Dovetails, why not a hacksaw?

[Gary Kman]

Been practicing with a nice new back saw cutting dovetail. I'm sure that with enough practice I would become more accurate. Of course the stiffener on the back edge prevents me from sighting down the blade and cut line.

A bow saw the size of a car door for dovetails somehow doesn't appeal to me but has a couple things going for it. It holds the blade in tension which stiffens a thin blade. Also the blade can be set twisted a few degrees from the plane of the frame so one can sight down the blade.

It looks like a quality hacksaw could be produced with the violin peg blade holders of a bow saw to achieve the twist. And of course blades with suitable pitch, depth and set would also be needed?

Any thoughts about the practicality of a tensioned frame saw as described for cutting dovetails?

(I almost stopped with "any thoughts?" :eek:

[Derek Cohen]

In 1995 Cecil E Pierce wrote a book, "The Precision Cutting of Dovetails". Actually, he wrote it some years before but could not find enough information for the book, and it was too skinny to publish. He had to wait a few more years, and even then he padded it with pictures of planes he built.

Anyway, his big method was the use of a hacksaw. Two chisels (ground at 18 degrees) and a hacksaw for his dovetails.

Of course, he was a total nutter, as you are. Everyone knows you need an expensive, custom backsaw to cut dovetails. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

It will work. I think most standard hacksaw blades would cut very slowly in hard woods compared to a standard western or Japanese dt saw. Btw, have you tried a dozuki? And I can't follow how "sighting down the blade" is necessary or an advantage in cutting DTs.

[John McClanahan]

One thing that would probably help is a hacksaw that doesn't have the rotating blade mounts. Those things never seem to hold the blade true to the handle.

John

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've done it. Slow going even with the coarsest teeth blades I had. The smallest and lightest weight hacksaw you could find would be a boon. For similar cost, I'd rather just grab a cheap pullsaw from the hardware store if I was looking for an alternative to try.

Wasn't there someone out there at one point demoing cutting dovetails with a hacksaw and a sharpened screwdriver to show that the key here is practice and skill and not necessarily the tools?

There's nothing wrong with it, and you certainly don't need fancy kit for such small cuts, I just would probably pick something other than a hacksaw myself.

[Kees Heiden]

If almost everyone succeeds in making dovetails with a dovetailsaw, and you don't, then the solution isn't trying to use another type of saw. ;)

I don't sight down the blade either. I just look from the side and see where the edge is leading to.

[Gary Kman]

Btw, have you tried a dozuki? .

Yes. I don't like the sawdust covering my line and the saw I tried doesn't have enough set to steer the blade. Does yours?

[bob blakeborough]

Yes. I don't like the sawdust covering my line and the saw I tried doesn't have enough set to steer the blade. Does yours?

You really shouldn't have any need to steer the blade when cutting a DT. once the kerf is started, it will guide the saw on its own. You would have to be out a mile to need a correction that requires steering the blade as DT cut are usually only 3/8ths to 1" long...

If you find starting on the correct angle is a bit troublesome, maybe try angling your board so you are cutting straight down. You might find a straight cut simpler to start without having to sight down the spine than an angled cut...

Just a thought...

[george wilson]

A hacksaw is totally unsuitable for wood cutting. I see no reason that anyone would want to use one,unless it was the only saw they had. It will clog right up and as said,cutting will be slow going. Perhaps a cold chisel could accompany it in an auto repair shop,where the mechanic decided to take up woodworking on his lunch time.

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't see why a hacksaw would be favorable to a small bow saw.

I use a backsaw, I don't sight down the blade because I use the reflection in the saw to see if I'm plumb.

[Sean Hughto]

Yes. I can cut dovetails with my Japanese saws and western saws. That's not a brag, anyone who gets the hang of sawing can. Dust will get on lines with any saw, its just a matter of the line in the end or the line on the face. If you breathe while you saw, you can blow away any dust as part of the process, but before long its more feel than lines anyway.

[Brian Holcombe]

My lines get covered in dust with 'merican saws just the same as japanese.

I prefer western tools, but japanese joinery, so I'm strange.

[Jim Koepke]

Of course the stiffener on the back edge prevents me from sighting down the blade and cut line.

The solution is to move your eye a bit to the side and learn to correct for the angle.

