Dovetails, again...

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm a rank amatuer at hand cutting dovetails, so after a fairly successful evening of practicing, I found this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix3mphsKGJg

It's only a few mins long. Question, looking at all the gizmos on the market, you'd think dovetails were nearly impossible to mere mortals, but Mr Fuller illustrates more of what I think the approach must have been when people did this for money. Am I right?

[Chris Parks]

His is I would think close to how it used to be done in a day to day job as a furniture maker in days gone by. Frank Klaus's approach is similar in simplicity. I am yet to understand why everyone makes it so complicated with gadgets and measuring.

[Andrew Hughes]

It's easy to bang out a two pin board esp when it doesn't fit anything.When it's a drawer front and matching other wood.I am a more careful,And I bet others are same way.
When you have four sides and one chance there's time squaring and marking out that your just can't rush.
Heres one side of half blinds I did last weekend.

[Daniel Rode]

It's easy to bang out a two pin board esp when it doesn't fit anything.When it's a drawer front and matching other wood.I am a more careful,And I bet others are same way.
When you have four sides and one chance there's time squaring and marking out that your just can't rush.
Heres one side of half blinds I did last weekend.

Easy for you to say :)

I've been practicing cutting a 2 pin half-blind every night for over a week. It's not complicated but there's a skill that takes time and effort to develop. These look OK from a distance, but up close they still have some issues. I figure another few nights of practice and I'll be ready to make my drawers. It takes me over an hour per joint but I'm in no hurry.

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[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm on the practice each night schedule too, but with through, not half blinds. I messed up three different attempts last night by cutting on the wrong flipping side of the line. It was pretty impressive... Really helped when I quit trying to carry on a conversation while sawing.

Nice work, thanks for posting the pics.

Question about the video, Fuller attacks the board pretty seriously with that saw, anyone else do that?

[Sean Hughto]

Fuller appears to be using woods just a bit harder than styrofoam. That or he seems to have been able to sharpen his saws to levels heretofore unknown.

[Don Dorn]

His is I would think close to how it used to be done in a day to day job as a furniture maker in days gone by. Frank Klaus's approach is similar in simplicity. I am yet to understand why everyone makes it so complicated with gadgets and measuring.

I agree - got so spoiled with Klausz's method, I have difficulty spending the time to do it another way. Everyone seems to be tails firt to the point that I must be missing something. However, after experimentation with others, I revert to Frank and it works every time. Just goes to show you that you should leave with the one that took you to the dance.

[Metod Alif]

I use exactly the same process and am happy with it. I like his 'in front of the line - on the line' expression. Some favor removing the bulk of the waste with a coping saw. Which one is faster? I use Japanese saws and their kerf is too narrow for for coping saws. Thus, no experience. I would give it a try but I do not have (at present) any western dovetail saws.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Tom Vanzant]

Metod, I had the same experience when I tried Japanese saws...fret saw blade thicker than saw plate. It was chop-chop, and I stayed with that method when I went back to western saws.

[David Weaver]

Fuller appears to be using woods just a bit harder than styrofoam. That or he seems to have been able to sharpen his saws to levels heretofore unknown.

That seems to be par for the course for dovetail and plane use videos. Something that takes a saw stroke and that can literally be compressed together when you're done. Not just fuller, obviously (sellers, cosman, ....), I don't know anything about the guy, but I've never made a functioning drawer out of wood like that. A spoon would dent it. It probably knocks a lot of newbies for a loop when they have to take a whole 7 or so saw strokes (or maybe even 10 :eek:) to cut the tail on a soft maple board. That makes them rip for the sale of a "special dovetail saw" that cuts really really fast (but doesn't do anything to make layout faster or any of the parts of drawer making that actually take a significant amount of time).

[David Weaver]

I use exactly the same process and am happy with it. I like his 'in front of the line - on the line' expression. Some favor removing the bulk of the waste with a coping saw. Which one is faster? I use Japanese saws and their kerf is too narrow for for coping saws. Thus, no experience. I would give it a try but I do not have (at present) any western dovetail saws.
Best wishes,
Metod

If you have an aggressive coping saw blade (which is, in my opinion, the type to use for waste, anyway), you can cut straight down the middle of the tail to the corner and then right across the bottom as fast as you can cut just across the bottom with a fretsaw - and far fewer fiddling with broken blades.

