plane handle configuration (new thread)

[bridger berdel]

so I have a plane I built that I am thinking of modifying. at the moment it is too heavy, single iron, high angle and handle less. I'm considering finding a cap iron for it, reworking the bedding and wedge to accommodate that, cutting the body down to more of a razee shape and adding a tote. My first question is this:

on the old style totes which were offset from the centerline of the plane, were they offset toward the users side of the plane or away, and was there any tilt or skew to that handle?



here's the quote from George Wilson from another thread:

"The 18th. C. jack planes and other handled planes we copied were made so that the web of the thumb was used to push the handle. The rest of the fingers rested down the side of the plane. The handle was close to the side of the plane to facilitate this,and the handle was purposely made too short to allow for the palm (of the hand) grip. This prevented the development of carpal tunnel in the hard working,long hours of the daily plane pushing joiner. The coffin smoother offered a wide,rounded,again,less stressful rest for the palm. The force of pushing was spread out as much as possible in their design,especially in the designs of the earlier coffin type smoothers. These smoothers were also just used for final smoothing,not for the harder work of dressing rough sawn lumber flat and parallel. Their rough lumber was no where nearly as accurately sawn as our modern machine sawn product. Thus,comfort and non hand damaging hand planes were even more important than they are now,or in the 19th. C.,when accurately machine sawn lumber became available. The skill of the pit sawyer was very important back then,in supplying as accurate and "lump" free a product as possible. American wood was regarded as 2nd. quality because colonial sawyers in general did not have the developmental skills of the English in sawing straight and true.

Those people were just as smart as we are,and they used their tools many,many times harder than we do,especially those of us who are on a hobby level. They knew what was best,and knew it better than us latter day occasional plane users.

I am sticking with their hard earned centuries of daily toil.

Even the flat,straight handled planes of the French style averted carpal tunnel better than modern designs. Their horn or snail shaped front grips again offered additional pushing points where the web of the hand was used,not the palm.

Seen in these pictures are a sample of the 18th. C. reproduction jack planes we copied assiduously,and a plane I made with the snail front grip,and a rear grip where the web of the thumb did the pushing. A small picture of one of the batches of planes we made for the museum. I did not get pictures made of all the tools we put out due to the delays and expense of getting the professional photographer over. Plus,earlier,I regarded ordinary tools as too ordinary to bother with,and only shot retirement gifts that were especially nice.

That front snail grip is decorative,but does allow effectively for the web of the thumb to be used to grip there,and help in pushing the plane. But,what can you say about the French? Even their soldiers were allowed to spill their guts over finer laces.:)

If you use the enclosed rule to scale the USEFUL height of the jack plane handle(remember to allow for the portion that was mortised into the body,you will see that this handle is only 2 3/4" tall up to the place where the thumb web would rest. It is entirely too short to get a full,modern style grip on. The thumb web ONLY is designed to push this plane.

Note the jack plane's handle is offset to the side of the plane. In Elizabethan times,the handles were completely flush with the edge on English tools recovered from the 16th. C. wreckage of the Mary Rose."

[Pat Barry]

I'd love to see someone try the pushing a plane with the web of your thumb and forefinger method although I can't fathom that as being comfortable or very strong in terms of hand position. I think though, its worth a shot. I was going to repost George's picture but not really sure which on he is referring to

[Jim Koepke]

The answer is right there:


The rest of the fingers rested down the side of the plane.

For a right hander to have "the rest of the fingers rested down the side of the plane" the tote would have to be toward the right side of the plane looking from the top.

My comment on this was before having a tote on a larger plane it was likely for the worker to have one hand on the front of the plane and the other toward the back. After a lot of work and a bit of sweat, the plane body probably got a bit slick. The first tote may have been just a rounded block of wood nailed to the top of a plane to keep the back hand from slipping.

jtk

[David Weaver]

The web between the thumb and forefinger is ideal. If you look at the shape of the handle, you'll actually have contact down the to the middle of your palm at your wrist. Speaking as someone with finger soreness issues (mild arthritis, I guess), anything that keeps you from putting tension on your fingers is ideal. The meat running down your hand between your thumb and forefinger to the lower middle of your palm is plenty tough and you can't close your grip holding a plane that way.