In my own trials and tribulations a line is marked all around a piece being cut. After the piece is cut it is inspected and evaluated for any corrections needed. My goal is to have the knifed edge remain and only the slightest amount of fuzz on the surface beyond the knifed area. With care and consideration my goal is becoming reality.

Some saws are made to be steered. Those are fret saws, coping saws and turning saws. Saws for cutting dovetails and tenons are not to be steered. If the saw pulls to one side or the other, there is something wrong with the sharpening or the set.

BTW, a hacksaw does work (poorly) for cutting wood. I had to use one at work a couple of times to cut wood because there wasn't any proper saws to use.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

:p
bow saw the size of a car door :p
Ha, HA, HA,

:D
Of course, he was a total nutter, as you are. :D
Ha, ha, ha,

Gary,
you realize that was a psychological professional's opinion. :(
tough brake buddy.
Who knows . . . maybe with proper therapy and MUCH medication . . .

Derek, play youtube.

First off to the literal question : For me too fine of teeth; 14t is the coarsest hack saw blade I have. Second the frame is thick and still in the way and is way too heavy and the steel structure is just over kill. Blades not sharp enough . . .

I do understand what you are after HAVING THE BLADE AND THE CUT IN THE SAME PLANE. by eye.

. .. all I can say is to t'be a wood worker you have to be a little bit twisted. Boopie shoopie I think Joni Mitchell called it. Sorry to have to resort to insider technical jargon . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRmZdTZsD78 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRmZdTZsD78)

As to the frame saw, it seems to me, that to achieve what you want (to have the frame out of the line of sight you have to keep rotating the blade in the frame and the frame is over to one side throwing off your balance etc.

For me this LN round haannnlll is the ultimate dovetail saw.
super thin spine, very light, the round handle makes it agile to change angles.

and . . . wait for it . . . .
. . . . .
they stopped making it. Tell me we are not in the dark ages and regressing. Go ahead, some body . . .

The photos:
I got all into taking photos so you get too many (better than not enough) I DID leave some out. Honest.
LN saw spine is the thickness of two American pennies.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2536_zpse71157a3.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2536_zpse71157a3.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/20120cc2-0d17-45f1-95e4-8612b1e0286d_zps1e851e41.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/20120cc2-0d17-45f1-95e4-8612b1e0286d_zps1e851e41.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2539_zpse2514427.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2539_zpse2514427.jpg.html)

Japanese rip saw of pretty darn good quality has a back about the same thickness. I din't put a vernier on it but is about the same for all practical purposes.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2541_zps20cb3117.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2541_zps20cb3117.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2540_zps21537f72.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2540_zps21537f72.jpg.html)

Note the LN has a longer effective blade.

Note the Japanese saw has a longer "effective ?" handle so at least you get your monies worth right ?

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2542_zps5b1133fc.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2542_zps5b1133fc.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2543_zps736630ec.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2543_zps736630ec.jpg.html)

The little saw I threw in to start a fight.

It is a flush cut saw and cuts on the pull stroke. Basic/not expensive. would give a flat plane line of site to cut dovetails.
Blade is light but not thin and tensioned on the pull stroke so does not need a back. Would need some fettling to make it "accurate" for cutting dovetails. I have not tried it for that purpose.
Go ahead and try one though and let us know how it goes. Might be a whole new revolution in dovetail sawing.
I don't know.
I like a longer saw and course teeth for few strokes.

[Winton Applegate]

Perhaps a cold chisel could accompany it in an auto repair shop,where the mechanic decided to take up woodworking on his lunch time.

aaahhh

George,
I don't think I have been a good influence on you.

[Winton Applegate]

. . . problems that were already addressed. . . .

Gary,
Are you thinking you need a saw different one way or another from a very small frame saw or maybe you haven't seen one listed for sale or use any where.

They make 'em. Or you could have a good time making one. Seems like some real beauties have been shown by members here on SmC quite a while ago.

OK maybe I just answered my own question; you want a small saw with a wider blade maybe.

[Winton Applegate]

Besides dust there is a slight fuzzing (dare I say splintering . . . nah) in the way with the Japanese saws and the ergonomics are all wrong for cutting Western dovetails.

SURPISED THE HECK OUT OF ME

I WAS ALLLLL ABOUT THE JAPANESE SAWS AND WENT WITH THOSE FIRST
in exspensive/well made saws.

I prefer the Western push saws for Western dovetails cut in a Western style Klausz bench.

