First large leg build with Lock Miter bit, questions

[Bill Huber]

I know there was a thread on this but I can't find it so I am asking.

I am making 6 legs, they will be 3x3x18 and I am using the lock miter bit for the joints.

1. Is there a better way to make them and not use the lock miter?

2. When using the lock miter do you do 2 parts with the same edge and then the other 2 with the matting edge to make the assemble easier?

3. What clamps do you use when gluing then up?

4. When gluing do you worry about getting glue down in the small groove of the joint?

5. Do you make them like a 1/2" longer and then cut them down to size?

Thanks......

[johnny means]

IMO, the lock miters don't offer any advantage in this application. They do, however, offer up a good chance of a sloppy fit.

I would simply glue up my mitered boards in pairs, making sure to get nice right joints. Them I would joint the two exposed glue faces on each assembly so that they were perfect coplanar. These assemblies would then be glued and clamped like any two boards would be glued up. This approach eliminates any error introduced during the sizing, milling, or assembly processes.

[Dick Mahany]

I tried lock miter bits a number of times on legs about 2.75" square and ~24" long with less than desirable success. They did work, however even after a lot of precision measuring, painstaking set up, test pieces, and jigs for hold downs and guides, I still had corners that left me disappointed. (I used a router table with lift). Ultimately, I remade the legs using a conventional lamination glue up with veneer on two faces. I was using QSWO and they came out much better with the latter method. Could just be me, but my lock miter bits sit in my cabinet never used any more.

When I glued the lock miters up, I used the Bessey F type screw clamp ( not K bodies). I also did the glue up with the method you asked about as it seemed to make it easier. I tried cauls to try to keep things in alignment, but they just didn't turn out to suit me especially given all the work that I put into them.

[Mel Fulks]

Bill, glad to help but I thought you bought the set up gauge and liked it. No? I make them a little long. Make the pcs so that you will have to clamp in only one direction. I use wood strips for glue cauls with paper under them so that they don't stick to project. You can put glue on just one piece but I always at least put some glue on opposite 45 edge. They don't need to be clamped long , saw a guy put glue on a piece that was supposed to be left loose to wrap a metal support. He put glue on it ,saw his mistake immediately and still had dificulty removing it.

[David Wong]

I remember Mark Singer showed a great technique for laminating table legs. See 12 foot Wenge dining table (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?43101-12-foot-Wenge-dining-table) thread.

[Cary Falk]

I 45 the edges and then use a biscuits to hold it together while I get clamps on it. I can glue the 4 sides up all at once. Super easy.

[Alan Bienlein]

I know there was a thread on this but I can't find it so I am asking.

I am making 6 legs, they will be 3x3x18 and I am using the lock miter bit for the joints.

1. Is there a better way to make them and not use the lock miter?There are always other ways. You could just cut 45's and use tape to clamp them up.

2. When using the lock miter do you do 2 parts with the same edge and then the other 2 with the matting edge to make the assemble easier?Yes that way you only need clamps on one side.

3. What clamps do you use when gluing then up?I just use my harbor freight "F" style clamps.

4. When gluing do you worry about getting glue down in the small groove of the joint?I use a brush to spread the glue around so it's on all surfaces of the joint.

5. Do you make them like a 1/2" longer and then cut them down to size?No.

Thanks......

I see there is a lot of dislike for a joint that a lot of people have trouble setting up right. Now that this jig is on the market those days are long gone and no need to save all those set up blocks.

[Mel Fulks]

Never used a router .But carbide cutter on shaper works well . I wrote a couple of lengthy posts on old thread that work
well and guaranty no tear out regardless of the wood. Oh, I think a power feeder is a nessesity .

[Bill Huber]

I tried lock miter bits a number of times on legs about 2.75" square and ~24" long with less than desirable success. They did work, however even after a lot of precision measuring, painstaking set up, test pieces, and jigs for hold downs and guides, I still had corners that left me disappointed. (I used a router table with lift). Ultimately, I remade the legs using a conventional lamination glue up with veneer on two faces. I was using QSWO and they came out much better with the latter method. Could just be me, but my lock miter bits sit in my cabinet never used any more.

When I glued the lock miters up, I used the Bessey F type screw clamp ( not K bodies). I also did the glue up with the method you asked about as it seemed to make it easier. I tried cauls to try to keep things in alignment, but they just didn't turn out to suit me especially given all the work that I put into them.