Because of my finger soreness issues and lack of a desire to keep a tight grip, even on planes where I can get a full hand on the handle, I still push with that part of my hand, from the web of the thumb and forefinger to the lower middle of my palm - you'll note that's where the bulge in the handle will contact your hand, anyway.

Bridger, the handle should be on the far side of the plane from where you're oriented, as jim said.

[george wilson]

Ah,but Pat: The workmen in the old days who had to work much harder than any of us,knew exactly what they were doing. So,you should not dismiss what they did just because you THINK it might not be comfortable. You may find,as I have many times,that what you imagine may not be how it really works. So,try it first.

[Adam Cruea]

The web between the thumb and forefinger is ideal. If you look at the shape of the handle, you'll actually have contact down the to the middle of your palm at your wrist. Speaking as someone with finger soreness issues (mild arthritis, I guess), anything that keeps you from putting tension on your fingers is ideal. The meat running down your hand between your thumb and forefinger to the lower middle of your palm is plenty tough and you can't close your grip holding a plane that way.

Because of my finger soreness issues and lack of a desire to keep a tight grip, even on planes where I can get a full hand on the handle, I still push with that part of my hand, from the web of the thumb and forefinger to the lower middle of my palm - you'll note that's where the bulge in the handle will contact your hand, anyway.

Bridger, the handle should be on the far side of the plane from where you're oriented, as jim said.

Stupid question, but because of this, do you have a callous almost right at the base of that muscle?

[Matthew N. Masail]

now I really want to try it.... why do this to me? why1?!?!:)

[David Weaver]

Stupid question, but because of this, do you have a callous almost right at the base of that muscle?

I don't think so, but I do have a hand that doesn't feel bruised now, whereas it used to. My handles are all pretty slick, so I don't really have any callous issues from them. If I get a new plane and the handle is shaped such that it'll rub some other part of my palm, I notice it pretty quickly (via a red sore spot), though.

I don't have hands that get away from being soft very easily, though - not that they're weak, they just don't get scratchy and hardened - which leads my dad to always remark about how I have "soft hands" because I've "never worked".

[Steve Voigt]

Anybody who wants to see good reproductions of offset totes can just look at the old street website (http://planemaker.com/products.html). To me, their handles look a bit more modern than the ones George posted. I would be interested to hear any thoughts George has on the differences between these types.
Also, keep in mind what George said in the other thread: even though he thinks the 18th c. offset totes are ergonomically better, the totes he makes for his own users are more the 19th c. style, and they're fine, because he's not using them 12 hrs. a day. I couldn't agree more. The totes I make for myself look a lot like the old street totes, but are centered. Even the first one I made is more comfortable than the Stanley totes. I found this article very helpful for getting started:
http://www.oocities.org/plybench/handle.html

- Steve

[Pat Barry]

Ah,but Pat: The workmen in the old days who had to work much harder than any of us,knew exactly what they were doing. So,you should not dismiss what they did just because you THINK it might not be comfortable. You may find,as I have many times,that what you imagine may not be how it really works. So,try it first.
George, it is senseless to try that method if you and others who think pushing with the web of your hand is best because it isn't. No one would ever intentionally push on anything with force using the web of their hand - the natural position would be to use the heel of your hand to generate force. What sense in using the web. In fact, I challenge you to actually use that method. In fact find an illustration anywhere of that as the preferred method of generating force for this type of motion. If the workmen of old were using that method it is purely from a lack of understanding. Perhaps a mis-interpretation of what they were doing based on a faulty observation. That type of thing is evidenced time and again. Someone finds an artifact, thinks they have a story on how it worked, and then are proven wrong.

[Steve Voigt]

George, it is senseless to try that method if you and others who think pushing with the web of your hand is best because it isn't. No one would ever intentionally push on anything with force using the web of their hand - the natural position would be to use the heel of your hand to generate force. What sense in using the web. In fact, I challenge you to actually use that method. In fact find an illustration anywhere of that as the preferred method of generating force for this type of motion. If the workmen of old were using that method it is purely from a lack of understanding. Perhaps a mis-interpretation of what they were doing based on a faulty observation. That type of thing is evidenced time and again. Someone finds an artifact, thinks they have a story on how it worked, and then are proven wrong.

