The Woodwright Shop quality

[Andrew Fleck]

So recently I have been watching some episodes of The Woodwright Shop on PBS since I started becoming more interested in hand tools. I have noticed that on a lot of the furniture that he makes the quality seems to miss the mark a little bit (gaps in miters, blow out, etc.) I'm not saying for a minute that I can do a better job with hand tools, but I didn't just start making furniture. It seems at least to me that he kind of just throws it together quickly. Maybe it is just to highlight the technique rather than the furniture. Has anybody else noticed this? Maybe I am just being overly critical.

[Ryan Baker]

I think you need to cut Roy a little slack there. He is attempting to demonstrate the construction techniques of (usually) an entire project in about 20 minutes of program time. Not too many people are going to knock out perfect joints when going that fast. He is trying to demonstrate the technique more than the result, and keep things moving to avoid becoming boring to a general audience. And his style tends toward the rustic side to start with.

Ask yourself whether you can take a technique he has shown and use it yourself to produce good quality results. If so, then his approach was successful and it doesn't matter the roughness of the on-air sample pieces.

Roy is sort-of the hand-tool equivalent of what Norm did in the power tool world. Neither would be accused of fine woodworking, but they have both gone a long way to bring their techniques to the masses.

[Mel Fulks]

Nothing wrong in noticing the flaws and resolving to make your own work better. I think the show's grant is based on traditional every day objects and the proper period context. Few pieces of antique middle class furniture are flawless. Sometimes he's making a rake or shovel! Never seen a perfect MODERN shovel....or one with a good wooden handle.

[Andrew Fleck]

I'm not trying to knock Roy, but a lot of the furniture he starts his show with is already made. I'm not talking about the joints he demonstrates on camera.

I do like most of his shows and do learn things from him. I'm kind of a perfectionist so that's not helping anything either.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Much of what displayed at the beginning is only dry-fitted and not glued/final assembled.

[Daniel Hartmann]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that show is filmed in one long take. Things are pre-made to a point so they can show the crucial steps in 27 mins.

[John Crawford]

Based on Roy's comments, I always assume that the "already made" furniture is made by him, assistants, and students in preparation for the 30 min show. Is that true?

As a teacher myself (not woodworking!) I think his shows and presentations are well thought out; he has his eye on the clock, knows what he needs to demonstrate in a time period, and almost always gets it done, sometimes bleeding in the process. He regularly jokes about speed and errors, so I don't think he would disagree with you there.

It sometimes takes me 30 minutes just to find a pencil, much less lead someone through the thought process of making a piece of furniture.

[Winton Applegate]

Yes I have noticed the same thing.
As others point out he is working in real time and has hardly any time.

I think the thing to know, in my opinion, is that he is excited about the whole, hand tool / from tree to finished project aspect. Kind of a conveyer of how THEY did it back when.

That is his thing. Not fine cabinetry.
You want perfection and fast watch Frank Klausz. But he takes longer than a few minutes though.

I don't know. I watched Roy do a bridal joint yesterday on a saw sharpening pony.

He said "you need to trim the cheeks to fit the gap in the mating board" . . . roughly that was what he was saying. Then he takes a chisel and goes at it like he had no idea and it didn't fit.
BUT
he was out of time and needed to move on.
If he would have had a few more minutes he might have grabbed a rabbet block plane or a skew block or a shoulder plane or a router plane to trim the cheeks nice.

Or have clamped the board so he could have used his chisel in a more precise manner.

Right at the end, the music was playing, he did a real nice job with a large bit in a brace cutting the arch for the saw handle where the bit had to be really sharp so it could over lap the side of the work and still cut a smooth arch. He did good there.

I say . . . read his books, listen to what he tells you because he DOES KNOW what he is talking about and then watch the shows for some light entertainment and to see the guests he has on and just relax about the whole precision thing because it is what it is.

PS: It only takes reading what he has to say about the finer aspects of making draw bore pegs ("trunnels") for post and beam construction etc., to realize he is the real deal.

[Kees Heiden]

When you watch a TV show, any TV show, alwas remember that it is TV, not real life.

Roy is plenty enjoyable though. Something you can't say about most TV shows.

[David Weaver]

Roy is an entertainer and a housewright, and not a cabinetmaker. You get what you get. I'd suspect if george did a show on precise work, a lot of non-woodworkers wouldn't be able to stand it and a lot of woodworkers would think he was arrogant just because he has the discernment to know and do fine work and appreciate little else.

I'll bet a very large percentage of Roy's audience is non-woodworkers, and the reality is that he has to entertain them, too.

I don't generally watch the show, but I do enjoy it when he has super craftsmen on, like Peter Ross or someone else like that, because they do fine work on the show.

One of the things that irks me about display of techniques, and this isn't limited to roy, but stuff like a video of cutting a rabbet with a chisel (on youtube) or other such things that fly across youtubes "recommended"
things for me to watch - the work is done in white pine. And often very low density white pine. I don't want to see that, I want to see half as much of the work accomplished instead in a subject wood I'd actually use a lot of.

roy uses a lot of pine, too, but I usually only keep the channel on his show if I like the guest, not because i have a problem with roy, but just because the kind of stuff he's working on by himself isn't something I'd want to do.

I wonder when he's going to do a show on sharpening stones and straight razor shaving? :)

[Daniel Rode]

Years ago when I was just getting into wood working, I watched shows like TNYW. I watched every episode and recorded some to review later (on VHS tape!). I always struggled just getting through an episode of the Woodright's shop. It seemed like he was making things I didn't want or need and using tools and techniques that were totally foreign to me. I wanted to make a table or a book case, how was using a draw knife and a pedal powered lathe going to help with that? Moreover, the results always seemed crude to me. Norm was on a schedule and his stuff looked precise to me.

I appreciate the show more now but I still only watch excerpts to see something specific. I appreciate Roy far more that I do the show.

[Judson Green]

I appreciate his dry humor and frequent bloodletting. He talks so fast and so much, trying get it all in, sometimes I think he's gonna pass out and the whole time dripping in sweet.

He's cool in my book.

