Where Does Your Table Saw Fence End?

[Bill Space]

Hi,

I have a Delta Unifence on my table saw. This gives me the option to place the end of the fence anywhere I wish with respect to the saw blade. In other words, I can have the fence extend beyond the blade, or have it end at the center of the blade, or anywhere I like (just about) between the front and back edges of the saw table.

I believe I may have read somewhere that it may be safer to have the rip fence end somewhere between the center of the blade and rear of the blade. Not sure about this, as it never occurred to me not to support the wood as it left the blade.

What are you guys doing? Does your rip fence extend beyond the exit side of of the table? Do you put the end closer to the blade? Or???

How should the fence be positioned for safest operation?

Asking because I never really considered doing it different than I have been, that is with the fence sticking out on both sides of the table (entry and exit edges, respect to the blade).

Thanks for any guidance!

Bill

[Mike Heidrick]

Depends on the cut. With a miter gauge you side it back before the blade (or use a small 2nd extrusion). Other than that have it across the table. Had the Unifence on a Delta and now have the Sawstop Bies clone. I just clamp a small sub plate when needed so the fence is Always across the table.

[Bill McNiel]

I also have the Unifence and keep it about 60% in front of the blade with the remaining 40% on the outfeed side.

[Dave Richards]

The Brits seem to like to set the fence so its aft end is just slightly behind the front edge of the blade. the claim is that it is safer because the work can't get trapped between the fence and the upward moving teeth. I see the logic but long use with a full length fence makes it difficult to think about going that route.

[Jeff Duncan]

You set it for the material being cut….sheet goods do well with longer support even going well past the blade. Ripping hardwoods and you want to have less fence behind the blade. That is why they made it adjustable, so you can set it to the material your using it for;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Bill Space]

The Brits seem to like to set the fence so its aft end is just slightly behind the front edge of the blade. the claim is that it is safer because the work can't get trapped between the fence and the upward moving teeth. I see the logic but long use with a full length fence makes it difficult to think about going that route.

Dave has zeroed in on what I was trying to ask about. I am surprised that the fence would end just after the front end of the blade though. Would not have thought to do it that way.

Not sure why one would position the fence differently for sheet goods rather than lumber...

Aside from the Unifence and maybe others I am not aware of, it seems like normal fences found in the USA do not offer front back position adjustment.

My guess is that most of us, like me, just set there Unifence to mimic the position of other fences that are non adjustable.

Still not sure what is the best/safest way to position my Unifence rail (For Ripping).

One concern I would have if I put the rail in position so that it was just past the front end of the saw blade would be that I might not be able to hold the position of the work as I neared the end of the cut, and would end up with a kind of snipe as the result...

Looking forward to hearing more comments/guidance!

Bill

[Roy Turbett]

Not sure why one would position the fence differently for sheet goods rather than lumber...

Still not sure what is the best/safest way to position my Unifence rail (For Ripping).

Looking forward to hearing more comments/guidance!

Bill

Sheet goods are dimensionally stable and the kerf won't open or close as the material moves past the blade. When cutting dimensional lumber (hardwoods and softwoods) the kerf has a tendency to open or close. If the kerf opens, the material on the right side of the blade acts like a spring if it is being resisted by a fence. The longer the fence, the greater the resistance. And if the bulge hits the back of the blade you end up with a kickback. By moving the fence so it ends at or slightly before the center of the blade, there is nothing for the wood to spring against. A riving knife or a splitter helps prevent a kickback but doesn't prevent the spring action. If you notice burn marks on your cuts, there's a good chance they are being caused in part by the fence being out of allignment or too long. You can also feel the spring action because the wood becomes harder to push through the cut as it is resisted by the saw blade and/or riving knife/splitter.

[Don Huffer]

Sheet goods are dimensionally stable and the kerf won't open or close as the material moves past the blade. When cutting dimensional lumber (hardwoods and softwoods) the kerf has a tendency to open or close. If the kerf opens, the material on the right side of the blade acts like a spring if it is being resisted by a fence. The longer the fence, the greater the resistance. And if the bulge hits the back of the blade you end up with a kickback. By moving the fence so it ends at or slightly before the center of the blade, there is nothing for the wood to spring against. A riving knife or a splitter helps prevent a kickback but doesn't prevent the spring action. If you notice burn marks on your cuts, there's a good chance they are being caused in part by the fence being out of allignment or too long. You can also feel the spring action because the wood becomes harder to push through the cut as it is resisted by the saw blade and/or riving knife/splitter.

I must say. In 25 years of cutting wood on my Unisaw. I have never experienced a kick back. I may set my fence back to the front after reading this thread but mostly for better starts on long boards.

[Bill Space]

... By moving the fence so it ends at or slightly before the center of the blade, there is nothing for the wood to spring against. A riving knife or a splitter helps prevent a kickback but doesn't prevent the spring action....

That is interesting and makes sense. I suppose the disadvantage relates to possible snipe occurring due to the lack of support by the fence at the exit side of the blade. As they say, there is no free lunch... Am I seeing this correctly?

[Roy Turbett]

That is interesting and makes sense. I suppose the disadvantage relates to possible snipe occurring due to the lack of support by the fence at the exit side of the blade. As they say, there is no free lunch... Am I seeing this correctly?

Yes. This problem can happen at the end of the cut because the end of the fence can act like a pivot point if you fail to push the workpiece parallel to the blade. But you won't have the problem if you stay focused on keeping the workpiece against the fence and stop pushing as soon as the cut is finished. Its also one reason I don't use "The Gripper" because it only takes a slight twist of the wrist to move the unsupported workpiece into the blade. The other reason is that I don't have a riving knife and can't use my Biesmeyer splitter with the Gripper.

The bottom line is that as you gain experience you will develop a personal preference for where you position your fence. Some of it will depend on what type of fence you have and some of it will depend on how you position yourself at the table and what type of push sticks and accessories you use. Just think it through and remember that if it doesn't feel safe it isn't.

[keith micinski]

I would never set the fence up short of the back edge of the blade for a rip cut no matter how careful you are you have the chance to use the end of the fence like a pivot point and actually rotate the work piece into the leading edge of the blade not only creating snipe but possibly worse things.