To see that George is right, all you have to do is try it yourself. Assuming you are using (1) a proper (and historically correct) 3-finger grip, with index finger extended; (2) a reasonably low bench (again, as would have been used in the 18th/19 centuries); (3) keeping your wrist straight; (4)leaning forward, into the work, not back on your heels…

Assuming you are doing these things, there is no way you can concentrate the majority of force on the heel of your hand. The only way you can do it is to bend your wrist sharply, which will definitely cause pain at some point.

This all brings up the point that technique is at least 50% of the equation. A stock stanley handle used with good technique, a sharp blade, and an appropriate depth of cut, should not cause a lot of problems. Conversely, the best handle in the world will be quite painful in the hands of an inept user.

[David Weaver]

George, it is senseless to try that method if you and others who think pushing with the web of your hand is best because it isn't. No one would ever intentionally push on anything with force using the web of their hand - the natural position would be to use the heel of your hand to generate force. What sense in using the web. In fact, I challenge you to actually use that method. In fact find an illustration anywhere of that as the preferred method of generating force for this type of motion. If the workmen of old were using that method it is purely from a lack of understanding. Perhaps a mis-interpretation of what they were doing based on a faulty observation. That type of thing is evidenced time and again. Someone finds an artifact, thinks they have a story on how it worked, and then are proven wrong.

Pat, the heel of your hand is a poor method because it does not tolerate impact very well. It seems that what's missing between george's answer and your supposition is experience. trace the web of your thumb just inside the witness line or whatever that palm readers line down to just outside of the line on the other side of your wrist tendon. The shape of the plane handle fits through there. Going only at the heel of your hand would be like riding a wagon without suspension.

You're not going to be able to duplicate what george is talking about without having a tool that has an offset tote, though.

What makes me think george is correct is purely practice. I have, I guess, five continental smoothers. One of the vintage craftsman made smoothers that I have does not have anything that fits in the web between your thumb and forefinger, but the others do. The first is extremely uncomfortable to use for a long period of time because it batters the heel of your hand - there is no other area for it to contact. There is no such problem with the others, and the club chair shaped fixture in the back can fit only the web between your forefinger and thumb - there is no other way to grip it.

[Pat Barry]

Pat, the heel of your hand is a poor method because it does not tolerate impact very well. It seems that what's missing between george's answer and your supposition is experience. trace the web of your thumb just inside the witness line or whatever that palm readers line down to just outside of the line on the other side of your wrist tendon. The shape of the plane handle fits through there. Going only at the heel of your hand would be like riding a wagon without suspension.

You're not going to be able to duplicate what george is talking about without having a tool that has an offset tote, though.

What makes me think george is correct is purely practice. I have, I guess, five continental smoothers. One of the vintage craftsman made smoothers that I have does not have anything that fits in the web between your thumb and forefinger, but the others do. The first is extremely uncomfortable to use for a long period of time because it batters the heel of your hand - there is no other area for it to contact. There is no such problem with the others, and the club chair shaped fixture in the back can fit only the web between your forefinger and thumb - there is no other way to grip it.

Then perhaps David, either you, or George or perhaps even Steve could do us all a big favor and snap a photo or two of the proper way to grip a plane with an obviously too small handle. A couple angles including top view (as seen by the woodworker) and the side view wherein you can see all the crazy angles that Steve is referring to which seem so natural and comfortable. And please, not someones 'little girl hand' either. JK - apologies to Winton for that comment

[george wilson]

Pat,I did not make any left handed planes with the handle offset on the opposite side. No one asked me to,and I was not making planes for myself. Mack Headley,the Master Cabinet Maker is the person I cited here. He is a World class master craftsman,and he believes the handles were indeed made to be pushed as I described. He has used my jack plane for years and is quite satisfied. He retired a few months ago.

I am not going to make a special left handed 18th. C. jack plane just to continue this discussion for 2 reasons: 1; I don't want one,and I have other paying work to do. 2.; I doubt you would believe me anyway because your mind is already made up. It should be you who makes and tries the plane to check for your own comfort level. This is the only way you can reach an experienced conclusion. I think this is the logical way for you to proceed.

