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Scott Shepherd
03-19-2014, 10:19 AM
Anyone got any tips for hiring people, people that want to work? We're a small business and we talk to a lot of other small businesses and we all seem to tell similar stories. We can't find people that want to work. None of us have the money to pay headhunters massive fees to find people for us, so we struggling with trying to locate people on our own.

These are all jobs that are skilled trades and everyone would love to have qualified, skilled people, but we're all in the same boat now, we'll take anyone, as long as they are the right type of person. But none of us can seem to find the Holy Grail on where those people exist.

Some people said "Go to the high school trade programs". A number of us have done that. One friend (and business owner) got the "best and brightest" in the technical class. Kid showed up and actually went to sleep on the job on the first day. We interviewed 2 kids, 1 couldn't work Monday-Friday. I asked about Saturday and he said "No", then I said "Sunday?", and he said "I go to Church on Sunday". So you can't work Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Sunday?". Got it. The next kid tells me he uses a lot of wood shop tools. I asked him what tools he used. He couldn't name any of them. Tells me he's really good with Photoshop. I asked how long he'd be using it. He said he used it 1 time in a class LAB project. I asked him what days he could work, he said he didn't drive, so he'd have to see when he could get a ride to work.

We hired someone and all they did was text all day. And that was a grown man, not a kid. Guy was approaching 50. Crashed every single machine he touched. Gee, you think if you'd pay attention to machine and not Facebook or text messages, maybe you would have seen the machine doing something wrong. (he doesn't work here any longer)

We've tried employment offices as well. Not a single person there actually wanted a job. They just needed a place to say they interviewed so they could continue to get unemployment.

When I was entering my trade, all I wanted to do was learn about my trade. I'd read everything I could about it at night, I'd do things on my own time that helped me move forward in my career. I can't find those people now.

The pay range has varied from $10 per hour to $18 per hour from the people I know looking for people, and we're just stumped.

Any ideas or suggestions on where to find those great kids that don't want to go to college, but want to work and are smart, hard working kids that want to learn and take the ball and run with it?

Phil Thien
03-19-2014, 10:28 AM
Hire older people, not kids. Someone maybe in their late 40's or early 50's.

Steve Rozmiarek
03-19-2014, 10:29 AM
Good luck. They are a myth now. Society has been declining since ww2, and the current working age group, is worse than the last. In my experience, even if you find someone who can work, they have so little grasp of financial realities that it's a temporary solution only.

Dave Anderson NH
03-19-2014, 10:47 AM
It's a crap shoot Scott. We had a problem with constant texting by some production people and solved the problem by prohibiting cell phones of any type on the work floor except during lunch or breaks. First offense 3 day suspension, second offense nets the offender the opportunity to find a new employer. Most importantly it is clearly stated in our employee manual and we keep a paper trail.

In our industry (die cutting and stamping) it is almost never possible to hire experienced help so we have to train. It is a burden for a small company like ours, but there is no choice. We interview carefully, spend the minimum on ads, and only once used an agency to hire a quality manager. Referrals have mostly worked well for us but even then we have been bitten a couple of times.

Scott Shepherd
03-19-2014, 11:00 AM
Hire older people, not kids. Someone maybe in their late 40's or early 50's.

They tend to think they are worth more than the owners of the small businesses, pay wise. Mr. Text Message made me than I do, and we did that to see if paying more would pay off. It didn't in that one case. We can't go bankrupt trying to meet some fat payroll. It's small business, the world where "if you don't generate any revenue, we have no money to pay you" is the normal, it's hard to find people that want a career, not a job.

David G Baker
03-19-2014, 11:36 AM
Consider returning Vets. The military has a tendency to make people more self disciplined. When I was hiring I hired mostly Vietnam Vets.

Dave Sheldrake
03-19-2014, 12:03 PM
Amen brother, with what the youngsters can get from the state here for doing nothing you would have to pay $60k a year just for them to be better off!

cheers

Dave

Scott Shepherd
03-19-2014, 12:23 PM
It's dumbfounding to me (and my friends with small businesses) that you just can't find people that A) want to work, B) care about their job. Honestly, I could put someone up in a pretty sweet deal. You might not get rich next month, but if you help me with what I want to do, I'd happily share in the success with anyone that helped me get there.

I'd also be happy to hire returning Vets. Just haven't figured out where they are located because they're not applying for the jobs we've posted. Basically, our business is stuck at a certain level because we can't find people to help take it to the next level.

I personally would think there would be loads of kids out there that don't know what they want to do, but know they don't want to go to college, but if so, they aren't applying either.

Andrew Fleck
03-19-2014, 12:49 PM
It's dumbfounding to me (and my friends with small businesses) that you just can't find people that A) want to work, B) care about their job. Honestly, I could put someone up in a pretty sweet deal. You might not get rich next month, but if you help me with what I want to do, I'd happily share in the success with anyone that helped me get there.

I'd also be happy to hire returning Vets. Just haven't figured out where they are located because they're not applying for the jobs we've posted. Basically, our business is stuck at a certain level because we can't find people to help take it to the next level.

I personally would think there would be loads of kids out there that don't know what they want to do, but know they don't want to go to college, but if so, they aren't applying either.

Hi Scott,
Try and contact the people here https://www.acap.army.mil/default.aspx This is just the service that the Army uses, but other branches use something similiar. Everyone who is leaving the Army goes to multiple briefings given by this organization. Their job is to help people transition from military back to civilian life. This includes finding jobs. I'm fairly certain there is a way for you to basically advertise that you are hiring through them. There are a lot of people both in and leaving the service that are from Va. Hope this helps you out.

Mark Bolton
03-19-2014, 12:57 PM
Scott,
Unfortunately your conundrum is no news to most of us in business. Reading your post is like listening to myself talk. We regularly hired two kids each year from either the junior or graduating class of the local trade program. It was a crap shoot. You would get a smart kid, but he didnt want to stay in the trade. You would get kids who simply didnt know how to read a tape. You would get kids who had grown up in hard working farm life and they knew well how to get around doing work. It went on and on. I had two very good kids who unfortunately both had health issues. One came to the conclusion that he simply didnt want to be in the trade and the other moved on to big $$ oil field work.

I also went the route Phil and others have mentioned hiring older people and to be completely honest I think they are worse than young people many times. You inherit all of their bad habits. Everything you tell them to do becomes a long time wasting conversation about their opinion of how it should be, could be, or was, done in some job they had 25 years ago. I am what I consider to be a rare individual in that I will always, 100% of the time, consider re-thinking my approach to a given task. That is to say I am open to suggestion always. But a change in procedure happens over time and has to be vetted. For now when I tell you how, when, and what, I want done I just want you to do it. We will consider your opinions in time. That doesnt fly too well with the older crowd and they dont seem to often realize that taking the time to explain why their idea wouldnt work well is wasted $$.

I have gone the head hunter/employment service route as well with no luck. Run ad's in the paper (a nightmare). Its very very difficult.

I have long hoped to find a young "me" who just enjoyed working. I have long said, I never really went to work to make money. I simply cant recall that ever being my motivation. I worked because its simply "what you do". It started with a paper route in my early teens which I sought out more and more routes to fold into my own. Then moved into a yard/landscaping business that I grew locally until I got my license and spread out even more buying brand new truck in high school, and on through the rest of my career. I just worked, and enjoyed working and being sought after, and the money happened all on its own. Its the very same way today.

I dont have an answer for you because I simply believe the mindset today has changed drastically from a mere 20-30 years ago. And unfortunately that change seems to support Dave Anderson's reply where you simply have to treat your employees like cog's in a sense. You must have SOP's, there must be rules for the rules, there MUST be consequences, and so on. If you do any reading over at Woodweb's business forum this is a constant topic of conversation and while I have never been successful at implementing it, the simple fact of rules and rules seem to be the way you have to go. A very common approach that I agree with fully is you have to hire slowly and fire quickly. Implement trial periods so you can hire more and more people (by firing ones that dont fit immediately) hoping to stumble across a lottery ticket that pays.

I am simply unwilling to do this any more and this issue, far more than any to do with government/taxes/etc, is what would keep me from growing my business. Having just a few employees is a full time job requiring either you, or someone else, to manage them. If your time is too valuable to the business to be spent sitting in the HR position, you now have to hire another person. I simply do not have the desire to babysit children or adults all day long and that seemed to be the only option.

About 6-7 years ago we were running 4-5 guys full time and a couple part time. During that time I basically did nothing other than tend to them. Putting out fires, fixing/correcting their mistakes, stopping every five minutes to answer the same questions, enforcing the rules, and so on. I would go in to work on a Saturday alone and felt like I got nearly as much done in a single day as was done all week (far from true but it felt like it).

Another major issue I have nowadays is when I apprenticed in the trade it wasnt a pleasant experience. You were yelled at, things may be thrown at you, you had to run, literally run, all day long. It made you work your butt of not to get reamed. However now, whether its young or old, people simply will not push themselves at all and even worse they refuse to be pushed. If someone really drops the ball or is continually not applying themselves and you get at all firm, poof, they will quit because your "picking on them". I consider my business "the beach" compared to where I came from. We work an easy pace, work smart, do work thats rewarding, tell jokes, and so on. What we often find is someone comes to work, they quit for whatever reason, then months later they will come back saying they had no idea how good they had it. Unfortunately for most I am one shot deal, once you bail youve bailed. However I currently have one kid thats on his second go around and doing much better.

As I mentioned, I am currently in the process of winding my business down to a level where it may just be me, or me and a helper (perhaps part time). The sole motivation for that is the subject your asking about.

Just a train of thought response here at lunch, sorry if its not grammatically correct and flowing..

Von Bickley
03-19-2014, 12:58 PM
That's a big problem with our system. Our present system encourages people not to work. Why get up early and go to work when you can stay home and let the mail-man bring you a check.
Cut out a lot of give-away programs so people will need to work to support themselves and their families.

Jim Rimmer
03-19-2014, 1:02 PM
I can't provide much encouragement because it's not just small businesses that face the problem. I work for a major corporation that offers competitive pay ($20/hour and up), paid holidays and vacation, good health and dental insurance, employer matched contributions to 401K, and the list goes on and we can't find good people that are willing to work.

Phil Thien
03-19-2014, 1:06 PM
They tend to think they are worth more than the owners of the small businesses, pay wise. Mr. Text Message made me than I do, and we did that to see if paying more would pay off. It didn't in that one case. We can't go bankrupt trying to meet some fat payroll. It's small business, the world where "if you don't generate any revenue, we have no money to pay you" is the normal, it's hard to find people that want a career, not a job.

I'm not disagreeing with your point, mind you. I'm positive there are plenty of 40 and 50-YO people looking for $50+/hour. But Wal*Mart and McDonalds and Home Depot seem to be hiring older and older employees, and I'm pretty sure they aren't paying that terribly well.

Kevin Bourque
03-19-2014, 1:43 PM
I was in McDonalds last week. There were at least 8 people allegedly "working" there, but mostly they were talking with each other and generally horsing around.

I think most young people have an over inflated sense of entitlement.

William Adams
03-19-2014, 1:44 PM
If someone had the answer, they could make a fortune.

I can well remember my cousin, who was a farmer in the area being told by a gentleman who arranged seasonal labour in the area, ``Go buy a round-baler (as opposed to making smaller rectangular bales) --- I can't find anyone who's willing to work picking up hay bales, and when I find them, they're no-good-for-nothing.''

Quite a change from when the introduction to _The Advanced Machinist_ could say in its Preface,



``Help wanted'', thirty-two paid advertisements in a single issue. Not a single one of these called for any except those possessing qualifications expressed as follows:

Sober, first-class, good, competent, accurate, experienced, undoubted ability, ambitious, able to handle men, killed, with shop experience, executive ability, all-around, able to design, able to supervise construction, satisfactory men.

...

Men possessing the qualifications described above may well be classed as ``advanced'' machinists, designers, draughtsmen and engineers; it is the glory of the age that there are many such to be found...

Mark Bolton
03-19-2014, 1:51 PM
That's a big problem with our system. Our present system encourages people not to work. Why get up early and go to work when you can stay home and let the mail-man bring you a check.
Cut out a lot of give-away programs so people will need to work to support themselves and their families.

In my opinion this is a load of malarkey. No one in this situation is going to just sit around and get a check if they don't work. It just doesn't hold water.

If you want my honest opinion what the single largest factor is in the decline of the young workforce (which is what were actually talking about) is poor parenting and grandparenting. Parents and grandparents wanting kids to feel zero pain or inconvenince and live a life of total bliss. It has ruined the last two or three generations and we are feeling it now.

Pain, and not getting what you want, are what make us who we are. That exists only sparsely in today's world. It has seeped into the workforce in general. As another reply stated, it's everywhere from small business on up, no one is exempt. But it has little to do with any political agendas regardless of what "they say" on tv.

Lee Schierer
03-19-2014, 1:59 PM
There are two things that I would suggest.

First, look at their work history and if they change jobs every year or two or more often, avoid hiring them, because you will be the next listing on their resume or job history and check references.

Second, hire people through a temporary agency and if they don't work you call the temp agency and tell them not to send that person back. It will cost a bit more, but you don't have to fire them and you can hire the good ones as permanent employees. You can also tell the temps that you are going to hire someone full time if they work out. If they don't, well you make one phone call and they are gone.

There are sites such as recruitmilitary.com and hireveterans.com that specialize in vet job placement. I don't know what they charge and have never dealt with them myself. I think your state unemployment office will post your job for free at their website and you can certainly specify veterans are preferred.

Most companies have a policy of no cell phones on the shop floor where there are machines involved. You just have to make sure that management also follows the policy.....

Mel Fulks
03-19-2014, 2:06 PM
Well, the help systems do have many flaws. There is a huge fraud still being investigated where a lawyer and judge were in cahoots and nearly 100 percent of their people were approved for disability. The oversight judge had warned the case judge but declined to take any action. So HE is part of the problem.

