What turning instruction would you find most helpful?

[John Keeton]

With the advent of YouTube, DVDs, one-hour demonstrations, and the like, the world of classroom woodturning instruction has evolved considerably over the past few years. Not only do folks have a broader interest in objects other than bowls, but also the methods of embellishment and adornment seem to change rapidly.

Given what you have experienced in an instructional setting, and what you have not yet been able to experience, I am curious as to what most find appealing. In other words, what type of classroom instruction would be of interest?

I hesitate to do this in the form of a poll, as that would seem to pigeon hole things into just a few categories. I would prefer your comments about what you might find interesting, and more about broader topics, as opposed to "how to turn" a peppermill, for example, since most of those topics can and are covered in many demonstrations and DVDs.

[Rob Miller]

As a novice, the topics that are of most interest to me are wood selection and preparation, as you may have noticed from my other posts. The turning is fun but to me, it is largely something that is learned hands on. That is, how do I proceed from a load of green wood picked up on Craigslist, composed of a variety of odd shapes, degrees of hardness, with checked ends and bark on, to create a selection of good blanks ready to put on the lathe.

[Peter Fabricius]

Hi John,
I think that tool techniques would be very helpful to all novice and intermediate turners.
After I retired in 2006 I was very lucky to receive some new tools, one at a time as Christmas and Birthday presents. I really wanted to learn all about techniques for each and now 8 years later, the learning continues, but I have established good tool handling techniques and it makes this hobby 1000% more enjoyable!
For example the utube demos by Lyle Jamison are fantastic.....
Peter F.

[Roger Chandler]

I do not know what my "status" as far as a turner is..........perhaps "experienced" would be broad enough a characterization yet, would shy away from any term like "expert" which I do not consider myself to be. Although I do have a broad experience with numerous types of forms, I think for my own personal instruction, I would like to explore multi-axis turnings.......especially as it relates to counterbalance and mounting off center forms on the lathe.

I think a whole new genre of forms might be available to me with some learning in this area. I plan to explore some of these on my own when I can get some time..........experiments that will hopefully be safe and allow me acquisition of a new set of skills.

You planning anything like this John? We might have to talk! ;)

[Dave Paine]

Hi John,
I think that tool techniques would be very helpful to all novice and intermediate turners.
For example the utube demos by Lyle Jamison are fantastic.....


+1 for tool techniques. The Lyle Jamieson YouTube videos were excellent. I learned a lot about using my fingernail grind bowl gouges.

Sad that he removed them from YouTube, likely trying to sell DVD's.

[Wally Dickerman]

John, over the past 25 years I have taught a lot of people to turn. Over 500. Mostly beginners. Almost all wanting to learn how turn a bowl. As they advanced many wanted do hollow forms. In all of my hollow form classes they wanted to learn just that...how to turn a HF. In my HF classes I always use dry wood. If we are to turn collars or other embellishments I don't want wood movement.

In my own turnings I still use some of the tools I made myself years ago for hollowing before commercial tools were available. So do my students. Of course we also use more modern tools. We start out with wide openings because they are easier. Also the student can see part of what's happening inside the vessel. (The very small openings many turners make today started out as a "look what I can do" sort of thing). Depending on the turning, often a wider opening is more attractive. My classes often included turning a collar of another wood.

Anything else I can tell you?

[Dale Miner]

Something that is seldom covered in demos is end grain vessels. The tools and techniques for end grain hollowing are different than for cross grain. End grain orientation for certain objects displays the grain to best advantage and seems to be often overlooked.

If you could maybe come up with a method to squeeze a few more hours in the day it would be nice also.

[Paul Williams]

+2, or more, for tool technique. I am basically self taught plus a few dvds and YouTube videos. I can muddle through most turnings, but feel that I would have a lot less tear out, less sanding, and perhaps a better final result if I spent more time on tool presentation and technique. That seems to be harder to learn on your own than how to turn a specific shape.

[Mike Goetzke]

I'm a beginner and learned a lot here, dvd, and youtube. What you don't see a lot of but really made the light bulb light up was when I saw a video (I think Steve from Hurricane tools) that showed two views. One as an observer like most prevent and a second from the turners perspective. This second view really taught me what riding the bevel was. Also, a big key that helped my turning was getting the tools sharpened correctly.