I do not have a jack plane at home to make pictures of the correct grip,sorry.

[David Weaver]

I have little girl hands, too!

I don't have any short toted offset planes like george was talking about, but made the comments based on what does and doesn't crank up my mildly arthritic fingers. Hammers for me are a real problem, especially if doing somthing like peining a plane together, because you can't help but grip a hammer a little more tightly.

Have a look at this thing, and look at the fixture under the iron.
http://www.mujingfang.com/eng/itemdetails.asp?id=FE1179%2D050&SpecialOffer=&rec=4&sql=select+%2A+from+Item%5Fe1+WHERE+Status%3C%3E%2 7Hidden%27+and+ItemClass1%3D%27Woodworking+Tools+S eries%27+and+ItemClass2%3D%27European%2DStyle+Benc h+Planes%27

It illustrates what I'm talking about. In an offset handle, you'd have the web of your hand placed like it is in this thing and fingers that didn't fit under the handle would go over the side of the plane and on the body.

I have planes up to 200 years old, and none have an offset handle, they all have a full height handle in the middle, so I can't give you a better idea of what the grip would be on a short handled bench plane, but knowing how easy it is to use the plane pictured above, without finger soreness, I'd welcome a simlar grip.

If you picture the same plane as above without that fixture under the iron, then the brunt of the force ends up at the heel of your hand. I have two planes like that also, and in heavy work, they can torture you. One is an inexpensive mass produced plane from the mid 1900s, and the other is what looks like a dutch or german shop made plane with some carving in it. In both cases, the maker's missed the boat. They are rounded off in the back, but it doesn't matter, they still hurt.

[David Weaver]

1; I don't want one,and I have other paying work to do.

Well, if you don't want to make a left handed one for pay, you could make me a right handed one for free :)

Double iron.

[george wilson]

I do not have any 4x4's of beechwood,and my thick maple is BURIED in the garden shed. It would at least have to be brought indoors to acclimate.

Besides,I have a very painful worn out right thumb joint from thumb picking guitars since 1952. Right now I cannot stand the shock of striking anything like a stamp or a chisel that is held in my right hand(with the necessary thumb). I dread the surgery as I hear it is painful to recover from. But,sooner or later,I will have to get it,and will have my hand in a cast for 6 weeks so I can't even cut my own food.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, I'm just kidding.

[Steve Voigt]

Then perhaps David, either you, or George or perhaps even Steve could do us all a big favor and snap a photo or two of the proper way to grip a plane with an obviously too small handle. A couple angles including top view (as seen by the woodworker) and the side view wherein you can see all the crazy angles that Steve is referring to which seem so natural and comfortable...

"Even Steven," that's what they used to call me. As in "even Steven catches the football sometimes!"
Pat, I'm not sure what you mean by "the crazy angles that Steve is referring to." I don't think I referred to any angles at all.
To be clear, my comments above didn't refer exclusively to the short handles George was talking about. And I don't think a photograph is necessary. As I said before, if you grip a Stanley or British/American style woodie tote the way I described in my previous post, you'll see that the heel of your hand doesn't even come into contact with the tote. You can bring it into contact by (1) bending your wrist or (2) squeezing your fingers tightly, but neither of those things is good practice.

[Graham Haydon]

Does anyone have scaled drawing of some 18th century planes please? I have plently of projects to do already but I would dearly like to make one and use it. I bought a £1.00 Jack Plane from UK ebay, it's a delight to use. I have no idea on it's age, perhaps someone could advise me?

284326

I have a wooden Try also but it's perhaps a 19th cent beast and feels less nimble. I have taken a look at the Old Street Tool site which is good but unless I have sizes and positions of totes there seems little point embarking on making this and not making use of the retained knowledge set into the planes.

If anyone want to see, pick fault with how I use the jack I did a short vid (http://youtu.be/0b8BchfQSAw?t=1m37s) . I found the Try was a nuisance for clogging. It seemed wood got crinkled and jambed in the mouth, the cap iron/blade junction always seemed fine. It would work fine sometimes, perhaps someone with more experience could help me on that too. I'm not claiming to be an expert with any of this, most of my planing is done on one of these (http://www.axminster.co.uk/griggio-g-22-quadro-four-side-planer).