[george wilson]

It is not easy working in front of a camera. The lights are very hot,and you are under pressure. When we made my film,I was running sweat inside my shirt,working in front of a fireplace,with several hot lights in front of me. A wiglet was pinned into what seemed like the back of my skull. The whole thing was VERY uncomfortable,and it went on for months during the Winter season.

I had to keep everything very organized,because when there was a pause,several camera crew were standing around with nothing to do. The film was very costly to make already.

So,I can appreciate the pressure of putting together a weekly show. And,it IS filmed in 1 take.

There are some problems with the show that I won't get into now. I would be called arrogant by Roy's followers.

[David Weaver]

George, do you agree that it's made a little more hokey to try to draw in non-woodworkers and keep them tuned in?

I think that's a large part of it - if you made something look hard or say you had to do it a few dozen times before you'd get something acceptable, the group of folks who likes to sit around and watch other people do things and think "I could do that!" but not ever actually do any of the things they watch...they'd go watch something else that seemed more attainable.

[george wilson]

I think that Roy draws people by making it look like they could do it too,yes. It has served him well. Simple tools,a lathe they could make,etc..

[Judson Green]

Didn't Roy early on want to be an actor? Didn't he go to school for that?

[Tom Vanzant]

David, Roy finds sharp edges and splinters on a regular basis. Have you ever seen Him when he did not have at least one band-aid? Let's not encourage him towards straight razors.

[Tom M King]

Didn't Roy early on want to be an actor? Didn't he go to school for that?

I don't know if he went to school for acting. He could have easily pursued it.

When I first met him in the mid 1970s, just before he was graduating, he was living in Hillsborough, NC, teaching a class in his backyard to a group of students building shave horses, and the house was full of a lot of the tools you still see in the TV show.

I just happened to be walking by the house and walked up to ask what they were going to do with so many shave horses. We spent a good while looking over the tools he had, and he even put me on the spring pole lathe. I haven't seen him since.

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

Roy was indeed a theater major as an undergrad at UNC Chapel Hill, and went to CO to start a theater troupe with his wife, Jane. But here's the perhaps more surprising thing – after moving back to NC, he studied forestry and environmental science as an MA student at Duke, where he did his thesis on muscle-powered woodworking (and a show was born...). Chris Schwarz wrote a great feature on Roy in the Nov 11 issue of PWM. I've seen Roy's non-TV show work up close; he's quite good, even if that doesn't always come through in the 22 minutes of one-take filming (and I know from experience that he is excellent at playing the fool).

[David Weaver]

David, Roy finds sharp edges and splinters on a regular basis. Have you ever seen Him when he did not have at least one band-aid? Let's not encourage him towards straight razors.

It's a good match, then. It's hard to cut yourself that bad with a straight razor. Your reflexes work pretty well when the nick happens on your face instead of your fingers, even if you don't consciously think of it. I would much rather nick myself with a straight razor than a chisel - chisels are usually moving with a lot of force.

Those nicks would make for bad TV, though! It's not good to learn shaving with a straight razor the day before a public appearance unless you have a lot of cats and can make a good cover-up excuse.

[Jim Koepke]

(and I know from experience that he is excellent at playing the fool)

Thanks for saying this Megan. Every time he has a professional on the show he turns into a "know nothing." It keeps the guest talking and explaining more.

It seems he projects the feeling of, "if a bumbling goof like me can do it so can you."

jtk

[Pedro Reyes]

I love his shows, and even watch them again and again, they are for me "entertainment" first education next. If you had a show with David Charlesworth it would be the complete opposite, (and I would still watch ;-) but for me, even as a kid it spawned my interest in not only woodworking, but trying to do stuff with my hands, and that has more value to me than seeing a perfectly cut dovetail.

As a counter example I offer Norm, who can get engaged (as a novice) if you don't own but a jigsaw, drill and a couple of chisels? At least with Roy the project seemed doable, that was engaging, Norm was like "what?!?! I need a 20" planer, $%^# this"

Pedro

[Zach Dillinger]

I have tried to do woodworking on camera exactly once... and I made such a hash of it that I haven't tried since. Looking like a complete fool while doing things I've done a million times. Put me in front of 30 actual people, no problem. Public speaking is fun! But don't ask me to be on camera... Anyone who can be so wonderful on camera (like Roy) has my respect.

[David Weaver]

I love his shows, and even watch them again and again, they are for me "entertainment" first education next. If you had a show with David Charlesworth it would be the complete opposite, (and I would still watch ;-) but for me, even as a kid it spawned my interest in not only woodworking, but trying to do stuff with my hands, and that has more value to me than seeing a perfectly cut dovetail.

As a counter example I offer Norm, who can get engaged (as a novice) if you don't own but a jigsaw, drill and a couple of chisels? At least with Roy the project seemed doable, that was engaging, Norm was like "what?!?! I need a 20" planer, $%^# this"

Pedro

When I first started woodworking, the first video I watched was david charlesworth's video. I borrowed it from a friend of mine, and eventually the two of us in combination bought all of the DVDs and watched them. His wife would say "oh no, you're watching Jesus in monotone again. I'm going to fall asleep!!"

haha.

I always liked David's videos because he's methodical, and if you do what he does, you get the same result, and it's precise. You can decide from there if you need less precision and more speed. There's a clean crisp parsimonious feel about the content and delivery (there's nobody playing the fool or any of that annoying stuff, and no circus atmosphere stuff). Our wives didn't love the videos as much as we did, though.

[Pedro Reyes]

When I first started woodworking, the first video I watched was david charlesworth's video. I borrowed it from a friend of mine, and eventually the two of us in combination bought all of the DVDs and watched them. His wife would say "oh no, you're watching Jesus in monotone again. I'm going to fall asleep!!"

haha.

I always liked David's videos because he's methodical, and if you do what he does, you get the same result, and it's precise. You can decide from there if you need less precision and more speed. There's a clean crisp parsimonious feel about the content and delivery (there's nobody playing the fool or any of that annoying stuff, and no circus atmosphere stuff). Our wives didn't love the videos as much as we did, though.

haha at your wife's assessment, spot on.