Mike

[Michael Mills]

+1 for tool techniques. The Lyle Jamieson YouTube videos were excellent. I learned a lot about using my fingernail grind bowl gouges.

Sad that he removed them from YouTube, likely trying to sell DVD's.
Are they removed? I just checked for …. “Lyle Jamieson” woodturning…. And 40 came up by Lyle. BTW another +.

I have watched a lot of videos and presenters like Lyle and Stuart Batty answer my questions more to the point and in detail.
http://vimeo.com/woodturning/videos/page:1/sort:alphabetical/format:thumbnail (http://vimeo.com/woodturning/videos/page:1/sort:alphabetical/format:thumbnail)
Turners have different methods and they can all work; i.e. Lyle shows starting with the rest parallel to the bed, Grumbine says to never to this and start perpendicular, Jordan starts at 45*. They all work.
As a couple of examples, many turners mention stance (dancing with the lathe) but it is typically just in passing along with a lot of other topics. Raffan had two segments in his videos just on stance and Batty has three segments in the above link.
Another example would be the tip to align your finger with the tool blade with some cuts with the skew or spindle gouge. It wasn’t until Dave Hout’s video that anyone explained the why and it finally sunk in.
I do admit, sometimes you have to smack me with a 2X4 to get my attention. Excruciating detail works better for me than a casual ten second remark in an hour and half video.

[Steve Doerr]

John,
I'm not sure I completely understand your question, but I will give you my perspective on how I learn best. So, here goes:

1. Demo's--I find them very enjoyable and like going to them and watching them. I always take notes, thinking I will be able to use the information that I have written down when I get back home. What happens is that when I get home, I get back on the treadmill of life and activities and don't really take advantage of what I saw and wrote down. I will say, there are usually one or two things that I remember that I do end up using.

2. DVD's--These I like because I can go back as many times as I want and watch and rewatch what is being demoed. You can go from the screen to the shop and back as many times as you want. The trouble is that you don't always get to see the the exact tool technique or the tool position as closely as you would like and there is no one there to give personal help and instruction.

3. Classroom setting--This is my most productive method. I like this as you are trying new techniques that there is someone there to help you. They can make corrections in what you are doing before it becomes a learned procedure. The only problem with this is that just like in school, you don't truly learn anything permanently in just one two hour or day situation. To truly learn and make it muscle memory it needs to be done on a continuous basis for a given period of time.

4. Personal contact--This is more of an opportunity for people to exchange thoughts and ideas. These thoughts and ideas help move us to a new level. It challenges us to take steps that we would not have done without that exchange. It also is just nice to talk with other that share your own joys and passions.

I don't know if this is what you want, but it's my 2 cents worth. HTH
Steve

[Reed Gray]

I started over 2 years ago to make a bowl turning video. My main complaint with others were that they were focused on 'this is how I turn a bowl', which is fine, but only answers about half of the questions that come up. A big thank you to all who ask questions on the forums. Well, after shooting and editing, with everything included, I had 8 hours of clips. I think I have given up on making a video on it, and will just put it up on You Tube in segments. My original title was/is 'Weapons of Mass Destruction for Bowl Turning and How to Use Them'. There are so many different tools out there from chainsaws, bandsaws, grinders, gouges, scrapers, etc, that most of us have quite a collection. One video only shows you how to use some of them. Tool technique is huge, and while all tool skills are related, many have their own idiot-syncrasies, it is difficult to cover them all. I guess it all relates to 'if you ask 10 different turners a question, you will get 12 or more answers. Oh, yea, and this is just bowl turning......

robo hippy

[John Keeton]

I agree that "tool technique" is a pretty broad category, and it seems there are a world of beginner classes being taught that cover much of this. And, the reality is that we never stop learning different/new tool applications. Additionally, much of that differs so much from person to person, as suggested by Reed.

Perhaps it might be helpful to limit this to intermediate turners, and I am curious about topics such as design, form, proportions, spindle turning, artistic vessels, pedestal/finial application (design, proportions),etc., just to suggest a few. Roger gave a good example in multi-axis turnings.

[Tim Rinehart]

I think sometimes the questions that need explained are the ones that folks don't even think to ask. Sharpening somewhat falls into this category, but workholding techniques, including variations on jam-chucking, donut, and custom jaw fabricating would be useful without even knowing it as a relatively inexperienced turner, though quite honestly even a lot of more experienced turners will find someone holding a piece in a unique way and realize they would benefit from that at times.