[Steve Voigt]

Does anyone have scaled drawing of some 18th century planes please?

Go to caleb james' blog (http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.com/) and search around. He has a bunch.

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks Steve,

Caleb has the smoother http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/wooden-smoothing-plane-plans.html and jack http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/free-wooden-jack-plane-plans-18th.html a Try would be nice :)

[george wilson]

Graham,your plane is a late one,either late 19th,or early 20th. C.. It can easily be determined by the type of treatment around the body of the plane. 18th. C. planes have nice big,bold bevels. Almost at 45 degrees. They have round top wedges,and (if the iron is original),a round top iron. Irons frequently were replaced. A lot of old time craftsmen would have 3 or 4 irons which were sharpened up in the morning,and would last all day. They got swapped,or worn out and replaced.

I'm not a collector. I buy tools to use. But,next,the bevels are tall,but much steeper. The long angles seen on your late plane are shorter,chopped off at 45º. Later,the irons get the modern tall bevel. The final edge treatment was the edges just rounded like yours is.

I don't know the time lines for these features,not being a collector. I don't usually collect dates or closely classify data like collectors do. Of course,I am the most familiar with 18th. C. types,since I've made a lot of them as toolmaker in the museum.

[Pat Barry]

To see that George is right, all you have to do is try it yourself. Assuming you are using (1) a proper (and historically correct) 3-finger grip, with index finger extended; (2) a reasonably low bench (again, as would have been used in the 18th/19 centuries); (3) keeping your wrist straight; (4)leaning forward, into the work, not back on your heels…

Assuming you are doing these things, there is no way you can concentrate the majority of force on the heel of your hand. The only way you can do it is to bend your wrist sharply, which will definitely cause pain at some point.

This all brings up the point that technique is at least 50% of the equation. A stock stanley handle used with good technique, a sharp blade, and an appropriate depth of cut, should not cause a lot of problems. Conversely, the best handle in the world will be quite painful in the hands of an inept user.

OK - I'll clarify

1) a proper (and historically correct) 3-finger grip, with index finger extended; ---- Is this really the historically correct grip or are we just guessing because thats the only way a comfortable grip can be accomplished now that people are generally bigger??
2) a reasonably low bench (again, as would have been used in the 18th/19 centuries) --- when people were shorter and lower benches therefore were better match for their physical size??
3) keeping your wrist straight --- please define straight wrist - this is where the picture would be super helpful because a straight wrist to me means my hand is oriented vertically with the heel (OK - I really mean the base of the thumb junction with the wrist) on the base of the handle. Note: I went to the gym today and spent time doing pushing exercise - lifting weights and I've got to tell you that doing a bench press or other pushing task with the force concentrated on the web of my hand was painful. On the other hand, I found the natural strong position to be with the bar basically oriented along the base of my thumb up to the wrist joint. Maybe I just learned it wrong and now that's the way I'm used to it. I've been wrong before.
4) leaning forward, into the work, not back on your heels…--- I don't disagree with this at all. That's good - now we have common ground to discuss further.

I'd still appreciate a picture from you as I requested earlier. When I get a chance and can find my camera cable I'll reciprocate

[Pat Barry]

I wanted to illustrate further to help clarify so I found and illustrated this picture.

284334

Note - he may have been the victim of a power tool incident - maybe should have had a Sawstop - injuries depicted certainly not due to planing 10 hours per day

[David Weaver]

Does anyone have scaled drawing of some 18th century planes please? I have plently of projects to do already but I would dearly like to make one and use it. I bought a £1.00 Jack Plane from UK ebay, it's a delight to use. I have no idea on it's age, perhaps someone could advise me?

284326

I have a wooden Try also but it's perhaps a 19th cent beast and feels less nimble. I have taken a look at the Old Street Tool site which is good but unless I have sizes and positions of totes there seems little point embarking on making this and not making use of the retained knowledge set into the planes.

If anyone want to see, pick fault with how I use the jack I did a short vid (http://youtu.be/0b8BchfQSAw?t=1m37s) . I found the Try was a nuisance for clogging. It seemed wood got crinkled and jambed in the mouth, the cap iron/blade junction always seemed fine. It would work fine sometimes, perhaps someone with more experience could help me on that too. I'm not claiming to be an expert with any of this, most of my planing is done on one of these (http://www.axminster.co.uk/griggio-g-22-quadro-four-side-planer).

