Clear Epoxy recommendations -- what's your preference?

[Rob Miller]

I'm wondering what you all prefer to use when you need clear epoxy resin for stabilizing punky wood. This looks like it may be a good choice: http://www.bestbartopepoxy.com/epoxy/ What other products do you like, and why?

Thanks!
Rob

[Tim Leiter]

I have never heard of anyone stabilizing wood with epoxy glue. But others will post on their experiences.
Tim.

[Rob Miller]

I have never heard of anyone stabilizing wood with epoxy glue. But others will post on their experiences.
Tim.

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere, and been advised here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?215459-What-to-do-with-punky-wood), to use clear epoxy thinned with acetone to harden punky wood. Now I'm wondering about the best product.

[John Keeton]

Rob, if you are intent on saving some of this wood, perhaps this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?173178-Extreme-Tearout-Issue) will provide a quicker, cheaper alternative for you.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Rob: You might want to check with the bar top epoxy mfg to see about thinning it with acetone or some other thinner. That stuff is much to thick to use out of the bottle for stabilizing punky wood. It would not soak it. You may want to look at the Minwax wood hardener. I've not used it, but reports on forums have seemed to be good.

[Rob Miller]

Rob, if you are intent on saving some of this wood, perhaps this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?173178-Extreme-Tearout-Issue) will provide a quicker, cheaper alternative for you.

Thanks, John. The water solubility of white glue makes me think epoxy would be a better solution. Clearly it would need to be thinned. The expense of the epoxy pretty much dictates that it would have to be a pretty good piece of wood to make it worthwhile. I wouldn't say I'm intent on this course of action. Just want to understand all of the variables and get an idea of the cost before embarking on that path. There's enough good wood in my shop there's no need to bother with the soft stuff, but the areas that are soft are some of the biggest pieces, and the prettiest. I wanted to see if I could find a piece with interesting spalting because I like the look of the spalted stuff -- it's attractive. My skills aren't well developed enough to justify making a big expenditure on a single piece of wood, though, and there's lots more wood around than I've got time to turn.

[John Keeton]

The water solubility of white glue makes me think epoxy would be a better solution.Actually, I would think it to be the reverse. Your punky wood is that way because it contains moisture. Rot cannot happen in a dry piece of wood, as the organisms require moisture. In either situation - epoxy or glue - one should be working with a rough turned piece. It seems improbable that one could infuse a large chunk of unturned wood without commercial grade equipment - if even then. The epoxy would not bind with the internal moisture, and merely seal it in, whereas the glue, in a soaking situation, would actually become somewhat of a solution with the existing moisture. I think that is what makes it so attractive.

Keep in mind that Wally Dickerman has used this method for years. Wally has been turning for well over 70 years, producing gallery quality work - and, still going strong! He may well have forgotten more than most of us will learn in a lifetime.

[Rob Miller]

That clears things up a bit for me. So, you'd rough-turn the punky wood then treat it? I thought the idea was to solidify the wood so that it COULD be turned. Won't punky wood go to pieces if you try to turn it that way?

[Rob Miller]

In either situation - epoxy or glue - one should be working with a rough turned piece.

Does the same hold true with boiling? Would you rough turn before boiling or would you want to boil the blank before starting turning?

[John Keeton]

That clears things up a bit for me. So, you'd rough-turn the punky wood then treat it? I thought the idea was to solidify the wood so that it COULD be turned. Won't punky wood go to pieces if you try to turn it that way?Rob, there is a marked difference between rotten wood and punky wood. Punky usually denotes wood that produces a lot of tear out because it tends to crumble off the piece rather than cut. However, rotten wood is unsafe to turn, won't hold a tenon or recess, nor screws for a faceplate, and should be discarded. If you can't get a piece rough turned safely, IMO it should not be attempted and is not worthy of consideration. The idea behind the glue application, or for that matter, the epoxy, is to get a piece of wood to the point where one can get a finish cut on it and get it sanded to a suitable surface.

