Documented Cap Iron Settings

[Graham Haydon]

While reading through "Joinery & Carpentry Vol I" from the 1930's New Era Publishing Co.

"Setting the Irons. The setting of the back iron with the cutting iron depends upon the material. For soft woods the jack plane back iron is set back about 1/8 in. from the cutting edge, and the smoothing plane and try plane about 1/16 in. full. For hard woods these distances should be halved."

This is from a series of books extending into six volumes about Joinery & Carpentery. It would suggest that the author at lest knew the importance of fitting the cap iron close if not describing fully why it needed to be set close. I would at least assume it was implied.

There is a nice bit about Metal Planes too.

"Every joiner possesses one or more metal planes, in some cases because they produce better work, and in other cases because they are time savers. Nearly every wooden plane has it's counterpart in metal, but the advantage does not always warrant the cost, and in some cases they are not so useful. For instance, metal jack and trying planes are heavy and need more careful handling because they are easily broken.
The planes may be obtained in cast iron, malleable iron, cast steel or gun metal."

And further to that on smooting planes

"The English pattern [Norris Type] is a very useful plane and the best for hardwoods and cross-grain; it is very rigid, but the irons are not adjustable. Fig 43 shows a recent improvement in which the irons are adjustable both laterally and vertically."
"The Stanley plane, or American pattern, Fig 36, is very popular because the irons are easily adjusted vertically and laterally, and it is cheaper than the English planes. The earlier types were not rigid , and inclined to chatter, but the "bedrock" pattern is quite satisfactory.
"The soles of metal planes require to be kept clean, especially for resinous woods, as the friction is considerable. Corrugated soles have been introduced to relive the friction, but they are a questionable advantage as they clog so easily"

I know many folks take a great deal of interest in these things. The reason for posting was to share the text of someone who was experienced and also gave defined setting to cap irons. Also someone in industry who felt the weight of metal planes for extented used would be a disadvantge.

I don't know much about the author apart from his name Thomas Corkhill F.B.I.C.C., M.I.Struct.E., M.Coll.H . I think he also contributed to the "Practical Woodworker" by Bernard E Jones.

[Winton Applegate]

Well let me respond since the real dudes here are about burnt out with this , I am assuming, . . .

As I understand it dudes from the thirties were out of the loop.
The guys who really KNEW were earlier.
The settings described are wide. As I understand it VERY wide.

Here is a big shot in the dark for me and take it for what it is worth but . . .
The dudes who REALLY knew from back in the day were in apprenticed _______, the word escapes me other than Unions and that isn't quite it, Craft guilds ? . . . and the real skinny was secret. Probably if a member told his neighbor how to set his hobby cap iron the BOSSES would call out a hit on him or some such.

Industrial secrets right ?
Industrial spying amounted to learning how to set the cap irons.

Or like that . . . right ?

We have come a long way baby.

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks Winton, sorry if I'm flogging a dead horse.

As I'm a metric man so I did an on line convert 1/16th is 1.58mm (http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/inches-to-millimeters.htm). That sounds quite fine to me at least (unless I don't get the numbers which would not be the first time)

Were they out of the loop? The apprenticeship system in the UK was then as it is now still in force. At that time you were likely to be an indentured apprentice (http://gshaydon.co.uk/blog/a-bit-of-history) for a period of six years. It is unlikely that these books were aimed at general public as they are highly technical and illustrative of industry in the 1930's.

Your concept of this being a secrets thing is also very unlikely. There were sometimes tensions between the older generation and the apprentice as the skills imparted upon the older ones was what kept them in work. This was less of an issue in rural areas like my home town.

My only motivation for posting this was that to my mind this was a relatively recent documentation of the use of planes in their final years of being integral before the advent of portable sanders. It also highlighted to me at least that the use and knowledge of this was more recent that some folks think. Apologies for a less than helpful thread! :)

[Kees Heiden]

I have a series of woodworking books from the early 20th century (forgot the title) that also has the same numbers. 1/32" is 0.8 mm. That is still a far cry from the 0.1 to 0.3 mm documented in the Kato video. The jack plane settiong at 1/8" is also very rough if you want to have the chipbreaker doing anything usefull.

But I don't think numbers like this were very usefull in the woodworking shop back then. I guess even a vernier caliper would have been a rare sight in a shop back then. So in other books you read sentences like "as close as possible".

I don't think it was a trade secret either. Nicholson and Holtzappfel have documented the function of the chipbreaker quite detailed. Without exact numbers though.

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks Kees, upon reviewing my numbers (I warned I was thick!) 1.5mm is much to far away as Wilton said. I shall hang my head in shame :-).

[Kees Heiden]

No need to hang you head. It's easy to get all the numbers mixed up. Far easier to just look at the narrow line of reflected light and push it as close as you can.

[Graham Haydon]

Cheers kees!