Can't complain about a quid.

Where is the try plane clogging? is it at the corners at the tips of the wedge or around there somewhere at the bottom of the abutments?

If it's not just at the corners of the wedge, but in the middle, too without planing at the edge, it could be that the escapement needs work.

[Pat Barry]

One additional photo that I hope conveys my point:
284340
Again, this is not a hand injury caused by handplaning using modern or 18th C methods.

[David Weaver]

How did you go from the base of the hand (in your earlier post you advocated the base of the hand - the part you'd use if you were trying to hand hammer a joint shut) to the part from the web to the base of the thumb that I mentioned earlier?

The web of your hand is also engaged in planing, heavily. If you think it's not, take the horn off of a plane, or better yet, leave a nub of a horn, and watch what happens.

[george wilson]

Pat,what conceivable relationship do you see between a painful accident and pushing a plane? And,how many pounds do you think it takes to push a plane Vs trying to lift weights with the web of the thumb? I am sorry,I really fail to see how these correlate.

Yes,cutting the heck out of ANY part of your hand will hurt like crazy. That is for sure. But,developing numbing of your hands could cause starvation if you were a joiner in the old days,and even into the earlier 20th. C.,before workmen had some legal rights and before social security came along. Life was cruel,and every day,you had to work for barely enough to scrape by.

[Ryan Mooney]

I wanted to illustrate further to help clarify so I found and illustrated this picture.

284334

Note - he may have been the victim of a power tool incident - maybe should have had a Sawstop - injuries depicted certainly not due to planing 10 hours per day

I find this discussion interesting because I have a reasonably rough case of carpal tunnel from years of computer work (occupational hazard). I was playing around with some play dough (which I use as a hand exerciser at work to keep the carpal tunnel at a dull roar) on the edge of the desk so see where I could "feel" it (its in full roar this week so its a "good" time to test I guess.. sigh). I'm going to claim somewhere near the upper/middle of the pad with my hand straight (in line) with my wrist was the most comfortable (or at least caused the least pain :D). Having the fingers extended definitely helped (it seems to put less strain on the carpal tunnel). I think there may be some definitional hand waving about where the pad ends and the web begins.

Thanks to all for the links to some more plane design links/pictures. A woody Jack is on my TODO list so I'm filing these away for reference.

[Steve Voigt]

OK - I'll clarify

1) a proper (and historically correct) 3-finger grip, with index finger extended; ---- Is this really the historically correct grip or are we just guessing because thats the only way a comfortable grip can be accomplished now that people are generally bigger??
2) a reasonably low bench (again, as would have been used in the 18th/19 centuries) --- when people were shorter and lower benches therefore were better match for their physical size??
3) keeping your wrist straight --- please define straight wrist - this is where the picture would be super helpful...


OK, this thread is getting bizarre. What's up with the disgusting, graphic hand injury photos? (EDIT: not trying to pile on about the photos; David was posting while I was writing).
Pat, I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not really feeling motivated to dig through a bunch of books to find documentation of grips, nor to take photos to satisfy you. In my first response to you, I suggested that you try holding a plane tote as I described. I think my description was clear and straightforward. You've responded with a ton of tangential points, but as far as I can tell you haven't tried this simple experiment. If you had, I feel sure we wouldn't be having this conversation anymore.

Very briefly, to your 3 points above:
(1) I've always heard 3 fingers, but some people use two. I don't think it matters, as long as you're not making a tight fist. If you make a tight fist, you'll draw the heel of the hand closer to the tote. But, you'll be wasting energy and creating tension where none is needed. I have never heard of anyone advocating a tight grip, nor wrapping all fingers around the handle. Have you?
2) This has all been litigated before. Look at any illustration from the 15th-18th centuries of craftsmen working at a bench. The bench is always quite low. But notice I said "reasonably" low; I don't think it matters that much, unless you're a short guy with a 38" high bench (lol).
3) What's hard to understand about straight? It means your wrist is not bent; it's in line with your forearm.