I have his books and like them, he is as you say methodical, but I think that if both were presenting at the same time, more people would gather around Roy, at least more "newbies", and that has some value. While we are on the subject, I enjoy Jim Kingshot's (sp?) videos a lot, wish there were more out there.

/p

[Gary Herrmann]

Early in my career I had to go to a week long train the trainer class. They video taped us and made us watch. Gave us a topic to create materials for, then picked that apart.

Watching yourself on camera is cringworthy, but it's an excellent teaching tool. To do it all the time takes some talent.

I think Roy appeals to Neanders, general WWers, turners, tool pigs, non woodworkers and others. I've got 10 seasons on DVD and one of his books.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Along the lines of what Gary, said try teaching. If you take it seriously, nothing will improve your personal performance more than having to think, analyze, plan out, practice, and then actually teach a class. Years ago when attending a train the trainer class for sea kayaking we had to plan and execute a demo. I did not take it seriously enough, was ill prepared, and tried to wing it. I was excoriated, lambasted, and bluntly told by the instructor trainer why my performance was pathetic and inadequate. The critique by the other class members wasn't gentle either. I learned a painful lesson and never put myself in an unprepared position again. Teaching forces you to think out methodology, the reasoning behind your approach to a particular operation, and the practice physically helps to advance your skill level.

On the subject or Roy though there is a lot more there than what you see. He is a very well read and educated person with a lot more subtle side to him than just the public persona he presents.

[Bob Lang]

Gotcha Megan -- November 2012 issue.

Bob Lang

[robert dankert]

. . . . Maybe I am just being overly critical.

I think so, but I probably just have different expectations.

If you like more precision you may like this set of videos by Curtis Buchanan making a comb back windsor chair:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL_KlogKd1xf-P7ObrjmBHEWgiZAl37lx

[Glenn Samuels]

I've been to Roy's school twice in Pittsboro, NC. He is an excellent instructor who is happy to give encouragement to some of us new neanderthals. I agree with others that he can do very detailed work when he has the time. A 20 minute show just doesn't give him enough time. On top of all the education received through his school, he is always entertaining.

[Pat Barry]

Doing a 20 minute show in what seems to be one take and to actually produce something is amazing. I love watching his shows except for when the CHris Schwartz shows up - he is the annoying one IMO. If it weren't for Roy I'd be like Norm. Roy adds balance to my woodworking

[Winton Applegate]

When you watch a TV show, any TV show, alwas remember that it is TV, not real life.

What about the Original Star Trek ?
Don't tell me that's not real !
Huh ? Huh ?
Yah seeeeeee.
I got you there. :) :D ;)

[harry strasil]

FWIW dept. I watch Roy when I can, I actually learn from his mistakes as well as my own. As one who has done both Hand tool WWing and Blacksmithing demos for the public and other Smiths and WWers, and both trades while before cameras. I have found out that I do better if I just pretend the cameras are not rolling and I just do what I usually do. At most of the Living History and other shows, basically what they want is for you to talk intelligently to the people and explain things if asked. I always learn something from the older generation, who after standing for awhile and watching me and finding out I know what I am talking about will open up and explain to me how their father or grandfather etc. did something.

[Winton Applegate]

Pedro,


Jim Kingshot's (sp?) videos a lot, wish there were more out there.


Here, here !
Me too !


I really enjoy Norm a lot. his rhythm and over all presentation is really great. PROFESSIONAL !


Of course I always wished he would do more hand tool stuff and realize he can but that is not his TV thing.


Heck I wouldn't even know about Winterthur if it wasn't for Norm and his micro field trips during the show.


He even showed the Studdly tool chest in one of his micro field trips.


I really like Norm and recommend his little book "measure twice cut once". I think it was from him I learn the WHOLE saying :


Think THRICE, measure TWICE, cut ONCE.


I have read a ton of David Charlesworth, books and mags, but never seen a vid.
Something to look forward to sounds like. Thanks for reminding me.

[John Coloccia]

I've not met Roy or seen any of his actual work in person. However, Frank Klausz respects Roy's work. That's good enough for me.

[Adam Petersen]

I personally enjoy watching his show. I like the older episodes more than the recent ones and, unfortunately, didn't get to see too many as I'm only 35 and my interest in woodworking didn't start until about 8 years ago. My hand tool specific journey didn't start until about 3 years ago.

That being said, I'm sure that Roy's contribution to modern hand tool woodworking and history can be appreciated by everyone. He probably works in the pine to save money. I've often thought that looks easy in pine, but he's also on a PBS channel. I'm guessing there's a budget. He's done a lot to improve the knowledge of woodworking and hand tools though, wouldn't you say?

I think some of my favorite episodes are when he tours places. Was it Thomas Jefferson's home that he toured during some renovation? Those episodes are very interesting to me. Also the African instrument episodes are fun. I need to make a kalimba (sp?).

[Mel Fulks]

I agree that seeing work demonstrated in soft pine can make the work go faster and easier and be seen as misleading.BUT
when north Eastern white pine started to be "imported " into the South the workers had no problem with the reality that their work would be faster and easier.

[Harry Hagan]

Reading this thread reminds me of the behind-the-scene peek my neighborhood KFC occasionally affords local customers regarding television production. Sometimes you’ll walk in and they’re filming a commercial. You can tell because the regular staff has been replaced by the “pretty people”. They’ll have one each: Caucasian, Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. Sometimes they’ll even repaint the building exterior to support a particular theme—whatever it takes to get the point across.

They don’t mind questions from the gallery or at least they’re polite about it. And we don’t mind asking questions: It’s 2:30 PM and I'll ask the producer, “How long ya been here?” “Since 9:00 AM.” “How long will this commercial last?” “Fifteen seconds!”, and we’ll stay until we get it right! That’s a typical response.

My point is, don’t be knockin’ Roy for imperfect joints. Roy’s on public TV and he doesn’t do dress rehearsals. :D

[Jeff Heath]

I skipped past this thread several times, but since it's still alive and well, I thought I'd add my own comments and feelings....especially after having a couple days to simmer down.