I still love my Japanese saws but only for softer wood and other applications.

For blades for a custom SMALL bow saw one can cut and then drill a larger blade or buy bandsaw blade off a role or other wise and cut and drill that.

That is what I did for the frame saws I made. I could not buy the standard blades I wanted.

Be ware you will need to change the tooth geometry :
Less set
Less hook angle probably. (easily done; amounts to a very minute secondary bevel right at the cutting edge on each tooth. Less than a stroke with a very fine diamond file.

Perhaps "less" is confusing. Lets say steeper angle. If the saw blade grabs the work and jumps once well started then steepen the upper facet of the cutting angle.

[Brian Holcombe]

I took a nearly identical approach, assuming that the Japanese saws would be better suited to me and then finding out that I much preferred western saws. I think it may also be, in part, that I use hard woods such as white oak, white ash, rock maple.

I'm rarely ham handed with tools, but I did break a mitsukawa handmade ryoba in 8/4 rock maple as the cut pinched. I've been a bit gun-shy with Japanese saws after that. I use a mitsukawa flush cut saw and literally take a full stroke, remove the saw from the kerf and take another full stroke until the material is cut.

[william watts]

Here's somebody that does it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l4uB9M4v5o

[Winton Applegate]

Brian,


Pinched in cut on Japanese saw.
You were oiling or waxing the saw right ?

I am sure Japanese saws can be used in most wood but it kind of takes a shokunin saw sharpener at your side to tune them. We get the generic class of saws here in the states, for all I know, and that means sending them away for changes and the confusion that translation can entail etc.

I am not above going after my own saws with a feather file or diamond file but I suppose there are other aspects that I only have a glimmer of and no training or experience. Especially after reading about Daryl Weir's panel saw tuning people here were referring to recently and those are thicker saws.

[Winton Applegate]

Some body who does it.

NICE !

Love the wooden "Machinist's vise" (roughly speaking).

That is MY LENOX saw. I have several of those !

Looks like he could learn a bit from watching Klausz but I LIKE IT !

Interesting short stroke with the saw.
Why not long strokes ? HE IS DRIVING MY CRAZY !
LONGER STROKES
L O N G E R STROKES
L O N G E R STROKES

Some body give me his address I need to mail him a wider chisel.
Before I finish watching the video.

[Brian Holcombe]

Waxing, something I should start doing on my saws....haha. What's your preferred wax, if you don't mind me asking. Changing the geometry of the tooth is outside of my realm at the moment, for that reason among others I have preferred the ease of western saws.

[Winton Applegate]

Waxing, something I should start doing on my saws....

AND your planes if you aren't already . . . and your chisels and your . . .
well you get the idea.

Can use about any thing including rubbing your fingers on the oily out side of your nose and then on the blade.
From left to right camellia oil in a spritzer bottle, same oil in the felt applicator
then
In the white tin is Renaissance wax (seems very expensive but that tin will last you for ever); good for fine furniture.
Then a candle
The small disc in for ground is "glider" wax for cross country skiing.
The large tin is Carnaba flour wax; very good very cheep.
finally
the large cake is canning wax (actually it is white bees wax which isn't as good but hey this is Television and nothing is real right ?)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2544_zps41dd63db.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2544_zps41dd63db.jpg.html)

[george wilson]

Now IF you could find a vintage hacksaw blade like the 1920's Starrett blade I put on my early 19th. C. Lancashire hacksaw,it might not be so bad. At least,the teeth on that blade are actually set in the usual way instead of having the wavy set they have now. But,the teeth are still on the small side. And,I have never seen a hacksaw blade as sharp as a sharp woodworking saw. Their teeth might be punched,I'm not sure.

[Winton Applegate]

Changing the geometry of the tooth is outside of my realm at the moment, for that reason among others I have preferred the ease of western saws.

Yes they are more than likely filed for your purpose but be aware that the day may come when you need to file your Western saw (s) to optimize for some woods.

For instance I couldn't make my brand new LN back saw cut my purple heart (almost at all) when I was making my big dovetails of my Klausz vise. The saw would grab and jump and was just a bear. I touched the teeth with the diamond file at a bit of an angle to the factory angle, not to dull them but to steepen the edge and the rip saw settled down and cut like a friend.

Worth getting a saw of some kind and spending a few days experimenting on vastly different woods to see what you can see.