[Roy Turbett]

I would never set the fence up short of the back edge of the blade for a rip cut no matter how careful you are you have the chance to use the end of the fence like a pivot point and actually rotate the work piece into the leading edge of the blade not only creating snipe but possibly worse things.

Keith - I agree with you and my personal preference is to position the fence slightly past the blade. My earlier comment "By moving the fence so it ends at or slightly before the center of the blade, there is nothing for the wood to spring against" is intended to answer the question of why one would move the fence depending on the material being cut. The European preference seems to be at or slightly before the center of the blade. However, I wasn't trained by a European and developed my personal preference based on how I position myself at the table and the accessories I use.

[Chris Parks]

The fence in my experience & having saws that have both types is best set at somewhere between the leading edge and the middle of the blade if ripping. Once the cut is started the plate of the blade dictates to a large extent the cut line and if it is fed correctly then the cut line is straight. The only reason to have the fence beyond the arbour is to make sure that a kickback occurs and you injure yourself or if having a boring day it tends to liven things up and raise your interest level. For full sheets it is better to have it as long as possible due to needing the guidance and kick back from a full sheet is not really an issue. For fences that are not adjustable make a sub fence that attaches and is easily removable. If a T track could be used the sub fence would be adjustable in that same way as the European style fences are. Until I had a sliding fence (in length) I never realised how many times I would move it for different operations and it is far far safer. Kickbacks can be caused by wood movement but if honesty were to prevail most would be caused by bad user technique or stupidity. Using a half fence nearly eliminates both but nothing is perfect. I think that when you first start using one it forces you to improve your feeding technique if it is at all lacking.

[Roy Turbett]

The fence in my experience & having saws that have both types is best set at somewhere between the leading edge and the middle of the blade if ripping. Once the cut is started the plate of the blade dictates to a large extent the cut line and if it is fed correctly then the cut line is straight. The only reason to have the fence beyond the arbour is to make sure that a kickback occurs and you injure yourself or if having a boring day it tends to liven things up and raise your interest level. For full sheets it is better to have it as long as possible due to needing the guidance and kick back from a full sheet is not really an issue. For fences that are not adjustable make a sub fence that attaches and is easily removable. If a T track could be used the sub fence would be adjustable in that same way as the European style fences are. Until I had a sliding fence (in length) I never realised how many times I would move it for different operations and it is far far safer. Kickbacks can be caused by wood movement but if honesty were to prevail most would be caused by bad user technique or stupidity. Using a half fence nearly eliminates both but nothing is perfect. I think that when you first start using one it forces you to improve your feeding technique if it is at all lacking.

Chris - I agree that in a perfect world that if stock is "fed correctly then the cut line is straight." But "fed correctly" is a relative term that depends on variables such as where you stand, whether you're right or left handed, the type of push stick you are using, the amount of material on either side of the blade, the length of the stock, where and how the push pressure is applied and other variables I'm sure I'm forgetting to mention. I have to disagree that "the only reason to have the fence beyond the arbor is to make sure that a kickback occurs." If that were the case, we'd be hearing of users of Biesmeyer fences experiencing kickbacks on a regular basis. I think Don's experience is more typical where kickbacks are either unknown or a rare occurance. I should also point out that the Unifence manual doesn't even give a recommendation on where to position the fence when ripping. If positioning the fence in front of the arbor is superior one would think that Delta would have said so in the manual to avoid litigation. But I do agree with you that "nothing is perfect" and improving your "feeding technique" is important.

As I said earlier, "as you gain experience you will develop a personal preference for where you position your fence. Some of it will depend on what type of fence you have and some of it will depend on how you position yourself at the table and what type of push sticks and accessories you use. Just think it through and remember that if it doesn't feel safe it isn't."

[Chris Parks]

Fed correctly does not mean anything else than what it says, why stance or anything else has anything to do with it beats me.

[Rick Potter]

I have a Unifence also, but rarely move it. Then again, I rarely crosscut on the table saw.

Seems to me the manufacturers would not make the fence full size if they thought they didn't need to.

Rick Potter

[Chris Parks]

I have a Unifence also, but rarely move it. Then again, I rarely crosscut on the table saw.

Seems to me the manufacturers would not make the fence full size if they thought they didn't need to.

Rick Potter

The counter argument would be the Europeans don't build a full length fence because they don't see the need as it does not add to the function of the saw. They were doing this many years before it became a mandated safety requirement.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a Euro machine with the fully adjustable fence, it can be long, short, high or low.

For ripping solid material, the fence should end at the start of the wood contact with the blade. With the fence pulled back it gives you the longest support length prior to the blade. Once the blade has cut the wood, the fence cannot change that cut, and this fence position results in the lowest risk of binding and kickback with the greatest amount of support ahead of the blade.

The short fence setting is also ideal for using the rip fence as a crosscut stop. With the fence ending before the blade, there is no risk of the piece being trapped between the fence and the blade.

For ripping sheet goods, which have no internal stresses, the fence can end past the blade, however I set mine up to end at the end of blade as this also increases the infeed fence length, and accuracy.

In the low position the fence is ideal for bevel cuts, or thin rips as it allows room for a push stick with the guard in place. The low position also is useful when operating the saw with the stock feeder, many Euro saws have these on a flip up mount. I use mine often in this configuration when there is repetitive ripping.

Once you've used the Unifence or Euro fence system, you won't go back to older fixed fence..........Rod.

[Bill Space]

Lots of good info and food for thought here.

Thanks guys!

Bill

[jack forsberg]

I always get a kick out of these threads as it is clear very few Americans understand the sliding rip plate fence. Ron gets it and has it down very well. Because many american place the hands near the blade(the reason they dislike the crown guards) and do not use a riving knife they feel that the long through fence gives them control. safety features like the griper who very use precludes the use of a crown by it very nature makes them feel more in control. this is because after the cut is finish they have to guild the work through the trap that the long fence makes. I always ask when making a cut if the wood was suddenly removed where are my hands? the short fence position(incidentally set just behind the gullet depth of the rip blade to rip reaction timber). The blade is set high(full hight unlike what is often not the case here in training) so that the wood does not slap/lift the wood and kick it back at you. The blade set high is not a problem as there is a crown and nose piece so hands/ fingers can't get near the cutting blade if something goes bad. So you see a short fence needs a riving knife, crown, and a least 2 push stick to be effective at ripping reaction timber . the fence is not an isolated feature.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luS0q1GmjxM















I have a Euro machine with the fully adjustable fence, it can be long, short, high or low.