I challenge anyone with a negative opinion of Roy Underhill to just try and do better with 22 minutes to get the message across, and be interesting to most of the watchers, and get it all right in one take. Oh, yeah, and do it all for 30 years straight, and running. That show is as responsible for the resurgence in hand tool woodworking and the marketing of hand tools as any other entity in the world of woodworking today.

The show isn't about cutting dainty dovetails that are slim and perfect. He rifle's through the part where tool actually meets wood, often with predictable results. What's important is the showing of the process, as well as the different tools and techniques that can be used to accomplish the different tasks. There's always more than one way to do anything in woodworking, and Roy frequently gives options, based on the simple tool kit you may have at hand. He does it all quickly, and without any re-takes, often bloodying himself in the process. In fact, if you were juvenile enough, you could probably sit down with a bottle of bourbon and, while watching a Woodwrights Shop marathon, create a drinking game for every time he bloodies himself, do a shop. You wouldn't be able to stand after a few shows.

Just the fact that this topic is even being discussed proves that success of the show.

There are many, many more capable woodworkers around, and Roy will be the first one to admit that, as he has several times in interviews and books. However, I challenge, once again, anyone to do what he has done for hand tool woodworking, and keep it interesting and funny (at times), and keep it going on the air for 30 plus years. Good luck with that!

I often wonder how many people in North America have an interest in woodworking, and perform the craft on any level, professional or otherwise, simply because they saw Roy or Norm on tv. It really irks the living heck out of me when I see them getting bashed for it. Just imagine if the only place you could get furniture from in today's world is from Wicks, Walmart, or Ikea.

I cringe at the thought.......

Disclaimer: I don't know Roy, and have never met him, other than being in a circle of woodworkers having a chat one time at a show.

[David Weaver]

It really irks the living heck out of me when I see them getting bashed for it.

I don't know why folks not appreciating roy's show as much as some folks do and actually stating that they don't would create a big problem. A lot of us aren't aiming to do the kind of woodworking or toolmaking or whatever that roy does on his show and it doesn't resonate with us. I can't think of anything woodworking that resonates with me that's on "regular" TV, but I don't expect that people should share my opinion nor get cranked up angry when they don't share mine.

I did really like it as a kid when I wasn't a woodworker, which makes me think that it has just as much potential or more with non-woodworkers than it does woodworkers. It allows non-woodworkers to practice some level of idealistic escapism.

It's their choice to program the show the way they want, though, and everyone else's right to have an opinion of what they do or don't like about it.

[Graham Haydon]

Well I have not watched much of Roy but he is one of the reasons why I started woodworking for fun again. I stumbled across the episode where he has Chris Schwarz on and discusses the tool chest. It was nice to watch a show that was free to access and watch people who enjoyed what they are doing.

I also liked how he gave the guest lots of room to showcase why they were on the show.

I don't think your ever going to have a whole show on Rolls Royce style furniture making and from my perspective things like the Woodwrights Shop and presenters like Roy offer a pleasing and interesting contrast.

[Sam Stephens]

+1 to the woodwright school as well as the store above it. well worth the time for a visit.


I've been to Roy's school twice in Pittsboro, NC. He is an excellent instructor who is happy to give encouragement to some of us new neanderthals. I agree with others that he can do very detailed work when he has the time. A 20 minute show just doesn't give him enough time. On top of all the education received through his school, he is always entertaining.

[David Weaver]

I don't think your ever going to have a whole show on Rolls Royce style furniture making

Yeah, the format makes it hard - nobody is going to watch week to week in volume, and that kind of content can be delivered on youtube instead (like the super fantastic series that curtis buchanan put on youtube). that resonates with me a lot more, and probably some others. The format is superior and Curtis's delving into the details and matter of fact delivery is something I can appreciate a lot more.

[Brian Holcombe]

I think in order to reach a decent amount of woodworkers, one has to be interesting to more than just one specific sect. I know he covers topics from timber framing to tool making, that's a pretty broad range, so I appreciate that he isn't going to be a master in every situation.

If a show existed where they built one piece of furniture in a season and covered every micro topic relevant to the piece, I would find it interesting, but I'm not sure that I would remain interested enough to watch. Voyeurism has little interest to me, I would rather pick up the tools myself and get to work.

[Jim Koepke]

I do not recall ever spending the time to watch his program without coming away with some "new" knowledge or insight.

I am sure he has made a better living off of his woodworking abilities than many of us.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

Most of us have seen a number of woodworking shows on tv. Most like Norm and Roy at least a little . Norm seems to draw
less fire. That's ok with me ,but I have been convinced for some time that good design with minor flaws is criticized much more than bad design with no noticeable flaw beyond ugliness. I have to put some of Norms modernized kinda- kopies of
old designs in that category.

[David Weaver]

I wonder how many woodworking shows have come and gone while Roy's show has been on. Enough that it doesn't matter if me and a few other people don't find much to appreciate about the show (though like I said, when someone like Peter Ross is on, I find it a lot more interesting).

I really liked Tommy Mac's podcasts, but the show just can't devote the same amount of time to the details, and I can't ever remember to watch it because there's no trigger that makes me think "I should really see this". Instead, it's that I might miss something interesting in carving a tea tray or something, but if I do, no big deal. There were also aspects of the podcast that he can't do now because the show is sponsored by WC.

[Tony Wilkins]

David, is Tommy Mac's podcast still available. Enjoy his show (at least I did when I lived in a town with a PBS that aired it) but it does kinda fly by.

I like to watch The American Woodshop and count how many pocket screws he uses in each project - usually more than I can count with my shoes off.

[David Weaver]

Some of it probably is. When he first started, Woodcraft took it down or had him take it down or some details there where it was down. He had some lie nielsen tools in those podcasts that he'd come across (he was an advocate of minimalism with tools in the podcasts if you recall) and when he did finally get some LN tools to play with, he had glowing praise about how great they were even though you could gather he didn't like the price.