[Bob Lang]

Just because something was published doesn't make it true, and that goes for old books as much as it does for today's books, magazines and believe it or not, the internet. Then as now, people repeat what they read somewhere, and not everybody who writes writes from experience. When I see a statement like the one about corrugated soles clogging, I doubt the reliability of the whole thing.

Bob Lang

[Dave Paine]

I have a book called "Planecraft" published in 1934 by the old Record company. Recently republished by Woodcraft. Great book by the way.

There is a section on recommendations of distance of the cap iron from the blade edge

"For rough work cap iron 1/32in to 1/8in from the edge
For finishing work, cap iron 1/64in from the edge
For hard woods with irregular grain - as close as you can get it to the cutting edge"

This generally works for me. I have found that each plane can have a bit of its own personality, so we sometimes need to adjust based on the plane, the wood, and the grain orientation. No hard and fast rules. I start with perhaps 1/32in and then sometimes move closer to the edge and sometimes farther back.

[Graham Haydon]

Dave, I have that book too, now it's no longer an infomercial it's a very good read.

Bob, having never used a corrugated sole I can't say. A skeptical outlook is a wise one however It might be unwise to write off the whole thing based on your experiences with corrugated soles. I clearly demonstrated a great deal of numerical ignorance but that's not to say they are not good books. They are aimed at Joiners and Carpenters and I have found them a useful reference when working on all kinds of projects relating to those subjects.

[Winton Applegate]

Hold your head high my friend, I knew where you were going, 1/16 = ~ 1.6
And then half that.

No secret settings.
Well that's good to hear.
That means there is a chance I can read enough to learn how to do this woodworking thing yet.

Maybe the secrets started with the recent teachers, Krenov and Klausz etc.,
EyeDun'O

PS:
Apologies for a . . . . helpful thread! http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

NO DON'T this is interesting !

[Graham Haydon]

Cheers Winton! Always assume some numerical dyslexia when I'm about :)

[Winton Applegate]

:p
look at the narrow line of reflected light and push it as close as you can.

. . . then .:o . .
:(. . . hang your head . . .and shake it side to side

Ha, ha,
I'm with you most of the time and learning but that last method you described produces a moment in woodworking which is about the most "Fun" I can have .
The cap iron hangs up a little or the big flat screw (which has been DESIGNED (as far as I can tell) to come off and get lost in the shavings because it has two threads on it . . . but I digress. . .) . . .

anyway the big flat screw is a tiny bit snugs vill and so I am looking and sliding and looking and . . .
. . . here is where the fun begins . . . the chip breaker slides over the edge of the freshly sharpened blade.:mad: . . . while attempting to move it no more than one or two thousands of an inch . . .
. . . wwwwwrrrrriiiiiggggghhhht . . .
:mad: At this point I begin to use "F" words like :mad: :

FUN, FUN, FUN

;) nah dude, nah just press gently into some wood and set the cap iron screw tight . . .
hah, hah if it is still in the cap.
It is moments like this that make me ask "Why am I doing this again ?" and pick up the :cool: contra-ban BU.
:p Call me a wimp.

[Kees Heiden]

Stanley also had a booklet. This one was for the Australian market, about 1950: http://toolemera.com/pampdf/stanleyhintsplaneAU.pdf

On the 7th page they write:
To obtain a smooth surface plane with the grain. If the grain is cross or curly, set plane iron cap as near cutting edge as possible and adjust the plane iron to take a very thin even shaving.

[Kees Heiden]

You can do it too Winton. I'm sure you are not half as clumsy as I am.

[Winton Applegate]

dyslexia

Ha, ha, ha, ha,
Oh man I was reading another thread here and between the wrongly typed words, and subject matter and my slightly off color brain I wound up ROFLMAO.

So you see it isn't all bad. Can be QUITE entertaining. Not sure if I should post what I read. Is the guard on duty or taking a leak ?

[David Weaver]

Like kees says, all you do is put the cap iron short of where you want to end up and then just push it until it's in the right place. That's it.

(seriously, though, shims and measuring and that kind of stuff is going to belabor the process - it really is intuitive).

[Winton Applegate]

You can do it too Winton.
Push the cap over the edge or set the thouish glint?

(funny how thouish sounds like hellish)

Ha, ha,
I know what you mean.
Thanks for your confidence in me.
In any case after about the fifth or twelfth blade change in a day, I work some of that funny wood that eats blades,
. . . well . . . lets just say there would be some BD hand planes chucked over the fence into the neighbors yard.
I like to share the FUN as you well know.

[Graham Haydon]

I'm glad normal service is resumed! :) I dislike it when it gets too serious.

