Options course sharpening work - flattening new blades, reshaping bevels, etc. ?

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

At the risk of starting sectarian warfare, what would you suggest as a budget option for post heat treating course stock removal on steel blades?

I use scary sharp for most sharpening with good results. I also have a 1000/6000 waterstone and a medium oil stone. I'm finally going to start getting actual stones and move away from paper over time, starting with the courser end since I have plenty of paper 400 through 2000. The cost for the paper adds up when making a few blades and with the course papers (50-220) I have nothing but frustration. Higher grits lose the raspy feel quickly as they break in but keep working for a good while. The course papers never seem to do much at all. I've tried my normal mineral oil, thinner oils, water, etc. No luck.

When I sharpen with the water stone my hands dry and crack painfully. Gloves just make it hard to feel what I'm doing. So, while I like the oil stone more, I know so little about them. What grits/types would be appropriate? Would a diamond stone be much faster? For this use I would prefer to not have to flatten so much - I don't mind the water stone for finer stuff but really want to have a good flat surface for initial work.

What would you get and why (in other words, I'm not even sure what to ask)?
How long do diamond stones last? They seem to cost much more in general, do they just keep working and working, and do oil stones really wear out that much faster? The idea of not having to flatten a diamond stone is very appealing since I find even the very slight dishing makes a big difference on the backs or other non-microbeveled surfaces.
What grade/grit would be best for this use? The local HW store has little 220 DMT wallet cards that I was tempted to get just to try but I decided to save my money and ask - then spend it on the right thing in a more useful size. A very fine wallet card would be much more useful, in any case.
How often do oil stones need flattening?
Any other advice?

Thanks
Fitzhugh

[Jim Koepke]

For me some adhesive backed 80 grit on a 4' piece of granite seems to work fine. Then it is to the 1000, 4000 & 8000 grit water stones.

I keep a magnet covered in paper close by to remove the iron filings every few strokes.

A belt sander if one is available would be another option.

Oil stones do not seem to remove metal as quickly as water stones or abrasive papers for me.

jtk

[jim hedgpeth]

I have a double sided 300/1000 diamond stone that's great. I sometimes wish I had a more coarse one for removing deep gouges, but otherwise it cuts plenty fast. With a modest amount of patience it will regrind a different bevel angle if needed.

I have been using the scary sharp as well, and know what you are saying about not lasting long. I recently picked up a DMT 4000 to give it a shot, but haven't used it much yet.

Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Fitzhugh

Since your waterstone seems to work for you but causes dry hands, first try dealing with this problem. Add a little detergent to the water. It will keep both your hand and the stone cleaner. Also use a little moisturiser on your hands.

Diamond stones do wear out on steel, so they may disappoint you. Diamond paste is a cheaper alternative, but it is messy.

I find all sharpening can dry out the skin as it is the steel swarf that aids here - so it is important to keep your hands clean. Oil stones may help with lubricating both stone and hands, but these cut slowly at the coarse end of the spectrum. Waterstones dish rapidly in this range and require frequent flattening. You may find that you prefer sandpaper for the coarse side.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winton Applegate]

Cracking hands :
A gentleman in the Fine Woodworking Chat room turned me on to this lotion. It is serious, almost medicine, rather than just some cheep goop to make the best of things.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052FRF92/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Looks like the current price is seventy dollars. I paid forty something so you have to watch the bastards and shop for a decent price. Lasts many months though and worth it.
How ever . . . and I want to capitalize that so I will HOW EVER . . .
what you (and I ) put in our mouths for food has a HUGE effect on this split hands thing. Here are some things I have to stay away from especially durning the winter months. We are all different but perhaps one or two of them is contributing to your painful hands. I can almost watch my hands crack or heal in a day if I tangle with these or eliminate them after my hands start to crack:
raisins and other dried fruit
dried oats or oats in bread etc.
Whole grains in general ( I eat them in warm weather but have to eliminate all of them in winter)
Legumes (beans and peanuts).
Tree nuts with a lot of the dark skin left on. (if I scrub it off the walnuts or hazelnuts etc., no problem.
coconut oil in baked goods etc.