On the boiling, I have never done that, so I can't speak to that. However, from what I understand, it is done prior to turning, but has nothing to do with "solidifying" wood, but more to do with stabilizing it from movement and reducing checking.

[Rob Miller]

On the boiling, I have never done that, so I can't speak to that. However, from what I understand, it is done prior to turning, but has nothing to do with "solidifying" wood, but more to do with stabilizing it from movement and reducing checking.

Yes, it's supposed to burst the cells to release the water, thus removing the pressure and allowing speedier drying. At least that's my understanding. I plan to try it out shortly.

[Rob Miller]

Rob, there is a marked difference between rotten wood and punky wood. Punky usually denotes wood that produces a lot of tear out because it tends to crumble off the piece rather than cut. However, rotten wood is unsafe to turn, won't hold a tenon or recess, nor screws for a faceplate, and should be discarded.

So, hypothetically, if you have a large chunk of wood with substantial areas of both solid and rotten wood, would you typically try to cut off the rotten section or would you try to dig it out with a crowbar or similar until you're down to the solid part? Clearly, rotting doesn't progress in a uniform pattern so the latter seems a reasonable method of finding where the rot ends and the good wood starts.

[John Keeton]

Rob, for me, it would have to be spectacular wood to go to that effort. If the good wood could be isolated with a chainsaw cut or bandsaw cut, I might consider it, but even then - it would need to be special. Run of the mill wood is too available to have to go to that trouble. Now, in AZ, things may be different.

[Rob Miller]

Not sure where you are, but in Arizona it is a little different. We get a lot of mesquite (mostly smaller pieces) but large diameter hardwood is fairly limited although stuff does turn up on CL. The hickory I got is a fairly rare find here, as it's not indigenous and isn't generally a desert plant, and the grain is attractive. I don't want to waste it, but then I won't go to too much expense or trouble over it either.

[robert baccus]

Rob, I have done dozens of spalt with the epoxy thing. Poly. resin (think fiberglass) works just as well if you dodge the colored stuff. In the above I mentioned soaking the Roughed our piece by removing everything you can safely can first. I assumed you would dry it out before doing anything to it. Rotten wood seldom cracks. Where the wood is the punkiest is where it will soak in very deeply--very little on solid wood. This is for the really pretty soft pieces--on slightly punky wood a quick soak in thinned lacquer or shellac will often do the job as well. The epoxy for an average piece may run 3$ and only takes overnite. Buy the stuff by the gallon--it will last for years without hardening. This is the same stuff used for stabilizing wood only there they force thick resins in that fill the pores. The thinned stuff will only harden in the cell cell walls and leave the pores empty which is why it looks like virgin wood and not a block of plastic. Both have their places in this crazy hobby. To hold soft wood CA the blank to a glueblock and use the tail stock. This method also makes soft palmwood turnable realizing there are many species and varying hardness in palms.

[Rob Miller]

Rob, I have done dozens of spalt with the epoxy thing. Poly. resin (think fiberglass) works just as well if you dodge the colored stuff. In the above I mentioned soaking the Roughed our piece by removing everything you can safely can first. I assumed you would dry it out before doing anything to it. Rotten wood seldom cracks. Where the wood is the punkiest is where it will soak in very deeply--very little on solid wood. This is for the really pretty soft pieces--on slightly punky wood a quick soak in thinned lacquer or shellac will often do the job as well. The epoxy for an average piece may run 3$ and only takes overnite. Buy the stuff by the gallon--it will last for years without hardening. This is the same stuff used for stabilizing wood only there they force thick resins in that fill the pores. The thinned stuff will only harden in the cell cell walls and leave the pores empty which is why it looks like virgin wood and not a block of plastic. Both have their places in this crazy hobby. To hold soft wood CA the blank to a glueblock and use the tail stock. This method also makes soft palmwood turnable realizing there are many species and varying hardness in palms.

Thanks for your comments, Robert. So, from what I'm getting from you, the following procedure should work well:


Rough turn the punky green blank.
Boil the rough turned object.
Wrap in paper and allow to dry.
Soak the turning in clear epoxy thinned with acetone and allow to harden.
Finish the turning.