If they're back up, I'd imagine those segments are cut out of them. I lost a lot of respect for woodcraft when those podcasts were taken down. I get the sense that (and this entire post is pretty much just my opinion) that they were made by tommy to pitch for a show and not just for him to make podcasts, but they were valuable to amateur woodworkers, and free and accessible (and entertaining).

[Rob Luter]

I like Roy and the historical perspective he brings to utilitarian woodworking. No one will accuse him of putting on a fine woodworking clinic, but I don't see that as the point of the show.

[Evan Patton]

David, is Tommy Mac's podcast still available. Enjoy his show (at least I did when I lived in a town with a PBS that aired it) but it does kinda fly by.

I like to watch The American Woodshop and count how many pocket screws he uses in each project - usually more than I can count with my shoes off.

I just googled "Tommy Mac Podcast" and their still available (and free) on iTunes. Thanks for the tip.

[David Weaver]

I guess the test to see if they have been cut down is whether or not you see any lie nielsen tools in any of the tommy mac stuff out there.

[James Conrad]

From what I could watch, it's been sanitized. Seems if a Woodcraft tool option is available its being used. I didn't see any of his old podcasts. He's a little easier to watch in these vs. the TV show.

[Bobby O'Neal]

Also a fan of Tommy's old podcasts. I appreciate his humility.

[David Weaver]

From what I could watch, it's been sanitized. Seems if a Woodcraft tool option is available its being used. I didn't see any of his old podcasts. He's a little easier to watch in these vs. the TV show.

I saw a pretty awful spot covering chisels where the bubinga chrome vanadium chinese chisels were described as being spectacular and high end, which I thought was pretty offputting. They are decent chisels, but he had to oversell them. I liked on his old podcast when he pretty much said anything was fine, it's not the point of woodworking.

[steven c newman]

ot sure about Tommy's stuff, haven't watched much of it. I have watch Roy almost from the beginning. It was on right after Norm's early shows. Power tool way, vs, Roy's way. I also remember when Scott Phillips had his old shop, with those wondows along the wall, and not a single Kreg in sight. Scott lives about halfway between Piqua, OH, and Sidney, OH. Been past the place a few times, too. Seems when he got married, and a new house, everything changed.....

Ever see the New Yankee with Bob Vila showing up? This was BEFORE Norm got the Barn from Russ Morash to film in. Other side of the barn was for The Victory Garden shows...

Made quite a few of Norm's stuff, but doing it MY way. Did not have all them power tools like he did. Have made a few of Roy's as well. I watch Roy more to learn HOW to use those old tools, then make something.

Twas a time where if they needed something made for a house project, well, Norm would make a trip over to HIS own shop ( Garage!) and show Vila how it was done. And Vila was wise enough to stay out of the way.

Nowadays, the only way to get a good woodworking show on the air is to have "sponsors" who pay the bills. If they want their products "featured" it is all a part of the deal. I use what I have on hand, not what they want to push on me to buy. My choice....

[Joe Tilson]

He may just be into rustic furniture. I'm talking about the kind Papaw might make out in the work shop. Just simple stuff that works.

[Pat Barry]

I saw a pretty awful spot covering chisels where the bubinga chrome vanadium chinese chisels were described as being spectacular and high end, which I thought was pretty offputting. They are decent chisels, but he had to oversell them. I liked on his old podcast when he pretty much said anything was fine, it's not the point of woodworking.

I have watched all his shows and I never once thought that he was advertising or selling anything, ever, well except the city of Boston and the woodworking school he attended, but that's it. Now I can't feel bad about his allegiance to either of those and he doesn't really try to sell either of them IMO. As far as tools, I don't see it at all.

[Alan Caro]

Andrew Fleck,

I have seen only a few ''Woodwright's" and I agree with the other comments that the idea that the show is a demonstration of the application of tool via technique to a result, and that has to be done quickly under pressure, probably as George Wilson mentions, with interruptions, discomfort, and production pressures.

An aspect that is interesting to me is that of the modern idea that craftsmanship had a golden age of several hundred years with immaculate quality everywhere. I've spent time in historic keyboard collections /museums all over and seen dozens of harpsichords, clavichords, and organs inside and out and can say that the standard of craftsmanship is much higher today. There are aspects of musical instruments that have to be very precise- particularly the action, yet there are virginals and clavichords in which as someone commented (Charles Burney, 1770's?) "more wood is heard than wire". Clavichords are very quiet and yet the keyboards make a racket and the rack design that guide them was often casually executed. Virginals are worse as the keyboards are hidden under the soundboard as opposed to the visible ones in clavichords. And,harpsichords with very fine casework and acceptably precise action can have their important internal structures that look hacked out of old bed frames with glue running out of the gaping joinery. English 18th C. harpsichords had elegantly banded veneered case sides and lids- except- the straightside (spine) except in instruments for royalty- was left un-veneered-it went against the wall and the big knot holes in those roughly planed Pine planks wouldn't be seen. If it didn't show, it didn't matter and an 18th Century harpsichord of very high cost- a double manual harpsichord could cost the equivalent of a good sized house- would never be accepted by customers today. George Wilson and I were talking recently about the higher craftsmanship of the 16th C. luthiers and this was true in keyboard instruments as well, but as time went on, keyboard instruments were made in batches with a division of labor and speed supplanted accuracy to some degree- they had to turn them out even if if was only six at a time. Organs tend to have somewhat higher precision in places that don't show because the tracker actions had to be very precise or it would by impossible to open 20 or 30 pallets if the trackers and rollers had play, plus where's there's air pressure, there can't be leaks.

There was of course, some very fine worksmanship in the 19th and 20th Centuries, but it seems to me that this was the result of gradual introduction of the modern era of machine woodworking tools continually raised the standards in general for craftmanship far beyond the historical one. The more accurately a machine could do it, the more it was expected done by hand. The golden age of hand craftsmanship is now.

Alan Caro

[george wilson]

A guy I know who works on early keyboard instruments found the entire contents of a glue pot inside a 16th. C. Italian harpsichord. The builder had spilled his glue inside his instrument,and hadn't even bothered to try to wipe it up! He figured he'd be dead before someone took the soundboard off and found his sloppy work!!