[Dave Cullen]

Perhaps it might be helpful to limit this to intermediate turners, and I am curious about topics such as design, form, proportions, spindle turning, artistic vessels, pedestal/finial application (design, proportions),etc., just to suggest a few. Roger gave a good example in multi-axis turnings.

I am that turner. I've been doing spindles off & on for 20 years, though I'm not an expert by any means. I'm just now getting into bowls and faceplate work, and it's a new experience. I think this progression is typical of the turner's education - we start with spindles first. So for me, where I'm at now, a hands-on classroom on bowl turning would make sense. I've watched the videos, and I have one of Richard Raffan's books on my lathe now. But until someone shows me how to use that damn gouge I'm gonna keep making firewood.

The other topics you mentioned - design and form, proportions, etc - are also on my mind and I'll no doubt be asking questions about them here as my bowl skills progress. I'm not sure what the best presentation for teaching them would be though, as that's more about art than turning. I'm a good technician, and I can copy most anything, but I'm not an artist.

I've been watching one of Cindy Drozda's DVDs on finials and on the making of her Finial Star bowl. She does talk about proportions, and I might be able to come close with enough practice. But to be able to "see" a shape and know what it needs like she does is truly art. I dunno if anyone could teach me that.

[Brian Kent]

As a mediumly partially experienced turning hobby-izer (Done a few things dozens of times - but not hundreds - and there are a whole lot of things I have never started trying), the best things I have learned have been on proportion. John Keeton is the one who gave me a lot of personal advice by the Creek and by E-mail.

I would also like thorough instruction on one tool. Maybe the skew or the bowl gouge, spending time and showing grinds and positions and techniques and practicing them.

A third area is in more complex forms, how the parts are assembled together, how to move from paper to form with many parts.

[Reed Gray]

Interesting thing about shapes. I can see bowl shapes easily, but on spindles, especially finials, I am blind. However, the latest cover of the AAW Magazine with the bowl full of finials was very good. Now I have to find time to deviate from normal turning to practice.

robo hippy

[Greg McClurg]

John,

I have only been turning for just over a year on a somewhat limited basis. What would be helpful to me is to see instruction on design, form, proportions, etc. Most importantly thought would be knowing how to determine what is wrong with the piece when I am finished. What I mean by that is I can usually tell something isn't right, but can't always determine what the problem is. For example; does the piece just sit on the table rather than flowing up from the table, is the curve right or is there a flat spot that breaks the flow, why does the piece look so clunky. Sometimes I can identify the problem but most of the time I'm not sure what is wrong. How you teach that I'm not sure.

Greg

[Len Mullin]

John, I've watched a lot of the videos offered on You-Tube, and one of the best presenters in my opinion is Sam Angelo. He seems to explain things better then most, plus, he covers most if not all subjects, and he does it well. If you haven't checked his vids out, maybe you should just to experience how he goes about doing things.
Len

[Paul Williams]

Of the items John mentioned I think I would benefit most from design or form. I tend to borrow heavily from forms that I see here on the creek or in other sources. I don't copy in that I don't take a photo to the lathe. I tend to see something that I like and go to the lathe to make something similar. the point is I don't really know why I like it, or what design elements make it pleasing to the eye. I can follow the golden rule for proportion, and I like smooth curves, but other than that I don't design forms. I would see the instruction being a discussion of what makes a form pleasing to most people and how to carry those ideas into a design or plan that you can turn.

[Bruce Lundgren]

Before seeing this thread I posted a message about my experience at a recent week-long course that John taught. What I found by reading and could relate to about the comments here is the challenge of understanding form and proportion. Also tool presentation was very helpful at the beginning but after a few days at the course I became more comfortable will tool presentation and less anxious that I'd have a big catch. I learned to "commit to the cut" instead of being tentative and affraid of a BiG catch. Once I got past that I was better able to focus on form. What really brought both together for me was when I turned a finial (my first) for my hollow form. It also became obvious going forward that I need to draw-out the design to scale for both the bowl or hollow form before hand to use that as a guide since its hard to do that when the piece is already on the lathe. I'm not sure how a dvd tutorial can convey or show the basic elements of form and proportion that but it would be terrific.