For ripping solid material, the fence should end at the start of the wood contact with the blade. With the fence pulled back it gives you the longest support length prior to the blade. Once the blade has cut the wood, the fence cannot change that cut, and this fence position results in the lowest risk of binding and kickback with the greatest amount of support ahead of the blade.

The short fence setting is also ideal for using the rip fence as a crosscut stop. With the fence ending before the blade, there is no risk of the piece being trapped between the fence and the blade.

For ripping sheet goods, which have no internal stresses, the fence can end past the blade, however I set mine up to end at the end of blade as this also increases the infeed fence length, and accuracy.

In the low position the fence is ideal for bevel cuts, or thin rips as it allows room for a push stick with the guard in place. The low position also is useful when operating the saw with the stock feeder, many Euro saws have these on a flip up mount. I use mine often in this configuration when there is repetitive ripping.

Once you've used the Unifence or Euro fence system, you won't go back to older fixed fence..........Rod.

[Roy Turbett]

This is a link to a video that started a similar discussion on another woodworking forum. It shows how to make a short rip fence accessory for a Biesmeyer style fence with both a low and high position similar to the Unifence. If you watch closely, you can see that when he demonstrates the low fence position the workpiece lifts off the table and could have kicked back if it had gone any higher. This happened because he started pushing with his stick while the workpiece was hanging unsupported off the end of the table and demonstrates one of the variables thats involved in choosing what feeding technique to use. You will also notice that he uses a different style of pushstick than the one that is shown in Jack's video. I use both styles depending on what I'm cutting.

Also, if you look closely at Jack's video you can see that the waste piece is also being pushed with his left hand. If the piece was the same length as the blade, the leading edge could be pinched between the back of the blade and the riving knife which could also cause a kickback. This is unlikely to happen with the saw he is using simply because the riving knife is in such close proximity to the back of the blade and it maintains a consistently small gap as the blade is raised or lowered. However, in my situation I only have a splitter and the size of the gap between the back of the blade and the splitter varies depending on how high I set the blade. The bigger the gap, the more likely a kickback with a short piece of wood. The worse case scenario is if there isn't a riving knife or a splitter and you are pushing with both hands regardless of whether you are using push sticks. It always amazed me that Norm Abram didn't use one or the other because they are such an important safety feature and neither one would interfere with "photographic clarity" which is the reason given for not using the guard. As Jack said, "the fence is not an isolated feature."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7QXIN2X8-w&feature=user

[Rod Sheridan]

The only reason to have the fence beyond the arbour is to make sure that a kickback occurs and you injure yourself or if having a boring day it tends to liven things up and raise your interest level..

Chris, thanks for that............LOL..................Personally I prefer my interactions with machinery to be as boring as possible..........Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

All these short fence arguments would make more sense if the wood wasn't touching the table as it moved past the blade. Like on a slider. When ripping off the carriage I always make the fence short so the drop won't bind. But when ripping lumber off the fence, if ther is no guide nor visual reference it's anybody's guess where the wood might go. I think the primary reason for the riving knife is the silly short fence! Give it try, decide for your self. I tried a short fence, if the wood drags just a little at the end of a rip you have no control over which direction it moves with short fence. And it always seems to move!

[Grant Wilkinson]

I don't have a riving knife saw. I wish that I did, but that's the way it is. I do have a splitter. When I first read/heard about using a short fence, I couldn't imagine how I could continue to push the piece completely past the blade in a straight line without the fence there to keep it straight.

I played with the short fence and realized after a couple of cuts that, once the front of the blade has cut the piece, there is no reason to keep pushing. The light finally came on. (I'm not usually this dense, really.) So, now once the piece is cut, it can move laterally away from blade since the fence is not in the way. There can be no kick back since there is nothing for the piece to be pinched against.

This was not intuitive for me. My meager training was on a full length fence saw. However, now that I've used it for some time, I prefer the short fence. As my fence cannot be shortened, I simply use a piece of MDF that clamped to the fence; the mdf stops just after the leading edge of the blade.

As Peter said, it's worth trying.

[jack forsberg]

All these short fence arguments would make more sense if the wood wasn't touching the table as it moved past the blade. Like on a slider. When ripping off the carriage I always make the fence short so the drop won't bind. But when ripping lumber off the fence, if ther is no guide nor visual reference it's anybody's guess where the wood might go. I think the primary reason for the riving knife is the silly short fence! Give it try, decide for your self. I tried a short fence, if the wood drags just a little at the end of a rip you have no control over which direction it moves with short fence. And it always seems to move!

Peter much of your problem is your so used to controlling the direction of the cut through after the cut that your side pressure is angle at the back of the blade to keep it from the rising teeth of the saw. Old dog new trick kind of thing.:D Its takes all of a day to get used to placing the pressure just so you have just as much control. As has been said this is a position for reaction timber that will need to be dressed as the tension releases from the cut any way. that said the plate slides so move it to what ever positions you like. the point being its has many positions .

BTW the riving knife was invented some 100 years ago for the sliding cartage saws for logs like the old Stenner and Gun mills so for a silding table it would seam:rolleyes:


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/stennerandgun_zpsa8955eb8.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/stennerandgun_zpsa8955eb8.jpg.html)

[Peter Quinn]

Peter much of your problem is your so used to controlling the direction of the cut through after the cut that your side pressure is angle at the back of the blade to keep it from the rising teeth of the saw. Old dog new trick kind of thing.:D Its takes all of a day to get used to placing the pressure just so you have just as much control. As has been said this is a position for reaction timber that will need to be dressed as the tension releases from the cut any way. that said the plate slides so move it to what ever positions you like. the point being its has many positions .

