R. Groves and Sons tenon saw?

[Jeff Bartley]

This might be a long shot but has anyone here ever seen an R. Groves and Sons tenon saw?

Years ago I was given an open handle R. Groves and Sons dovetail saw with a steel back and I've come to really like that saw. The handle is just perfect. I've been after a tenon saw and figured that a Groves tenon saw would be perfect too. Didn't find one at PATINA over the weekend and I started to wonder if these exist in the wild.....a quick search finds them easily.....still don't know how common these are....how about here: anyone have one?

[David Weaver]

They are common, but they usually go for a stiff price if they're in really good condition.

Take a look at George's post about groves saws.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108356-Groves-and-copy-of-open-handle-saws

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108355-Old-and-copied-Groves-closed-handles

[Paul Incognito]

I have a 12" Groves, filed cross cut. I got it at the store above Roy's shop in NC.
I think I spent $35 or $40 on it. I would think if they were rare, it would have cost a bit more.
It is a nice saw and I like it a lot.
Paul

[Jeff Bartley]

Paul, Is your an open or closed handle? I'm glad to hear these saws aren't rare! I'd love to check out that store above Roy's. I might just have to make a wrong turn the next time we head to the outer banks!

[Chris Griggs]

I literally watched one sell on ebay last week.

Search item 301113999505

[Judson Green]

Last summer a Groves (~16") was tempting me at a flea market, price was fair ($20 IIRC). But it had a slight bend in it, so I passed. Saw it again at the same flea market (the flea market is 4 times a year, same venue) a few months later, picked it up, though about it, passed. As I was getting ready to go to the final market of the year thought about the saw and decided I'd take it home if it was still there, of course it wasn't. Oh well, saved me the frustration of trying to straighten it. Sure nice looking though, even with the bend.

[Jim Matthews]

$132 plus shipping on a old saw?

What's a decent modern version, with today's excellent steel cost?
It's like spending upwards of two hunnert dollas for a Disston because you can read the etch.

I know some people collect things like anvils, but really -
$132? You can always smell the speculation bubble after it pops...

[Paul Incognito]

Jeff,
Mine is a closed handle. I'll try and remember to take a picture when I'm at the shop today.
PI

[David Weaver]

I passed on an unused 14" groves on ebay about two or three years ago for $100. I'd buy it if I saw it again, and would consider it before I'd consider any new maker saws (because it was unused). A lot of the new maker saws are pretty, but to me they don't look as nice as the groves and too many have slotted backs, which I'm no big fan of.

For a beginner, that'd be bad policy (going around and looking for vintage clean saws), though, because there are a lot of shyster dealers who will sell a saw with a less than straight plate and call it straight. That's not a big deal if it's fixable, but it would be an unsolvable problem to a newbie.

I've never spent more than $45 on a used backsaw, though, and not more than $55 on a kit (A big wenzloff 16" tenon saw kit, which coincidentally doesn't get used much for furniture because it's a large heavy saw).

Several years ago when fine tool journal's newsletter saws were what they used to be, I got a nearly unused groves rip saw (26") for $32. It's a super classy saw. I wouldn't shop for any of that stuff on ebay now, though, anything nice on ebay goes to the moon, and I am thoroughly confused with why anyone would buy any regular $50 disston pattern saw for $200+ just because it had a trick sharpening job. That speaks to people who don't actually use the saws much buying saws, because that sharpening job will be very transient if the saw is used much and then a whole bunch of the irrational (and probably temporary) value of the saw goes away as soon as someone else sharpens it. What's a user going to do, send a $50 saw off then again to pay shipping twice and get a sharpening job that probably costs as much as the saw would be worth in the wild?

Perhaps even more ridiculous was little fat plated disston pattern backsaws going for $200+.

That's the nature of fads, though, you can't rationalize them if you're looking for utility-based value.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

So my take away from your post David, is that the old backsaw I never use, I should take some nice photos and unload it on eBay now, rather than later?

[David Weaver]

I don't know where the ebay values are going to go. There's a history issue on ebay, too. If someone looks at your past history and sees you sold 15 saws for 2x what anyone else did and all of the buyers have super happy feedback, then it becomes a self-propagating thing and that seller could literally sell your same saw for twice as much without doing any work to it.

But selling saws now is definitely more lucrative than it has been in the past (at least gauging as someone who tries to buy saws more so than as someone who tries to sell saws).

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I was just kind of joking.

Certainly the seller rep./history thing plays a large part in it of course - and it does make some of those "name brand" sharpened saws make a little more sense. I mean, a new Lie Nielsen panel saw is going to be like 200 bucks, so if someone with less confidence, or more money than time wants something that will cut great out of the box to start with before they learn to sharpen, it's certainly a viable option. I think most of the sellers with a good rep. on rehabbed saws offer guarantees and money back and such as well.

The ones that always strike me as funny though is when you see some saw being sold by someone who obviously has no real specialization on tools, or normally sells something entirely different, like vintage auto tools or something, and you either can't tell the true condition from the pictures, (or even worse, there are issues you can tell from the photo) but maybe it looks kind of nice in the picture, and the seller figured out the right keywords to get it attention, and a bidding war starts on a saw that some of us might pass up at a flea market, and goes for a couple hundred.

Even better are the sellers that saw saws go for a lot of money and set ridiculous reserves on worn-to-nothing saws, junky HK-era Disstons, (using copy-pasta stuff they found on the web talking about pre-war saws as there description) or they've obviously tried to make it look better in the photos (washing out any pitting with a bright camera flash, and then the close up of the handle you see in the corner how bad the steel really is). The only thing worse is when someone actually bites on those crazy reserves.