Those of us who have been around old work know that if it wasn't seen,it just was left rough. Even a fine carved and gilded mirror frame will be quite rough on the back side.

[Tom M King]

Fast and Cheap have been two main priorities in building anything for as long as anything has been built. Those of us who are paid to work on old stuff with regards to neither are indeed very lucky.

[Simon MacGowen]

So recently I have been watching some episodes of The Woodwright Shop on PBS since I started becoming more interested in hand tools. I have noticed that on a lot of the furniture that he makes the quality seems to miss the mark a little bit (gaps in miters, blow out, etc.) I'm not saying for a minute that I can do a better job with hand tools, but I didn't just start making furniture. It seems at least to me that he kind of just throws it together quickly. Maybe it is just to highlight the technique rather than the furniture. Has anybody else noticed this? Maybe I am just being overly critical.

I don't think you are overly critical; you are stating your observation which I totally agree with. I seldom watch Roy's show because I want something more inspiring or instilling confidence and I must say that some of his shows aren't. In one of the episodes, he cut his finger and you could see him carrying on with blood there. He should either put a bandage or edit out that part; we all cut ourselves, no big deal. But leaving that in the show was distracting to say the least...and quite non-professional for a national show like that.

If a show is 27 minutes long, then present something that is suitable within that amount of time and don't use it and other factors as excuses to put out a poorly cut joint and what not. If needed, cover the technique or project in two episodes. We don't see anybody else -- Norm, Tommy Mac, etc, -- who produce poorly executed projects and they don't have a day as compared to Roy, either. On the hand tool side, we have Paul Sellers, etc. who don't show us any crappy cuts just because time is limited -- why! Editing is a tool anyone can use.

I am not saying Roy needs to change and he has no reasons to. But as viewers, we are free to choose what to watch and need not come up with excuses for him.

If I wanted to learn a technique, I wanted someone to show me how to do it and convinced me with the results. If Roy's intention is to first entertain and second teach a skill or technique, it is fine and he certainly meets his objectives. I still prefer the opposite.

Of course, if his were just one of those Youtube home-made woodworking shows, my assessment would be different.

Simon

[Federico Mena Quintero]

I've found Roy's program to be both inspirational and informative.

When I didn't know anything, I watched the program to get inspiration; one could see just how many things could be built if only one learned the skills and got the tools.

When I was in the first stages of learning, Roy's program was still an inspiration, but it wasn't immediately useful. I found other, more specific tutorials, to be good for learning very basic skills (sawing straight, sharpening tools, flattening and squaring a board).

But now that I know something, and have tools, Roy's program is very useful to me. Now that I know what his tools are, and what they do, I can visualize how to make do with the tools I have, or to know when I should really get a tool I'm lacking for a particular operation. I end up paying a lot of attention to how he holds the work in the limited ways in which he can do it during the show, or at the immediate problem-solving that takes place. As a time-constrained woodworker, I can relate to his own kind of pressure.

As others, I enjoy it tremendously when he brings other craftspeople to the show.

Roy's show is about breadth, not depth in a particular sub-area in woodworking, and I like it that way :)

[Phil Thien]

Boy I'm surprised at the # of people that think he isn't capable of fine work. There have been a number of times where he has referred to a completed model (made when the cameras weren't rolling) and the quality was top notch. I'd be quite surprised if he isn't capable of very fine work and still able to produce it in record time. Just not twenty-five minutes.

[Tony Wilkins]

I think a better example of what he's capable of is the stuff he makes/is featured in magazine articles. He's always wanted to make the show approachable. It's never been edited. He shows it how it is - as in occasionally you cut yourself and bleed a little.

[David Weaver]

Boy I'm surprised at the # of people that think he isn't capable of fine work. There have been a number of times where he has referred to a completed model (made when the cameras weren't rolling) and the quality was top notch. I'd be quite surprised if he isn't capable of very fine work and still able to produce it in record time. Just not twenty-five minutes.

I guess it depends on what you consider fine work. I just haven't ever seen anything he's done that reminds me of someone like George or Mack Headley's fine work.

[Simon MacGowen]

I do think Roy has possessed the skills needed to do good joints etc. Some people enjoy reality shows; I don't. For woodworking shows, given the limited footage, I prefer them edited. If mistakes are made, show them and show how they are fixed. Cutting a finger to me has zero learning point there, other than a distraction. Of course, fans of his show would love everything they see there. That should be respected, but it doesn't invalidate the different views of other people who expect something better. My woodworking club runs show and tell projects and we have different expectations about them depending on who produce them, in terms of their woodworking experience. Roy is no beginner and it's natural that some of us want to see the projects he puts on the show of higher quality.

Once I was shown a segment of Rob Cosman's online workshop, I couldn't stand seeing him spend 15 to 20 minutes on something that one would get the idea in 2 or 3 minutes. Ok let's take 5 minutes but not 3 or 4 times that amount and I think his episode is one hour long only. I don't know if he is still using that "reality" format or not as that was the only time I watched his. He, no one will argue, is a very skilled woodworker and his online videos can be improved, too.

Simon

[Mel Fulks]

Roy's show, correct me if I'm wrong , has a grant for specific purposes. To improve the show YOU need to improve the past. If you watch a documentary about elephants do you wonder why they are allowed to have ivory?

[Mansell Bettez]

I guess it depends on what you consider fine work. I just haven't ever seen anything he's done that reminds me of someone like George or Mack Headley's fine work.

I think you fail to understand what Roy's work actually is.

[David Weaver]

I think you fail to understand what Roy's work actually is.

I don't really fail to understand anything. I understand exactly what his work is presented as on the show, and if he has a library of fine work, then it is kept from us because it isn't part of his show, etc. I have seen some of his average work in magazines, and it's something I could do. I can't do fine work. I recognize that he is immensely popular and can do good work, but fine work is another thing entirely. I'd rather learn from people who can do fine work, as I don't have a lot of space in the house for folding bookstands or stackable pine cabinets.