BTW the riving knife was invented some 100 years ago for the sliding cartage saws for logs like the old Stenner and Gun mills so for a silding table it would seam:rolleyes:


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/stennerandgun_zpsa8955eb8.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/stennerandgun_zpsa8955eb8.jpg.html)


Ive tried the short fence. Say I have a 4 foot rip, and my fence ends at the arbor, and I'm ripping hard maple that has been wide belt sanded, so it is smooth but has a little friction. And say I'm in a wood shop, not a NASA lab, so my out feed table has some wear to it, or is not perfectly smooth and friction free. I'm doing my darndest to push the wood straight, but in that last 8-10 inches or so, I have 4' beyond the arbor and only a few inches on the fence, and the long end is adding a little "english" to the equation. Its trying to walk left, its trying to walk right, its trying to hit my face. For me its like a military operation, or a dance step. A long as everybody has a direction to move and everybody moves the same direction, all goes well. I'm not comfortable letting the wood do the decision making, and I'm sure not pushing wood into a saw blade while holding a shuffle board cue. I'd like to see the guy with the big saw above ripping 16/4 maple newel post stock for turnings that is 5' long and crabby while pushing with his chop sticks! He's got the right blade for it! We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

[jack forsberg]

I'd like to see the guy with the big saw above ripping 16/4 maple newel post stock for turnings that is 5' long and crabby while pushing with his chop sticks! He's got the right blade for it! We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

this one thick and crocked enough for ya?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9HMLx6Iiv8

[Andrew Joiner]

this one thick and crocked enough for ya?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9HMLx6Iiv8

What a nice relaxing video:eek:

[keith micinski]

Ive tried the short fence. Say I have a 4 foot rip, and my fence ends at the arbor, and I'm ripping hard maple that has been wide belt sanded, so it is smooth but has a little friction. And say I'm in a wood shop, not a NASA lab, so my out feed table has some wear to it, or is not perfectly smooth and friction free. I'm doing my darndest to push the wood straight, but in that last 8-10 inches or so, I have 4' beyond the arbor and only a few inches on the fence, and the long end is adding a little "english" to the equation. Its trying to walk left, its trying to walk right, its trying to hit my face. For me its like a military operation, or a dance step. A long as everybody has a direction to move and everybody moves the same direction, all goes well. I'm not comfortable letting the wood do the decision making, and I'm sure not pushing wood into a saw blade while holding a shuffle board cue. I'd like to see the guy with the big saw above ripping 16/4 maple newel post stock for turnings that is 5' long and crabby while pushing with his chop sticks! He's got the right blade for it! We may have to agree to disagree on this one.


Whatever science says this is exactly how I feel and couldn't have said it any better. I do also wonder about everyone's fear of kickback. I have been doing this hobby for 15 years and have never experienced a kickback yet. I understand that good technique and common sense dictate whether a kickback situation happens. It seems like people are implying that kickback is something that will happen on it's own and your best bet is to have as many safety features as possible to protect you so that when it does magically happen your covered. I'd be willing to bet that almost every kickback situation that has ever happened probably had more to do with operator error then it did the "kickback fairy" I think the shorter fence closer to the blade is one way to setup for certain situations but feel that it's not the only way to setup as some people have implied in he his thread.

Also I must really be missing the point of that video because while there are situations that I like a push stick for, being forced to use a push stick, which you are with that saw set up that way, is absolutely ridiculous and I think the creator of that video knows it that's why they used a 16" piece to demonstrate.

And what the heck is a piece of wood getting "slap lifted".If my choice is to have ten inches of sharp blade spinning and sticking up out of the table creating a gigantic area where I can no longer place anything including push sticks, or having the blade set a tooth height above the work piece so that very little of the blade is impeding me and trying to take my entire arm off I will take the risk of this slap lifting, again whatever the hell that is. Science be damned that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen running the blade at full height for fear of wood jumping around on its own.

[David Kumm]

285704I prefer to have it both ways and find myself moving from short to long and back depending on the wood and length I'm ripping. I ran a Biesemeyer for years and liked it a lot. I'm fairly anal about setting the fence and don't buy into the toe out method much. You can tell by look and feel if the fence is set right by how the wood behaves as it passes the blade. As the saws got bigger and the blade diameter got larger I went to the more Euro type fence. As the distance from the front teeth to the rear increases, the short fence becomes more advantageous. Not as fun to push a board beyond a 14-16" blade all the way with all but long pieces. Jack runs some blades that straddle the US - Canadian border and make mine look small so I have no doubt he finds the short fence preferable. Big difference between a 10" and an 18" blade in day to day use. There is a comfort factor in moving the board away from the blade as soon as the cut is finished when you have another mile of blade to clear to get to the rear. I'm not sure you can make a definitive argument without taking into account the type of saw, type of wood, and type of cutting being done. I do find I move the fence forward and back almost as much as side to side. Dave

[Bill Space]

Hi again,

I had a couple pieces of ash to rip to a 1.75 inch width. Only about 3' or a bit longer.

Decided to try setting my Unifence to end at about 1/2" past the front edge of the saw blade.

Ripped the wood and was pleasantly surprised by the feel of doing it this way. I liked the experience. However, I did notice a slight difference in thickness of the end product.

This may be due to poor practice on my part. Difference was between .004 inches and .020 inches over four pieces, but this may be due to having an edge that was not square against the rip fence, as the four pieces started as two pieces that were resawed after ripping and thickness planed to 1/4 inch thickness. I did face joint and edge joint the pieces though. I better check my jointer's fence for 90 degrees, just in case.

This measurement was taken at the ends and I think the main body of the pieces was much more even than the extreme measurements at the ends would indicate.

My guess is that towards the end of the cut something happened, but that does not make sense as if the wood shifted the cut pieces should have narrowed rather than getting wider...

Have to do some more thinking about this...

Bill

[David Kumm]

If the teeth on the back of the blade are nicking the board as it passes you will have an end that is slightly wider but you should be able to see that from examining the cut. Very slight ridge on the board that the back teeth are hitting and none on the other board. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Have to do some more thinking about this...

Bill

Glad to see that you're experimenting with it.

It does take a while to become accustomed to a different work method............Rod.