I have the "Practical Home Woodworker" 1952 beside me (wife is out so I can indulge :)) "Coarsely set irons should be up to 1/64th apart. With finely set irons the distance may be 1/64th or even less"

[Joe Tilson]

Graham,
Thank you for posting this thread! I too am just learning this neanderthal thing. I was setting my planes by the book,so to speak, then found the closer I placed the cap iron the better results I got on finer work. I don't know if you have guilds in the UK, but that is a very good place to learn from the masters of woodworking. I once was a member of one of the best guilds in the US. When their fees got up over $60.00 per year I had to drop out. I am going to the next meeting and will pay the now $100.00 fee and go to their shop, which is very very good. My friend is still a member, and he says there are several neanderthal woodworkers to learn from. I say all this to help lead you toward some useful, and hands on help. Not that the folks here are not knowledgeable, they are, but hands on is the best way for myself to learn. I do hope you enjoy this as much as I am beginning to. I now have some very nice older planes, and have been learning to fettle them to useful tools. We wish you the best.
Joe

[Winton Applegate]

all you do is put the cap iron short of where you want to end up and then just push it until it's in the right place. That's it.

That is like me saying :
All you do is put on your sneakers, line up, run . . . until you get to the end . . . take off your sneakers and have a beer.
and that is the way we run a marathon. Nothing to it.

I think I need a lot more practice and polishing the slots, or what ever in/on the blades so the _____ what ever doesn't hang up. I know it is "UNNECESSARY" but I just had a revelation . . .
if I upset the cap screw (s) from the back side they would bind a bit before falling out and rolling under the bench. THAT WOULD BE AN INNOVATION.

aaahhh

and who says this sport can't be improved.

ooooookAAAA I'll try again . . .
. . . but I won't like it . . .
I don't like broccoli . . . or that other green stuff . . .
. . . I just like cake. Lets all eat cake.

PS: Just kidding I love vegetables but you know what I mean . . .

[David Weaver]

That is like me saying :
All you do is put on your sneakers, line up, run . . . until you get to the end . . . take off your sneakers and have a beer.
and that is the way we run a marathon. Nothing to it.


Well, that pretty much describes it, except it takes about 10 seconds to set a cap iron once you've learned to do it and you're doing it with a familiar plane.

You may have a beer upon setting the cap iron successfully also, but no A-B products - those are for people who love red oak and leave phillips screw heads exposed on "fine furniture".

[Graham Haydon]

Hey Joe,

Thanks for the advice. There is not much on offer around here regarding guilds (I did serve a 3 year apprenticeship in Bench Joinery but it was not on period/handtool woodorking) the interweb as long as it's taken with a pinch of salt (when I'm posting at least) is the best way I have of finding out more. I might struggle with some of the aspects of hand tools but I'm quite lucky in that woodworking is my day job as it is my fathers, was my grandfathers and great grandfathers http://gshaydon.co.uk/ . I'm also lucky to have lot's of stuff hanging around from a pit saw to moulding planes that have built up over the years as we evolved from Wheelwrights into Joiners. The reason I knock about on the handtool sections of this and other forums is that it expands further on the stuff I read in books and helps give pointers when I'm working on my personal projects. Making work completely with hand tools was definately not part of what we did when I started work in 1998. However, hand tools are still used for refining when needed.
On the enjoyment, I love it. I get to do it on my terms without clients or deadlines, bliss! I still used power tools plently but the hand tool subject is one I really enjoy! Wish you the best to bro

G :)

[Winton Applegate]

Practical Home Woodworker" 1952 beside me (wife is out so I can indulge :))
Are you saying that is her book and would beat you if she caught you ?

Yah, I know how that is !
Got to be careful.:)

[Graham Haydon]

She beats me for much less than that!

[Joe Tilson]

Oh you will learn a lot here, for sure. but I must warn you a little of it is a lot of bull. Grain of salt for sure!:D

[Winton Applegate]

phillips screw heads exposed on "fine furniture".

AND we have the topic for a new thread:
Which is worse exposed phillips head screws or end grain on fine funiture?


takes about 10 seconds
I am sure that is true or even is longer than you actually take to set the iron.

It is ridiculous how those ten seconds "feel" like a long time to me.

[Sean Hughto]

AND we have the topic for a new thread:
Which is worse exposed phillips head screws or end grain on fine funiture?


Can we call it "outskirts of laziness" .. ya know, just to balance the "centre of effort"?

[Winton Applegate]

a lot of bull.

I appreciate that, Clark.

(Think : Christmas Vacation movie ; cousin Eddy who's "heart is bigger than his brain" scene )

[Winton Applegate]

outskirts of laziness

ha, ha,ha, ha
you got it !

[David Weaver]

AND we have the topic for a new thread:
Which is worse exposed phillips head screws or end grain on fine funiture?


I am sure that is true or even is longer than you actually take to set the iron.

It is ridiculous how those ten seconds "feel" like a long time to me.

It took longer than ten seconds the first dozen or two times I did it, for sure. There are a couple of old contrary woody planes that I have that really challenge your ability to guess "OK, if I have it there now, by the time i tighten the screw, then it will be down there instead.