I did find on my test legs that I was not clamping them very well and went to the F style clamps and that is doing better.


I remember Mark Singer showed a great technique for laminating table legs. See 12 foot Wenge dining table (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?43101-12-foot-Wenge-dining-table) thread.

The problem is Mark has a LOT more skill then I do, his work is really something.

[Bill Huber]

Bill, glad to help but I thought you bought the set up gauge and liked it. No? I make them a little long. Make the pcs so that you will have to clamp in only one direction. I use wood strips for glue cauls with paper under them so that they don't stick to project. You can put glue on just one piece but I always at least put some glue on opposite 45 edge. They don't need to be clamped long , saw a guy put glue on a piece that was supposed to be left loose to wrap a metal support. He put glue on it ,saw his mistake immediately and still had dificulty removing it.

The jig is great and I have been using it on some drawers with great success but with the 4 boards so close together I am having a problem with one of the corners. I have changed the way I was cutting the boards and am using different clamps and this is helping a lot.


I see there is a lot of dislike for a joint that a lot of people have trouble setting up right. Now that this jig is on the market those days are long gone and no need to save all those set up blocks.

The little jig is great, I can set up a lock miter bit the first time in most cases and the only time it takes 2 shots is when I don't get my head down and look at the height line straight on.

[Bill Huber]

I 45 the edges and then use a biscuits to hold it together while I get clamps on it. I can glue the 4 sides up all at once. Super easy.

I just may try cutting them at 45° and then using biscuits, I don't use them very often but this just maybe the time.

[Pat Barry]

IMO, the lock miters don't offer any advantage in this application. They do, however, offer up a good chance of a sloppy fit.

I would simply glue up my mitered boards in pairs, making sure to get nice right joints. Them I would joint the two exposed glue faces on each assembly so that they were perfect coplanar. These assemblies would then be glued and clamped like any two boards would be glued up. This approach eliminates any error introduced during the sizing, milling, or assembly processes.
This is a really good method. The major concern is how much material gets lost during the jointing process? Second, I don't have a jointer. I wonder if this could be done with a planer sled? Of course, then I would have to worry about snipe I suppose.

[Steve Jenkins]

I just miter all the pieces and glue them all at the same time using clear packing tape instead of clamps. The tape will stretch and will provide plenty of pressure. It is a long grain joint so you don't need to reinforce it. I wrap the tape near one end and about every 6" down the length.

[Mark Grotenhuis]

I just made some 3X3X36 legs for a bunk bed I am building using a lock miter bit. They came out beautiful but it was really hard to set up. I would recommend cutting your stock 1/16th wider than your finished dimension as your lock miter bit will probably take off 1/32" on each edge. Use steady even pressure and you should be able to make a beautiful joint. A rock solid quality router table is a must. I built Norm's router table, and while it is a nice table, using this lock miter bit made me wish I had a cast iron top with a micro adjust router lift. I made my legs a good inch longer than I needed and cut them off to length after the glue set. I found that was much easier than trying to get them perfectly square during the glue up. Hope this helps!

[John TenEyck]

That's how I do it, too. These tapered porch columns are really just large table legs. As long as your TS can accurately cut 45 degrees with the blade parallel to the fence (ie not a Sears TS) it's easy. Biscuits to keep things aligned makes the glue up go very easily. I used packing tape for clamping pressure and couple of clamps to keep things square.

285430

John

[Alan Schaffter]

Bill, I put a drawing on page 16 of the LMM manual (http://www.infinitytools.com/PDF/Lock%20Miter%20Master%20Manual.pdf) of what I think is the best way to do arts and crafts legs with lock miter joints- at least it has worked for me. Don't alternate, put the same profile on both edges of opposing faces and the other profile on both edges of the remaining faces. That makes it easier to clamp.

This way:

http://www.yodermissionfurniture.com/images/methods/lg/doublelock2.jpg

Not this way:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bSMSIXAxido/SwrFy4-d_qI/AAAAAAAAAGI/gkpnUVMG6EE/s1600/IMG_0345.JPG

[Bill Huber]

I just miter all the pieces and glue them all at the same time using clear packing tape instead of clamps. The tape will stretch and will provide plenty of pressure. It is a long grain joint so you don't need to reinforce it. I wrap the tape near one end and about every 6" down the length.

I am going to give that a try today, I got to thinking and I have done mitered boxes that way and have really nice tight joints that looked great. So all the leg is, is a long box.....