[Roy Turbett]

I just had a rather interesting day in the shop where I experienced a kickback while ripping some 1/4" strips from a wide 3/4" thick knotty pine board. A friend had purchased the board from HD the night before and it had already begun to warp by 1:30 pm the next day. He needed the strips for his model train layout. I had a brand new rip blade on my Unisaw and was using a Uni-T -Fence that was pulled back so the end was even with the point where the cut was complete. The blade height was set at about the bottom of the gullet. I was also using a Biesmeyer splitter with anit-kickback pawls and a 16" push stick. I had a magnetic featherboard in front of the blade to hold the workpiece tight against the fence and was pushing the piece on the right hand side of the blade. I stopped pushing as soon as the cut was complete and experienced the kickback after about 80 successful cuts. The kickback was caused when the 1/4" strip moved left and got pinched between the anti-kickback pawl and splitter. The piece had so much curve in it that it caught the side of the blade and kicked back the moment I lifted the push stick. I could tell it hit the side of the blade because the saw marks began about 2" from the end of the cut. This would be about even with the arbor at the end of the cut but no further because I stopped pushing when the cut was complete. I was standing to the left and the piece shot straight back and hit and penetrated a cardboard copy paper box. This may not have happened if I had a riving knife instead of a splitter, or if I had removed the anti kickback pawls, or if I had set the blade at its full height which would have moved the rear of the blade closer to the splitter like you find with a riving knife, or if I had been cutting a more stable wood, or if I been cutting a wider piece. Here's some pictures I took after the incident. The first picture shows the stick stuck in the box. The third photo is a reconstruction that shows how much curve there was in the piece. The fourth photo shows the fence position and the fifth photo shows the anti-kickback pawls and the gap between the splitter and the back of the blade.

286525286526286527286528286529

[jack forsberg]

first thing i see is you lack the low position fence(looks like the sliding fence plate is not OEM and lack the high low) you have no crown guard eather. The low position lets the fence come in close to the crown guard but let you use the push stick between the blade and fence for narrow strip ripping . lastly the space between the knife and the back of the blade is too large and therefore not safe for this cut(narrow strip ripping). knife has to be 8mm or less behind the blade to be effective with kick back.

I would have raised the blade with a crown guard in place and position to keep the work from lifting . The splinter would then be 8mm from back and used a slide back low position fence. you can make an L fence if your saw fence does not have the high low.

Like i said the fence is not an isolated fixture.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/low_zps3f970238.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/low_zps3f970238.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/8mm_zps86921fed.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/8mm_zps86921fed.jpg.html)

[Jeff Duncan]

I'd also point out that I would not stop pushing stock while it was still in contact with the blade:confused: I'm not sure from your description why your doing this, but I would not continue to do it in the future. Keep the stock moving until it is behind the blade, and your potential for kickback is gone.

In short, this has nothing to do with the fence position, splitter, or stock….it's just poor technique plain and simple:(

JeffD

[Roy Turbett]

Jack -

I agree that a riving knife and crown guard is a better setup but I don't have either one. I do have the original Unifence that I could have used in the low position, but I don't see where that would have made any difference because kickback happened after the piece had cleared the fence. Had I been using a crown guard, I agree that the low fence position is a better choice to make it easier to use a pushstick.

But this kickback didn't have anything to do with the fence or the splitter position in relation to the blade. It was caused by the piece getting caught between the splitter and anti-kickback pawl. What happened is the kerf closed beyond the splitter and the left side of the far end of the 1/4" piece was being held by the larger waste piece. When the piece became trapped the anti-kickback pawl acted as a brace for the right side. Prior to the cut being completed, the other end was held in place by the wood. As soon as the cut was completed, the kerf on the front end closed and rubbed against the right side of the front of the blade. Friction pulled the piece forward resulting in a kickback. If the piece hadn't been pinched between the splitter and kickback pawl it wouldn't have acted like a spring because there would have been nothing to hold it in place and it would have fallen off to right. This is essentially the same type of kickback that can occur with a long fence where the fence provides the brace for the piece to spring against. In this instance, the anti-kickback pawl acted like a fence beyond the blade which negated the benefit of the shorter fence I was using.

Jeff -

You may have misunderstood me. When I stopped pushing the cut was complete and the stock wasn't in contact with the blade. The piece sprung back into the blade when I lifted the stick. Had the piece not been caught between the splitter and anti-kickback pawl, it would have just layed there and there would be no reason to push it further.

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff -

You may have misunderstood me. When I stopped pushing the cut was complete and the stock wasn't in contact with the blade. The piece sprung back into the blade when I lifted the stick. Had the piece not been caught between the splitter and anti-kickback pawl, it would have just layed there and there would be no reason to push it further.

If so then I'm still misunderstanding…..which wouldn't be the first time:o So when you rip a piece of hardwood, regardless of the fence setup, you should not stop pushing the stock until the trailing end is beyond the blade. It is not just when the cut is completed, it's when the stock is past the blade. What it sounds like your describing is b/c your using a short fence you no longer feel it necessary to push the stock the full distance….in which case that's a bad assumption. I had a kickback some years ago crosscutting stock. I was cutting a stack of parts to length and left the offcuts at the back of the blade. There was no fence involved so no way for them to become trapped and kick back. Well that saw had just tiny bit of vibration which I guess was just enough to move one of the off cuts slightly into the back of the blade. The blade grabbed that roughly 1" x 4"sq. maple block and threw it back at me so hard I though my arm might have gotten broken. Luckily I escaped with little more than a bruised arm and ego. Anyway the moral of the story is that trapped or not, you want to keep stock from lying around at the back of your blade….cut finished or not;) I know sometimes we think we're doing something safely b/c we can do it x amount of times without a problem. But as you learned…it only takes once!

It also sounds like maybe your anti kickback pawls may have been in the way? In which case personally I would have removed them as they are virtually useless in stopping kickbacks. I'm all for using safety devices, but having started out in a bigger shop I learned that safety devices aren't always safe. To the point even OSHA allows for devices to be removed in certain situations where they are in the way of completing an operation safely. I think your setup with just the splitter would have been safer….though still moving the stock completely past the blade if possible.

anyway good luck,
JeffD

[Bill Space]

I have just started using my fence in the position that Roy has illustrated. If you are using a traditional "American" fence position it is a different ball game.