Ever seen a feather file ?
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product/156508/3-feather-file-for-japanese-saws.aspx

https://www.fine-tools.com/euroscha.htm

And I like these

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UVS62S/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=1535523722&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B001KN3OPE&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0T8XQ50XZCA3RVJV6K17

Usually super fine is enough

[Winton Applegate]

Wavy modern hacksaw blades.
Yah I tired those early on.
Sent me looking for a real woodworking saw in short order.
Went through a few Non fettled inexpensive Crown brand saws etc. (they can be made to cut first class (was it Will Neptune that has the YouTube doing that ?) but if you are a Newbie Bob help you if you have a stock one that is way, way over set, dull and not straight and dullER on one side. It is enough to make you go looking for an easy sport like Zebra riding or crocodile wrestling.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Winton, I use renaissance wax on my planes, but did not know if it was proper and never thought to use it on my saws and chisels but it makes perfect sense.

[Sean Hughto]

As they say on Facebook: Like!


Well said, George.

[Mike Siemsen]

The answer is yes. While not as nice as a back saw they work well enough. Blades can be purchased in different pitches. Get the kind of hacksaw frame that doesn't rotate the blade holders but mounts the blade on pins either in line with the handle or 90 degrees to it. You can put the blade in either way to do either western or japanese woodworking. I demonstrate with a hacksaw, a sharpend screwdriver, a block of wood with a screw in it for a marking gauge, a piece of 2x4 for a mallet and a pencil. I call it a $12 dovetail kit. Woodworking is really more about acquiring skills than tools. Better tools make the job easier but skills make it happen.

[Joe Leigh]

The answer is yes. While not as nice as a back saw they work well enough. Blades can be purchased in different pitches. Get the kind of hacksaw frame that doesn't rotate the blade holders but mounts the blade on pins either in line with the handle or 90 degrees to it. You can put the blade in either way to do either western or japanese woodworking. I demonstrate with a hacksaw, a sharpend screwdriver, a block of wood with a screw in it for a marking gauge, a piece of 2x4 for a mallet and a pencil. I call it a $12 dovetail kit.

I'd like to see a YouTube video showing that demonstration.

[Steve Voigt]

Woodworking is really more about acquiring skills than tools. Better tools make the job easier but skills make it happen.

That has to be right up there with "let there be light."
Next time I see a thread about "what did you buy at LV," I'll be tempted to just post a link directly to Mike's post above.
The $12 dovetail kit is super cool, too.

[Sean Hughto]

Mike, I understand why you do that demonstration and it makes perfect sense to me to drive home the skills point. But I think the OP's question was more like: "given a choice of all available options, do you think a mini-bowsaw made from a hacksaw blade might be the optimum way to cut dovetails?" Or put another way, is your $12 kit your "go to" when working on fine furniture in your own home shop?

[Pat Barry]

The answer is yes. While not as nice as a back saw they work well enough. Blades can be purchased in different pitches. Get the kind of hacksaw frame that doesn't rotate the blade holders but mounts the blade on pins either in line with the handle or 90 degrees to it. You can put the blade in either way to do either western or japanese woodworking. I demonstrate with a hacksaw, a sharpend screwdriver, a block of wood with a screw in it for a marking gauge, a piece of 2x4 for a mallet and a pencil. I call it a $12 dovetail kit. Woodworking is really more about acquiring skills than tools. Better tools make the job easier but skills make it happen.
Whats the point of that demo?

[Sean Hughto]

Whats the point of that demo?

The point is that it is not the fancy tools, it is the maker. Perhaps you were immune to it, but many starting out seem to think that lack of great tools is what is holding them back or something. I remember lots of folks remarking in the NYW days, that "if they just had Norm's shop full of fancy tools ..." and so on. When I first got a lathe, I took a one day class at the local Woodcraft to learn the basics. The instructor was very down-to-earth and at one point grabbed a screwdriver and sharpened it on a grinder and did some spindle turning with it. His point, and one that struck home with me, was that its just blades and wood, and fancy $100 powdered metal gouges and skews, while nice, aren't required and aren't what gets the job done.