Erik Loza
03-19-2014, 2:07 PM
I have no answers to any of these questions except to say that it is pandemic in the industry. For the ten years I have been doing this, you cannot get enough good technicians. It almost seems irrespective of pay: Folks just don't want to do it. Unfortunate indeed.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Mark Bolton
03-19-2014, 2:15 PM
I was in McDonalds last week. There were at least 8 people allegedly "working" there, but mostly they were talking with each other and generally horsing around.

I think most young people have an over inflated sense of entitlement.

It's a good scapegoat but the sense of entitlement is in the mirror of the parents raising these kids. The vast majority of them come from homes where parents work but have swaddled them through their entire lives making them work for nothing. It's done them a monumental disservice. It's nothing more than that.

Dan Hintz
03-19-2014, 3:50 PM
it's hard to find people that want a career, not a job.

$10/hr is a job, not a career. Careers are salaried positions that provide long-term stability with a boatload of bennies. Consider you can make nearly $10/hr slinging fries at the local McD's... kind of puts your job in perspective, no? You want technically minded folks, but you're paying wages that attract people who fit one of three molds: 1) They want experience and are willing to take a low wage to get it (this is a short-term person as once they have the experience they'll look elsewhere), 2) They're desperate (another short-term person as they'll leave when high-paying jobs open up again), or 3) They're lazy, and this pay range often means a job they can goof around on and no one will notice for a long period of time (short-term again). NOTE: I'm not saying guys like us could afford to pay workers more given our typical billing rates, I'm just putting the pay we can give into perspective.

You definitely want person #1 above, but you need to give them a reason to hang around beyond the weekly paycheck. Instantiate profit sharing... if they bring in customers, they will earn 5% of a project's billing after the customer has been on the books for 6 months. This prevents them from bringing in shill clients with one-time purchases, and the time between finding a customer and making a personal profit off of them is short enough to entice them to stay around. This is one of many ways to keep the employee around. If they take a personal interest in an existing client's work, let them work on that job while you search for new work... if they find a way to speed up the process, make an improvement on the existing design, etc., give them a bonus.

Also, make sure these people have something interesting to do... if they have time to sit at a desk and text their friends, they're bored. Bored people get into trouble. Bored people leave. If the workload is light, it's better if you take out the trash or sweep the floors if it means they get to work on the new project that just walked through the door. If they want to try out new materials or new techniques, let them (assuming it won't ruin equipment)... they're just sitting there doing nothing anyway, so might as well fill that time with experimentation that could lead to unique work farther down the road.

Scott Shepherd
03-19-2014, 4:44 PM
$10/hr is a job, not a career. Careers are salaried positions that provide long-term stability with a boatload of bennies. Consider you can make nearly $10/hr slinging fries at the local McD's... kind of puts your job in perspective, no? You want technically minded folks, but you're paying wages that attract people who fit one of three molds: 1) They want experience and are willing to take a low wage to get it (this is a short-term person as once they have the experience they'll look elsewhere), 2) They're desperate (another short-term person as they'll leave when high-paying jobs open up again), or 3) They're lazy, and this pay range often means a job they can goof around on and no one will notice for a long period of time (short-term again). NOTE: I'm not saying guys like us could afford to pay workers more given our typical billing rates, I'm just putting the pay we can give into perspective.

You definitely want person #1 above, but you need to give them a reason to hang around beyond the weekly paycheck. Instantiate profit sharing... if they bring in customers, they will earn 5% of a project's billing after the customer has been on the books for 6 months. This prevents them from bringing in shill clients with one-time purchases, and the time between finding a customer and making a personal profit off of them is short enough to entice them to stay around. This is one of many ways to keep the employee around. If they take a personal interest in an existing client's work, let them work on that job while you search for new work... if they find a way to speed up the process, make an improvement on the existing design, etc., give them a bonus.

Also, make sure these people have something interesting to do... if they have time to sit at a desk and text their friends, they're bored. Bored people get into trouble. Bored people leave. If the workload is light, it's better if you take out the trash or sweep the floors if it means they get to work on the new project that just walked through the door. If they want to try out new materials or new techniques, let them (assuming it won't ruin equipment)... they're just sitting there doing nothing anyway, so might as well fill that time with experimentation that could lead to unique work farther down the road.

Dan, I think you're using the wrong end of career in your definition. When I say "career", I mean I'll take someone that doesn't know which end of a screwdriver to hold, I'll mold them into a person that can take jobs and do them from start to finish, giving them a career. I have no illusions that $10 per hour is a career changing wage. I also didn't say we paid $10 per hour, I said the range from the people we talk to ranges from $10 per hour, knowing that those people have no skills related to the actual job needed, up to the $18 range, which for the trades we are in, are considered reasonable.

I'd happily do profit sharing and all that good stuff. But there has to be a profit to share, and if you think your time is better spent on Facebook or texting than working on something that will grow our business or increase profits then I can't really be too willing to share anything with you, even the same office space.

I get it, no one will ever care as much about my business as I do. I get that. But in the scale of 0-100, 0 meaning they don't care at all, and 100 meaning caring like you own it, I'd like to find someone that's at least breaking the 50 threshold.

The last guy we "tried out" quit his job and showed up at our door, begging for a chance to work with us and help us grow. We told him the deal, no workee, no payee. "He got it" or so he said. His kid ended up in the hospital about a week into coming here. He took days off at a time, then hours and hours off. We paid him for every single minute he was off taking care of his kid. Didn't have to, but knew he was in a bad spot. When he came back to work, never once did he say "Can I work late to make up my time?", or "Can I work Saturday to make up my time for missing Tuesday?", or better yet, he never once even said "Thanks for paying me for the days I missed with my kid, I really appreciate it".

What kind of person treats someone that takes them in when they don't have a job, and then pays them when they aren't there like that? I'm out on a job one day, I get a text from him with some photos of some disgusting photo of some dead baby doll someone made, and immediately get a "Sorry, that was supposed to go to my wife". What? I'm out working and you're SUPPOSED to be working, and you're sitting back searching the internet for that stuff and then sending it to your wife? Dumbfounding to me.

We paid him more than I make because he had all this "skill and talent". He never brought 1 single customer into this place. We repeatedly asked him to try and help get some work, and he kept saying "I don't know anyone". So when we told him we didn't need his services any longer, he immediately said "I know a couple places we can get work".

This guy wasn't a 20 year old kid, he was a grown man with a family and close to 50 years old.

I'd love to pay people big fat money, but we're not a bank, we're a small business. In order to pay you big fat money, you need to make us big fatter money, so there's enough to pay you and the bills and everyone moves forward together. But I can't pay a kid with no experience at all $20 per hour. That makes no sense to me.

Brian Elfert
03-19-2014, 6:24 PM
It seems strange that the unemployment rate is at unheard of levels yet businesses say they can't find workers. We read all the time about people in their 40s or 50s who previously had six figure incomes who are now working fast food to scrape by. My brother had a really good job doing marketing, but he got laid off over a year ago after a merger and can't find another job. He has no college degree so nobody will hire him.

I've worked in the IT field for almost 20 years now and I don't know if I could find another job. So many IT job postings are very specific about the skills they want. I could probably meet 75% for a lot of jobs, but everybody seems to want people with 90% or 100% of the qualifications. They don't seem to be willing to let anyone learn the parts they don't already know.

I've worked for thirteen years at my current employer and five years at my own business before that. In the IT industry it is common to see folks who switch jobs every year or two. I'm not that guy. I've only had five jobs in my entire life including part time and summer jobs. (Six jobs if you include a paid internship.)

Scott Shepherd
03-19-2014, 7:31 PM
It seems strange that the unemployment rate is at unheard of levels yet businesses say they can't find workers. We read all the time about people in their 40s or 50s who previously had six figure incomes who are now working fast food to scrape by. My brother had a really good job doing marketing, but he got laid off over a year ago after a merger and can't find another job. He has no college degree so nobody will hire him.

I honestly think that's part of the "not caring" problem. If you made $100,000 in your last job (about $50 per hour), and now you're looking for any job you can find, how much do you think you'll care about the job that's offering $15 per hour? Probably not much.

I'm a tradesman. I served my apprenticeship. Like Mark (I think) said earlier, the things I put up with, I'd probably be in jail for today if I did it to a worker. I recall my lead Journeyman when I was coming up. I'd walk over to him and say "Hey, the finish on this thing isn't coming out right, I don't know what to do". He's proceed to eat me alive, belittle me, tell me how stupid I was, and call me about every name in the book. He'd ask me "Did you check this? That? What about this?" and my answer was always "umm....no,no.....and no". He'd curse me and walk away shaking his head. It didn't take too long before I realized when I had a problem, I better run through every single possible thing I could think of before even thinking about looking his direction. As time went on, I'd ask a lot smarter questions and I'd be able to answer "Yes, Yes, and Yes" to his questions. I thought he was hard, but in the end, he really taught me to think for myself and work out my own troubleshooting issues before immediately throwing in the towel and calling for help. I credit him today as being one of the best teachers I ever had.

After hearing from people we deal with daily, and then seeing other posts in this thread, I know there's a much bigger issue out there and I don't know what it is, but something certainly is wrong when this many small business owners are BEGGING people to work and they won't do it.

I went to work in the early 80's at 15 years old. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to. I bought my first car when I was 16, bought my first house when I was 20. Most all of my friends, if not all of my friends, worked part time jobs after school and weekends. They all paid for their own cars, and the vast majority of them never went to college. They just worked. They went into trades and they worked.

Wish I could find a couple of kids today that had the same values as the kids I grew up with. We could make a lot of money together.

Mike Henderson
03-19-2014, 7:54 PM
In our educational system there's a great sorting. There are kids who are smart, hard working and with lots of initiative. Many of those kids have parental support to help them make the right decisions. Those kids are mostly heading for college. And when you look at the kids heading to the prestige universities they're awe inspiring. If I had had to compete with those kids back in my time, I'd never have been accepted.

After that, you have kids who don't want college (for whatever reason, maybe they don't have good parental support to point them in the college direction). Some of those kids are smart, hard working and have initiative. They also have options, such as computer technical support, that call to them, and offer a very decent income. Clean work, indoor (air conditioned) and mentally challenging.

Then you're left with the others, who may not be as bright, and almost always do not have initiative. Also, kids are still forming, and often don't know what to do beyond what they're told to do. I think the best way to manage them is to give them specific tasks, and keep them busy.

Mike

Dan Hintz
03-19-2014, 8:04 PM
Wish I could find a couple of kids today that had the same values as the kids I grew up with. We could make a lot of money together.

If only you were closer, Steve, if only you were closer...

Gary Yoder
03-19-2014, 8:06 PM
It's a good scapegoat but the sense of entitlement is in the mirror of the parents raising these kids. The vast majority of them come from homes where parents work but have swaddled them through their entire lives making them work for nothing. It's done them a monumental disservice. It's nothing more than that.

Couldn't have said it better. We've been very fortunate. The shop I'm foreman at pays newcomers completely based on what is accomplished. their wage can be $0 - $20, purely on how they work. Granted most businesses aren't as production focused, and don't have a good way to track production. And yes, phones are not allowed on the shop floor.

Dave Sheldrake
03-19-2014, 8:59 PM
Comes down to three simple words guys

The Work Ethic


​They either have it or they don't

cheers

Dave

Roger Feeley
03-19-2014, 9:45 PM
Here in Kansas City, we have an excellent community college system. More than a few companies encourage their senior people to teach night classes. Those classes often have motiviated adults in them. Being a teacher gives a good opportunity to cherry pick the best students.

Brett Robson
03-19-2014, 11:18 PM
In my opinion this is a load of malarkey. No one in this situation is going to just sit around and get a check if they don't work. It just doesn't hold water.

This interview with a career welfare recipient might change your mind.


http://joeforamerica.com/2013/11/shock-interview-welfare-recipient-get-sit-home-get-smoke-weed-still-gonna-get-paid/

Dave Sheldrake
03-20-2014, 5:25 AM
Hiya Brett,

Sadly all too common here as well :(

cheers

Dave

Rich Engelhardt
03-20-2014, 7:34 AM
In my opinion this is a load of malarkey. No one in this situation is going to just sit around and get a check if they don't work. It just doesn't hold water.Next time you're up North my way, we can get together with my wife's family & you can see first hand how wrong you are ;).

Mark Bolton
03-20-2014, 7:54 AM
Next time you're up North my way, we can get together with my wife's family & you can see first hand how wrong you are ;).

Rich,
I have the exact situation in my own family. One in fact who has never worked a day, and others that have been on some form of "the dole" off and on their entire lives. I also operate in an area where being on some form of government assistance whether it be disability, medical card, food card, whatever, is very common.

My point is that these young people showing up to work and being flubs are that way thanks to their parents. They have yet to be corrupted by the system. They've been corrupted by coddling and never having to be responsible for anything or be held accountable for anything. Ive been watching progressing for 20 years now. They are not going to flub out of having a job with me and just stroll into some government office and be handed 25k+ per year in compensation. It's not that easy.

Further, a child raised in the manner most of us were is simply not going to see government assistance as an acceptable option just like we didn't. Their parents would have instilled a work ethic just as it is for us.

It starts at home. You can have your scapegoats all you want, but it starts in the mirror.

Rod Sheridan
03-20-2014, 9:46 AM
I doubt that it's a lot different in the US than in Canada.

I think there are several issues, so I'll start with employers.

- many employers no longer have any loyalty to, or interest in their employees. As soon as work is slow, the employee is gone.

- this atitude seems to generate one of lack of loyalty to the employer, on the employee's part. SO the employer invests money in the employee and the employee takes off as soon as they feel like it.

- in the past, apprenticeships were a 2 way street. An employer agreed in contract form to take the employee from zero to fully qualified in a period of time, for an agreed to pay progression, in return for certain conditions that the employee had to follow. It was very interesting seeing what my FIL had to agree to in England to become an apprentice. He had specific tasks that had to be completed on schedule, and his employer had to complete specific tasks, such as paying him to go to school for certain periods of time, and train him such that he could become a cabinetmaker.

There were always poorly motivated workers, just as there are poor employers who deserve every disaster in the making that walks through their door.

I think the difference now is that many young people lack the social skills to function effectively, as Mike mentioned however, there are many young people with superb skills heading for university that far outstrip our skills at that age.