But if you're already removing the waste with a chisel and have no issues, that would be like doing plumbing work on pipes that aren't leaking.

[Andrew Hughes]

The point I was trying to make,the stock for Dt drawers or cases should not be over looked.Careful selection for sides and preparing and then marking out.I have learned my lesson the hard way trying to fit a drawer with a twist or one side longer then the other.
If theirs a few gaps in the Dts on can always Sneek out to the shop at night when everyone's a sleep.And mix up some sawdust and glue or maybe some wedges.And carefully fix the problem and once the ego is satisfied time for rest.:)

[David Weaver]

stock selection is infinitely more important as a hand tooler, too. You might dimension 8 drawer sides and come back and dovetail them in a week.

Or worse yet, cut the sockets in large case at the end of an evening and come back a couple of days later to cut the tails. Anything that moves much creates more of a problem. IIRC when I was slamming things together with power tools, I rarely cut something and didn't have it glued shortly after. None of that was 16" long rows of HBDTs, but it all fit laser tight. When i go back and look at the first case I made with the assitance of hard core power tool woodworker, two things stick out
* all of the straight parts are plywood
* every joint and dado in it is so tight that you couldn't put any feeler in it Even long miters and noncritical edges are joined that way

That kind of stuff is torture - the design of that case was terrible! I even blew 20 coats of lacquer on it and rubbed it out - it's like it's encased in a glass tomb.

Dovetails are something we talk way too much about, they are a remedial joint that is easily learned with pratice - the only variable being how much practice. If two people cut the sockets out exactly the same way on an HBDT, I'd be surprised, but many of the instructional videos go on at length about the way that you "must" do the joint, in what should otherwise be something that isn't seen when you look at a piece, anyway. Those videos should be about choosing and orienting moulding instead. Our pieces would all look much better for it.

[Metod Alif]

David,
"you can cut straight down the middle of the tail to the corner and then right across the bottom as fast as you can cut just across the bottom with a fretsaw "
On a thicker stock (3/4", casework) it could have even some advantage (faster) than a chisel. As pointed before, the type of the lumber makes for different 'optimal' approaches.
Best wishes,
Mtod

[Chris Griggs]

Your dovetails are more fine Daniel. Seriously, they look pretty darn good. You are at a point where its time to move on from nightly practice in scrap boards. You will get far more insight/development at this point by using the joint in project. Go to it...don't worry if they're not perfect. Trust me on this. You will learn things in the context of a project that you just can't get out of repeatedly cutting a single joint. Doesn't have to be a big project, even a simple box will do a lot to take you to the next level.

As far as DT vids go...I agree with the styrofoam wood. Actually what one usually sees is styrfoam being joined to something dark and harder..e.g. hemlock joined to walnut. Because one wood yields and the other doesn't you can essentially just bash the tail board into the pin board and get a nice looking joint. The soft wood will compress and the dark wood will minimize the appearance of any gaps. Not that that's a bad strategy for ones actual work...indeed most drawers will be a hardwood with some color joined to something lighter and softer...but I always find it amusing when that's the approach used to "showcase" dovetailing skills. Dovetails schmuvtails....I wish there were half as many videos of folks making f&p doors totally by hand that turn out totally clean and flat/without twist...that's a heck of a lot harder to do.

....none of that is to belittle the challenge of first learning them btw, they are, like most woodworking skills, a challenge at first...took me a couple months to stop splitting my tails boards. They just get so much attention for something that in the bigger scheme of things is a fairly basic joint.


Oh, almost forgot. To the OP, I sometimes use a dovetail marking guide to layout my angle and sometimes don't. I sometimes layout perfectly even spacing and sometimes don't. I do ALWAYS, mark a square line across the end grain of my tail board, even if I'm just eyeballing the spacing of these lines. I find that actually marking the square line helps me avoid any fitting issue before they happen.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Oh, almost forgot. To the OP, I sometimes use a dovetail marking guide to layout my angle and sometimes don't. I sometimes layout perfectly even spacing and sometimes don't. I do ALWAYS, mark a square line across the end grain of my tail board, even if I'm just eyeballing the spacing of these lines. I find that actually marking the square line helps me avoid any fitting issue before they happen.