[Bill Huber]

Bill, I put a drawing on page 16 of the LMM manual (http://www.infinitytools.com/PDF/Lock%20Miter%20Master%20Manual.pdf) of what I think is the best way to do arts and crafts legs with lock miter joints- at least it has worked for me. Don't alternate, put the same profile on both edges of opposing faces and the other profile on both edges of the remaining faces. That makes it easier to clamp.



Yes it clamps up much better by doing it that way but I still have one corner that is not as good as the other 3.

I am not sure at this point if it is me and the way I have the bit set up or what. Three of the corners look great and are nice and tight the third one is just not as tight as the others. I don't know if it will matter or not, the leg will be stained so you may not be able to tell it anyway.

The little jig is just awesome, I have used it on some drawers and it is so easy to set the bit and the drawers have all come out great.

It is the upper right corner in this image taken of an off cut.

285480

[johnny means]

Bill, I put a drawing on page 16 of the LMM manual (http://www.infinitytools.com/PDF/Lock%20Miter%20Master%20Manual.pdf) of what I think is the best way to do arts and crafts legs with lock miter joints- at least it has worked for me. Don't alternate, put the same profile on both edges of opposing faces and the other profile on both edges of the remaining faces. That makes it easier to clamp.

This way:

http://www.yodermissionfurniture.com/images/methods/lg/doublelock2.jpg

Not this way:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bSMSIXAxido/SwrFy4-d_qI/AAAAAAAAAGI/gkpnUVMG6EE/s1600/IMG_0345.JPG

I wouldn't consider either of these very good glue ups. The first photo plainly has looser joints on the top right and bottom left. In this application that looseness could very well create the appearance of a crack on the corner of the leg. The problem with the lock miter technique is that it's great in theory, but theory doesn't usually take real life discrepancies into account.

[Mel Fulks]

Guys who have used Alan's setup gauge say its good. The method I described at length works quite well and I have convinced a number of guys in shops that had bought the cutter and were unable to set it up correctly or eliminate tearing off
big pieces of birch ,maple,etc. I always run mine to a slight "flat" at the point, it eliminates snipe and disappears in sanding,that might be what you are seeing in the photograph. I'm lousy at golf but realize some are skilled.The lock mitre really only needs one to follow articulately written steps.

[Tim Bieker]

I made 4 walnut legs for a coffee table except I used splines instead of buscuits. I'm a rookie by the way, but all 4 legs came out perfect first time with easy clamping. My father tried that router bit once and it sits in the router bit drawer. I was rather taken back how easy it was.

Tim

[Larry Edgerton]

.
. I always run mine to a slight "flat" at the point, it eliminates snipe and disappears in sanding,that might be what you are seeing in the photograph. I'm lousy at golf but realize some are skilled.The lock mitre really only needs one to follow articulately written steps.

I do the same. By the time they are sanded out its gone. I usually do not leave a perfectly square edge anyway for several reasons and this helps as well.

This being said it is one of the most fussy cutters to set up and look forward to the day I have a shaper that takes care of that for me. Must resist..........

Larry.

[Bill Huber]

So today I went out to try some different thing, I was going to just cut 45° and glue them up and see how that went. Before I got there I decided to try my other lock miter bit. I have the Infinity that is good for 3/8" to 3/4" and I also have a Freud bit that is good from 1/2" to 1".

I installed the Freud and set it up with the Infinity jig (large one) and cut 4 more boards and they fit together spot on, looked really good. I did hit it on the first shot with the jig, if you have problems in setting up a lock miter bit get the jig, it is great.

So I am not sure if my Infinity bit is off or my setup with that bit was off or that is was just to small, I am using 3/4" stock.
I did notice that with the Infinity bit the part really had to be pushed together but with the Freud they just went together with no real force.

I guess I am just going with the Freud lock miter bit and make the legs, they glue up nice and they look great.

Thanks everyone for your help and replies.

[Alan Schaffter]

The photos of the joints in my previous post were not mine- just two I found with Google.

I am finally getting around to writing a long overdue article for one of the WW mags. A couple pieces of advice concerning lock miters, regardless of the method you use to set up the bit. Make sure the sharp point at the tip of the miter is supported by the outfeed side of the fence (or table) or else a scallop cut will result at the end of the cut. You might want to start with extra long boards. Also, ensure the stock is held firmly against the fence and table- the angled surface of the bit will want to cause the board to lift AND move away from the fence.