[Bob Bergstrom]

One area I feel is also neglected is positioning the tool rest. It rotates on a x-y-z axis and so many turners either don't realize the rest is in a improper position. The rest is responsible for so many catches and tear out, or poorly cut wood. When positioned properly, one barly needs a second hand on the tool. When not right, we get white knuckled and try to force the tool to follows proper cut.

[Steve Schlumpf]

For me, personally, I would be interested in a class that fine tunes my design abilities when it comes to hollow forms. While I am not an expert, I do consider myself advanced when it comes to what I turn. I feel I have a fairly good concept of form and have no problems hollowing or turning thin but would love to have someone - an actual expert - show/teach what can be done to improve my art and build upon what I have already accomplished. Like I said, that would be interest me.

Also, I have been active here on the Creek for a number of years and there has always been one constant when it comes to turners. When you take away all the tool/lathe/finishing questions, the number one problem turners face (even if they don't realize it...yet) is about form. What works, what doesn't and why. Many folks scream about the constant attaboys given out when it comes to the turnings being posted. Thing is, you have to base honest critique on the abilities of the person requesting the critique... and so, with new turners, all they need at the time is encouragement to continue - to get in more turning time and to develop their turning skills and their sense for form.

Once a person gets to the middle/intermediate level, then form starts to really become important. It still amazes me at how some folks can see form.. and others, no matter how much it is pointed out... can't see it. I think everyone would benefit from a course dealing with form; what works, what doesn't and why. Just my 2 cents...

[Brian Kent]

If I had the time and the gas, I would drive my truck across the country just to listen John Keeton teach about form, if I had a truck!

[Bruce Lundgren]

One area I feel is also neglected is positioning the tool rest. It rotates on a x-y-z axis and so many turners either don't realize the rest is in a improper position. The rest is responsible for so many catches and tear out, or poorly cut wood. When positioned properly, one barly needs a second hand on the tool. When not right, we get white knuckled and try to force the tool to follows proper cut.

Bob makes an excellent point and one that John emphasized time and time again in his class. As a relatively new turner its something I never really thought much about but it makes sense..especially when I worked on the finial.

[Brian Libby]

Jacques Vesery demoed form and proportion at our club last year. Questions from the audience is huge. He could go into greater detail. Form an area that I always struggle with.

[neil mackay]

[QUOTE]Once a person gets to the middle/intermediate level, then form starts to really become important. It still amazes me at how some folks can see form.. and others, no matter how much it is pointed out... can't see it. I think everyone would benefit from a course dealing with form; what works, what doesn't and why. Just my 2 cents...]

I agree in the beginning if I turned anything half decent It was a good day. As for shape and form it can be taught, its all about training the eye for detail, although some folks really struggle with it.
In another life I carved and drew a great deal, so when turning came along, the transition and finding good forms flowed out of this experience and in this regard I have been fortunate.

[Peter Fabricius]

John, you have started a really good thread....
I see a trend here about dividing the turners level of experience and focusing on what is needed at each level.
If a turner is petrified of touching his tools to the wood and getting catches each time he comes to the lathe, there is not much point in discussing design and forms...
For the turners just starting out the teaching of how to use the tools (and tool rest) is very important. Once a comfort level is achieved with the basics of making cuts with a number of different tools (including the SKEW) then there will be interest in and a capability of absorbing the discussions of design.
Well done John, and focusing on the intermediate turners is a great start.
Peter F.

[Lee Koepke]

topics such as design, form, proportions, spindle turning, artistic vessels, pedestal/finial application (design, proportions),etc

Design is intriguing. I am different than others I see because I dont sketch out my plan, maybe because its still new to me, but I tend to design as I turn. Understanding some theories or consequences of free turning may help increase my variety

That above follows with form / proportions. I would love to try HFs but dont have the tools and would certainly want some help getting started. The form/proportions seem much more rewarding with HFs.

Funny it was mentioned being 'blind' to spindles, I get the vision of what I want, but rarely if ever it gets accomplished - nothing balances or stays in proper proportions except my snowmen at Christmas!

It would almost seem unfair for me (or someone like me) to show up and say TEACH ME! but until I narrow it down myself its hard to decide.

[steven carter]

While I would agree with Steve Schlumpf regarding the need for form training, I also would like to be able to find training on embellishments such as inlay of metal leaf and changes in patina.