Perhaps you need to have a formal plan in writing, explaining what you will do for the employee, as well as laying out what the employee is required to do. You may well have to teach them that they need to show up for work on time, and have to reward them for it somehow. (I know it sounds stupid, however a $20 gift certificate at the end of the month may be suitable)

I do feel for your issues, I'm of the age where I'm heading into early retirement in a few years, and I work in a high tech field. Everyone we hire has a post secondary degree, yet I go through the same things you're going through with the new employees. It takes us a while to teach them the social skills they lack, they have great technical knowledge, just no work place knowledge.

We've had to extend our probationary period from 3 to 6 months because we need longer to train and evaluate them, I kid you not, we have to teach college graduates to send an e-mail to purchasing to buy more pencils when we're down to one box left in the cupboard, otherwise they'll use the last one, and I guess expect their mother to take care of it.

Regards, Rod.

Jim Koepke
03-20-2014, 1:08 PM
One of my best employers preferred to hire people with no experience. I was one of the few who actually had a little experience in the field from taking a class in college. My college training was of little use in the "real world."

Another employer would only hire people who already had a job. He preferred a resume indicating a person had a good job, was laid off and as soon as possible found work in any field available while looking for a better job. His challenge was to keep his work place that "better job" for as long as possible.

The work place need rules to keep workers out of trouble. At work the time is 100% the employers. In reality there will be a small percentage of diverted time, but the main attention needs to be on the job.

Any new hire should get evaluated after the first day, first week, first month and so on. If possible after a short period step up their wage. Even half a dollar an hour feels good if it is granted after the first few weeks.

Have a long probationary period. The unemployment check collectors do not get a free ride when an employer says they are willing to hire. The check collectors are usually calling around for people that are not hiring. Anyone at any time that calls asking about your hiring situation should be told to come in and bring a resume. You may not need them today, but who knows what tomorrow brings. The check collectors will not come in and will not put you on their list of places they looked for work. If they do and the unemployment office calls, they could lose their checks.

I got one job when during the interview the manager was showing me around the shop. He asked me what I would do when times got slow. I looked around and mentioned the floor could use some sweeping and the trash could be taken out. He looked at that as taking initiative.

Be very careful about hiring friends or family of employees. Sometimes it can work out, more times it can be a disaster.

One of my bosses was impressed by my ability to turn what he termed "idiot work" into an enjoyable challenge. It was work that had to be done and my challenge was to get it done as fast and accurately as possible.

Maybe hand a prospective employee an example of a mistake and see what they say about it. One employer was always happy that I would check his math and layouts and sometimes find a way to use less stock cut a different way to do the job.

Expect to hire a totally incompetent employee and you will not be disappointed. However when they do well, you might be pleasantly surprised.

I am sure there are books on finding the winners and avoiding the losers.

jtk

Brian Elfert
03-20-2014, 1:22 PM
Rod kinda hit the nail on the head as far as employee and employer loyalty. As an employee why would I be loyal to my employer if my employer will lay me off the next time the quarterly report shows a slight dip in sales? Why can't the employer accept lower or no profit for a quarter or two until business comes back instead of laying off employees?

Many employers laid people off during the recession. Some employers that are loyal to their employees didn't lay off employees and instead cut pay and hours until business improved. Your employees will be much more loyal if they don't get laid off at the drop of a hat.

My employer for many years had a no layoff policy. Unfortunately, our industry has seen dramatic drops in revenue and large scale layoffs have been necessary. We have many 30+ year employees, but most are no longere as loyal as they were in the good days of the company.

Chuck Wintle
03-20-2014, 2:52 PM
Brian,

With more and more companies being run by people with fancy degrees such as an MBA the environment for the employee has changed. These college educated treat employees as a number only and wil lay them off at a drop of the hat.

Rod Sheridan
03-20-2014, 3:12 PM
Rod kinda hit the nail on the head as far as employee and employer loyalty. As an employee why would I be loyal to my employer if my employer will lay me off the next time the quarterly report shows a slight dip in sales? Why can't the employer accept lower or no profit for a quarter or two until business comes back instead of laying off employees?

Many employers laid people off during the recession. Some employers that are loyal to their employees didn't lay off employees and instead cut pay and hours until business improved. Your employees will be much more loyal if they don't get laid off at the drop of a hat.

My employer for many years had a no layoff policy. Unfortunately, our industry has seen dramatic drops in revenue and large scale layoffs have been necessary. We have many 30+ year employees, but most are no longere as loyal as they were in the good days of the company.

Brian, have you read the book Spark?

It's the story of Lincoln Elecric and their no layoff policy starting in the 1930"s........Excellent reading

Scott Shepherd
03-20-2014, 3:41 PM
Brian,

With more and more companies being run by people with fancy degrees such as an MBA the environment for the employee has changed. These college educated treat employees as a number only and wil lay them off at a drop of the hat.

Oh, we had to go there, did we? Pushed my button....

I worked in a manufacturing environment and had worked my way up to senior management, running the manufacturing engineering department. We had a layoff and it lasted for a month or so, maybe a little more. Then they called them all back. They worked for a couple of months and we got called back in and were told they were going to layoff the machinists and assembly workers again. Not because we didn't have the work, but because 1 month looked a little slow. All the months after that were booked solid. I recall telling them it was one of the dumbest things they could ever do. All the "book smart" people disagreed with me strongly. I said "Here's what's going to happen, you're going to lay them off. The people that are good and going to have another job by the end of the week, so they are gone for good. The people who can't find another job are going to tough it out and come back. So all your good people will leave, all the people who aren't that good, or even people you wish wouldn't come back, will now be your primary work force. Your name in the area will be trashed to skilled labor. You'll be known as the people that lay people off every time things get slow. So that'll keep out any highly qualified people. What you'll end up with is a shop full of people who no one else will hire or people too lazy to go look for a job. You're going to wreck your skilled workforce and do permanent harm to your ability to ever get another skilled person to step foot on the shop floor".

They all thought I was crazy. Luckily, before the scheduled axe date, some sales guy got wind of it all and talked a customer into pulling some orders forward, which stopped it all.

It's amazing how many "book smart" people think that skilled labor is meaningless. They have no lives, no families, no bills, no dreams, no nothing.

Lee Schierer
03-20-2014, 8:01 PM
Oh, we had to go there, did we? Pushed my button....

I worked in a manufacturing environment and had worked my way up to senior management, running the manufacturing engineering department. We had a layoff and it lasted for a month or so, maybe a little more. Then they called them all back. They worked for a couple of months and we got called back in and were told they were going to layoff the machinists and assembly workers again. Not because we didn't have the work, but because 1 month looked a little slow. All the months after that were booked solid. I recall telling them it was one of the dumbest things they could ever do. All the "book smart" people disagreed with me strongly. I said "Here's what's going to happen, you're going to lay them off. The people that are good and going to have another job by the end of the week, so they are gone for good. The people who can't find another job are going to tough it out and come back. So all your good people will leave, all the people who aren't that good, or even people you wish wouldn't come back, will now be your primary work force. Your name in the area will be trashed to skilled labor. You'll be known as the people that lay people off every time things get slow. So that'll keep out any highly qualified people. What you'll end up with is a shop full of people who no one else will hire or people too lazy to go look for a job. You're going to wreck your skilled workforce and do permanent harm to your ability to ever get another skilled person to step foot on the shop floor".

They all thought I was crazy. Luckily, before the scheduled axe date, some sales guy got wind of it all and talked a customer into pulling some orders forward, which stopped it all.

It's amazing how many "book smart" people think that skilled labor is meaningless. They have no lives, no families, no bills, no dreams, no nothing.

It's not always the people with MBA's, it usually starts with the accountants who report all the money going to payroll with no "revenue" to cover it. What they want is to aly off the entire work force each minute that the wages aren't offset by the revenue. I even told one once that we could lay everyone off and he would have lots of profit, but only for one day.

Dave Sheldrake
03-21-2014, 6:23 AM
The day I forget the people who work for me are the one's who pay me I'll pack the whole lot up. The most valuable assets my company has....no... OUR company has, is it's staff.

Without me they would be working somewhere else, without them I'd be working FOR somebody else.

cheers

Dave

Chuck Wintle
03-21-2014, 6:50 AM
Brian, have you read the book Spark?

It's the story of Lincoln Electric and their no layoff policy starting in the 1930"s........Excellent reading

Companies that actually care about their employees are few and far between, IMHO, but apparently they do exist. With global competition and foreign goods coming into the country very cheaply this puts the well paid american worker at a distinct disadvantage. But I am sure everyone know this. American companies relocating to china and elsewhere to have the cheap labor and lax corporate laws can then flood the home market with cheaply made goods but still at a high cost to the consumer. The employer may feel less and less loyalty to the employees when faced with cheaper goods on the market place. So what to do with a thousand people who are not competitive for a given industry? the choices are difficult and the worker gets caught in the squeeze.

Brian Ashton
03-21-2014, 11:43 AM
it's hard to find people that want a career, not a job.

Interesting statement... Why would someone want to make a career out of being under paid - unless they're dumb and have nothing in life to strive for. Unless you live at your parent and or plan to stay single and live in shared housing for the rest of your life it's nearly impossible to live reasonably on 18/hr. I'm not saying your too cheap, it's obvious your line of business can't pay more so you're going to have to get used to a revolving door of employees or go it alone.

Also you say no one is applying for jobs at your firm... Maybe you need to look at what or how you're presenting the job in the ad or other methods you use to get he word out -- it maybe a real turn off to anyone with enough intelligence to walk up right.

Also what's the industry. Maybe you're line of work is a real turn off period.

Alan Bienlein
03-21-2014, 12:40 PM
The day I forget the people who work for me are the one's who pay me I'll pack the whole lot up. The most valuable assets my company has....no... OUR company has, is it's staff.

Without me they would be working somewhere else, without them I'd be working FOR somebody else.

cheers

Dave

You said a mouthful there!

A lot of employers seem to have forgotten that lately. I'll also say that no one really "wants" to work but they need to work to maintain the life style they desire.

I worked two jobs at the age of 13 and still went to school. I liked the money. Got married at the age of 18 with a child on the way so my reasons changed. I even went to work on my sons first birthday thinking it would help me get ahead in the company. I've worked many holidays when asked and did what ever was required and more to get the job done.

Did any of that matter to the employers? No because I ended up leaving them so I could advance myself. I finally realized I had enough Jan. 8th 2010 when my best employer at the time to work for laid me off but kept some pretty lousy employees instead. I guess working six and seven days a week from before sun up to after sun down and driving 200 miles round trip to the job every day wasn't enough for them. For six months straight I never really saw my family.

I no longer have loyalty to any one other than myself and my family now! That last employer was the straw that broke the camels back. I'll come in do whats needed to get the job done but I won't ever let poor planing from the employer ever become an emergency on my part again. I'll look him in the eye and tell him he should have looked ahead.

As far as being able to live on $18 an hour if you can't do that then something is wrong with you and you need to live within your means. I remember making half of that and I still put a roof over my families head, food on the table, clothes on their backs and still took vacations and did other things.

Stephen Tashiro
03-21-2014, 12:40 PM
Hire people who are already working. Lure them away from their current jobs.

Steve Peterson
03-21-2014, 1:10 PM
I finally realized I had enough Jan. 8th 2010 when my best employer at the time to work for laid me off but kept some pretty lousy employees instead. I guess working six and seven days a week from before sun up to after sun down and driving 200 miles round trip to the job every day wasn't enough for them. For six months straight I never really saw my family.

I no longer have loyalty to any one other than myself and my family now! That last employer was the straw that broke the camels back. I'll come in do whats needed to get the job done but I won't ever let poor planing from the employer ever become an emergency on my part again. I'll look him in the eye and tell him he should have looked ahead.

This is visible recently in large corporations. Economic conditions have been getting worse for at least the last 20 years, yet corporations are still expected to bring in larger profits each quarter. They push the employees harder and harder, then resorted to offshoring to reduce costs further. It is no wonder that employees are not loyal if the employer is not loyal to them.

Steve

Brian Elfert
03-21-2014, 1:12 PM
As far as being able to live on $18 an hour if you can't do that then something is wrong with you and you need to live within your means. I remember making half of that and I still put a roof over my families head, food on the table, clothes on their backs and still took vacations and did other things.

In what fantasy land are you going to support a family on $18,720 a year if you are making $9 an hour without government assistance? If taxes are 10% of your pay then you have a take home of $1404 a month. A 2 bedroom apartment is easily $700 a month. A family of three could pretty easily spend $500 a month on food. Utilities probably $100 a month. Car insurance and gas maybe $150 a month. I'm already at $1450 a month and no money for clothes, vacations, or any other expenses. If your employer provides health insurance they will probably charge you at least $300 a month for a family policy.

I guess if you had two $9 an hour jobs full time you might make some headway, but you would be working almost 12 hours every day of the week. You could I suppose find a cheap 1 bedroom apartment for $500 a month and the kid sleeps on the couch and cut your food budget to $300 a month, but what kind of living would that be?

Steve Peterson
03-21-2014, 1:27 PM
I went to work in the early 80's at 15 years old. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to. I bought my first car when I was 16, bought my first house when I was 20. Most all of my friends, if not all of my friends, worked part time jobs after school and weekends. They all paid for their own cars, and the vast majority of them never went to college. They just worked. They went into trades and they worked.

There is a big difference in the work environment today relative to the 60s and 70s. Back then, anyone that wanted to work could find a job and support a family. Most of those jobs are gone now. An 18 year old can expect only a minimum wage job with little hope of advancement. A cheap house where I am at in California is going to run at least $150K. There are not many 20 year olds buying houses without significant help from their parents.

Jobs in this country have become polarized with a few high end jobs that pay well and many low end service jobs for everyone else. The best way to get one of the good jobs is to have a real college education. I am trying to make my kids aware of why they need to go to college and hopefully will be able to help pay for it without them feeling entitled to a handout.

Steve

Mike Henderson
03-21-2014, 2:01 PM
Jobs in this country have become polarized with a few high end jobs that pay well and many low end service jobs for everyone else. The best way to get one of the good jobs is to have a real college education. I am trying to make my kids aware of why they need to go to college and hopefully will be able to help pay for it without them feeling entitled to a handout.

