Stanley 4 vs 4 1/2

[Scott Stewart]

So I am starting the slippery slope of being a good neanderthal. I am looking for a vintage smoother and at first glance like the 4 1/2. Looks to do more surface (more surface = harder to push) per swipe. What are the advantages of the 4 vs the 4 1/2 (other than being about $50 cheaper on fleabay).

Thanks for you answers.

Scott

[bridger berdel]

it's kind of a preference thing. a 4 will be a bit easier to use around tight spots, places where you have to deal with grain reversals, etc. if this sort of thing is an issue for you, a 2 or 3 might be in order

the 4 shares irons and chipbreakers with the 5. this can be convenient if you tend to do a bunch of sharpening at once. the 4-1/2 shares irons and chipbreakers with the 5-1/5, 6 and 7, something to consider for the same reason.

the 4-1/2 is heavier. some consider this an advantage, some consider it a disadvantage.

I have several 4s. I tend to reach for the 4-1/2 more.




So I am starting the slippery slope of being a good neanderthal. I am looking for a vintage smoother and at first glance like the 4 1/2. Looks to do more surface (more surface = harder to push) per swipe. What are the advantages of the 4 vs the 4 1/2 (other than being about $50 cheaper on fleabay).

Thanks for you answers.

Scott

[Frederick Skelly]

Scott, I cant give you a detailed comparison. But from things Ive read here and elsewhere it always seems to come down to the kind of work you plan to do, plus a fair amount of personal preference. There are guys who seem to love their 4 1/2, and guys who dump them. Im interested in the answers youll get.

Welcome to the slippery slope!
Fred

[Chris Griggs]

I like 4s better. I think they make smoothing quicker and easier since most boards will have cupped a little by the time you smooth them. The narrower sole is better able to navigate the cupping. I do like a large smoother/panel plane, but in those cases I prefer to jump up to a 5 1/2 or a 6.

Lots of people like 4 1/2s but they feel misproportioned to me...like they don't have the navigational advantages of a 4 or 3 nor do they keep things flat the way something equally as wide but longer gives you...that's just me though..maybe someday I'll find a love for 4 1/2, but I have yet to take much of a liking to them...YMMV

[Sean Hughto]

A lot more 4's were sold than 4 1/2's. Then again a lot more 5's were sold than 5 1/2's and yet I really like my 5 1/2 for flattening rough boards. Stanley made several sizes suitable for smoothing - 2/3/4/4.5 ~ sizes suitable for try work - 5/5.5/6 ~ and sizes for jointing - 7/8. The jack, as the name implies can stretch to do any of the tasks (at least pretty well), and my 7 gets plenty of work in flattening surfaces, not just jointing edges. But notice that the 4 1/2 is on the extreme end of the smoother range. One part of a smoother's defining characteristics is its relatively small sole that can ride any minor undulations. A 4 1/2 sole is that much wider, and therefore that much less "maneuverable" in the minor trenches, so to speak. I have a 4 1/2 and rarely reach for it. I guess I can't figure out the tasks were it meaningfully excels. But bottom line, this slope is slippery. You will have them all before long. So it don't really matter the order you buy them. <chuckle>

[David Weaver]

6 of 1, half dozen of the other. If your objective is to do work, either will do the same as the other before you're tired. The adages about doing more with a heavier plane (and the 4 1/2 bedrocks at least are a lot heavier) is hocum.

If money counts, get the 4. If it doesn't, get whatever you like better.

To me, the bedrock (and lie nielsen) 4 1/2s feel like planing with a double thickness frying pan. I use a 4 pretty much for everything, hard or soft, figured or not.

[Winton Applegate]

Here ya go . . .
I will try to boil it down to practical experience

What do you want to plane with it ? Your first projects coming up ?
This is how I see it :

If you need to plane a larger surface like a table top AND it is friendly wood like walnut or cherry etc. GET THE 4-1/2

Unless . . .
the LARGE surface you are going to plane is going to be unfriendly; like really hard stuff more along the lines of rock maple, bubinga, purple heart or the Australian woods I been learning about . . .
Then GET THE #4 because the blade is narrower and will cut longer and easier in the hard stuff.