[Pat Barry]

The point is that it is not the fancy tools, it is the maker. Perhaps you were immune to it, but many starting out seem to think that lack of great tools is what is holding them back or something. I remember lots of folks remarking in the NYW days, that "if they just had Norm's shop full of fancy tools ..." and so on. When I first got a lathe, I took a one day class at the local Woodcraft to learn the basics. The instructor was very down-to-earth and at one point grabbed a screwdriver and sharpened it on a grinder and did some spindle turning with it. His point, and one that struck home with me, was that its just blades and wood, and fancy $100 powdered metal gouges and skews, while nice, aren't required and aren't what gets the job done.
Then I suppose later on, he had to regrind a proper tip on the driver for its original purpose of 'driving' and removing screws. Very educational

[Sean Hughto]

I think he brought it with him and used it for the demo. Memorable demonstrations aimed at overcoming tool hype and reinforcing in beginners that "they can do it" cause it's "in them" and not the tool aren't for you I guess. Whatevs.

[Joe Leigh]

Whats the point of that demo?

Those type of posts are always good for a chuckle. Wonder if he figured the cost of time and materials to "sharpen" his screwdriver? Did he use a water stone or an oil stone? Maybe he just rubbed it against the curb?

The same demo could be made using actual inexpensive tools made for that type of work, but that wouldn't have the same dramatic effect.

[george wilson]

I agree with your example entirely,Sean. Regrinding the screw driver back into being a screw driver afterwards is entirely beside the point. I have often re ground NEW screw drivers into a hollow tip like those Grace brand screw drivers,to make them turn screws without buggering the top edges of the slots. Now,I use a set of Brownell's gunsmith screw drivers,especially on fine mechanisms.

[Sean Hughto]

What is with you guys? He was teaching a class. He was demonstrating things. Someone said something about tools that made his demo pertinent. He walked ten steps to a grinder. He ground for 30 seconds or less and took ten more steps back to the lathe. But it apparently doesn't matter what the facts are, you will make up garbage strawmen to ridicule.

[george wilson]

I think the teacher made an excellent,valid point to the students. No,you don't have to have a $100.00 chisel to turn wood. And shock value in a demo is important. It makes students remember the lesson better. Better than teaching them to sharpen a file,which can blow up in your face.(Though I have done that,but know how to be careful with it,not recommended for students).

[Joe Leigh]

Not trying to ridicule at all, just stating that the same point could have been made using inexpensive tools made for that purpose.
No one is questioning his skill.

[bob blakeborough]

I think people remember better when something as extreme as possible is used to achieve a goal. Using a screwdriver really drove (pun intended) home the point to the students that you really can use just about anything, so later if they can only afford a cheaper, proper tool they may look and think "well if he could do it with a screw driver, I know I can do it with a purpose built entry level tool", rather than "well of course he could use a cheaper chisel... He is a professional"...

[george wilson]

That is the point,exactly,Bob.

[Pat Barry]

What is with you guys? He was teaching a class. He was demonstrating things. Someone said something about tools that made his demo pertinent. He walked ten steps to a grinder. He ground for 30 seconds or less and took ten more steps back to the lathe. But it apparently doesn't matter what the facts are, you will make up garbage strawmen to ridicule.
Not ridiculing you or anyone else Sean. I'm sorry my response annoyed you. Sorry to have offended anyone.

N

[Sean Hughto]

Not ridiculing you or anyone else Sean. I'm sorry my response annoyed you. Sorry to have offended anyone.


Pat, I have pretty thick skin on the internet. It would take a lot to actually make me angry, or even "testy." Written communications are tough as one can't see the other fella's body language or hear their tone. I thought I heard sarcasm in "Very educational," and so forth. If you were being sincere, it is I who apologize.

I really do think entertaining demos have a place in teaching. Didn't you ever have a science teacher who did fun experiments with liquid nitrogen or making foaming messes, etc.? I bet you remember those a lot more than dry labs and such, no?

[Mike Siemsen]

When demonstrating it is always a good idea to catch and hold people's interest. How I cut dovetails in my shop and how I demonstrate the cutting of dovetails is not the same process. When you cut dovetails you are working with wood, when you are demonstrating or teaching the cutting of dovetails you are working with people. Humor is always a good way to help people learn and remember, it is about getting people talking and thinking, it makes the demonstrator more approachable and the subject less intimidating. When I see someone demonstrating something I already know how to do I watch the way they teach and interact with the group as much as I watch the demonstration. So sometimes I use a hacksaw and a screwdriver for props as much as tools as they are the correct tools for the job at hand (teaching).