How much epoxy would you mix up for an average sized object? Also, what brand of epoxy do you like and where's the best place to obtain it?

[robert baccus]

I would skip step 2. Boiling is a pain and warping/splitting are not a problem with most spalted woods. Dryish is fine here and epoxy or poly resins are in marine stores, Lowees and on google., This is neither complicated or expensive.

[robert baccus]

ob, I would skip the boiling thing--it's complicating a simple thing. Drying is not critical--below 30%. Resins can be found at boat places, lowees and on google. A 6" bowl would probably require a 1/2 pint of thinned resin. This is not a complicated or expensive thing or I would not do it. Really hard to screwup.

[william biba]

Smiths Cold CPES Epoxy. I have used this to stabilize rotted wood on restoration projects and it works very well.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

Does the same hold true with boiling? Would you rough turn before boiling or would you want to boil the blank before starting turning?
Rob - you rough out your blank, then boil then allow to dry before finish turning. I've never heard that it bursts the cells releasing the water, but that it helps relieve internal stresses in the wood reducing the tendencies of some woods like madrone to warp and crack while drying. I use it whenever I've got madrone or fruitwoods to turn and whenever the wood is known to move significantly when drying roughouts. Works great, I don't have any numbers to support, but many blanks that would windup firewood are saved...

[robert baccus]

All right--this was done after my first vicoden.

[David Gilbert]

There is a problem with thinning your epoxy with acetone. It does thin it but it also generates a stronger yellow color. On walnut this wouldn't be a problem but on maple it would probably be objectionable. Also thinned epoxy isn't as strong as unthinned but for our application this probably isn't very important.

A way to help the epoxy fill the wood is to heat the wood up a bit before you coat it with epoxy. Heating the epoxy first will only speed the curing of the epoxy. If you go to the West epoxy website there are a couple of articles that talk about using epoxy to fill rotten wood. Here is a link: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/thinning-west-system-epoxy/

And a quote from their article: "With wood, the best method of thinning epoxy with heat is to warm the wood and have the resin and hardener at room temperature. Mix the components and apply the mixture to the warm wood surface. Remove the heat source just before the epoxy is applied. When the epoxy mixture comes in contact with the warm wood, it gets warm and its viscosity becomes lower. As the temperature of the wood falls, the thin epoxy is drawn in deeply before it begins to gel. By heating the substrate instead of the components, you get the best of both worlds—low viscosity epoxy on the work surface and longer working time in the mixing pot."

Cheers,
David

[robert baccus]

All good info.. I forgot to mention temperature--all these 2 part resins speed up curing greatly generating much heat. You see the circle. Usually a problem when dealing with larger volumes on fiberglas work. I have several cans full of clear hard stuff holding a paint brush handle permanently in the air. It's naver been a problem with small amounts especially thinned. Thinning gives you several hours to soak in--hence the plastic bag which prevents the solvents from leaving. This method soaks up in the cell walls and not in the pores making it look the same as the good wood. Looks like hell when unbagged but cuts and looks like the same wood. Sold one like this(an urn for several K 2 days ago) Forgot to mention it sands and finishes like real wood for lacquer finishes. No sanding gummies or discoloration.

[Rob Miller]

All good info.. I forgot to mention temperature--all these 2 part resins speed up curing greatly generating much heat. You see the circle. Usually a problem when dealing with larger volumes on fiberglas work. I have several cans full of clear hard stuff holding a paint brush handle permanently in the air. It's naver been a problem with small amounts especially thinned. Thinning gives you several hours to soak in--hence the plastic bag which prevents the solvents from leaving. This method soaks up in the cell walls and not in the pores making it look the same as the good wood. Looks like hell when unbagged but cuts and looks like the same wood. Sold one like this(an urn for several K 2 days ago) Forgot to mention it sands and finishes like real wood for lacquer finishes. No sanding gummies or discoloration.

So, the bag doesn't stick to the resin?

[robert baccus]

Roger that--Vinyl bags only.