Now TO THE STONE
http://www.amazon.com/Shapton-White-Professional-Series-Waterstone/dp/B008NPSDAI/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1394932096&sr=8-7&keywords=shapton+professional
This is the fastest cutting coarse water stone I have come across.
A great stone !
You may still want to power grind to Geeeeeter done but as far as a bench stone this is the STUFF. I have 80 grit stones that don't cut as fast or stay as sharp.


As far as "Sand paper" have you tried the 60 or 80 grit blue belt sander belts ? Cloth really but still, if you don't push down with too much weight and too small of a sharp edge. These belts, cut to lay flat and glued down what have you. are pretty decent coarse abraders. Ceramic zirconia or some such.

Used dry; don't try to put any liquid on them.

http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Performance-Portable-Sanding-Zirconia/dp/B007563T32/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1394932767&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=bosch+zirconia+sanding+belt


The high quality diamond stones last pretty well. I don't have one more coarse than 220 and I found I needed much courser to flatten blade backs and even then it can take a while. I had the 220 diamond plate on the floor with most of my body weight on it out of frustration for quite a while to flatten the first generation Lie-Neilson blades (the recent LN blades are soooooo much better). The diamond plate manufacturer says definitely don't force them or put a lot of downward pressure on them but I was at my wits end after days of working the blade backs. I still didn't dull the diamond plates too much but I SURE didn't improve them any by abusing them this way.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Winton

I've been using Renew for some years now and give it the strongest recommendation.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winton Applegate]

Yeh Derek,
It WAS you that told me about it. I miss your photo you used over on FWW. I forget who I'm talking with.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

That's some great suggestions. I never thought about food having an impact on dry hands. It comes in waves, seemingly at random, not counting when I do stuff that screw's them up. Now I'll know to watch for correlations with what I eat.
I didn't know if was ok to add detergent to the water, was just sticking to straight water so I didn't mess up the stones. I'll try that and watch for the cost to dip on the lotion. If I can get my hands under control (uh, I oh nevermind) things will be much easier to figure out. In the mean time I'll try some of the blue belts.
The other problem I run into with water stones is being too flatten then when in use. Normally I just focus my use on any area I think is high. When trying to flatten large areas it seems to matter more if the stone is really flat, but it also restricts my ability to focus on an area while also wearing the stone faster. My understanding is you flatten stones dry. Is that wrong? Not sure where I got that. I just use paper on glass to flatten. Can I flatten stones while wet tat way? A two mapping plate is out of reach right now.

Thank you all,
Fitzhugh

[Curt Putnam]

I've recently acquired a 100 grit diamond stone from LV (it might be a DMT, but I forget.) It cuts rather quickly when new - which is all I've gotten it to. I've abused a couple EZE Lap diamond stones (400 & 1200 grits) trying to flatten a plane sole - probably ruined both sole and stones (learned to go to Tablesaw Tom). However they still cut and I use them for all manner of odd sharpening type duties - quickies on knives, initial honing after filing of scraper edges, damaged chisels and such. They are appx. 9 years old (unused for 4 of those years.) If you let the stone do the work, they will last for years. Power anything is better for the grunt work IMO. If you have the coin look at a 1 x 42" belt sander with Trizact belts. I have a Worksharp 3000 which will also do the job. If you have lots of coin consider a Tormek. If the cutter is at all important to me, I'm going to leave power at appx. 1000 grit and go to my water stones.

[Gary Kman]

If I do a lot of dirty shop work in the winter and wash my hands a lot I get painful long lasting splits. I keep a big pump bottle of cheap hand cream next to the shop door. I wash my hands with it and paper towel dry. Only use soap and water before I eat or am finished for the day. If I'm too late I glue the splits together with super glue.

I think any abrasive including diamonds set in tungsten will be shaved off if the cutting edge is pushed into it instead of pulling with the sharp edge trailing.

[Jim Matthews]

I've migrated to the Atoma diamond stones with light machine oil as a lubricant.
No flattening of the stones required.

No dust from using sandpaper.

No rust from water on steel. (Plates or irons)

They should last my lifetime.
(You're younger, you might need to replace a medium stone once - if you stay with it.)

The cheapest alternative is to haunt the auction sites for sandpaper lots.
They come up on occasion. Cheap sandpaper, spray glue and a granite plate is effective.

If you switch to a light oil for lubricant, you'll cut slower but avoid the dust/rust problem.