The JESSEM roller guides look like they would be ideal for this application. FYI, I've been toying with the idea of designing a very small but powerful, light-weight, and hopefully inexpensive (the hard part!!!!!) stock feeder specifically for router tables. Even the "small" ones (1/8 & 1/4 hp) currently on the market are too big and heavy, and way too expensive. Would anyone consider buying a smaller version?

Here is another lock miter "secret" or more precisely the reason it is hard to set a lock miter bit, especially when you attempt to follow the instructions provided by the bit manufacturers or magazine articles (I was just looking at a magazine article, and just had to shake my head). Those sources suggest a number of techniques, one of which actually uses the profile center point (of course they provided no suggestions how to precisely locate that center nor how to use it to set the fence!).

A key point about all lock miter bits - the bit height and fence position are interdependent- if you change one you effectively change the other!

Articles and instructions often include photos or drawings of misaligned joints and tell you to move the fence in or out OR raise or lower the bit to correct the misalignment (usually in the second ("B") board. Doing so can start you on the path to frustration. Even though you may only be making one small adjustment (to the fence or the bit height) and may be able to make a new "B" board fit the previously cut "A" board, think about the interdependency and about what you have done- you have AUTOMATICALLY changed the setting for any and all "A" boards cut after that! So,when you attempt to make a joint with two new boards, the joint will likely still be misaligned because you changed the setting for the "A" board! If you don't realize what you are doing you may continue to chase a proper setting and may never get a good joint.

The solutions- get a good setup the first time- using a reliable setup jig (plug, plug :) ). If you are using another technique, there are two things you can do: (1) use as many test boards as necessary to get close to a "decent" joint, then cut the "A" profile boards for all joints. Use scraps to fine tune either bit or fence to get a "good" or "perfect" fitting "B" board. Now cut the "B" profiles in all the adjoining boards. After fine tuning never attempt to go back and cut more "A" profiles. (2) If you want to be able to cut either "A" or "B" boards, in any order, you need a perfect setup- always use a completely new set of edges to cut a new set of both "A" and "B" boards, each and every time, you make ANY adjustment and before you test the fit of the joint.

[Mel Fulks]

I had a customer who was self employed stair part salesman. He carried boxes of catalogs and samples. Took orders for custom stuff too. So he bought from a number of shops. First order he gave me was for some box newels,told him I would
lock mitre them. He said "are you talking about using one of those carbide shaper cutters? Every shop I go in has one and
they all say they don't work". I assured him they did work and made a good customer and friend. He told me there was another shop interested in using lock mitre. Asked me if I would help them! I told him I would be delighted to do so. The guy was quite a distance from us and no competition, but I would have helped him anyway. I spoke with the guy on the TELEPHONE for few minutes he understood it all, and was appreciative. So I gave my customer another reliable supplier.
The reason I relate all of this is Alan says he is going to write "a long overdue article" on this subject. In the previous thread he said his set up jig would solve all. What has changed? May I suggest that magazine would be a good place to
advertise ...? I have called my own posts on this subject lengthy, but they are not as lengthy as a magazine article and
require no purchase.

[Alan Schaffter]

I had a customer who was self employed stair part salesman. He carried boxes of catalogs and samples. Took orders for custom stuff too. So he bought from a number of shops. First order he gave me was for some box newels,told him I would
lock mitre them. He said "are you talking about using one of those carbide shaper cutters? Every shop I go in has one and
they all say they don't work". I assured him they did work and made a good customer and friend. He told me there was another shop interested in using lock mitre. Asked me if I would help them! I told him I would be delighted to do so. The guy was quite a distance from us and no competition, but I would have helped him anyway. I spoke with the guy on the TELEPHONE for few minutes he understood it all, and was appreciative. So I gave my customer another reliable supplier.
The reason I relate all of this is Alan says he is going to write "a long overdue article" on this subject. In the previous thread he said his set up jig would solve all. What has changed? May I suggest that magazine would be a good place to
advertise ...? I have called my own posts on this subject lengthy, but they are not as lengthy as a magazine article and
require no purchase.

I'm not sure what you mean when you ask, "What has changed?" My article would be about the joint and the bit, hopefully include a lot of drawings in addition to text, and not be a promotion for or even mention the Lock Miter Master jig- my editor, and most magazine editors I have dealt with don't permit that. I promised the article last year after I read a couple of magazine articles and tips with bad info on the subject. Of course, my byline would likely include my connection to the LMM.