If your projects coming up are smallish, boxes or small chests of drawers, spice cabinets etc then I think the #4

See how that goes ?

I went really wide right off for a couple of finish planes, because I was dumb/inexperienced and I thought why not go wide ?
For the harder stuff and for a finish plane I LEARNED better.
I still like my wide planes but they have more limitation, believe it or not than the narrower planes. Or lets say the narrower ones are MORE versatile.
anyway . . .

[Winton Applegate]

And further more . . .
I wish to amend that . . .
I think that since you are aiming at a nice vintage plane it is going to depend what comes your way and as some one said
you will have both eventually or a few of both
so
I suppose if a nice once in a life time deal shows up but you are going to make small stuff or large hard stuff then get the wide any way or visyversy.
I wouldn't want you to pass up the deal of a life time because of my post.
Heck, you can make either work just is not ideal for all projects.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I asked the same question about 20 years ago. At the time, it was suggested that the 4 1/2 had the heft of an infill which made it behave like a Norris A5. I figured that had to be better, so I bought one. Over the years, the planes have multiplied. I can now state the fairly obvious, the 4 1/2 is not an A5, and behaves nearly nothing like one.

As the true experts said above, it's a preference thing. It's good to have several planes tuned differently, use them, and you'll get a feel for what works best for you. Oh, and contrary to some of the entertaining but arcane debates here, there is usually not any one true answer, use what works for you. Personally, I would keep eyes open for a good deal on a #3 too, they make a very nice sized smoother, IMHO.

[Jim Koepke]

So I am starting the slippery slope of being a good neanderthal. I am looking for a vintage smoother and at first glance like the 4 1/2. Looks to do more surface (more surface = harder to push) per swipe. What are the advantages of the 4 vs the 4 1/2 (other than being about $50 cheaper on fleabay).

Thanks for you answers.

Scott

Scott,

Welcome to the Creek. I see you have been around awhile. Your location doesn't show in your profile. If you are in the Portland, OR area you could come by for a test drive.

If you are just starting down the slope my suggestion would be to keep your eyes open, things tend to pop up. Good #4s are all over the place. My #4-1/2 just appeared downstairs in an antique mall one day.

For me usage kind of goes in streaks. Sometimes the #4 is the plane that gets used. Lately my #3 & #4-1/2 get used a lot. It likely has to do more with which one is closer and has the sharpest blades.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I asked the same question about 20 years ago. At the time, it was suggested that the 4 1/2 had the heft of an infill which made it behave like a Norris A5. I figured that had to be better, so I bought one. Over the years, the planes have multiplied. I can now state the fairly obvious, the 4 1/2 is not an A5, and behaves nearly nothing like one.

As the true experts said above, it's a preference thing. It's good to have several planes tuned differently, use them, and you'll get a feel for what works best for you. Oh, and contrary to some of the entertaining but arcane debates here, there is usually not any one true answer, use what works for you. Personally, I would keep eyes open for a good deal on a #3 too, they make a very nice sized smoother, IMHO.

There are all kinds of -isms foisted on newbies, convincing them that people must've been dumb and poor years ago and got by mostly with cheap junk, thus hobbyists with the heels to do it should buy the bigger and heavier and rarer stuff.

Bucking tradition just for the sake of "doing better" than people who have a lifetime of experience doesn't usually yield a lot of tangible results, though. It does, however often result in a lot of wasted time and often a much ligther wallet.

Personally, as a lot of us have done, I started with the "i'll try the junk tools and see if I can get something for nothing" and went to the "I'll buy lots of nice stuff" and somehow settled on where I should've started - I'll buy quality stuff, but if quality isn't the most expensive, I have no need to spend needless money....except on sharpening stones, I'll waste a lot of money on those at times....that's really indefensible.

Anyway, if "blog cool club" says you should get a 4 1/2 (among 8 other specialty planes to smooth certain things) because they read someone else who said you should and they've never dimensioned a few hundred board feet from start to finish by hand, then I'd trust the trail of history about what was used by professionals.

(but even if you're a money sense type - even if it's selective - I will still pick up 4 1/2s when they're priced like 4s).