Steve
I would add that not any college education will get you a good job. There's an old joke that a history degree prepares you to either teach or sell insurance (you can substitute many other subjects besides history). Too many degrees are just "dilettante degrees". It might be something that the kid is interested in but it won't lead to a job. Examples: Art history, ethnic studies.

You need a degree in something that employers are asking for. Computer science, engineering, accounting, economics, finance are a few that come to mind immediately.

And it's best if you get a degree at a real university and not at one of those diploma mill for-profit schools. You'll get a very good education at almost any major state university.

Mike

David Weaver
03-21-2014, 2:06 PM
In what fantasy land are you going to support a family on $18,720 a year if you are making $9 an hour without government assistance? If taxes are 10% of your pay then you have a take home of $1404 a month. A 2 bedroom apartment is easily $700 a month. A family of three could pretty easily spend $500 a month on food. Utilities probably $100 a month. Car insurance and gas maybe $150 a month. I'm already at $1450 a month and no money for clothes, vacations, or any other expenses. If your employer provides health insurance they will probably charge you at least $300 a month for a family policy.

I guess if you had two $9 an hour jobs full time you might make some headway, but you would be working almost 12 hours every day of the week. You could I suppose find a cheap 1 bedroom apartment for $500 a month and the kid sleeps on the couch and cut your food budget to $300 a month, but what kind of living would that be?

There are plenty of people living like that, but instead of there being one individual on that pay level, it's two working that pay level. Back when I worked in a cabinet factory, the folks there were making what would be equivalent to about $13 an hour now and though nobody was getting rich, I didn't see anyone underfed, and in more than one case there were people picking up OT hours to put a kid through college. Folks now would tell them to tell their kids to take a loan, but I understand what they were doing and why.

It's possible to do it, but there was no internet back then and no cell phones. I don't recall people feeling entitled to everything that was marketed toward them, and there weren't many brand new cars in the parking lot at the factory. Those people worked their butts off - it was an assembly line place and the speed of production was always a half of a notch faster than you could comfortably work briskly.

One of the guys working a clamp at the factory (a clamp is something where the face frames and sides and back are jointed together) had a masters in math from MIT, and at the time, I suppose he was just looking for something he could do with it. I guess it might've been a theoretical math degree and not applied, because applied math was pretty easy to use to find a job. Most of the people with a theoretical math background that wasn't a ph.D ended up getting a teaching certificate.

Brian Ashton
03-21-2014, 2:24 PM
There are plenty of people living like that, but instead of there being one individual on that pay level, it's two working that pay level. Back when I worked in a cabinet factory, the folks there were making what would be equivalent to about $13 an hour now and though nobody was getting rich, I didn't see anyone underfed, and in more than one case there were people picking up OT hours to put a kid through college. Folks now would tell them to tell their kids to take a loan, but I understand what they were doing and why.


When you say living I think that's a bit of a stretch, existing is more like it in this day n age.

So when was back then. The last time I thought 13/hr was a good wage was at least 25 years ago when I was banging nails for a living.

David Weaver
03-21-2014, 2:43 PM
They were making about $9 an hour in 2000 or so. The factory has since closed.

two people with no kids and smart decision making could live on that comfortably where I'm from. Many did. They don't live the way you and I would think of it - they buy their clothes overstock, one pair of boots a year and one pair of shoes a year (max) and don't waste much. There's no shortage of folks like that where I'm from.

The internet and the culture of want has really narrowed the number of folks like that, though. I come from an old german area, and people didn't buy things they didn't need - even 15-20 years ago. The saturation of media and marketing now has really gone into turbo mode since then, and what was a culture of mom and pop restaurants and development even back then has been supplanted by strip malls and franchises.

If one lived by the same principles those folks did, they could live the same way. Can you wear used clothes and be contented? I could. My wife would absolutely never tolerate it. Could you live in 1200 square feet of outdated house? I could. My wife would absolutely never tolerate. The fact that I haven't had to live like that has allowed me to indulge myself in some really ridiculous things like buying several dozen guitars over the years and God knows how many sharpening stones. If I had that lifestyle, as much as I can't stand debt, I never would've gotten most of those things, and for sure my wife would've passed me by.

I'm not saying it's a good wage that allows you to have 2500 square feet of updated housing and two new cars with a gold-tier medical plan, but I guarantee those folks lived a much more comfortable life than my grandparents did and my grandparents were not forced to - they did it out of grit and determination, and stinginess. It's our perspective now that's a lot different.

Brian Ashton
03-21-2014, 3:08 PM
You're talking 13, 15 and 20 years ago. And you think 2 people today could live comfortably on 18000/yr - where in one or the others aging parents basement until they die. I ain't buying it - so to speak.

David Weaver
03-21-2014, 3:28 PM
You're talking 13, 15 and 20 years ago. And you think 2 people today could live comfortably on 18000/yr - where in one or the others aging parents basement until they die. I ain't buying it - so to speak.

I didn't say 18,000 a year. Someone else said that. I said $13 an hour which at 2080 hours (a standard workweek for 52 weeks) would be 27,040. In a lot of cases, husbands and wives both worked in the factory, and you could get OT during the summer, but the hours were sometimes less than full in the winter, so it probably evened out overall.

It would've been about $18,000 an hour 13 or 14 years ago if you want to stick strictly to the numbers.

There were 500 poeple working in that factory, and they were generally well adjusted folks who were getting by just fine, as long as they didn't develop expensive habits. The only way you could really get them mad at you was if you did something to slow production #s down on the line (they got a very tiny variable comp piece based on how many units were made each week). You hit a red button to stop the line so you could catch up at your station and you got a dozen people giving you a dirty look immediately.

(I get my $13 an hour figure by pegging wage inflation for those types of jobs at 3% per year, an increase factor of 1.47. I doubt they'd actually pay $13 now, but maybe they do (there are other plants still open)).

You could say gas and everything has gone up faster than inflation, and it has. The factory was in town, most of the folks lived in town or close to it, and forced gas costs to get to work wouldn't have much effect.

John Pratt
03-21-2014, 4:08 PM
In what fantasy land are you going to support a family on $18,720 a year if you are making $9 an hour without government assistance? If taxes are 10% of your pay then you have a take home of $1404 a month. A 2 bedroom apartment is easily $700 a month. A family of three could pretty easily spend $500 a month on food. Utilities probably $100 a month. Car insurance and gas maybe $150 a month. I'm already at $1450 a month and no money for clothes, vacations, or any other expenses. If your employer provides health insurance they will probably charge you at least $300 a month for a family policy.

I guess if you had two $9 an hour jobs full time you might make some headway, but you would be working almost 12 hours every day of the week. You could I suppose find a cheap 1 bedroom apartment for $500 a month and the kid sleeps on the couch and cut your food budget to $300 a month, but what kind of living would that be?

Sorry to those who may be offended by this response; offense is not intended and understandably different circumstances affect different people differently.

1. $9 an hour (or approximately minimum wage) was never intended to be a "living wage". It was intended to be a stepping stone to higher wages at jobs which require those skills learned at the minimum wage job or while doing an apprenticeship.
2. "If taxes are 10%" - People earning minimum wage supporting a family do not pay federal income taxes after deductions, exemptions, and credits.
3. When I was growing up the consensus was that you are first fruitful and then multiply, not the other way around. I know that may seem harsh, but why are people continuing to have families that they cannot possibly afford on minimum wage.

People complain they cant find a good job that pays a "Living wage" but few are willing to do the work necessary to earn the skills and climb the ladder of success.

Caveat: I know there are those that have been placed in unfortunate circumstances and times are tough for periods. Those people have their own experiences and the above may not apply. However, my parents always said that even the sun gives way to rain clouds now and then. The trick is to know when to carry an umbrella.

I have had tough times in my life but I always tried to make sure I was prepared with money set back for emergencies. An emergency fund and the belief that there is no job beneath me while I am using that fund, and looking for a better job has served me pretty well.

David Weaver
03-21-2014, 4:16 PM
In the case of the folks I mentioned above, the factory was shut down about 3 or 4 or 5 years ago (can't remember now). I have slowly started to see houses those folks own ending up in sheriffs sales. In some cases, the values of the homes didn't make sense given the wages they were getting, and I know the folks (and their kids in some cases) and know they didn't live in those houses when I was working with them. They were sold houses they never would've paid off even if they continued working.

I really do think that the mentality has changed a whole whole lot even in 15 years, about what you should do vs. what someone will allow you to do if you want to bury yourself in debt.

Larry Edgerton
03-21-2014, 4:50 PM
I am more inclined to agree with the hire older point of view. Its what I do for the most part.

Employees can ruin your life, or at least make it so its not any fun. Add to that what the government has done to punish small businesses and it is very hard to make a profit on employees in many cases. So I go for the least amount of headache. I hire older experienced employees and pay more, and if they are not working out I fire them without a second thought.

The best crew I ever had was a crew with an average age of 56, and I was the youngest at 52.

Larry

Steve Rozmiarek
03-21-2014, 5:21 PM
Ironically, I'm wading through payroll reports, and needed a break. Thanks for mixing work and pleasure for me guys....

My opinion, there are still massive differences in regions between wages, which are balanced out by huge cost of living differences. That is changing, like David mentioned, but it will always be to some extent. I pay 4x as much now as I did in 2000 per employee. Also half the employees to do the same work, because of technology. Makes for a goofy cost of living in this region, as some little local towns don't have enough housing, so prices are stupid for real estate, and 20 miles away, they can't give houses away. It averages out though, so housing has been fairly constant over the span. What has changed is transportation cost, food, health care, clothing, etc. All the stuff that is the same price everywhere has massively increased in price.

Totally agree with you Larry. I have seriously considered downsizing to a one person operation to eliminate this, but it's just not possible in my sector. I'm stuck, and I hate it. Heck, I have good employees too, but the regs just make it barely worth the effort to risk my future to hire anyone. Anytime you have to hire someone to manage the compliance issues of a new hire, something is broke. I'm the one taking the risk, I shouldn't be the cheapest labor in the business.

glenn bradley
03-21-2014, 5:49 PM
I feel your pain. It took us a year to find a network engineer. You'd be amazed what some people think a network engineer is :D:D:D. It does break my heart to see the unemployment figures when most employers I talk to are starved for help. It sometimes seems like we have an overload of unskilled folks disgruntled about not being able to find a job in an ever more sophisticated workplace. Even our "grunt" jobs require someone who can at least get to work on time, understand and follow simple instructions and stay focused on what they are supposed to be doing. Your stories of sleeping, texting, claiming to know something that they obviously don't "employees" is all too familiar.

Greg Portland
03-21-2014, 5:57 PM
In our educational system there's a great sorting. There are kids who are smart, hard working and with lots of initiative. Many of those kids have parental support to help them make the right decisions. Those kids are mostly heading for college. And when you look at the kids heading to the prestige universities they're awe inspiring. If I had had to compete with those kids back in my time, I'd never have been accepted.

After that, you have kids who don't want college (for whatever reason, maybe they don't have good parental support to point them in the college direction).This attitude is why there are no good kids entering the trades. There are a large number of kids who get talked into going to college (local state U, etc.) because our culture perceives that to be the only path to success. They end up with a large debt and no job... these people aren't looking for $10/hr positions. They feel that they are entitled to a large salary because they are a college graduate.

Lack of VoTech in high school and our culture of pushing as many kids as possible into colleges (which exist to make $$$) is the biggest problem.

Rick Potter
03-21-2014, 7:05 PM
I am with Mike on that. Not enough kids are able to take vocational training. Of course, we as consumers looking for the best deal, encourage anyone who owns a set of cheap tools to advertise himself as a Handyman, non licensed electrician, plumber, etc. Years ago, I remember drywallers going on strike because the large home builders were hiring cheap labor to do their work. That would be about when 'popcorn ceilings' became common.

The cheap help won, and over the years and untold numbers of tract houses later, are finally good at it. Now, they are being replaced by cheaper help.

Of course the original drywallers started out as replacements for plasterers. It's a downward spiral......in many fields.

Everyone knows someone who can work on their computer.....how many know a good Handyman?

Rick Potter

Brian Elfert
03-22-2014, 12:04 AM
Sorry to those who may be offended by this response; offense is not intended and understandably different circumstances affect different people differently.

1. $9 an hour (or approximately minimum wage) was never intended to be a "living wage". It was intended to be a stepping stone to higher wages at jobs which require those skills learned at the minimum wage job or while doing an apprenticeship.
2. "If taxes are 10%" - People earning minimum wage supporting a family do not pay federal income taxes after deductions, exemptions, and credits.


Everyone pays FICA except very limited circumstances. FICA alone is over 7% so between FICA, federal, and state taxes I think 10% is pretty close. I had a summer job where I didn't pay FICA for several years, but I think the exemption was based on it being a seasonal job. (They also didn't pay overtime because it was seasonal.)

Anyone with a family making only $9 an hour is going to be eligible for various government assistance programs if they choose to sign up. The original person saying it was possible to live $9 an hour didn't indicate any government assistance. You really aren't making it on $9 an hour if you need government assistance.

Brian Ashton
03-22-2014, 8:50 AM
They were making about $9 an hour in 2000 or so. The factory has since closed.


I didn't say 18,000 a year. Someone else said that. I said $13 an hour which at 2080 hours (a standard workweek for 52 weeks) would be 27,040.


Ok You didn't say people were making 18000/yr 13 years ago. But someone has used your account and said it. 9*2080=~18700

Brian Ashton
03-22-2014, 9:06 AM
I am more inclined to agree with the hire older point of view. Its what I do for the most part.

SNIP

In this parched country it appears being around 35 is considered too old. I have for the past 5 years been studying to obtain two degrees, accounting and envr management. Now that I'm graduated I've been on the hunt for work... Compared to aussies I look very young for my age - apparently around 35. I've been told 4 times so far during interviews that I am too old to work at their firms. But! they also say in the very next breath that they're frustrated with the 20 somethings because they hire them, put them into a ca or cpa program, and then the little turds decide they don't like accounting and quit after a year or two with little notice... And here I am saying to them I'm wanting to cement my future in one maybe two firms at what they think is the grand old age of 35 or so... And the irony in that is the people doing the hiring are all mid 40 to 50s. My conclusion is employers are just as stupid as gen y. We have had plenty through our house over the years doing university stays and they can't even load a dishwasher without instruction; one didn't even know what the recycling bin was for - dumb as dog doo.