FYI - I hone a convex bevel by hand on all my chisels and plane irons.
It seems to work, at least with the softer steels I favor.

If you're using the excellent modern powdered steels, I recommend the Worksharp or Lee Valley sanding belt system.
I've seen very good, repeatable results from users that have committed to either as a method.

They're both fast, have relatively inexpensive sharpening media and can be tucked away when not in use.
I use the Lee Valley system when I have an older blade that must be ground back.

If you put a leather strop on the Lee Valley, you could touch up to a fine finish.

In practice, having four stones glued to a block means I can get a plane iron back in shape in less than 10 minutes.
(Half of that is deciding I should just get on with it...)

[Jim Matthews]

One more thing -

The local bricklayers wrap their fingertips with duct tape, for the same reasons you've described.
Gloves don't last, and they interfere with their business.

If you don't like the idea of taping up before sharpening,
consider "the Librarian's friend" from back in the day that cards were the catalog method of choice...

284870http://www.amazon.com/Reusable-Finger-Gloves-Versatile-Coverage/dp/B0002NYPGU/ref=pd_sim_indust_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=0BH8HBRGN2ZRTG7493FX

[David Weaver]

I've been using oilstones for a while now, no problem with hands, except black swarf. With waterstones, you either get black staining swarf (like on shaptons) or plenty of slop.

The absolute best thing that I have found for skin in general, and something that doesn't grease things up is a 50/50 mix of mineral oil and beeswax. The mineral oil should be something food grade or cosmetic grade if you're going to put it on your hands, though (probably everything sold at the food or retail consumer level is). I carry a small tin of the mix in my pocket all the time. About 3 or 4 years ago, I made what eddie castelin calls "sanding wax" but have found it to be superior to just about everything else at the retail level for skin, and it costs about $10 to make a quart, which you will never go through.

http://eddiecastelin.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/SandingWax.54184013.pdf

I get beeswax in pound blocks off of ebay from sellers who state their objective is not to use pesticides or spray their bees for anything.

This mix has so many uses, I'd not go without it now. It works as a sanding wax for turning (the mineral oil makes it movable), it works as a dry skin treatment (with no smell and a dull look, so you can see that you have it on, even if you put it on your face on a razorburn area), it works as a repair wax for furniture or floors that get a light scratch, and it works very well as a rust preventative.

the beeswax makes the whole mix a lot less transient and a lot less likely to come off your hands than plain mineral oil.

[David Weaver]

For practical purposes on the grind side, a medium crystolon stone makes a great grinding stone. They used to be really cheap, they're a little less so now in larger sizes (I have one in an IM 313), but at the same time, it doesn't make a great flat stone for backs - it's harder to keep flat and it doesn't work the same way on a large surface as it does on a small surface.

For backs, either kanaban with 100 grit diamond or a long run of glass (like a shelf) with PSA stick down 80 grit aluminum oxide paper. The PSA stick down is a little faster, but the loose diamonds are less trouble.

I'd rather use a grinder than a crystolon stone, but if I had no grinder, a crystolon stone would be fine.

[Jack Curtis]

...For backs, either kanaban with 100 grit diamond or a long run of glass (like a shelf) with PSA stick down 80 grit aluminum oxide paper. The PSA stick down is a little faster, but the loose diamonds are less trouble. ...

This is the first time I've seen anyone recommend loose diamonds on a kanaban. Do you mean an official kanaban or possibly a kanaban lookalike? I'd be reluctant to use my kanaban with diamonds, thinking they'd tear up the metal, wreck the kanabans' level (especially the huge Tsuenasaburo super level one), and generally muck them up. I use diamonds on an extra tablesaw cast iron table; but limit kanabans to silica.

[David Weaver]

Kanaban, as distributed in the united states by harima. Not a super mirror ground kanaban, but one that's about $25 and that you can resurface if it gets out of flat.

I generally find silicon carbide and aluminum oxide in loose form to be a waste of time when you're doing it manually. Better is getting most of the way on a flat platen and doing the rest by hand, but that's still going to be less accurate - it can be the only way in super badly pitted irons, though, that would be throwaway otherwise.

I don't use any kanaban of the precision and brightly ground type, I have too many stones to want to do anything like that.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Been away for a bit, not sure if you all will see this but I'll try...