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Anyway, if "blog cool club" says you should get a 4 1/2 (among 8 other specialty planes to smooth certain things) because they read someone else who said you should and they've never dimensioned a few hundred board feet from start to finish by hand, then I'd trust the trail of history about what was used by professionals.

Completely agree. A while back, FWW did an article on why you need a compass plane. It was funny to watch the prices on the bay go up for a while. I have several compass planes, and can honestly say that I have never deliberately used one for anything other than just to try out.

I'd argue that the ability to differentiate quality from quantity is a foundation skill in hand tools. Keep in mind that two different classes of buyers exist in hand tools, collectors and users. It's fine to be both, but generally speaking, common planes are common because they worked well. That attribute makes them desirable to users, not so to collectors. Pick any of the boutique plane makers as an example, they are obviously collectors items, no one needs a $7000 plane, but as an investment in a work of art, they may make sense to some. Inversely, the #5, the most common plane in existence I think, which works pretty well in many situations, but is a horrible investment plane. So, to wrap it up, a nice Hotley smoother and an clean #5 in great condition may be equally valuable to different folks.


I also agree, I grab 4 1/2's if they are a good deal too. I like their proportions, they look right for some reason.

I think we'd all agree, pretty soon you'll want to try them all, so the slippery slope becomes a cliff at about this point.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, even if you can manage to stick to what was historically used or what is needed and can be used with great effect with some skill, the urge to try what's regarded as better is always a strong urge.

If it wasn't, nobody would buy infill planes or any premium tools, because there's no operation in woodworking where any of them are actually needed.

[Sean Hughto]

I have several compass planes, and can honestly say that I have never deliberately used one for anything other than just to try out.

Have you made any pieces with curves? Admittedly, compass planes are specialty planes, but like other special function planes, when the need arises, they are sure nice to have and use. I don't pull out my 113 on every project, but it's been good to me when I had curved stretchers and panels and so forth. I mean every moldinmg plane is a specialty, but when you want to make a bead it is nice to have a beader or when you want to make a tongue and groove, it's great to have a 48, and so forth.

[Pedro Reyes]

I own both and most times the one I grab is...

... the one I think is sharpest at that moment.

/p

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Have you made any pieces with curves? Admittedly, compass planes are specialty planes, but like other special function planes, when the need arises, they are sure nice to have and use. I don't pull out my 113 on every project, but it's been good to me when I had curved stretchers and panels and so forth. I mean every moldinmg plane is a specialty, but when you want to make a bead it is nice to have a beader or when you want to make a tongue and groove, it's great to have a 48, and so forth.

I have a preference for the federal period aesthetics, so not really many curves that aren't dealt with some other way. Pretty tight radius stuff, bandsaw and spokeshave type of work. I completely get the reason to have specialty planes, and wouldn't get rid of any of the compass planes, because I may dive into some other style at some point, and I'd just have to buy one then. Thats also the "logic" behind the plane collection pushing 300 strong...

A specialty plane can be often useful for one guy, and not for another because of the work they do. That being said, I use power tools too, but only if they make something easier. It boggles my mind the time someone will spend trying to get a router set up for a goofy cut, when a specialty plane could have done the job so much more efficiently. On the compass plane thought, ever seen how much work a power tool only guy makes a curved clamping caul? It's a good illustration of specialty planes ability to save labor.

[Terry Beadle]

I have a Stanley 4 1/2 set up with the PM3v11 blade and breaker. It does a super job. I give it a pretty good crown when sharpening so even though it has a wider blade it's easy to push due to the sharpening technique and the quality steel.

I don't own a #4 but I do own a #3 Clifton and it is also super. So like the guys said above, either will do the job and it's a matter of getting it set up, sharp, and practice, practice etc.

Also consider a coffin woodie smoother. They give you a great bank for you buck. I bought one on the Oregon coast a decade ago for $15. I was going to just use the blade out of it but .... Well... I put a new lignum sole on it and repaired the sole before it was applied. Then I sharpened the blade to my specs and I've used it often. I've long gotten my $15 out of it and as said above, because it's kept sharp and ready, it may be the one I reach for even though not the best smoother in my lot.

So U pik 'em !

Enjoy the shavings.