I think one of the key indicators I've come to know of whether a gen y is worth the air they breathe is whether they play some sort of team sport. I play a lot of sports where I'm often the oldest by 20 plus years. The effort it takes to get off the couch for something other than to grab another beer and exercise muscles, other than those needed for texting or gaming shows quite a bit of initiative and motivation. And if they're good at it, other than some meat head sport like rugby league, it also shows they have some intelligence. If I were in the position where I was hiring, and with what I've learned over the past number of years about the young working generation, I'd be looking at what they do with their time outside of their jobs more than their work experience.

David Weaver
03-22-2014, 9:17 AM
I said 18000 a year 13-14 years ago. Then I showed that it's probably in the ballpark for that to be equivalent to $13 an hour now. you can't mentally frame your expenses now and compare them against someone's income 13-14 years ago and call it a wash. Adjustment in time means you need to adjust the nominal dollar amount to keep the comparison on the same basis. To get an idea of what it would feel like living on 18k 13-14 years ago, a starting point would be to visualize what it would be like to live on 26-27k now. I knew a lot of those people well from working with them for three years. Very few of them gave off a downtrodden or near emergency poverty vibe. Actually, I can't remember any who did. On 18k. Some of them had spouses who made more, but a large number of them, both sides worked in the factory.

The same folks who were living on $9 an hour then could live on 13 now, and they were able to do so with relative comfort given the income level. Partly because of where they lived, and partly because of how they made an earnest effort not to spend on things they couldn't afford.

My dad grew up in a family of 9 kids, supported by a small farm (that the kids did most of the work on) and a court recordkeeper salary. That was a lot tighter, by my dad's father still managed to save for retirement. Of the 9, my father was the only one to go to college, and there was enough extra money that, my grandfather (despite supporting 9 kids and a stay at home mother) paid for his first two years of schooling. No public assistance for any of them except one of the kids who is truly disabled, and that wasn't until the adult disabled child was in his late 40s or so.

I hear "can't" from you and a lot of other people, but there is a difference between can't and won't. It's usually "won't" or "refuse to figure out how to". I could go through a bullet point list of things they didn't do in my dad's family that the average person does that the average person doesn't need to do - like they didn't get many new clothes, they cut each others' hair, they didn't waste money at restaurants and they didn't have expensive hobbies. All of the kids turned out fine. Those kinds of things (that save money) don't have the same negative impact on true quality of life that going without food or without shelter, etc, does.

If someone would've made fun of any of their haircuts (which actually looked fine), they would've put that person in line, so they didn't worry about any stigma that comes with being poor.

Rich Riddle
03-22-2014, 9:26 AM
It does break my heart to see the unemployment figures when most employers I talk to are starved for help. It sometimes seems like we have an overload of unskilled folks disgruntled about not being able to find a job in an ever more sophisticated workplace. Even our "grunt" jobs require someone who can at least get to work on time, understand and follow simple instructions and stay focused on what they are supposed to be doing. Your stories of sleeping, texting, claiming to know something that they obviously don't "employees" is all too familiar.
You very eloquently described my sentiments. It seems folks think employers should be happy with a body and then take the years to train them with skills. After that the employees jump ship for a place that pays a few cents more an hour. People need to realize those days passed in the USA. Now employers expect skills. If potential employees lack skills then they can expect unemployment or low wages.

As far as workers go, I have found women just beyond child-bearing years to be the most productive and cost-effective employees. That selection criteria might infringe on a few rules, regulations, and such though.

Mel Fulks
03-22-2014, 9:50 AM
David, that's a good essay. My own parents were always thrifty and did a lot with little . Bought and sold property etc.
When they borrowed money the lenders were astounded at what they were able to do with their income. When I was younger some thrift measures seemed pointless, but I eventually understood that though some measures are more effective than others, thrift (like safe use of machines ) is easier through constant habit than deciding when it is
REALLY needed.

Brian Ashton
03-22-2014, 10:17 AM
You very eloquently described my sentiments. It seems folks think employers should be happy with a body and then take the years to train them with skills. After that the employees jump ship for a place that pays a few cents more an hour. People need to realize those days passed in the USA. Now employers expect skills. If potential employees lack skills then they can expect unemployment or low wages.

As far as workers go, I have found women just beyond child-bearing years to be the most productive and cost-effective employees. That selection criteria might infringe on a few rules, regulations, and such though.

Ya know what I see most often in these debates is there are two camps of thought where neither side cares about knowing or understanding the others situation, needs and wants, as can be seen in what you said. You, and most others, say employers demand skilled workers... So where to you suppose those people gain those skills? As everyone knows you don't gain them from an education you gain them by putting in the time to learn the job. But! to get those skill a person has to work at a job that pays no more than a subsistence wage with no prospects of getting financially ahead if they stay with that organization... So eventually they leave to find a better job that will allow them to get financially further ahead once their skills become marketable... Leaving the jilted employer to moan about training up people and how employees have no loyalty. And they're not wanting or willing often to acknowledge that their pay scale guarantees that people will be forced to move on if they want to strive for better in their life... And! then what often happens, the first employer, who has been frustrated by a revolving door of employees, stops training new employees and simply starts treating new employees like they're simply disposable... So now the employees are even more frustrated and disheartened and leave even quicker and the employer is left to deal with all the unambitious rabble...

Rich Riddle
03-22-2014, 10:25 AM
Brian,

It the United States there are many community and technical college programs as well as vocational skills to teach the requisite skills one needs. Invest in yourself, don't expect another to invest in you. Your skills go with you, why would some business pay for some skills that doesn't stay with the business? Seems people feel employers owe them more than the wages for which they work; they don't. My employer pays me for my work, nothing more is expected of them.

I said women beyond child bearing years, not some who chav had children. There is a difference.

Larry Edgerton
03-22-2014, 10:29 AM
. When I was younger some thrift measures seemed pointless, but I eventually understood that though some measures are more effective than others, thrift (like safe use of machines ) is easier through constant habit than deciding when it is
REALLY needed.

I am learning this late in life, out of necessity unfortunately. I now ask myself if I really need just about everything that I buy and I am finding that I was quite an impulse buyer when I had money.

Larry

Brian Ashton
03-22-2014, 10:53 AM
I said 18000 a year 13-14 years ago.

SNIP




Alright now I got where you're coming from

For the most part what you describe is a subsistence life. Not trying to denigrate it but essentially those people have no ambition to do more, they're satisfied with what they have; nothing wrong with that at all. So my question is why should everyone else have to think they're doing something wrong because they want more out of their life, which would be the vast majority of people on the planet.

The flaw also in that logic is those people live in such communities where they can afford to on low wages and it's acceptable to live a recycling (for lack of a better word) life style. Most likely I suspect this has a lot to do with the majority not wanting to live their. Therefore the cost of living is quite low by comparison and as you say people can express their own unique fashion sense without ridicule. Unfortunately those sorts of living standards don't fit in well in cities or are simply unobtainable, which is where the vast majority live. I'm moving to London in 4 weeks, if I showed up at job interviews in out of style hand me downs that have been adjusted by myself or my wife and sporting a hair cut done by her also I would have no chance of getting hired at anything other than an op shop (which would pay a wage that is impossible to live on). You've probably seen many times over the decades what happens to such communities when they start becoming places where the majority do want to live. The "cashed up" style conscious hordes of new comers start encroaching on that little piece of paradise (the very things that brings the new comers in in the first place and then they go and destroy it) and upset the balance that had been nurtured and perfected over many decades. Those that lived what was a a comfortable subsistence life style, often for decades in such areas, are forced to leave because living there on the wages they make becomes increasingly impossible and the new comers take over and make them feel unwelcome.

David Weaver
03-22-2014, 11:00 AM
David, that's a good essay. My own parents were always thrifty and did a lot with little . Bought and sold property etc.
When they borrowed money the lenders were astounded at what they were able to do with their income. When I was younger some thrift measures seemed pointless, but I eventually understood that though some measures are more effective than others, thrift (like safe use of machines ) is easier through constant habit than deciding when it is
REALLY needed.

That's a good way to put it, mel. Their thrift is like fitness is to some other people. They work on it, they think about it, it's satisfying. When someone is really thrifty (the grandparents on the other side were out of want and not necessity), it usually leads to a measure of freedom of choice, and that's why they were that way. My dad told me after I grew up that he never went to a restaurant until he was 16. But, as kids in the summer, they had pickup baseball games every day, they hunted and fished and I don't get the sense that he'd trade his childhood for one that cost 6 times as much and involved a lot of restaurants and shopping.

That thrift carried over to when I was a kid. It drove me nuts when I was a kid, but I get it now, even though I don't necessarily do it that well. I notice it just in things that we didn't eat when I was a kid (we didn't have expensive cuts of meat, we didn't have asparagus, if you go through the top 50% of foods in terms of cost, we didn't eat it, but at the same time, my mother was ardent anti sugar and anti fat, so we didn't eat white bread or drink soda. I don't feel cheated.

Thrift is sort of a science, but it's looked down on now unless it's intended to sell a book or a program. if you actually do it on a day to day basis, people will be critical of you. When I moved to the city, I met plenty of people with 6 figure salaries who were waiting for their bonus each year to catch up on their credit cards, stretching to buy houses that they can't really afford and crying poor. It's like moving to another dimension. I got dumped by a girl at one point because she said she "couldn't see herself dating someone who changes their own oil instead of paying someone else to do it". :)

Julie Moriarty
03-22-2014, 11:05 AM
Regarding cell phones on the jobsite - I worked in construction for 34 years. When cell phones became popular, use of them was quickly banned during working hours. When I was running the job, I'd simply say it was a safety issue. The more years that passed, the more common it became that electricians who came on my job were upset with that rule, the younger they were, the more offended they were. When I heard a protest I would tell them, "The world ran just fine before instant communication. You'll make it until break or lunch."

David Weaver
03-22-2014, 11:07 AM
Alright now I got where you're coming from

For the most part what you describe is a subsistence life. Not trying to denigrate it but essentially those people have no ambition to do more, they're satisfied with what they have; nothing wrong with that at all. So my question is why should everyone else have to think they're doing something wrong because they want more out of their life, which would be the vast majority of people on the planet.


Most of the world lives a subsistence lifestyle. They live pretty well, because they're satisfied with fewer clothes from consignment stores, and second hand places instead of the delusion of saving money by taking coupons to macy's. What they won't have is expensive disposal of money with nothing in return (going to a restaurant, appetizer, fillet, two glasses of wine and dessert...that kind of thing), or two late model cars all the time. Subsistence living is something more like never having any disposable income at all, like subsistence farmers used to live. They were masters of depriving themselves of pleasure that cost money, and looked for satisfaction elsewhere.

If people want to live better than that, I have no issue with that at all - everyone I'm around now lives a lot higher on the hog than that, it's suburbia here. But the other end of the bargain is if you want that money to spend, you have to figure out how to make yourself worth that money to someone else. Unskilled labor doesn't return two glasses of wine and fillet mignon and retirement savings to boot, it never has - the delusion of society is that the large mass of folks can live like that based on some slices where society in general has spent with abandon supported more by borrowing than production.

This is a topic that is somewhat interesting to me, just because it involves numbers moving from one place to another. It's been quite a long time since western society has produced as much as it consumes, and we have a delusional expectation of what we should have vs. what we create because of it. It's pretty much at all levels. We also have completely lost the ability to delay gratification which is key to all of the stuff that I've described previously. I think the ability to delay gratification makes for more contented and happy individuals, but it's looked down upon now.

Brian Ashton
03-22-2014, 11:27 AM
Brian,

It the United States there are many community and technical college programs as well as vocational skills to teach the requisite skills one needs. Invest in yourself, don't expect another to invest in you. Your skills go with you, why would some business pay for some skills that doesn't stay with the business? Seems people feel employers owe them more than the wages for which they work; they don't. My employer pays me for my work, nothing more is expected of them.

I said women beyond child bearing years, not some who chav had children. There is a difference.

The problem in what your saying is a downward spiral. No one gets anywhere with it. Don't want to skill people up, just want them to come with the prerequisite skills - then eventually no one will have adequate skills. Pay low wages - no one stays for longer than they need to. And it just keeps going round and round until the bottom is reached and by then recovery is near impossible. I tend to disagree with colleges or universities being places where people are taught the requisite skills needed to be good at ones job. They give a bit of a start point but the vast majority of skills are developed on the job in the real world.

Ya sorry about the last sentence it was a partial thought I had intended to delete but missed a bit...

Jim Koepke
03-22-2014, 12:11 PM
I got dumped by a girl at one point because she said she "couldn't see herself dating someone who changes their own oil instead of paying someone else to do it".

Surely your life is better for it.

Have you ever thought of looking her up and sending her a "Thank You" card?

There probably aren't any "You dumped me and my life got better" cards.

jtk

David Weaver
03-22-2014, 12:16 PM
Surely your life is better for it.

Have you ever thought of looking her up and sending her a "Thank You" card?

There probably aren't any "You dumped me and my life got better" cards.

jtk

No, i never looked her up :) Remembering back about what her expectations where, she will need to end up with a surgeon or something, and I'll never have that earning power. A dozen plus years on, I appreciate having a spouse who has a similar background and similar money habits.

Steve Rozmiarek
03-22-2014, 12:23 PM
Rich, I agree, certain groups of people have collected the right mix of life experience to excel at work. I'd agree with your selected group. I also find that upper 20's to mid 30's men with young families to be stable enough to want to understand the right things in life. Older, you get their bad habits, younger and you are still in the middle of them growing up.

Brian, you mentioned active in team sports as a benefit. I disagree, somewhat. Team sports schedules don't play nice with work schedules, and you have to understand that play is less important than work. However, I want people that have interests beyond work, whether it is woodworking, Harleys, underwater beer drinking, I don't care, as long as they do it off the clock, and look forward to it. It gives them a break, and they come back to work ready for it. The key is understanding that work enables them to pursue the other, not that work interferes with it.