I'm losing track of what this is all about. You disagreed with the notion of primarily using the web. George suggested you try it. I did the same, and added what I thought was a helpful description. If you try it and don't like it, fine, whatever works for you. If you have some specific grip that allows you to use the heel of your hand, you should share that with us.

Steve

[Adam Cruea]

The web of your hand is also engaged in planing, heavily. If you think it's not, take the horn off of a plane, or better yet, leave a nub of a horn, and watch what happens.

From what I remember, it's only slightly less painful than putting your hand in a blender. :D

Just keeping with the graphic turn this thread took.

[george wilson]

This discussion is circular. It is turning into an add on to the deleted other thread where things got pretty nasty. I am not going to let myself get involved in that sort of thing again. If a moderator thinks THIS particular post(#34) is out of line,I hope he tells me so. I am pouring myself out here.

I just got a PM where it was said that "I may have knowledge and experience on my side,but that doesn't make me infallible". Well,I am sorry I don't have something more substantial to offer!!!:):):) Maybe if I had ignorance and lack of experience on my side,I would be better off. The infallible part is true,but we can only try to do our best with what we have.

I feel like we turn into a bunch of kids fighting over our toys. These theoretical conversations,like sharpening threads where everyone has a different opinion,and all get upset,and other such,get nowhere.

If I can't cite a couple of decades of other craftsmen daily happily using these jack planes,what can I do? Fact and actual use aren't good enough? I got accused of being pompous and arrogant because some other guy doesn't want to listen to knowledge and experience. I don't know what else to offer. This work was my life. Not my pastime. I am in a position to offer my teaching. If you do not want my experience,I encourage you to look elsewhere and not get angry. Those who listen and learn get somewhere,like I did.

I learned to listen to a great sculptor in college,even though he was the epitome of arrogance. But,I knew he had the goods,and I wanted to learn from him. He wound up being the head of the art department at Harvard. I was darned lucky to have him for 3 years calling me an idiot and verbally kicking my rear end around. You have no idea!! It was sort of like a Japanese style master-student relationship,where the student really got kicked around until the lessons sunk in. BUT WORTH IT. YES,I had the humility to listen to him. I could have left him at any time. Anyone who doesn't think I have humility doesn't know me,period. I hope you use your reason,and not your emotions guide you. You must to succeed.

What I can only think to offer is: Make yourself a plane and try it. That didn't work either.

I don't have any pictures of mangled hands to offer either. Maybe if I Googled some,but NAH!!!:) I could offer some normal hands,and label the places that in my opinion that are good for pushing planes,but I can't see what that would prove. Honestly,I can't.

I have edited this post as other thoughts and better sentence structure came to mind. I will not,and did not edit my posts at the last minute. If I did,the moderators could see it anyway. Please note the TIME of the editing before making accusations,if it comes to that.

[Adam Cruea]

Ignorance is bliss, George. Seriously. Just look at all the happily ignorant people in the world.

People don't want to hear facts and information anymore. They want to hear what makes them feel good about spending loads of time and money on themselves.

I'm in a similar boat as you, and I've talked about it at length with my personal therapist. People don't want knowledge. People don't want facts. They want to be ignorant of a situation and pretend everything is great, or they want to believe that they're the best at something and no one else can possibly know any better. All you can really do is ignore them and move on, and I realize that's a tall order for someone speaking about something they are passionate about.

[David Weaver]

Well,I am sorry I don't have something more substantial to offer!!!

We wish you did! We want promises of fortune and fame and a good time!!

[John Coloccia]

I also don't understand what the point of the pictures are. Seems very bizarre to me. Anyhow, I have to generally agree that pushing in the "web" of your hand is probably pretty optimal from a strictly mechanical point of view. To push with your palm, your wrist has to be bent at an angle. The only way to push without straining your hand muscles is if the hand is relaxed, and the only way the hand gets relaxed is is everything is straight and force can be transferred without a lot of use of the hand muscles. The only way I see that happening is if you're pushing in the area between your thumb and finger. It's just how the hand happens to be designed. That's why everything we push around has handles to grip, not flat things you push on with your palms. If you disagree with this, the next time you go shopping, try pushing the cart around with your palms. I'll bet money you're in great pain before you even get out of the vegetable section.