Great help on the hands front! I tried just not washing with soap except when necessary, and not washing the dishes even though I historically was our dishwasher (she who currently washes the dishes deserves kudos for stepping up). Still have cracks but less. I'm going to try the other suggestions and see which is best for me. I tried taping and found it was rather awful, didn't really help since the white athletic tape just stayed soaked. I'll try the finger cots and order some beeswax, been wanting to have some around for a long time.

David, you say you prefer a grinder. Do you mean a belt grinder w/ platten?

Jim, I'm using simple high carbon steel in almost every case. I've started making my own blades and so will likely stick to it. If I don't know what I'm missing, hopefully I won't miss it. I have to say the atoma seem like just what I would like most, though way out of reach for the foreseeable future. I'll keep them in mind. I can't find the Lee Valley belt system you refer to.

Curt - how can you ruin ezlap stones and the iron? Real question, just not sure what to not do myself. I actually just got a cheap horror fright 1x30 that I used for initial shaping on some things but never considered using it to flatten anything - useless tool rest, belts I got all have a thick seem that makes the workpiece hop off the platten. I need to get some decent belts in any case so I'll see if it might work.

Winton - how long will those Norton 3x belts last? Will I use one up on a large plane back, for example? If not, that could be a good solution until I can get a stone.

It seems I'm not getting expected results from the course paper I've used. It is 3M wet/dry paper. I'll order some beeswax, some trizact belts and a few of those norton belts and see what I can do. What will help most is a permanent setup that is always right in reach, at the right height, has a cover, and ideally learn to sharpen most things freehand. I think water stones are out. Hand issues, having to make a portable "sink" of some sort or use the kitchen sink (setup, use, clean up, etc.), keeping flat, and likelihood of using something other than water stones for part of the process (major flattening/bevel changing)... there are good answers for each of those but all together it is a bit much.

Thanks for all the help here!
Fitzhugh

[David Weaver]

I was referring to the bevels for the crystolon stones. I don't love the crystolon stones on blade backs, but love them on blade bevels. Large flat surfaces (like backs) and iron and chisel bevels work very differently on a crystolon stone. The swarf ends up suspending the backs away a little bit and dubbing the edges and you don't get a crisp fast cut like you would on dry sandpaper. Bevels aren't a large enough surface to matter.

I do like a belt grinder with hard platen for blade backs when they are past the point of no hand-refurbishing return.

[Steve Friedman]

I can't find the Lee Valley belt system you refer to.

Here it is. http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=44884&cat=1,43072

Comes without the motor, but any small 1725 RPM motor will work. I know others can do it, but I have a hard time flattening backs on the 1 x 42 sander/grinder. Actually, I have a hard time keeping the back flat on any abrasive while it's spinning.

Steve

[Curt Putnam]

"Curt - how can you ruin ezlap stones and the iron? Real question, just not sure what to not do myself. I actually just got a cheap horror fright 1x30 that I used for initial shaping on some things but never considered using it to flatten anything - useless tool rest, belts I got all have a thick seem that makes the workpiece hop off the platten. I need to get some decent belts in any case so I'll see if it might work. "

Before I knew anything I bought the 1200 grit stone and tried to flatten the sole of a Craftsman # 4. I leaned on it, hard, trying to make something happen. Frustrated, I went and got a 400 grit stone and did the same thing. Didn't know about letting the stone do its work and may have crushed the diamonds (at the time I weighed about 250.) I really don't try to flatten anything on the belt sander. It can be done but some major jigging is required. I do use the belts for rough bevel grinding but prefer 80 grit on the Worksharp for that. Right now, a leather belt with green compound pretty much lives on the machine. It is superb for knives and long edges. Power stropping rocks! I've used the coarse Trizact belts on some work - the nature of which I've forgotten - but was totally impressed. Do get a leather belt.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Did the trizact belts have seams that were thicker than the rest of the belt? I'm hoping the ones I have are like that only because they are add cheap as you can get-got then from HF when I got the grinder.

HF is bad for many things but in the same order I got some wooden screw clamps. Not as good as Jorgenson but fine and cheap. Having no proper l woodworking vise and only bar clamps they at wonderful. Using two together as a vise was new to me. I wondered why they were used until I saw that and had to get some. I'd put them near the top of the list for new woodworkers on a budget.

I'll add a leather belt to my wish list.