With the fence positioned as pictured by Roy, once the cut is beyond the end of the fence there is nothing to pinch the wood against the saw blade, unless you have the anti kickback pawls in place. Without the anti kick back pawls, both pieces of wood are sitting on the saw table and the saw blade has little ability to lift them and cause a kick back. So the advantage is that you do not have to push the material all the way past the blade, and in the process you avoid pushing your hand/arm in close proximity to the blade.

Granted, I have just started using this method. AND I do not use the anti kick back pawls when doing this.

But I do know that this technique feels MUCH safer than what I have previously done for the last thirty or so years. I think like Roy has stated, that the issue was a narrow piece being pushed against the saw blade by the pawls. Probably would not have happened if the pawls had not be in use.

So the message my brain received is to be sure NOT to use the anti kick back pawls when using the fence in the European style position. At least when cutting thin strips.

Also a good idea to have a riving knife, rather than a splitter, which fortunately I have in my case...

Edit and note:

Jeff, I guess anything is possible. Why you had that kickback when cross cutting .... anybody's guess. When I end the cut past the front of the blade I push both pieces away from the blade, which can be done if the anti kickback pawls are not used. Feels much safer than what I used to do when the fence extended past the blade to the end of the saw table...

[jack forsberg]

Jeff, I guess anything is possible. Why you had that kickback when cross cutting .... anybody's guess. When I end the cut past the front of the blade I push both pieces away from the blade, which can be done if the anti kickback pawls are not used. Feels much safer than what I used to do when the fence extended past the blade to the end of the saw table...

Narrow strip ripping on a saw that is lacking a riving knife is very problematic. feeding thin strip with a push stick that are 1/4" wide is not safe ether pass a saw.

If you need to rip strips that are the same size and accurate you can make a simple fixture that uses the same short fence and riving knife principals but is home made. Some like to have the cutoff fall to the out side/waste side of the cut but this means you have to move the fence for each cut. this fixture is easy to set up and you don't change the setting

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/photo3_zps4ed994a1.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/photo3_zps4ed994a1.jpg.html)

all this is is a piece of flat stock keyed to the miter slot and a front stop with the blade cut up through the thickness of the work to rip. when you set it up to cut screw down a temporary piece flush with the right side of the blade coming up through. Then lay your strip that your would like to cut(this one is set to cut 1/32") against the screwed down board (saw line) and place the in-feed short fence to stop just in front the saw blade.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/photo1_zps81a2c1a5.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/photo1_zps81a2c1a5.jpg.html)

you put the back spliter right behind the blade with the wedge pushing the thin strip off cut away from the blade and off the same board you screws down(cut line) this gives you the short long fence so all should be happy:p

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/photo2_zps6fec1d0a.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/photo2_zps6fec1d0a.jpg.html)

[Joe Calhoon]

Roy,
Ripping on a table saw is inherently dangerous no matter how you approach it. Add springy fast growth wood to the mix and it gets worse. We have a straight line rip and a sliding saw now that make these type of rips safer. That does not help your situation though.

I see a couple things wrong with your setup. The fence is too far back and as Jack mentioned the splitter is too far from the blade. There is a lot of controversy concerning fence position. For years we have used the European method where the fence is positioned mid blade then as width of stock increases the fence is moved forward at about 30 degrees from center of blade. Of course for sheet goods the fence can extend a lot. The picture shows this and by no means do you need to get the 30-degree angle out every time you rip. Just to give an idea of position. Turning the fence down also makes things safer and easier.

I do not like to use a push stick to take thin rips all the way through either. Back in the day when doing narrow rips on a table saw we used to lift the board out midway and flip it to finish the cut. This has some dangers of kickback also but felt it was better than a push stick on narrow stock. Our slider has a foot pedal blade raise and lower that makes cutting by flipping very safe especially on long stock. Just push the stock through, drop the blade, flip and finish the cut dropping the blade again at the end. Jacks jig would be a better solution on a standard table saw.

We used to keep a Unisaw on wheels for the odd cuts not done on the slider and SLR. Since we started using the Fritz and Franz jig a year ago we have not turned on the Unisaw. Using this for ripping on the slider is safer than a Saw Stop just because your fingers are nowhere near the blade. The other good thing about using the slider is you are never directly behind the blade. See second picture with fence drawn back.

Joe
286588286589286590

[Moses Yoder]

To me it seems like if the fence does not go past the blade there is a chance of the wood pivoting after being pushed past the fence and hitting the back of the blade and exploding up into your face. I suppose it depends on what you are used to. I like the Unifence and have used it a lot, currently using Biesemeyer. The only reason the extrusion for the fence was designed that way I think is so the fence can be turned and put on the other side, plus the full length groove is just a function of the extrusion. The added advantage is the fence can be set anywhere along the length. I guess where it is set is up to the individual until the government starts regulating it.

[Don Huffer]

With all the publications I've read over the last 35 years. Never have I read a single article about fence position as it relates to position forward and back. While I realize many fences don't move in this manor. Still if there were an advantage to be gained, wouldn't we have read about it by now?

After reading about the small cut shooting through the cardboard box and looking at the pictures. I'm not surprised. I wouldn't set up that cut like that and I certainly wouldn't have the "safety" jaws behind the blade. I like to use nothing because these items take the control factor away from me. I like to see the cut all the way through and want nothing sliding across the wood to "help" me stay safe. Vision, feel and sound is most important to me. Making the same cut the same way every time possible is where all these years of never having an accident come into play. Using a sharp blade and having the saw in perfect alignment insure a safe quality cut. If your working with hard wood, thick stock or unruly wood best off if you take extra precaution and don't count on the "safety" equipment to save your butt.

Having stated my opinion I am in no way advising anyone to throw away there saw safety equipment. How will I teach my family to use woodworking equipment? With good safety practices.

Al B Thayer

[jack forsberg]

With all the publications I've read over the last 35 years. Never have I read a single article about fence position as it relates to position forward and back. While I realize many fences don't move in this manor. Still if there were an advantage to be gained, wouldn't we have read about it by now?