You all have probably heard some version of this, work like you you own the company, and it will be best for the company.

While we're at it, most degrees include a huge amount of useless crap. As an employer, it makes no difference to me what you went for, the job I have to offer might not include all the dimensions of said degree. Brian, your's for example, I could find work for you that uses the accounting part of it, but the environmental management has no profitable relevance to the job I offer. Somewhere out there, there is a job that would use both though, and as you are aware, you have to go where the job is. Too many people study something like medieval arts, then expect a farming community to support it, and go on the dole when they can't find work. Colleges are complicit on encouraging degrees like this, they want profit, but its just a waste of years of the students life, and a disservice to them to encourage it. There is always a need for doctors, lawyers, nurses and teachers. If kids truly want a career out of school, start there.

Brian Elfert
03-22-2014, 1:50 PM
There are employers who require a 4 year degree for so-called professional jobs, but they don't care what the actual major was. They want job candidates who had the ambition and drive to complete college.

The local Boy Scout council requires all "professionals" to have a four degree, but they don't care what your major was in. This may be a national policy, but I'm not sure.

Alan Bienlein
03-22-2014, 2:00 PM
In what fantasy land are you going to support a family on $18,720 a year if you are making $9 an hour without government assistance? If taxes are 10% of your pay then you have a take home of $1404 a month. A 2 bedroom apartment is easily $700 a month. A family of three could pretty easily spend $500 a month on food. Utilities probably $100 a month. Car insurance and gas maybe $150 a month. I'm already at $1450 a month and no money for clothes, vacations, or any other expenses. If your employer provides health insurance they will probably charge you at least $300 a month for a family policy.

I guess if you had two $9 an hour jobs full time you might make some headway, but you would be working almost 12 hours every day of the week. You could I suppose find a cheap 1 bedroom apartment for $500 a month and the kid sleeps on the couch and cut your food budget to $300 a month, but what kind of living would that be?

My wife makes $11.00 an hour and we can pay all our bills on just that and put food on the table. Does it leave anything extra for luxuries, no but it is possible.

For the record I also work but can't remember the last time I put in more than 25 hours in a week and that is by choice. I could easily put in twice that but why bother as there are no benefits at this job other than working what ever hours I want to. Her job is the one with the paid vacations, holidays, sick days, personal leave days.

I could go some where else and make the same with benefits but I would be stuck working 40 hour weeks.

Myk Rian
03-22-2014, 2:01 PM
Any ideas or suggestions on where to find those great kids that don't want to go to college, but want to work and are smart, hard working kids that want to learn and take the ball and run with it?
Advertize at a local trade/tech school.

Alan Bienlein
03-22-2014, 2:22 PM
Most of the world lives a subsistence lifestyle. They live pretty well, because they're satisfied with fewer clothes from consignment stores, and second hand places instead of the delusion of saving money by taking coupons to macy's. What they won't have is expensive disposal of money with nothing in return (going to a restaurant, appetizer, fillet, two glasses of wine and dessert...that kind of thing), or two late model cars all the time. Subsistence living is something more like never having any disposable income at all, like subsistence farmers used to live. They were masters of depriving themselves of pleasure that cost money, and looked for satisfaction elsewhere.

If people want to live better than that, I have no issue with that at all - everyone I'm around now lives a lot higher on the hog than that, it's suburbia here. But the other end of the bargain is if you want that money to spend, you have to figure out how to make yourself worth that money to someone else. Unskilled labor doesn't return two glasses of wine and fillet mignon and retirement savings to boot, it never has - the delusion of society is that the large mass of folks can live like that based on some slices where society in general has spent with abandon supported more by borrowing than production.

This is a topic that is somewhat interesting to me, just because it involves numbers moving from one place to another. It's been quite a long time since western society has produced as much as it consumes, and we have a delusional expectation of what we should have vs. what we create because of it. It's pretty much at all levels. We also have completely lost the ability to delay gratification which is key to all of the stuff that I've described previously. I think the ability to delay gratification makes for more contented and happy individuals, but it's looked down upon now.

David Weaver has hit the nail on the head.

When I was making the money as a superintendent building high rise condos I was working all the time and couldn't really enjoy the fruits of my labor. When I was laid off Jan. 8th 2010 that was actually the best day in my life. I got home and saw all the crap we spent money on that just sits around gathering dust and doesn't contribute anything other than spending the time to keep it clean. I made up my mind right then and there that nothing else would be bought unless it was an absolute necessity. We had to need it and not want it.

There are a lot of things I want right now as far as tools go but just can't justify it as the tools they would replace are still doing what they were designed to do. I had forgotten this from my childhood as my father would never buy something just to buy it. We did everything around the house ourselves from auto repairs to roofing, plumbing, concrete and electrical.

In other words I don't feel the need to keep up with the Jone's. I'm happy with what I have. Some people look down their nose at me when I tell them that but I don't have to worry about trying to support a lifestyle that requires a high paying job. I'm living comfortably right now.

Phil Thien
03-22-2014, 3:44 PM
There are employers who require a 4 year degree for so-called professional jobs, but they don't care what the actual major was. They want job candidates who had the ambition and drive to complete college.


A friend of mine that did a stint teaching at a local university said it best: "Today's college degree is equivalent to the high school diploma you and I have."

Kind of hard to disagree with him.

PeterTorresani
03-22-2014, 5:20 PM
Brian commented on people in team sports. After a couple days of coaching a kid or playing with an adult, I am pretty sure I can tell you who would make a good employee and who wouldn't. The two reasons are not related to sports. 1)Desire to improve - which kid practices his swing while waiting his turn at BP, or shoots free throws during warmups, while the others are throwing up half court shots. 2)Commitment to something other than themselves. Doing what's best for the team, not what's best for me.
As I said, these traits aren't limited to sports, but from my experience, they are extremely visible there.
So my advice would be to go talk to some of the coaches at the local high school. Don't ask for the best player, ask for the best teammate.

Scott Shepherd
03-22-2014, 8:02 PM
Advertize at a local trade/tech school.

That's hasn't work for any of us.


Here's one of my favorite discussions on related stuff is on the TED website. It's quite long, but it's one of the most brilliant things I've ever seen discussed....

https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity

Mike Henderson
03-22-2014, 9:06 PM
A friend of mine that did a stint teaching at a local university said it best: "Today's college degree is equivalent to the high school diploma you and I have."

Kind of hard to disagree with him.
That may be true for a place like University of Phoenix, and maybe some community colleges, but I can assure you that a major state university will teach far beyond what I ever had in high school. And any "good" university (UCLA is an example) will expect the student to have done very well in high school (including AP courses) or they wouldn't get in.

Mike

David Weaver
03-22-2014, 9:43 PM
Ditto what Mike said. It depends on the school and the major. I would expect an applied mathematics major to be pretty useful coming out of school. We get input in some of the schools who supply us with graduates in terms of where we'd like to see changes in the curriculum. I can safely say that the average graduate now is superior to what the average graduate was 15 years ago, and 15 years ago, the average graduate was superior (in terms of how much work they can do, how accurately and how flexible they are) to graduates 15 years prior.

With 15 years of experience, I sometimes feel like a dinosaur compared to some of the new hot shots. College taught me a trade, and it was the first time in my life that I saw the difference between working and not working in terms of results.

Christopher Collins
03-22-2014, 9:46 PM
Pay commission on each task completed or item produced. More work = more pay.
I had a door to door sales job in college. 100% commission, no salary. If I didn't sell, I didn't get paid. Transformed me from a lazy bum to a workaholic real fast.

David Weaver
03-22-2014, 10:04 PM
That works OK for sales, but it doesn't work quite as well when you have a job where quality is important. One of the things I found out in a place where I worked before where performance was very parameterized was that a lot of people were working to the parameters and not to the expectations of clients. It was easier to satisfy parametric goals than it was to generally do a good job and do the kind of work you'd expect if you were on the other side and paying the bill for the work.

There are also a lot of jobs where you're working as part of a team or on items where you have responsibility but little real control of the outcome. It just doesn't work well everywhere, and you can't afford to use that as a basis on something where it doesn't work well when competitors don't do it (you quickly lose employees to competitors).

Phil Thien
03-22-2014, 10:49 PM
Ditto what Mike said. It depends on the school and the major.

While I am generalizing, it is worth noting the guy I'm talking about was teaching at a top-ranked regional engineering school.

Universities are, on average, cranking out dumber graduates.

Brian Elfert
03-22-2014, 11:35 PM
Pay commission on each task completed or item produced. More work = more pay.
I had a door to door sales job in college. 100% commission, no salary. If I didn't sell, I didn't get paid. Transformed me from a lazy bum to a workaholic real fast.

Works great for sales. Not so well for say factory work. A lot of factory workers making RVs are paid by the piece and quality of most RVs sucks. I suppose the entire factory floor could be penalized if the QA inspector finds defects, but most of the defects in RVs tend to show up once a customer buys it.

I bought a new RV with a wood frame and one of the pieces of wood framing was over 1/2" too short and they just left a gap. The workers just shot in a bunch of extra staples to cover the gap. They didn't replace the wood. The couch screwed into that piece of wood kept coming loose. I finally had to remove the couch, remove the wall covering, and then replace the wood with the proper length to fix it. I had the trailer to the dealer to fix it and they never fixed it properly.

David Weaver
03-23-2014, 7:40 AM
While I am generalizing, it is worth noting the guy I'm talking about was teaching at a top-ranked regional engineering school.

Universities are, on average, cranking out dumber graduates.

Some people are more fit for university teaching than they are working in industry, even if they are genuinely excellent as instructors they might not work well in a "regular job". Maybe it's different for engineers. These days out of applied mathematics we get all of the above that I described, but also kids who have no arrogance about their abilities (15 years ago even, there was a bit of a sense of entitlement from kids, as if employers should pay them first and then figure out if they're worth it), and a good understanding that what they do at work has to make the company money.

The labor market has changed in 15 years, and where we were 75% doers and 25% "coasters" (people trying to figure out how to get by doing as little as possible) coasters, find their way out of work quickly now.

I have a woodworking buddy who is an engineer, and he said that "our engineer hires just want to get on facebook and fantasy football", which may be true. For some reason, we haven't seen it with non engineers.

Phil Thien
03-23-2014, 10:52 AM
I have a woodworking buddy who is an engineer, and he said that "our engineer hires just want to get on facebook and fantasy football", which may be true. For some reason, we haven't seen it with non engineers.

I think you and Mike hit the nail on the head earlier with regard to the school and the curriculum. The students attending elite schools and those in tougher majors at state schools aren't the issue, the issue is the ever growing mass in the middle.

I can't really explain the engineering students. My friend related a story of how a fairly low-level course he was teaching had south of 25 students, and something like five or so of them had claimed a learning disability that allowed them extra time and help on exams. I think that would have been unheard of just a decade or two ago. I'm not trying to be insensitive or anything I just cannot wrap my mind around large #'s of students with learning disabilities going into engineering.

A friend of mine told me his son had claimed a learning disability and was getting similar help earning some sort of business degree (at a good school, mind you). Again, not to be too insensitive, but I just don't understand the difference between the modern-day learning disability and what we use to refer to as "dumb as a stick." Are there no more stupid people, just those with learning disabilities?

Scott Shepherd
03-23-2014, 11:16 AM
I wouldn't blame this on newly graduating college students. Like I mentioned in my original posts, the last person we hired was close to 50. We had more issue with that person than anyone else. He felt he was entitled to make big money, even though he was jobless when he came to us. He just didn't give two cents about our business. However, when we'd discuss it, he'd say "I get it, I really do, it's a small business and we need to get a lot of things done". He'd talk about growing the business and expanding into other markets, but his talk and his actions never matched. I even explained it to him that he made more than I did because it was a risk I was willing to take to hire someone with his skill level to help push us to the next level.

He wasn't college educated, so I can't blame that on college. I think it's a much larger problem. I think people have just stopped caring in general. When I started driving, if someone was broken down in the road, you'd pull up behind them, put your flashers on, get out, and you'd help push them out of the road. Everyone did it. By no means would anyone ever let a car stay in the middle of the traffic lanes. When was the last time you saw that happen? People don't care now. It could be a major traffic jam, backing traffic up for miles and all they need is 2 people to get out and push the car to the shoulder. Nope. Not going to happen. Law Enforcement won't do it either. They'll pull up behind the car, put their lights on and sit for the next hour while miles of traffic back up. People just don't care about anything any more.

I'm in a trade. I can teach you a trade that will feed your family well in the years to come. But I can't teach you if you don't want to learn. I love to learn. I'm upset because there's not enough time in the day for me to learn all the things I want to learn. I've got so many things I'd like to get involved in and not enough time to do it. However, I see so many people that couldn't care less about learning something new.

I'm looking for someone that loves to learn. If I could find that person, or several of those people, I'd be sitting pretty.

Mark Wooden
03-23-2014, 11:36 AM
And here I am at the other end of the job/ work market-

I'm in my late 50's. Highly skilled in residential construction, cabinetmaking, architectural millwork (fabrication and installation) stair making, framing, trim- you name it. I went back to college at 50 to update my education, become fully computer literate , learned to use CAD, got a degree in Construction Management. I have a pretty fully equipped shop here at home (which I need to get moved in to a larger space to use it). Due to circumstances beyond my control- illness and divorce- I'm going to have to work pretty much until I leave the planet. No problem, I've always worked. But I can't get work.

Start up my shop- and I'm competing against the "underground"- under the table, non english speaking labor,slapping together premanufactured components, cheap and plentiful, work isn't very good but the contractors don't care it's cheap , pocket the money and move on.

Work for someone else- A site "supervisor" these days seems to be a guy in a truck that can speak South American dialects and gets $20-$22 per hour. (I've tried, can't speak Spanish, no talent for languages) I can't really frame anymore,too old for it, and who cares if it's square, level, plumb, accurate to plan? It's up ain't it?
In 2007 I was making $40 pr hr doing high end trim work and millwork. I was just offered $18, a "gift" I was told because I'm old school and probably set in my ways. ( I didn't get the job because I made a comment about there being a lot of caulk and filler everywhere)

I've been doing Property Management for the past 7 years, along with building furniture and cabinets for the same place and that job is ending. And I'll be lucky to meet my mortgage, taxes and insurance at the pay rate offered around here.