I don't believe either, that:
* I should adopt anyone else's opinion as my own
* anyone else should adopt my opinion as theirs (e.g., if you like the kind of stuff roy makes and you'd like to make it, that's fine. I'm certainly not going to steer someone to rob cosman's case work video where he spends gobs of time trying to plane down the insides of a case.)

[Jack Curtis]

I don't really fail to understand anything....

Oh, please. However I kind of agree with you vis a vis Roy. I watch his show usually just to see what I see as his dissertation on tools and tool usage, especially useful for odd plane types and Barnes machines. It was also really cool to watch Elia Bizzarri bend chair arms on his forms and Mary May carving. The end results of Roy's work is often slapdash. It's just a matter of different goals. And I derive pleasure from watching him.

I also used to watch Norm, mainly because it was the only woodworking show on for a couple or three years. Very entertaining working out as he went along how I'd have to modify the process for hand tool work.

So I think there's value in watching most any of these shows.

[David Weaver]

Oh, please. However I kind of agree with you vis a vis Roy. I watch his show usually just to see what I see as his dissertation on tools and tool usage, especially useful for odd plane types and Barnes machines. It was also really cool to watch Elia Bizzarri bend chair arms on his forms and Mary May carving. The end results of Roy's work is often slapdash. It's just a matter of different goals. And I derive pleasure from watching him.

I also used to watch Norm, mainly because it was the only woodworking show on for a couple or three years. Very entertaining working out as he went along how I'd have to modify the process for hand tool work.

So I think there's value in watching most any of these shows.

That statement is in regard to the whole roy thing, not as a general multiversal statement (just in case universal isn't enough for some folks).

I like watching norm's stuff from time to time, as long as it's not something that's been in magazines and at every woodworking store as a newbie trap (adirondack chairs, etc). Norm is tidy and fast. He isn't working traditionally, but when you see him work, you think "I'd hire a guy who works like that".

Actually, two guys who are contractors in my neighborhood work like that - everything is tight and they are very tidy. They cost a little more, but not much more and they still work on their own with just a single relative helping them.

[Jack Curtis]

That statement is in regard to the whole roy thing, not as a general multiversal statement (just in case universal isn't enough for some folks)....

Understood. :)

[Chris Griggs]

I don't really fail to understand anything.


That statement is in regard to the whole roy thing, not as a general multiversal statement.


Oh Great! You just flushed my whole belief system down the toilet!

:)

[David Weaver]

Well, you can always move to a different layer/bubble and see if you find it better there :) There might be one without meat and leather :)

[Simon MacGowen]

So I think there's value in watching most any of these shows.

I suppose that statement applies to most Youtube woodworking vids or vids produced by bloggers (free or pay to view) we can find these days. I can only speak for myself (as is in the case of Roy's show) that I don't have the luxury of time to extract a little amount of value from most of those videos, even if they are free. I have got to be selective and stay away from 99% of the Youtube woodworking vids or TV woodworking shows that I find below my expectation. In fact, many bloggers who produce videos seem to operate just the opposite of Roy -- they have too much time in their videos and feel the need to include time-wasting fillers in their clips. Most of their videos can be cut in half in length and still nothing will be lost. Another reason why I stay away from them. There are exceptions and those videos are to the point, without long-winded speeches (especially at the beginning) and those are the ones I check out.

Simon

[Mansell Bettez]

I don't really fail to understand anything. I understand exactly what his work is presented as on the show, and if he has a library of fine work, then it is kept from us because it isn't part of his show, etc. I have seen some of his average work in magazines, and it's something I could do. I can't do fine work. I recognize that he is immensely popular and can do good work, but fine work is another thing entirely. I'd rather learn from people who can do fine work, as I don't have a lot of space in the house for folding bookstands or stackable pine cabinets.


I'm certain that you failed to understand my comment :) That's OK though!

I do agree with your comment on opinions.

[David Weaver]

I'm certain that you failed to understand my comment :)

That's probably because it wasn't very specific.

[Phil Thien]

I'm not arguing w/ you guys, but...

It seems to me that if you graph time on one axis and quality on the other, that you could draw a pretty straight diagonal line and someone with a decent amount of experience (like Roy) could work anywhere on that line.

It is one thing to note that the paint job coming from Maaco or Earl Scheib isn't so great. It is quite another to jump to the conclusion that the painter can't do fine work just because he is paid to work quickly.

The same thing goes for Roy's work in magazines. He seems to be this guy that is trying to match the work of our ancestors, where function often trumped form.

Am I nuts?

You can tell me.

[David Weaver]

Totally crazy, Phil :)

Fine work is a term reserved for people who are accomplished at something to a level that most others aren't. I haven't seen anything that Roy has made in terms of cabinet work that would qualify as fine work.

This is fine work:

http://www.cybozone.com/fg/wilson1.html

If lloyds gave me even odds, I'd be willing to put a fairly large sum down saying that Roy wouldn't be able to carve that lute rose out of a solid piece of wood.

The spinet and carvings, the shaw desk and bookcase and bits and pieces that are non-class related on this site are a good example of fine work.

http://anthonyhaycabinetmaker.wordpress.com/

What Mark Yundt and Randall Rosenthal do in the carving section of this site is fine work.

Not just good basic work that would be commissioned by upper middle class folks (if there was such a thing), but fine work that would've been commissioned by folks with means. The latter can choose folks who do stuff that most can't.

[Sean Hughto]

You seem to take for granted that "fine" is always better.

You also seem to think fine is necessary to achieve the highest quality (inherent goodness of the object as a companion or acquaintance in life to the extent it brings delight).

Simple and imperfect can be beautiful, and indeed better than fine craft on an ugly object.

[Phil Thien]

Fine work is a term reserved for people who are accomplished at something to a level that most others aren't.

Well we need a more graduated scale, it can't be just "Beginner, Intermediate, George Wilson."

I'd say "fine" is anything good enough to get into the gallery pages of something like "Fine Woodworking."

We need another term for stuff George does, he is always blowing the curve.

[Pedro Reyes]

I think Roy does fine work, the finest. I am not talking about his pieces which as mentioned I have seen none that are spectacular, but he is trying to share information while entertaining as many as possible, and he does very well IMO.