I thought I'd try to not mark the ends last night during the session, and promptly cut a twisted tail. Makes fitting the pins a bit challenging.

New question for you all, I had been practising on salvaged some pine sheeting, switched to poplar last night. My knife marks looked completely different on the clean lighter colored wood. It got me wondering, how deeply do you score with your marking knife? Just deep enough to register the chisels, or deep enough to see easily? I followed the score with a pencil to get them to stand out, but was wondering how deep to go.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Chris. My practice is more directed than it might appear. I need to build a pair of drawers. The practice joints I'm cutting use the same woods (white oak and clear pine) and are the same width and thicknesses. Little by little I've been improving my ability to cut the joint and also experimenting with the layout.

Last night's practice looks suspiciously like the prior 2 nights :) I actually glued this one up, planed it smooth and a quick coat of shellac so I could be sure I liked the contrast.

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Dovetails, along with M&T joints, are IMO very important to those new to woodworking with hand tools. The skills required to make these joints are foundational. The lessons learned at this stage are building blocks.

[Daniel Rode]

For me, it's all about the lighting. I have a small swing arm lamp on the work bench that I move from side to side to get light in the right place at the right direction. Even with that, sometimes I need to hit trace the lines with pencil. A fine mechanical pencil works well but a very sharp pencil also works. I actually use a chisel to make a flat wedge shaped point if I use a standard #2.


My knife marks looked completely different on the clean lighter colored wood. It got me wondering, how deeply do you score with your marking knife? Just deep enough to register the chisels, or deep enough to see easily? I followed the score with a pencil to get them to stand out, but was wondering how deep to go.

[Chris Griggs]

That's a good practice strategy. And again, that joint looks good to me. I'd say go ahead and build the drawers, but of course, there is never anything wrong with setting ones sights ever higher. Glad to see you are having so much success.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Daniel

Your dovetails look very good to me. They look more than ready for your drawers. Indeed, they look good enough to grace the best of drawers.

Dovetails certainly bring out the emotions in forumites. It is the same with BU vs BD, freehand vs guides, etc, etc.

I am not sure what to make of those who state that they do not use markers - is this the equivalent of someone saying that they do not use a honing guide? Machismo?

I am not sure about the best American furniture, but the best Olde and modern English and Australian furniture makers took/take pride in all aspects of their work, and dovetails were no exception. Of the modern era, look at the work of Allan Peters. There were an awful lot of slim dovetails cut. They are not a recent affectation.

I generally like the work of Jim Krenov. Some do, some don't. Most of us, at any rate, credit him with vitalising awareness of design elements. One of these elements was dovetailing. Did he use a marker? I don't know. It doesn't matter. It's like sharpening - whatever helps. I use dovetail markers because they help me decide the angle and spacing that fits the piece and becomes part of the design. More strength to you if you can do this without a marker.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Completionoftheproject_html_m7cedb66c.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Dovetail%20Cabinet/Drawers/Lastlap-dovetails3.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

My parents accumulate mid-range american furniture (that's probably 150-250 years old - that kind of thing is readily available in central PA without paying an arm and a leg), and even on that, the dovetails are neatly made and the drawer sides are thinner stock. There may be some overcuts here or there, but the proportions are very similar to yours derek.

There may be sloppy dovetails on very cheap furniture, but even on the midrange furniture that I have seen (albeit I have never gone out of my way to study furniture or have an official answer on something like this) the work is competently done and obviously by a professional with good proportions. The only thing that comes to mind is the space between the pins aren't quite as tiny, probably because they didn't have to concern themselves at that time with leaving proof of execution manually via tail proportions.

The selection of the nice quartered sides on your drawer, the proportions and the nice simple bead make that drawer look very authentic and handsome. The piece itself is very similar to a lot of the kind of furniture my parents pick up (raised panel doors with pinned M&T joints and a straight forward bead). They are not educated furniture buyers so much as they know enough spot hand made stuff and to avoid junk.