell the business off at a stupidly high profit and go work for the new owners or another outfit and prepare for the coming crash... Then when things start heating up again start another business...

The average person in their working life should see around 5 to 6 full business cycles. The biggest problem is very few in the trades have any idea what a business cycle is and get caught thinking the gravy train can't end and they end up in bankruptcy court. And/or they have short memories and forget about the last time the economy was on the skids and stick their neck way too far out again and again...

[Brian Elfert]

Anyone who can accurately predict business cycles should be playing the stock market instead of plying a trade. The United States, and most of the world, has not really fully recovered from the last recession. Recessions have happened every five to seven years recently so we might be due for another one soon. My employer survived the last several recessions before the 2008/9 one without layoffs. This time they had to lay off half the work force and the jobs are never coming back.

The only possibly bright side for the USA is the number of workers retiring. By 2020 we might have a labor shortage due to retirees. The department where I work has at least three people retiring this year, but it is possible none will be replaced.

[Patrick Grady]

The shop class that I took in grade school back in the early 70's taught me not only woodworking, but also fundamentals of electricity. It helped me to secure my first paid job at age 11 wiring houses for a church member during the summer. Learning how to use tools, how to take a project from idea to completion, how to search for answers to joinery challenges also helped to create and nurture a sense of independence, confidence and a love of working with all types of tools that has benefited me throughout my life.

Shop class is not just about woodworking - it's about teaching young adults the basics involved with living on your own and the satisfaction resulting from being less dependent upon others. It also is about opening one's eyes to the wonders of how things work in our world. And finally, it is about opening your eyes to what your own true potential is, instead of just learning about what others have done.

Well said.
I graduated from a tech school in North Carolina (NC has a powerful system of tech schools modeled on the Calif system dating back into the 60's) and it changed, focused, and directed my work-life. HVAC became my sport and it played into immediate successes starting with testing into a valuable masters refrig license. One vivid memory is being required to cut and file a 2" aluminum hexagon block using only hand tools and files. The block was an after-class project requiring the display all the common screw threads along with appropriate labeling and was to be measured and graded down to a calipered thousandth. I poured my pride into that stupid block and after thinking at first that it was some make-work exercise I later understood that it was serious business. I learned tons in tech school and still lay my clean tools down on a cloth in an orderly manner no matter what the task. Tech education is a village handing down folk tools regarding electronics and steel and wood and plastics and chemistry and physics. But more, gives a hand up to younger folks in a place that allows their curiosity and pride to express themselves into growing and filing perfect aluminum blocks.