I'd love to work with a bunch of guy's with my experience, dedication to task and quality- but we're getting few and far between because we're starving to death.
Not sure what I'm going to do next.

Larry Edgerton
03-23-2014, 12:20 PM
And here I am at the other end of the job/ work market-

I'm in my late 50's. Highly skilled in residential construction, cabinetmaking, architectural millwork (fabrication and installation) stair making, framing, trim- you name it. I went back to college at 50 to update my education, become fully computer literate , learned to use CAD, got a degree in Construction Management. I have a pretty fully equipped shop here at home (which I need to get moved in to a larger space to use it). Due to circumstances beyond my control- illness and divorce- I'm going to have to work pretty much until I leave the planet. No problem, I've always worked. But I can't get work.

Start up my shop- and I'm competing against the "underground"- under the table, non english speaking labor,slapping together premanufactured components, cheap and plentiful, work isn't very good but the contractors don't care it's cheap , pocket the money and move on.

Work for someone else- A site "supervisor" these days seems to be a guy in a truck that can speak South American dialects and gets $20-$22 per hour. (I've tried, can't speak Spanish, no talent for languages) I can't really frame anymore,too old for it, and who cares if it's square, level, plumb, accurate to plan? It's up ain't it?
In 2007 I was making $40 pr hr doing high end trim work and millwork. I was just offered $18, a "gift" I was told because I'm old school and probably set in my ways. ( I didn't get the job because I made a comment about there being a lot of caulk and filler everywhere)

I've been doing Property Management for the past 7 years, along with building furniture and cabinets for the same place and that job is ending. And I'll be lucky to meet my mortgage, taxes and insurance at the pay rate offered around here.

I'd love to work with a bunch of guy's with my experience, dedication to task and quality- but we're getting few and far between because we're starving to death.
Not sure what I'm going to do next.

Wow! That is almost like I wrote that. Scary.

My best crew I described earlier is all retired now and I am finding that my level of fit and finish is not considered a necessity any more as well. I am in Michigan to make it worse, we started the crash and we have still not recovered. I sold my commercial building as I found it was no longer paying for itself. I am now putting a shop/home complex together to keep overhead down. It seems I am going to be making less, and after that catastrophic divorce at 43, I too realize I have to work till I drop.

So... everything I do is with an eye to working less, as reality is that as I get older I will be capable of less work. I am not able to compromise quality, I'd rather be a greeter at WallMart. I'm still building but I'm over it, need to promote the shop work more. Just trying to find a new nitch. Thought I had it all worked out 15 years ago......

Larry

Mel Fulks
03-23-2014, 12:38 PM
Larry, saw your wall mart greeter comment. Around here they stopped speaking at least a year ago! They just stand there. I like to talk.... So there is something I'm over qualified for!

Ted Calver
03-23-2014, 7:56 PM
Scott,
If someone came to you and said they would work for you for a month for no wages and would walk away with no hard feelings at the end of that time if you felt they weren't up to the job...would you give them a chance??
(That's how I got my first job after getting out of the service)

Dave Sheldrake
03-23-2014, 8:10 PM
If a vet comes to me for an advertised position they go to the top of the list straight away Ted :)

cheers

Dave

Scott Shepherd
03-23-2014, 8:37 PM
Scott,
If someone came to you and said they would work for you for a month for no wages and would walk away with no hard feelings at the end of that time if you felt they weren't up to the job...would you give them a chance??
(That's how I got my first job after getting out of the service)

Ted, I would kindly turn them down and pay for their time. We might still do the 30 day thing, but it would be paid time. I'm not looking for anything free, I'm just trying to find someone that wants to learn and wants to work. Oh course there are always some stipulations. We are computer heavy, so if you come in and don't know how to use email, or you save a file on your computer and have no idea where it went or how to find it, then we're probably a long way from having a good fit.

I literally have projects in my notebook that are stand alone products or projects, meaning I could hand the entire project to someone and they could run with it, setting it up online, whatever that ends up being, registering a domain name, etc. I've left plenty of room in the projects for them to be improved, so if someone wanted to grab something and run with it, the projects are there. Projects that are almost stand alone businesses on their own. But I can't find anyone that wants to get excited about anything other than what Tammy posted on Facebook.

I tried a guy that was in his early 60's once. Had 30 years in the trade. Very knowledgable. Problem came when we'd talk about things to be done, and he'd say "I don't do much at night anyway, when I'm looking around online, I'll see what I can find". Then he'd come in the next day with great stuff. At the end of the month, he turned in a bill for every single MINUTE that he spent searching the internet at home on his time, and he charged me $35 per hour for that time. I didn't ask him to do it, I didn't authorize him to do it, but he did it. He had stuff like "9:37 PM - 10:42 PM Researching images online". It was one of the most surreal things I've ever seen. I took him to lunch and bought him lunch. He charged me for the time he spent eating lunch with me because he said it was business related.

So I'm not having much luck with the older generation either!

Brian W Smith
03-24-2014, 6:55 AM
Not trying to be the least bit negative......and is somewhat why folks didn't listen when warned of this sort of "thing" happening 20 or so years ago.

I was at the top of the game....grew up in building(cabinets,millwork,trim)and was just working along at that time doing some very cool projects.My best bud at that time sat at a Tig bench all day doing NASA level high precision welding.We both were somehow responsible in our respective jobs,for seeing that the younger guys learned what we had to teach.We weren't there to teach the basics.......and weren't typical "lead men".We'd both been at that role for 10 or 15 years pryor to this.

Anyhoo,over probably a five year period where our paths crossed in these positions....we MOST definitely saw the change over from employs who were eager to take their craft to the master level and would bend our ears to;A gradual but very noticeable lack of interest.My bud and I were comparing "notes" and it was almost like we were each at the others "bench".

Most guys with the years at the bench we both had were long gone from the shop floor....having moved "up front" way before reaching our age.So there wasn't and isn't a lot of situations where the level of a particular "craft" demands such expertise.And in at least my trade,can write a book on the "whys"....but isn't the point of the post.Which is,"we saw it coming"....told anyone who'd listen and wanted to comment.....no one(those in the front office)seemed to give a rats arse.We both felt bothered by the situation and made changes(lose the semi-skilled employs)where we feel it circumvents most(if not all) of these issues.

There are some things you can do,but may be better suited to private messaging.

Scott Shepherd
03-24-2014, 8:15 AM
Brian, I hear you. I spent 25 years in machine shops and manufacturing as a machinist, then a CNC programmer. I didn't leave the trade because I was tired of manufacturing, I left it because I had no choice. I, like others here, left a trade making good money, to start over again, making a fraction of what I used to make. Now, with my skill set, and seeing the work that's out there, I'm convinced there is a huge market for people with skill sets embedded into other businesses. My machining skills have got me a ton of work and a customer base that won't go anywhere else because they can't go to my competitors and get that kind of help. We had a customer that we did some small CNC router work for. They were bending my ear one day about how their current project was a disaster and I asked them if they'd show me. So they did. I looked at the issues and quickly resolved them. Next thing you know, I'm making fixtures for them on our lasers. Now I get all their fixtures and they actually call me in before they take on big projects as a billable consultant to make sure they aren't starting the projects on the wrong foot.

I know there's a lot of value out there. I know there's a ton of work for skilled people. You just have to be willing to cross over into another trade to get to that work. Instead of being the best machinist in the machine shop world (which you may or may not be), you end up being the best in the new trade because no one else exists in that trade in that market. So it really does give you a competitive advantage.

Mark Bolton
03-24-2014, 10:34 AM
Wow! That is almost like I wrote that. Scary.

My best crew I described earlier is all retired now and I am finding that my level of fit and finish is not considered a necessity any more as well. I am in Michigan to make it worse, we started the crash and we have still not recovered. I sold my commercial building as I found it was no longer paying for itself. I am now putting a shop/home complex together to keep overhead down. It seems I am going to be making less, and after that catastrophic divorce at 43, I too realize I have to work till I drop.

So... everything I do is with an eye to working less, as reality is that as I get older I will be capable of less work. I am not able to compromise quality, I'd rather be a greeter at WallMart. I'm still building but I'm over it, need to promote the shop work more. Just trying to find a new nitch. Thought I had it all worked out 15 years ago......

Larry

Funny how these posts are like mirror reflections for so many. It makes you wonder what personality types go into this trade because hearing these stories that ring so true and clear, even with chronological accuracy, is all to common across many forums and many others I meet face to face in the trade.

Wierd.

Jim Underwood
03-24-2014, 10:56 AM
Wow. Interesting read... Lot's of different perspectives here. I find myself in agreement with much of them.
I find myself wondering what business Scott is in... Sign making?

Mark Bolton
03-24-2014, 11:16 AM
Reading through this, something that I find amazing is something I hear locally and from friends quite a bit is the, I guess you could say, "notion" of what it costs to simply be alive today? Its always been something that amazes me. People saying you cant live on $18/hr, or $10/hr, and so on. Like the satellite TV, 120/mo smartphone bill, netflix, sirius satellite radio, car payment, dinning out, excess clothing and shoes, and so on are all necessary components to life or a "good life".

I have a friend I used to have frequent conversations with who would continually talk of how young people just cant make it on the pay today (this was perhaps 15+ years ago), there is no chance to get ahead, there is no way a young person can own a home any longer, on and on and on. One day my phone rings early in the morning, I answer it, and he says "hey look out your window". I look out to a brand new dodge 4 door 4wd pick up and him smiling on the cell phone. This was in perhaps 98-99. I was happy to see him, and happy to see him happy. Of course my first response was "man, thats gotta cost a chunk". His reply "nah, I got a great deal, its only 587/mo". In my head Im thinking, plus full coverage, plus fuel/tires/and so on. All the while Im driving a 89 chevy two wheel drive that I bought for my business brand new, stripped, for 11,800.00 factory order.

In later conversations while he would still carry on about not getting ahead, and had added a bass boat, and motor cycle, mountain bikes, all the accessories, and so on, I would say.. "Have you ever asked your parents when they bought their first new car?". I can remember my mother (single mom/widow) buying her first new car when I was a young teenager. And it was a Reliant K car, and it was a BIG deal. She had raised and seen off two children, and the third (me) left, and FINALLY felt she had the resources to purchase a car that cost perahps 6k? Of course now, everyone, at all times, thinks they must have all this "stuff" and gee-gaws like the are the essentials of life. It makes no sense. Its great to "want" to have them, but first, you dont "have to", and second its not a guarantee.

The friend is a great friend to this day and doing very well however we talk often about how he thinks my self employed life and freedom are so great and how his life sucks and I comment how great it is to have a few thousand bucks direct deposited into your checking every couple weeks and a 401k contribution and that he'd be nuts to consider leaving it.

The mere amount of "stuff" even the lower middle/middle class people have today would make them rich beyond my wildest dreams when I was young (and Im only talking 30 years ago). Phones, cameras, electronics, counters full of appliances, clothes upon clothes upon clothes, shoes, and so on. Reading David's reply reminded me of being young when you had a half dozen pairs of jeans, a few shirts, couple pairs of shoes, and thats it. Your entire wardrobe could fit in a 3-4 drawer dresser and a small closet. Perhaps even less because my top drawer was just a junk drawer. Now people have piles and piles of clothes, multiple multiple pairs of shoes, and Im talking lower middle class and below. Yet we are supposedly worse off? We cant afford to live on $xxK/year. In a recession? Coming out of the worst recession since the depression? Working in peoples homes daily, look at all the other things, how many people have Zero turn mowers?!? Riding lawn mowers, multiple vehicles, weedeaters, gas grills, several TV's, it goes on an on. Im not saying a return to a less affluent life is what people should do, but it "is" possible and it's not necessarily miserable especially if you consider the grief and effort it takes to get and maintain all that "stuff".

Its fine to be in a position where you can have all this stuff, want to be in a position to have all this stuff, but to think its not possible to live without it is completely inaccurate. I have myself lived on very little, and living and operating in a very rural area, see people living on far less than I have and far less than some of the numbers tossed around here.

I think it'd be great for everyone to make more than they do but its all about perspective.

Jim Underwood
03-24-2014, 11:31 AM
I supported my family of four for YEARS on less than $18/hr. In fact most of that 20+ years, we lived just above the government "poverty line". Bought a house and two cars during that time too.

It can be done, but you can't buy everything your heart desires. And you have to shop for deals all the time. Thrift and bargain hunting are mandatory, NOT options.

Mark Bolton
03-24-2014, 11:51 AM
I supported my family of four for YEARS on less than $18/hr. In fact most of that 20+ years, we lived just above the government "poverty line". Bought a house and two cars during that time too.

It can be done, but you can't buy everything your heart desires. And you have to shop for deals all the time. Thrift and bargain hunting are mandatory, NOT options.

I agree Jim, Its not the end of the world. But so many today feel its impossible.

I feel I come from a convenient perspective in that I had the gee gaws and stuff, and came to a realization that I was no longer willing to do what it took to support that stuff so looking back on it now I dont have any great desire to have it. Its an easier vantage point that having never had it and thinking its what you need or what will make you happy.

I sit here now with a very low end life but am still amazed at what the "basics" cost when you add up taxes, modest vehicle expenses, recurring bills (utilities and such). It makes me feel old as Ive lost a bit of touch with what this "stuff" costs nowadays. My girlfriend teases me for things like when we go into a Dicks sporting goods I will guess at prices for things and they are nearly always twice what I guessed. I mean come on!! $100 for an underarmor shirt? Your kidding me! I see those things everywhere.

It gives me very little sympathy... :rolleyes:

Brian Elfert
03-24-2014, 12:20 PM
The kind of house a mortgage banker will allow one to buy is typically far more expensive than the house one should buy. There was an article in the paper recently about a single lady with kids who drives a city bus and makes about $38,000 a year. She was able to buy a nearly new house in the suburbs at a cost of around $350,000! I don't think she put 20% down so she has to pay mortgage insurance I bet. No flipping way I would buy a house like that on that salary.