[Reed Gray]

Bob,
I am still pondering your comment about the tool rest not being positioned correctly as being a huge contributor to catches. It is easy to understand about extending out too far off the rest and you get over powered/out leveraged, and the tool comes out or you dig in. Other than that, to me, it is more in how you present the tool to the wood. The bevel rub makes the leverage point be at the bevel rather than on the tool rest, though the tool rest does hold up the too. A scraping cut tends to be a bit more grabby than a bevel rubbing shear cut. High shear angle makes a cleaner cut than low shear angle. Other than that, being slightly above center or below center doesn't make any huge differences. Now, it can make some differences. Some turners are really persnickety (love that word) about tool rest height. Me, I get it close and angle the tool to compensate for any angle differences I need. I do remember in particular when taking a work shop with Stuart Batty, I would position my tool rest and start to cut, and it seemed like Stuart was continually coming over and adjusting my tool rest to the 'proper' height. Maybe because I have compensated for a 'non perfect' height for so long, it just doesn't make a difference to me. I adjust.

robo hippy

[john snowdon]

Great thread!

As a new turner I have tried YouTube, lurking on the Creek, and several classes. For me, small classes are the best –watch the instructor, do the task, see the result, move to the next step. I still make firewood out of 40% of what I try and while tool technique is certainly one of my weaknesses, form and design is what I wish I could master the most. I believe knowing I have a beautiful plan of exactly what I want to create from the start would make me turn more, leading to an improvement in my technique because the end product would be more artistic than the rather boring bowls and HF I currently make.

I believe Steve Schlumph and John Keeton have produced many of the most beautiful pieces I have seen turned by members of this forum. To see Steve say he wishes he better understood design and form tells me what it must be like to be a true artist.

[Jamie Donaldson]

A great aid for any turner is to develop a design book, with cut-outs from catalogues, magazines, sketches, any variety of sources glued into a notebook or binder for future reference. Study glassware, pottery, any forms that might serve as a model for future turnings, and then when you develop a case of "turner's block" you have a resource to aid in getting your juices flowing again.

[Royce Wallace]

The form seems to be a subject that needs further discussions--I usually suggest a student should turn to art books showing clay works, glass works, showing ancient shapes of jars, bowls, produced by ancient societies, American Indians, and Asiatic societies. Studies of these forms and the discussions will help in learning to design turnings. Another step is to join with a discussion group dedicated to discussion of each piece. My personal activity as a mentor demonstrates how much time is spent in teaching form--such as the general rule of 1/3--2/3 proportion in design of a bowl or closed form. Design seems to be a natural instinct which, can be taught.
A further discussion of this topic would seem to be of some value for the group????

[Bob Bergstrom]

Bob,
I am still pondering your comment about the tool rest not being positioned correctly as being a huge contributor to catches. It is easy to understand about extending out too far off the rest and you get over powered/out leveraged, and the tool comes out or you dig in. Other than that, to me, it is more in how you present the tool to the wood. The bevel rub makes the leverage point be at the bevel rather than on the tool rest, though the tool rest does hold up the too. A scraping cut tends to be a bit more grabby than a bevel rubbing shear cut. High shear angle makes a cleaner cut than low shear angle. Other than that, being slightly above center or below center doesn't make any huge differences. Now, it can make some differences. Some turners are really persnickety (love that word) about tool rest height. Me, I get it close and angle the tool to compensate for any angle differences I need. I do remember in particular when taking a work shop with Stuart Batty, I would position my tool rest and start to cut, and it seemed like Stuart was continually coming over and adjusting my tool rest to the 'proper' height. Maybe because I have compensated for a 'non perfect' height for so long, it just doesn't make a difference to me. I adjust.

robo hippy
Reed I teach twice a week at our local club and I see beginners line up the tool rest parallel to the ways and start to rough out a bowl presenting the gouge perpendicular ti the ways. I've seen some not willing to move the rest from a perpendicular position when trying to form the entire outside curve.
I'm sure you could turn a bowl blind folded with little trouble. I find the easiest way to help beginner is to set them up that the tools will perform reasonably. I would think Richard Raffin could use a skew with the rest in any position. As you said, we all compensate. I'll bet you Batty's dad spanked his hand every time he didn't have the rest right LOL.