If that were to hold true you would have read about the riving knife some 50 years earlier.:rolleyes:

[David Kumm]

I think you have to experiment enough with all techniques to make the call. Fences that slide forward and back have been in Europe for years. As much as I like the Biesemeyer style I now have moveable extrusions on all my saws. Dave

[Don Huffer]

If that were to hold true you would have read about the riving knife some 50 years earlier.:rolleyes:



I'm referring to fence position nothing more nothing less. Maybe when you rolled your eyes you missed or read into my point.

Al

[Don Huffer]

I think you have to experiment enough with all techniques to make the call. Fences that slide forward and back have been in Europe for years. As much as I like the Biesemeyer style I now have moveable extrusions on all my saws. Dave

I haven't had a chance to experiment as of this thread. But might give it a try one way or another. From the banter here I haven't been convinced one way or the other. I haven't experienced any trouble and don't know if I would be opening myself up to any.

Al

[Bill Space]

Jack,

That jig you posted the pictures of is very interesting and something I will store in my memory banks for future use. But I think it must be for rather thin strips, maybe 1/16" or so? Something that will bend rather easily...

I can't see 1/4 inch thick strips (like Roy was cutting) bending easily at the angle your jig would force them to. Do you mainly use this set up for thin pieces?

Bill

[Bill Space]

Joe Calhoon said:

"I see a couple things wrong with your setup. The fence is too far back and as Jack mentioned the splitter is too far from the blade."

Granted, a riving knife is better than a splitter that is some distance back from the saw blade. But I wonder how the fence position is an issue. Granted, with the fence back near or at the front end of the blade, one has to be careful when guiding the wood into the blade, or otherwise will end up with a width variation, a kind of snipe so to speak, if that term cannot be applied to this situation, as the back end of the wood clears the blade.

But is seems to me as a beginner at using my fence pulled back towards the front end of the blade, that keeping the fence back towards the front end of the blade decreases the possibility of experiencing a pinch between the blade and the fence. So it should be a safer position, but with the risk of ending up with a differing thickness at the end of the board being ripped.

I don't see how Roy's fence position contributed to the kickback more than the fence would have if it had been positioned so the front end was at the middle of the saw blade...

Is my perception somehow distorted?

Bill

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe Calhoon said:

"I see a couple things wrong with your setup. The fence is too far back and as Jack mentioned the splitter is too far from the blade."

Granted, a riving knife is better than a splitter that is some distance back from the saw blade. But I wonder how the fence position is an issue. Granted, with the fence back near or at the front end of the blade, one has to be careful when guiding the wood into the blade, or otherwise will end up with a width variation, a kind of snipe so to speak, if that term cannot be applied to this situation, as the back end of the wood clears the blade.

But is seems to me as a beginner at using my fence pulled back towards the front end of the blade, that keeping the fence back towards the front end of the blade decreases the possibility of experiencing a pinch between the blade and the fence. So it should be a safer position, but with the risk of ending up with a differing thickness at the end of the board being ripped.

I don't see how Roy's fence position contributed to the kickback more than the fence would have if it had been positioned so the front end was at the middle of the saw blade...

Is my perception somehow distorted?

Bill

Bill, Most likely the fence position was not the cause unless the material was not pushed past the blade. I disagree with that far back fence position but like I said there are a lot of opinions here. I think the springy wood or possibly saw vibration was the cause.

The fence position he had like the Wadkin rip saw video will ease up on blade pinching a little more than my mid position but I feel you loose a lot of board control at the end.


Joe

[Roy Turbett]

Jeff Duncan wrote,"If so then I'm still misunderstanding…..which wouldn't be the first time:o So when you rip a piece of hardwood, regardless of the fence setup, you should not stop pushing the stock until the trailing end is beyond the blade. It is not just when the cut is completed, it's when the stock is past the blade. What it sounds like your describing is b/c your using a short fence you no longer feel it necessary to push the stock the full distance….in which case that's a bad assumption. I had a kickback some years ago crosscutting stock. I was cutting a stack of parts to length and left the offcuts at the back of the blade. There was no fence involved so no way for them to become trapped and kick back. Well that saw had just tiny bit of vibration which I guess was just enough to move one of the off cuts slightly into the back of the blade. The blade grabbed that roughly 1" x 4"sq. maple block and threw it back at me so hard I though my arm might have gotten broken. Luckily I escaped with little more than a bruised arm and ego. Anyway the moral of the story is that trapped or not, you want to keep stock from lying around at the back of your blade….cut finished or not;) I know sometimes we think we're doing something safely b/c we can do it x amount of times without a problem. But as you learned…it only takes once!

It also sounds like maybe your anti kickback pawls may have been in the way? In which case personally I would have removed them as they are virtually useless in stopping kickbacks. I'm all for using safety devices, but having started out in a bigger shop I learned that safety devices aren't always safe. To the point even OSHA allows for devices to be removed in certain situations where they are in the way of completing an operation safely. I think your setup with just the splitter would have been safer….though still moving the stock completely past the blade if possible."

Jeff - I think Moses Yoder accurately stated why proponents of the short fence say you should stop pushing when the cut is complete when he wrote, "To me it seems like if the fence does not go past the blade there is a chance of the wood pivoting after being pushed past the fence and hitting the back of the blade and exploding up into your face." Proponents of the short fence believe this isn't an issue if you stop pushing when the cut the is complete because the unsupported piece has to be moving in order to pivot. But since the piece was supported by being pinched between the splitter and kickback pawl, pushing it beyond the blade may have prevented the kickback much the same way a kickback can be prevented by pushing the stock past the blade with the fence in the long position.

You are correct that the kickback pawls got in the way and I've considered removing them. What's ironic is that the kickback pawl not only caused the kickback, but it also prevented the piece from lifting off the table because I wasn't using a crown guard. I think I'm going to make a zero clearance insert with a shop built splitter for ripping long narrow stock or build a jig like the one Jack uses.

Moses also wrote that, "The only reason the extrusion for the fence was designed that way I think is so the fence can be turned and put on the other side, plus the full length groove is just a function of the extrusion. The added advantage is the fence can be set anywhere along the length." The problem is that the Unifence instructions don't say anything about where to position the fence for ripping operations and as this thread has shown, there are a number of opinions.