If you are watching TV hoping to get education, how can I help you :rolleyes:

/p

[David Weaver]

You seem to take for granted that "fine" is always better.

You also seem to think fine is necessary to achieve the highest quality (inherent goodness of the object as a companion or acquaintance in life to the extent it brings delight).

Simple and imperfect can be beautiful, and indeed better than fine craft on an ugly object.

No, not necessarily better. I just don't need to turn on the TV to watch anyone making "ugly" objects. I could go to my shop and make those without any instruction. Simple objects still need to have good design, and I guess there can be some debate there. I wouldn't ever put anything with exposed dovetails or lots of end grain in my house. It's fine if other people do, I just don't love that look a whole lot.

[Sean Hughto]

I just don't need to turn on the TV to watch anyone making "ugly" objects. I could go to my shop and make those without any instruction.

I haven't seen the Woodwrights shop more than once or twice - I remember him making rakes or something (it was interesting how he pulled riven green wood though sort of dowel plates and stuff) - so I don't really know; do you think Roy makes ugly objects? And I guess I never understood Roy as a rustic Norm or something where he was making a repro of a certain cabinet or whatever; is that what he does? And then he make that cabinet with gappy/half assed joints? I always took Roy to be more explaining the older methods and tools, and what you go into your shop and produce - with those methods and tools (ugly or good) was up to you.

[Pat Barry]

...I like watching norm's stuff from time to time, as long as it's not something that's been in magazines and at every woodworking store as a newbie trap (adirondack chairs, etc). .

I actually give credit (blame) to Norm for inspiring the entire Adirondack chair movement / revival. If he hadn't done that project on NYW there wouldn't be the entire industry that is now dedicated to versions of that chair (including all the plastic ones).

[David Weaver]

Well, i've seen a couple of shows in a decade. One was making ugly objects (stackable shelves), another was with peter ross (that was great/interesting, but peter was doing all of the work for obvious reasons), and the last I saw a minute or two of a show where Chris Schwarz was talking about saws and it was pretty easy to change the channel on that one, and not see much of it.

The thrill of the show when I was younger wasn't what he was making, it was the delivery. And the free flow of wood chips. I think those are the kinds of things that draw a larger audience, and not fine work. That's one of the reasons I liked Tommy Mac's old podcasts...he was doing....fine work.

[David Weaver]

I actually give credit (blame) to Norm for inspiring the entire Adirondack chair movement / revival. If he hadn't done that project on NYW there wouldn't be the entire industry that is now dedicated to versions of that chair (including all the plastic ones).

I agree, he popularized it. I see them everywhere, even in recycled plastic form at farm markets here. They are just something we've seen a million times now, and I don't think I could sit through an episode of making them. He did make a chest of drawers or a buffet or something with a rounded front very quickly once (I haven't seen as much norm as most people) and I was amazed at how quickly he built stuff. Presume he was building a project a week (for part of the year at least) and had to do a trial version first.

Last I saw him before that was a friend whose dad (almost 20 years ago now) watched him on a weekly basis and we would watch, too, and his father would get upset at the level of gear in Norm's shop.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Looking past opinions on woodworking, I view "The Woodwright's Shop" as what Roy Underhill represents: a woodwright, a carpenter and basically a "jack of all trades". I've enjoyed the show since the beginning and my kids have bought DVD copies of some of the seasons for me as presents. Looking at the content of the seasons shows woodworking as the central theme, but also with an air of self-sustainence of what (and how) "The Foxfire" series of books presented life in in early America.

I don't think Roy intends to present himself as a Mack Headley, but more as an early American that made do with what was at hand.

[Mansell Bettez]

Well we need a more graduated scale, it can't be just "Beginner, Intermediate, George Wilson."

How about "Beginner, Intermediate, Not Fine but Good, George Wilson". :)

[David Weaver]

How about "Beginner, Intermediate, Not Fine but Good, George Wilson". :)

Looks good to me!

[Greg Berlin]

If you want some great instruction on hand tool woodworking on furniture grade stuff, check out Paul Sellers at PaulSellers.com and his sister site where you can join for a small monthly fee and watch a new video weekly at woodworkingmasterclasses.com. I personally love him as a teacher of hand tool methods and he goes into great detail on most things. His work seems to always turn out great as well.

[lowell holmes]

I, check out Paul Sellers at PaulSellers.com and his sister site where you can join for a small monthly fee and watch a new video weekly at woodworkingmasterclasses.com. I personally love him as a teacher of hand tool methods and he goes into great detail on most things. His work seems to always turn out great as well.


Paul was the master woodworker at Homestead Heritage when I took classes, making furniture with handtools. He is everything Greg says about him.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Paul was the master woodworker at Homestead Heritage when I took classes, making furniture with handtools. He is everything Greg says about him.

SWMBO bought me his DVD set & book as a present a few years ago. After you put aside the "production sights & sounds" it does an excellent job at presenting basic means and methods. This would have been an excellent purchase for me 35 years earlier than I got it, but still interesting as a refresher/reminder. The book is better than the DVD's.

[larry munninghoff]

Tommy Macs podcasts are available on his website. I just watched an episode last night{Bombay Secretary} he was using an LN #8, giving it high marks for its quality.

[David Weaver]

Good, it sounds like a large part (or maybe all?) of the stuff is back. I watched the bombe episodes back as they were coming out - a great series of videos.

[Roderick Gentry]

I caught Roy pretty much from the beginning. My impression was that he was better back then. He was at a point about 10 years ago were nothing in his demos ever seemed to come off, and then in more recent seasons, he seems to be back on track against, and has started the school, which should get one back on one's toes. I am not saying any of this in criticism. I sorta assumed that he was at one time a beginer, and super into it, and then he was a pro. I figured somewhere in there with his other businesses, kids, whatever, he got slack, and has found it again. None of that may be true, but it was the impression I got from watching the shows. And it is a pretty common trajectory for most people.

One of his professions is communications, another subject he has written on. He is not going to let the details stop him from communicating with the audience with some stunt, or story.