PS I also have an infill which is heavy and set for 1 ~ 2 thou shavings and a bed angle of 47 1//2 degrees. I will tackle very tough twitchy woods no problem.
Just sayin' it's a lot of fun and a good thing to have more than one arrow in your quiver.

[Don Dorn]

I'm fortunate enough to have a very nice Record 4 1/2 and a #4 Stanley in great shape. Of the two, I have found myself reaching for the #4 at least three times as much as the 4 1/2.

[Scott Stewart]

My current project list (subject to SWMBO's whims)

Panel Gauge
Built ins for both sides of fireplace
Roubo Bench
Anarchist Tool Chest
Small Jewelry Boxes x2
Cribbage Board/set
Band saw from Woodgears plans

It looks like more when I write it down. Hmmm.

Thanks for all your insight.

Scott

[Michael Ray Smith]

As others have pointed out, it turns out to be largely a matter of personal preference. . .which makes it hard to get an answer when you haven't had the change to figure out what your own preferences are. . .and also leads to the truism that others have pointed out, that you'll eventually have both. That said, here are two perspectives.

1. I use a No. 4 1/2 much more often than a No. 4. So much more often that I don't even have a No. 4 at this point. For the width and the extra heft, I like the No. 4 1/2 better. (Actually, I have the Millers Falls equivalent of a Stanley No. 4.) And if a No. 4 is too large, I'll use a plane that's both narrower and shorter. I spent the money for a No. 2 a few years ago and have never regretted it, but they do fetch a premium, and a No. 3 will is fine for smaller smoothing work. Or even a Veritas low angle block plane, fitted with the optional tote and knob.

2. I have a friend who recommends that new Neanderthals get a 4 1/2, a 5 1/2, and a 6 or 7. His rationale is that you also need to get modern replacement blades and cap irons for them, which are expensive, and those planes all use the same blade. So you can start out with a single blade and cap iron to use in all of them. I get his point, but that means that you don't have anything narrower than than the second widest standard bench plane. But even though I disagree with my friend on this one, I've done very well following his advice on other issues, so I thought I'd toss this perspective into the soup. If nothing else, it's a good example of why things come down to personal preference -- because different people weigh the advantages and disadvantages differently.

[bridger berdel]

about swapping blades to save money- blades for #4 and #5 are cheap and easy to come by. plain carbon steel blades are probably a better fit for a beginner, from an ease of sharpening standpoint. for those reasons, I think I'd lean toward recommending the #4/ #5 combination for someone just starting out.

[Chris Griggs]

His rationale is that you also need to get modern replacement blades and cap irons for them, which are expensive, and those planes all use the same blade.

Not meaning to be critical of you Michael, but your friend's rationale is, to me, faulty on multiple levels. The advice seems to be for newbs on a budget, yet the logic basically encourages one to unnecessarily spend money in a couple ways.

Replacement blades are in no way a need. They can be nice to have, but they are in no way shape of form a requirement. Not only does this advice encourage someone to spend money on aftermarket blades that are not required, but it then encourages them to buy more expensive planes to accommodate that expenditure. On top of that they'll have to change the blade around every time they want to use another plane.

Again, not intending to be critical of you or your friend, but personally, I would strongly discourage anyone to follow that advice based on that logic. If one just likes those sizes better, more power to them, and if someone likes and wants to use new blade/chipbreakers...well I'm all for that (they can certainly shorten the learning curve for someone learning to get an old plane working), but that logic seems to stem from a fundamental lack of understanding/experience using vintage Bailey planes.

Sorry that sounds harsh...its really not meant too...but I, personally, just really think that is bad advice, and, respectfully, I really would discourage anyone from adhering to that logic. YMMV.

[Tom M King]

I keep a 4 tuned for a fine shaving, and a 4-1/2 tuned for a really fine shaving which includes chip breaker mods. Also a couple of threes with different camber irons to match old plane mark profiles. it's nice not to have to fiddle with tuning for a particular need, and just grab the right one for the job.

[Scott Stewart]

Either way, I have money allocated for a hock blade. If I went to a 4 rather than a 4 1/2 I could do a hock chipbreaker as well. Is it a bad idea to use a hock blade with the stock chipbreaker?