I make twice that much and own a $340,000 house. I feel like the house is choking me financially and I actually have it up for sale. I'm looking to get into a house at least $100,000 less. My Property taxes went up 12% to $4,800 this year and my property taxes will go up to at least $5,300 next year.

A mortgage banker would probably look at my situation and say I could afford a mortgage to buy a $400,000 to $500,000 house.

Dan Hintz
03-24-2014, 3:10 PM
I can't find anyone that wants to get excited about anything other than what Tammy posted on Facebook.
Let's be honest, Steve... Tammy is a very interesting person, so can you blame them? ;)


I tried a guy that was in his early 60's once. Had 30 years in the trade. Very knowledgable. Problem came when we'd talk about things to be done, and he'd say "I don't do much at night anyway, when I'm looking around online, I'll see what I can find". Then he'd come in the next day with great stuff. At the end of the month, he turned in a bill for every single MINUTE that he spent searching the internet at home on his time, and he charged me $35 per hour for that time. I didn't ask him to do it, I didn't authorize him to do it, but he did it. He had stuff like "9:37 PM - 10:42 PM Researching images online". It was one of the most surreal things I've ever seen. I took him to lunch and bought him lunch. He charged me for the time he spent eating lunch with me because he said it was business related.
I would have turned right around and presented him with a bill for double the amount... for the hours it took me to remove my jaw from the floor in astonishment and incredulity.

I sincerely hope you didn't pay that bill, either. Unless it was in writing, there was no expectation on either party's part that remuneration would be presented... but I suppose you don't get what you don't ask for (or in this case, demand and guilt into).

Phil Thien
03-24-2014, 3:56 PM
I sincerely hope you didn't pay that bill, either. Unless it was in writing, there was no expectation on either party's part that remuneration would be presented... but I suppose you don't get what you don't ask for (or in this case, demand and guilt into).

But he said the guy came in the next day with great stuff.

I may have been inclined to pay, if the stuff was helping me move profitable projects that were otherwise stalled, forward.

Larry Edgerton
03-24-2014, 4:57 PM
I don't see that as an indictment of all people in that age bracket as larcenous freeloaders but rather as one fellow that snookered him. If that were the case as I have been snookered by someone in about every age bracket and I would not trust anyone.

Larry

Scott Shepherd
03-24-2014, 6:28 PM
I don't see that as an indictment of all people in that age bracket as larcenous freeloaders but rather as one fellow that snookered him. If that were the case as I have been snookered by someone in about every age bracket and I would not trust anyone.

Larry

Larry, that was my point in posting that. A number of people in this thread have labeled it as "these kids today just don't want to do anything". I was just trying to demonstrate the people I have given a chance, haven't been kids and their work ethics have been very poor.


Dan, that's a story that deserves to be told over a cold beverage. I think the technical term I responded with was "Insane". I don't mind paying people to do work, but when you tell me "I'm not doing anything at night, when I'm searching the internet to pass time, I'll see if I find any information", I don't take that as "If you pay me $35 per hour, I'll sit in my underwear and goggle the exact terms you told me, and that you could google yourself". He found quality information on the topic at hand, but it wasn't anything more complex than a google search. He didn't get paid for that time. When he told me I was ripping him off, I asked him if I was ripping him off when he brought his girlfriend "the artist's" work in to have me laser engrave it for free, time and time again. I asked him if I was ripping him off when we took the time to make some items for his grandson's birthday using the laser. I had about 10 more of those examples where I had done things for him for no charge. In the end, we wrote him his last check that he swore he needed immediately to pay his bills he was behind on, only to have the check still not cashed 3 years later.

If there is a talent for talking to people and getting the feeling they really know what they are talking about, and then hiring them to realize they are insane, I think I have that talent.

Mel Fulks
03-24-2014, 7:30 PM
Scott ,that story is the funniest thing I've read in a good while. I'm predicting that if you use it wisely...no one will demand
they be paid to accept your generosity.

Larry Edgerton
03-24-2014, 8:19 PM
Larry, that was my point in posting that. A number of people in this thread have labeled it as "these kids today just don't want to do anything". I was just trying to demonstrate the people I have given a chance, haven't been kids and their work ethics have been very poor.




If there is a talent for talking to people and getting the feeling they really know what they are talking about, and then hiring them to realize they are insane, I think I have that talent.

I had one a couple of years ago send me an awesome resume, worked for a boat builder for seven years, was a contractor but wanted to do something different with no employees, yata, Yata YATA. things I could relate to as I hate contracting any more. The stroke of brilliance was the paragraph describing how he had researched woodworkers/contractors and wanted a home where he could do the kind of work he could be proud of and that Crooked Tree Joinery was the best fit he could find. Ya, of course I hired him.

Ya, I got snookered........

Larry

Shawn Pixley
03-24-2014, 10:28 PM
Stepping onto the Soapbox

This is a bit tangential to the topic. Did any of you read the NPR blog on the comparison of chirldren's income and profession to that of their parents.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/03/18/289013884/who-had-richer-parents-doctors-or-arists

The basic thrust of it seems to be if you come from money, you'll have more opportunities of both a higher (or lower) professional level than the parents. However, if you come from lower income professions, your opportunities are more limited. There are notable exceptions however. I am an example of the exception.

So why is this relevant to the discussion? My thrust here is that most want their offspring to have a better life than they. We want them not to have to work at dead end jobs. I think what we might think about is the difference between a job and a profession. The days of high wages for low skill jobs are gone.

What we need is the following:
From employees - a work ethic, team player, stick-to-it-tiveness, a desire to improve and respect for the employer, work and workproduct
From employers - willingness to invest in the employee, teach while doing, pay a fair wage, provide opportunity to advance, and make the employee feel valued.

When i got out of University, my first wage was with a renown design firm. However they paid me below a poverty level wage because I was "apprenticing." I had to hustle pool on the side to be able to eat every day. No car, no real opportunity to advance. I ultimately left and made a wildly sucessful career. I had the fortune to speak with my first professional employer. He related to me how things had turned out. The firm was still successful but they had big problems getting bought out of their own firm. Because they had never paid them a wage where the employees could get ahead enough to buy them out. They were forced to work into their eighties.

We shouldn't expect high skills or committment if we pay minimum wage. If we want skills in employees, we need to be willing to invest in them. Not simply monetarily, but give them a future. I am not avocating pay for no effort; but comensurate investment and reward by both parties. For the department I am priveleged to lead, I spend about 50% of my time training, coaching and investing in my staff. Them doing well is key to how I am ultimately rewarded.

Stepping off the soapbox now.

Brian Elfert
03-25-2014, 2:57 AM
Stepping onto the Soapbox

This is a bit tangential to the topic. Did any of you read the NPR blog on the comparison of chirldren's income and profession to that of their parents.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/03/18/289013884/who-had-richer-parents-doctors-or-arists

The basic thrust of it seems to be if you come from money, you'll have more opportunities of both a higher (or lower) professional level than the parents. However, if you come from lower income professions, your opportunities are more limited. There are notable exceptions however. I am an example of the exception.


The NPR article is interesting. It is right on about household income when I was growing up and what professions children take. My dad was a computer systems administrator since at least the early 90s. I have been a computer system administrator same as him for almost 20 years now. My dad retired two years ago, but interestingly enough I make almost as much salary as he did even though he had many more years of experience than I do. My brothers also both work in the computer field.

Dennis Peacock
03-25-2014, 12:59 PM
I find it funny. I personally know 4 people who have been actively LOOKING for work, because they need a job AND they WANT to work. None of them have been able to pass those goofy online personality tests. I know that 3 of the 4 people are hard workers and are honest and always report to work a bit early and do work beyond what is asked of them. Still, none of them have even been called for an interview because of the online personality or pre-employment tests. What I'm finding is that you have to study all the online cheats on how to pass those tests....so what's the purpose of those tests if you have to cheat to pass them enough to get an interview?

Oh well, I will continue to encourage them and help them find work when/where I can.

Mike Henderson
03-25-2014, 1:09 PM
The NPR article is interesting. It is right on about household income when I was growing up and what professions children take. My dad was a computer systems administrator since at least the early 90s. I have been a computer system administrator same as him for almost 20 years now. My dad retired two years ago, but interestingly enough I make almost as much salary as he did even though he had many more years of experience than I do. My brothers also both work in the computer field.
My observation has been that computer systems administration is a field that has a lot of age discrimination. People over 40 often find it difficult to get hired if they lose their job. The companies all seem to want people just out of school.

Mike

David Weaver
03-25-2014, 1:10 PM
I find it funny. I personally know 4 people who have been actively LOOKING for work, because they need a job AND they WANT to work. None of them have been able to pass those goofy online personality tests. I know that 3 of the 4 people are hard workers and are honest and always report to work a bit early and do work beyond what is asked of them. Still, none of them have even been called for an interview because of the online personality or pre-employment tests. What I'm finding is that you have to study all the online cheats on how to pass those tests....so what's the purpose of those tests if you have to cheat to pass them enough to get an interview?

Oh well, I will continue to encourage them and help them find work when/where I can.

sounds like the SATs (except there is value in the SATs to some extent, especially on the extreme ends of the test). I recall taking the SATs and the minority of folks in school took a course to learn to take the test better. I didn't. It seemed the implication would be that I could improve by "up to 100 points" and then be encouraged to go to a college with kids who are smarter than I am! No thanks! :)

I've had to take the personality tests, too. They're always "optional". Sprung on you at the last second after offers are made. Maybe they weed out psychopaths.

Mel Fulks
03-25-2014, 4:24 PM
Haven't taken any of those tests but I think it might be part of a general dishonest trend of making job description vague
because YOU might dishonestly tailor your interview answers. Another thing on jobs ,not every good job is a "profession".
And not every profession is a good job.

Chris Merriam
03-29-2014, 11:54 AM
I spent a year finding jobs for ex-military. Scott, Virginia is home to the largest naval base around, Norfolk. The Navy guys compared to the other services are a great fit for technical jobs. The cream of the crop are the nuclear techs, they have the equivalent of an engineering degree, but I doubt you'd be able to afford them, but there are plenty of other techs you can look for. As was mentioned earlier, the Army program is called Acap, I can't remember the naval term. If you browse around the Norfolk navy website you will probably find some links to their placement services.

Kevin Jenness
03-31-2014, 11:39 PM
When I read these stories bemoaning the lack of good employees I realize how good I have it. I work in a custom shop in Vermont, part of a home design/build outfit. With 5 cabinetmakers, a finisher and a manager, everyone is skilled, responsible, shows up on time,, works hard and works together. We have had a couple of young recruits who didn't work out, mostly for failing to accept how much they didn't know, but at least they were trying.The last two hires have been younger guys in their mid-30's who are really willing and able. Everyone else has been here for at least 8 years, everyone is college educated. I'm not sure if we've been lucky in our applicants and retention rate, but I would say it has something to do with the fact that we're paid well for the area, the work is steady ,we have a reputation for doing good and often interesting work, and we have considerable autonomy, so good people want to work here. If we do a good job of interviewing and checking references, then it's down to attitude. That's the one thing you can't teach. I would rather train a novice with a good attitude than have a skilled worker who didn't fit in. That said, teaching skills is expensive.We have been fortunate to have experienced woodworkers here, and there are guys on the building crews who would love to get in the shop.

I think there is a dearth of young people wanting to go into the trades. The party line is you have to go to college to make money, so the talented kids funnel in that direction, and what's left to operate the infrastructure is not the intellectual elite, nor perhaps the most highly motivated. And the fact is that woodworking as a trade is not especially remunerative. So I think if shops want to find people worth employing, they should offer good wages and benefits, expect to train for skills, treat workers like human beings and expect the same, hire slowly and fire quickly if not working out and cultivate a good reputation by doing good work and working with good people.

I don't in any way mean to suggest that the folks who are having problems getting good employees are not doing all of the above. Maybe we have been lucky, maybe we benefit from a better labor pool here. Certainly there are networks of good craftsmen here in Vermont. I am just trying to offer my perspective as someone who fetched up here after working on my own for 15 years.

Brian Ashton
04-01-2014, 4:58 AM
Most of the world lives a subsistence lifestyle. They live pretty well, because they're satisfied with fewer clothes from consignment stores, and second hand places instead of the delusion of saving money by taking coupons to macy's. What they won't have is expensive disposal of money with nothing in return (going to a restaurant, appetizer, fillet, two glasses of wine and dessert...that kind of thing), or two late model cars all the time. Subsistence living is something more like never having any disposable income at all, like subsistence farmers used to live. They were masters of depriving themselves of pleasure that cost money, and looked for satisfaction elsewhere.


I can't say I've done a lot of travel in the 3rd world, been to 6 or 7 that would be considered 3rd world or bordering on... I can't say I've met anyone in those countries living a life style you describe and being content with it. They do without for one reason, the things they want and often need like basic cloths, shoes, medicines, luxuries like milk... are extortionally high priced. Not because they've made a conscious decision to live without.

YMMV

Drew Sanderson
04-01-2014, 9:40 PM
You could find "help" within the realms of computer science. I focus my work on software, and at the heart of most developers you find someone who likes to build things. They don't care what they are building, they just want to build stuff. You would not believe the woodworking conversations I have at conferences. These people see woodworking as their sincere avocation with a duty of mastery for themselves. The obvious problem is an economic one. So its not all this crazy talk about the derogatory nature of my generation, its just that our trade is in a virtual environment where people will go to extraordinary lengths to recuit and retain talent. By 2020 there will be 1,000,000 more computer science jobs than computer science students. Facebook has even added a wood shop to their campus because they believe the experience of woodworking will translate positively to the work of their employees.

Frank Drew
04-02-2014, 11:08 PM
I agree with much of the sentiment expressed here about the difficulty finding good employees, but, for what it's worth, many if not most of the employers I've spoken with who are really happy with the work ethic of their blue collar employees have hired recent immigrants, and that's in agriculture, the building trades, janitorial services, etc.. And they're paying good wages to those good workers.

Just sayin'....