[Joe Calhoon]

Roy,
The Unifence was a copy of the Euro sliding fence that has been around since the late Fiftys. I used a conventional long fence the first 5 years of my career starting in 1976. After I got my first euro saw I never went back to the long fence.
Martin sends a 28 page book on table saw safety with their saws. Here is one page that has a good solution to ripping narrow stock.

Joe
286642

[Roy Turbett]

Roy,
The Unifence was a copy of the Euro sliding fence that has been around since the late Fiftys. I used a conventional long fence the first 5 years of my career starting in 1976. After I got my first euro saw I never went back to the long fence.
Martin sends a 28 page book on table saw safety with their saws. Here is one page that has a good solution to ripping narrow stock.

Joe

Joe - Thanks for the information. It looks like the push sticks have some metal in them which is similar to something I read in another thread. It also looks like the fence extends beyond the blade.

Roy

[Joe Calhoon]

Roy,
If you look close it is a short L shaped fence attached to the main fence ending mid way on the blade. Hard to see in the scan. Some of the handles are Aigner but they could be shop made as well.
Joe

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff - I think Moses Yoder accurately stated why proponents of the short fence say you should stop pushing when the cut is complete when he wrote, "To me it seems like if the fence does not go past the blade there is a chance of the wood pivoting after being pushed past the fence and hitting the back of the blade and exploding up into your face." Proponents of the short fence believe this isn't an issue if you stop pushing when the cut the is complete because the unsupported piece has to be moving in order to pivot. But since the piece was supported by being pinched between the splitter and kickback pawl, pushing it beyond the blade may have prevented the kickback much the same way a kickback can be prevented by pushing the stock past the blade with the fence in the long position.

You are correct that the kickback pawls got in the way and I've considered removing them. What's ironic is that the kickback pawl not only caused the kickback, but it also prevented the piece from lifting off the table because I wasn't using a crown guard. I think I'm going to make a zero clearance insert with a shop built splitter for ripping long narrow stock or build a jig like the one Jack uses.

Moses also wrote that, "The only reason the extrusion for the fence was designed that way I think is so the fence can be turned and put on the other side, plus the full length groove is just a function of the extrusion. The added advantage is the fence can be set anywhere along the length." The problem is that the Unifence instructions don't say anything about where to position the fence for ripping operations and as this thread has shown, there are a number of opinions.

I can see that train of thinking although I don't think it would be as likely to pivot into the blade with the splitter/riving knife in place? I think you've keyed on to the important factor here though….not all cuts can be handled the same way. Which is why the short fence is good in some cases, and the long in others. Also why sometimes pawls can be OK, (though I still believe there mostly useless), and other times they can be in the way. You have to think through what it is your trying to accomplish and with what material, and although you still may not be able to cover every possible outcome, you'll improve your chances.

Anyway I think Joe's pic is probably the safest way to rip long narrow strips. I still do mine the old school way which I personally don't find any more dangerous than other cuts, but probably is not quite a safe as the one pictured. I use my Beis fence for everything as it's what I'm used to, and use a push block to do narrow rips. It's not very elaborate, usually a scrap chunk of 6/4 stock that I cut most of the bottom out of leaving a small lip. The back lip catches the stock and pushes it through with my hand safely above. The blade only projects about 1/4" or less above the stock and there is almost no chance for the stock to kickback as I push the pieces well past the blade. However…..I would NOT do this particular method with a short fence setup as you need support of the fence to guide push block;)

good luck,
JeffD

[jack forsberg]

Jeff i use that way for lots of cut on my small saw but the crown is never in place on the saw in my setup so my hand can go over top the blade. Of course its out the side the regs for safe saw practices mandated in the UK since 1975 and so is not aloud in commercial shops. crown has to be in place for all cut or a Shaw guard/power feeder used so this cut would not be aloud in the UK because of PUWER 98

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd268.htm

so the sliding rip plate high low fence is to meet with the machinery regs. The fence can not foul the crown is one of the basic/main reasons the bissy is not seen in the EU less in the armature shop. saws are not used in the way there are here and other machines are general employed for safer work practice stipulate using the appropriate machine. HSE see guard removal as an means to consider the machine type for a said cut. As has been said the position of the fence is in relation to the other guarding and can not be viewed as a type of fence. It is clear that NA view the fence /knife/ crown as isoated fixtures .

[Roy Turbett]

Jeff -

I use a pushstick thats similar to yours when I'm ripping short stock, dimensional or otherwise. I use the fence in the long position and use a shoe type push stick that allows me to put downward pressure against the stock and the fence until the stock is beyond the blade. The pushstick is patterned after an old hand saw handle and is more than twice as tall as the orange plastic ones you see in catalogs. I only use this one for rips that are more than 1" wide so the pushstick can get past the splitter. I also like to use a magnetic featherboard in front of the blade. I make all of my push sticks out of 1/2" MDF because I can easily tune them up on the disk sander if I have to. The shoe stick also works good on the jointer and router table but the "Gripper" with the drop down cletes is my favorite for the jointer.

[Don Huffer]

I rip thin stock on the outside of the blade. Not between the blade and the fence. Unless its just one or two pieces.

If you clamp a stop block to your miter gauge. You can advance the wood over to the stop while still using the fence as a guide. The miter gauge stop is in front of the blade so no pinch occurs.

[Roy Turbett]

I rip thin stock on the outside of the blade. Not between the blade and the fence. Unless its just one or two pieces.

If you clamp a stop block to your miter gauge. You can advance the wood over to the stop while still using the fence as a guide. The miter gauge stop is in front of the blade so no pinch occurs.

Rockler sells a "Thin Rip Table Saw Jig" that works the same way. Someone gave me one as a gift and it works as advertised. The problem is that eventually you get to a point where the piece on the left is the same size as the piece on the right. Here is a link to the catalog.

http://www.rockler.com/thin-rip-tablesaw-jig

[Don Huffer]

Rockler sells a "Thin Rip Table Saw Jig" that works the same way. Someone gave me one as a gift and it works as advertised. The problem is that eventually you get to a point where the piece on the left is the same size as the piece on the right. Here is a link to the catalog.

http://www.rockler.com/thin-rip-tablesaw-jig
True about the size of the piece getting smaller. I don't mind running thin rips on either side but I use the outside stop if I'm going to do a lot of them.