[Chris Griggs]

Either way, I have money allocated for a hock blade. If I went to a 4 rather than a 4 1/2 I could do a hock chipbreaker as well. Is it a bad idea to use a hock blade with the stock chipbreaker?

Not at all a bad idea. Totally fine. When I do use an hock or other aftermarket blade I still prefer the stock chipbreaker.

[Derek Cohen]

My first Stanley plane was a #3, which I inherited from my FIL. The first Stanley I purchased was a #5 1/2, which I used for everything from roughing out, jointing edges to smoothing large panels.

The #3 lay on the shelf unused for years because I stuffed it up, and eventually the #5 1/2 joined it as it was too much the jack of all trades. By this stage I had begun to experience what other planes could do, and found that they were preferred. This included a stage when the #4 1/2 was the go-to smoother - largely on the advice of others. Large and heavy was "in". David Charlesworth's "super smoother" was a #5 1/2. I gravitated away from this to smaller smoothers. As the cutting angle increased, so a narrower plane became easier to use. This extends to the longer planes as well.

Today I prefer a #3 smoother. I have a Veritas Small BUS, LN #3, Brese infill (from a kit), HNT Gordon, and recently I restored my FIL's Stanley #3. There are also a couple of woodies I made.

The idea is flawed that a smoother should be chosen to have the same blade as its larger siblings. This is really only good in theory, and for those starting out since they will likely hone the blade the same way for all planes. However, as one becomes more proficient so the shape of the blade changes - blades become cambered, and the camber changes to suit the task the plane is intended to perform. As a result the blades are no longer interchangeable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Taglienti]

The only time I go for my 4 1/2 is for 1 3/4 and 2" face frame stock. It's nice to hit it in one pass. The idea that the extra 3/8 in width is going to do you any good on a large surface seems more academic than anything. I'm a bit irked by its excessive length though. I'd love to see a 4 1/2 that was about 8" long.

[Gordon Eyre]

I have a Stanley #4 and a LN 4 1/2 and the one of choice for me is the LN just because it is so dang pretty. :)

[Doug Bowman]

Just to settle this discussion I have purchased a Millers Falls #10 from tablesawtom. Given the important nature of this comparison my wife saw the necessity of the purchase and was fully supportive (I only got 1 "what the h@ll did you spend $xxx on NOW"). 😁😄

[Jim Koepke]

Is it a bad idea to use a hock blade with the stock chipbreaker?

Not at all.

I think it is my #8 that uses the stock chip breaker with a Hock blade.

As long as the chip breaker can be tuned to mate up properly to the blade it is fine.

jtk

[Daniel Sutton]

So I sent a pm to tablesawtom about a millers falls no 10 yesterday afternoon. Lucky you. I had been contemplating that plane since he posted it. I hope it works out as nice as it looked.

[Doug Bowman]

the ULTIMATE #4 vs. #4 1/2 showdown. :D Insert artsy B & W photo here285376

So my M-F 10 showed up from Tablesawtom and now I can settle this debate once and for all!!!!!!! (Sharpening with Sandpaper is also the best ever so there that is settled as well!) Representing the #4 side is my Bailey (also a Tablesawtom rehabee)

As usual tom took the stock blade and surface ground both sides. It did take a bit to establish a proper bevel as there was some pitting on the bevel but definitely not onerous. (maybe 10 minutes on my dry 6" grinder) then to my usual sharpening routine (I currently have 150 grit PSA to to start - then the 3M finishing films in the 2 coarser grits followed by and mdf strop with green crayon.) Did some minor frog adjustments and started started planing some soft maple I had for a box. Right away I liked it. I am a big guy - big hands and don't mind some weight to the plane. I prefer my #8 to my #7, so I clearly have some mental bias towards bigger, heavier planes. I did the same prep the my #4 and it was for some strange reason misbehaving(sibling rivalry?) It either did not cut or took a very heavy cut - I tried swapping blades to a laminated stanley blade I have - same results -- wound up removing the frog - cleaning out from under it and remounting it - after that it behaved. I still preferred the M-F #10 though. Even put wax on the bottom of the 4 and I still felt the #10 was smoother with no wax then the 4 with wax. So I am hooked. There you go - in the debate between 4 and 4 1/2 the 10 wins.