[Reed Gray]

Okay, now I understand. Some turners do bowls that way where they make the blank round by trimming up the outside first. Never understood that one. I guess a similar idea is how some turners like and actually prefer the straight tool rest for bowls (no problem, I just hang out farther off the tool rest) to the curved rests. I use curved rests to keep the tool closer to the wood, just less impact and work, not to mention with the proper bowl rests, both inside and outside, you don't have to move the banjo as much.

You are probably right about Allan Batty. His part of the workshop was worth it just for the stories, and he had a lot of them. Unfortunately, he had a stroke and no longer turns.

I think another video clip I need to do is one on catches....

robo hippy

[Thom Sturgill]

John, I would consider myself 'intermediate' ,though I remember when you said you only wanted a lathe to turn some table legs. Though retired, I have not spent the hours to grow past intermediate. I have been to ONE weekend class and ONE all day hands on (David Ellsworth) class and seven or eight symposiums, and innumerable DVDs, videos and magazines. The classes were great in that the demonstrator could then check each of us to insure that we 'got' what was being taught, though more practice after ward was of course needed. Videos (You Tube or DVD) are fine but lack the essential correction of a hands-on course and the inability to answer questions .

Symposiums are great because of the question and answer nature. The exception here was some that were just slide shows - I could probably gotten more from a good magazine article that benefited from good editors. Discussions of form might tend to fit that category if not handled well.

IMHO, there is plenty of available materials on technique, though hands-on training is essential to really learn a new technique. In the long run we tend to blend different ideas to get to a technique that works for us. As a lefty, I am used to adapting.

Form is another BIG issue. Any discussion of form is bound to be example heavy and light on 'how-to'. Trying to teach it in a class-room could be very dry. Embellishment is the same, hands-on is needed to really learn the techniques, but discussion to get an overview. A presentation that might work would be to take a given form and then overlay different treatments, carving, burning, colors, etc to show how the form can be enhanced, and even where some embellishments would not work. This would have to be repeated with a number of different forms. This would be a great use for animation, or a computer program that could be interactive and present the 3-D object while being easily manipulated. Unfortunately, creating such for woodturners is probably a generation away as we need to wait for some of the kids with those skills to become interested in our 'hobby'.

[Prashun Patel]

Hands down, I would like to be taught how to make finishing cuts. I have never been able to go straight to 150 or 220 sanding after the finishing cuts; I always need to start low at 60 or 80. It takes way too long, and has sabotaged my enthusiasm for turning.

Specifically, I always get tearout or unsightly transitions between the end and side grain. I hear many times that people are able to 'spend seconds sanding at each grit'. I'd love to achieve that.

[John Grace]

Everyone has posted very good comments but I would offer the following...first and foremost, really learn and understand how to turn safely and protect yourself while doing so.

First...face-shield and respirator. You can spend crazy money on both but you can get a suitable $25 shield and $10 respirator from Amazon to start with.

Second...pay particular attention to and really learn how to properly mount your wood to your lathe. I know it seems obvious but that truly is where the 'rubber meets the road' in turning.

Third...I'd echo what others have said. Whatever turning tools you prefer, remember the old adage that the most dangerous knife is a dull knife. Sharp tools need less pressure and are less likely to catch or grab.

Forth...Again relative to what others have said, consider how fortunate we all are with a platform like YouTube from which to learn. We're not all so fortunate as to be near a turning club...this is the next best thing.

Good luck and safe turnings...John

[Stan Calow]

Beginner here. I agree with Rob Miller's comment. I've gone through a lot of books and a few videos, but nothing covers the selection and preparation of wood adequately in my opinion.

[Bob Bergstrom]

Hands down, I would like to be taught how to make finishing cuts. I have never been able to go straight to 150 or 220 sanding after the finishing cuts; I always need to start low at 60 or 80. It takes way too long, and has sabotaged my enthusiasm for turning.

Specifically, I always get tearout or unsightly transitions between the end and side grain. I hear many times that people are able to 'spend seconds sanding at each grit'. I'd love to achieve that.

Pashum,
I have been turning 40 plus years and still find more times than not I need to start with 80 grit. Some woods, it may only be a few ripples and some it would have been better to start with 60 grit. One major cause of tear out is not giving the tool ample time to make a clean cut. Realize the foot speed of the bowl is slowing down as the circumference is getting smaller. If the gouge is moving across the bowl surface at the same rate as it was at the rim, it will be more likely to tear fibers in that vital transition area near the bottom. One can either speed up the lathe or slow down the movement of the tool. Some pros turn at a high rate, some with patience, just let the tool dictate the rate of feed. It many aspects of woodworking we hear give the tool time to cut. It applies here also.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

I'm an intermediate turner - our club had a demo by Don Derry the other night. While his demo was freehand turning a sphere and an egg form, his talk was really based on using the concepts of neuro plasticity in your turning - training your brain to recognize where your next cut needs to be to achieve the form you're working on. An 'Ask and Answer' routine that allows your skills to create - "All you do is make conscious distinction about the form and then decide how to improve it with your skill set, one cut at a time. Next thing you know, you have made a masterpiece."
While I've been to many symposiums and sat through countless demos on everything from technique to form, I can't remember one that has inspired me as much as the simple approach Don Derry presented on Thursday night. Train your brain to use the tools and techniques you already have to achieve what you want from that piece of wood.

[Reed Gray]

Prashun,
Most of the time I start sanding at 100 or 120 grit, but a number of times I have to start with 80. Mike Mahoney said he always starts with 80 grit. The deciding factor for me is that some times it takes more to remove the 80 grit scratches than it does to spend a little time with 100 grit. For some reason, and I have never figured it out, with my green turned bowls, I have to start with coarser grits than with my warped bowls. Maybe the drying/shrinking/warping makes any little mistake bigger. With dried wood, which I almost never use for bowls, I can start at higher grits. Taming tear out means sharp tools, and a high shear angle. Some times it takes adding water or oil to the surface to tame the tear out as some woods just tear more than others. Taming the bumps is about moving with the tool. Hold the the tool as you would a bird. Too tight and you kill it, too loose and it flies away (from an old black and white movie about Cyrano de Bergerac, famous swordsman and ladies man). Learning to move with the tool and using your whole body is a huge factor as it really smooths out the cuts. Shear scrapes remove a lot of the tiny bumps, and tool marks, then you sand. The outside of a bowl is pretty simple as you can see everything as you do it. On the inside, it is a lot more difficult. You can see a little, but have to use your fingers to feel for any tiny bumps. Again, I get it close with the gouge, then use a shear scrape to fine tune it. Not that I am not doing it production wise, I am spending a lot more time trying to get a perfect off the tool finish. Ain't going to happen, but I am getting better. Far less of the washboard syndrome. Bowls I am fine with most of the time. With boxes, a lot of the time I can start at 180 or 220. With spindles, 120 to 180. Rolling pins, I start at 80 on a piece of plywood so I can get it dead flat. With hollow forms, most of the time in the 120 to 180 range. I probably could start at finer grits a lot of the time, but I would spend more time with the finer grit than I would if I stepped down one grit, then went back up. I do spend more time with 100 and 120 grit than I do with 220, 320, and 400 combined.

robo hippy

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks, Reed and Bob. I think the subtlety involved in these finishing cuts is what makes it my choice for a good intermediate turning class topic. Seeing you advanced guys in action would really help...

[Reed Gray]

Well, I will be in Phoenix in the vendor area, and hopefully out in Pittsburgh nest year.

robo hippy

[Bill Wyko]

Get rid of all your safety glasses & use a face shield. All the glasses in the world won't help if a log takes your teeth out. LOL.

[John Keeton]

Thanks for all the comments. Sounds like design, form and proportion are frequently mentioned topics. That is kind of what I expected. It seems that those topics are rarely covered in demos, probably for lack of time, and are best addressed in a setting where there is more time and opportunities for one on one between the instructor and student.

I have made note of other comments as well, and will incorporate several.

Thanks again!

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks for all the comments. Sounds like design, form and proportion are frequently mentioned topics. That is kind of what I expected. It seems that those topics are rarely covered in demos, probably for lack of time, and are best addressed in a setting where there is more time and opportunities for one on one between the instructor and student.

I have made note of other comments as well, and will incorporate several.

Thanks again!

John............perhaps you should think about a finishing class as well. Showing your wet sanding techniques and your use of BLO and some of the others you use. To me that would be a great class and one that would serve most turners well! If I were near enough.......I would take a class like that from you! ;)

[Brian Kent]

I'm pretty sure you should go on tour, John, so we can take your classes in every state, plus England and Australia and wherever else we live.

[John Keeton]

I'm pretty sure you should go on tour, John, so we can take your classes in every state, plus England and Australia and wherever else we live.Now, that is funny!!