[Brian Ashton]

I'd love to see someone try the pushing a plane with the web of your thumb and forefinger method although I can't fathom that as being comfortable or very strong in terms of hand position. I think though, its worth a shot. I was going to repost George's picture but not really sure which on he is referring to

I've found it's quite comfortable, though it's quite hard to maintain with veritas planes and the planes I've built. But after a long session of planing, such as the shutters I did a few months back, I found myself doing something like what George was describing to give me some relief. The hand is actually in a more relaxed position i.e. the fingers and thumb aren't gripping the handle with a death grip therefore all those tendons running through the wrist are relaxed and I find the line of my hand in relation to my wrist and possibly my forearm feels better. The caveat is that it is hard on the skin between the thumb and forefinger. But over time the skin and muscle would adapt.

[Tom Vanzant]

I have a wide hand with short fingers, and a ring-finger that "locks" if I make a fist or tight grip, so I push my Baileys and Bedrocks with my hand more or less open, like a crochet, and guide and keep the plane level with my left hand.
Winton, in your photo with the invisible plane, it looks like you're delivering a karate chop to the bench. That's got to hurt!

[Brian Ashton]

George, it is senseless to try that method if you and others who think pushing with the web of your hand is best because it isn't. No one would ever intentionally push on anything with force using the web of their hand - the natural position would be to use the heel of your hand to generate force. What sense in using the web. In fact, I challenge you to actually use that method. In fact find an illustration anywhere of that as the preferred method of generating force for this type of motion. If the workmen of old were using that method it is purely from a lack of understanding. Perhaps a mis-interpretation of what they were doing based on a faulty observation. That type of thing is evidenced time and again. Someone finds an artifact, thinks they have a story on how it worked, and then are proven wrong.

If I'm not mistaken the heel of the hand is precisely where you don't want to be pushing, and especially not hammering, anything for long periods of time. It's where all the nerves and tendons are squeezed through the bottle neck of the wrist.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I just deleted a bunch of posts in this thread which were similar to those which got another thread deleted last night. I am leaving this thread open (for now). The next person who initiates any personal attacks (of which I am the sole judge) whether or not anyone's specific name is named will have their posting priveleges revoked for one week. There is no appeal from this and I can do it with in seconds. As they say on the auction show......


FAIR WARNING

[John Coloccia]

The caveat is that it is hard on the skin between the thumb and forefinger. But over time the skin and muscle would adapt.

When I'm working for long hours, I wear a set of my bicycle gloves. Seems to help a lot.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm amazed that this topic has been such a point of contention for the forum.

anywho, I use my lie Nielsen planes pretty regularly, and after reading this I did notice that it does allow for a grip which the pressure point is the first finger/thumb web.

I have learned my carpel tunnel lesson recently, and have stopped using the base of my palm to put pressure on anything. My thumb was all 'pins and needles' for about a week.

[Pat Barry]

I also don't understand what the point of the pictures are. Seems very bizarre to me. Anyhow, I have to generally agree that pushing in the "web" of your hand is probably pretty optimal from a strictly mechanical point of view. To push with your palm, your wrist has to be bent at an angle. The only way to push without straining your hand muscles is if the hand is relaxed, and the only way the hand gets relaxed is is everything is straight and force can be transferred without a lot of use of the hand muscles. The only way I see that happening is if you're pushing in the area between your thumb and finger. It's just how the hand happens to be designed. That's why everything we push around has handles to grip, not flat things you push on with your palms. If you disagree with this, the next time you go shopping, try pushing the cart around with your palms. I'll bet money you're in great pain before you even get out of the vegetable section.

OK -OK - OK - I apologize for the pictures. I thought they would lighten up the tone of the discussion. Sorry to have put them out there as I can see everyone jumped to conclusions that were not intende (I even noted they had nothing to do with planing but that doesn't seem to have mattered to anyone.

With regard to handles and gripping, the reason for the grip is to provide control left to right and backward, not to exert energy to propel the object in question forward.

[george wilson]

What is aggravating is that it is exactly these type of "theoretical"(but this is not theory to my experience),topic,most often sharpening,that everyone has their favorite pet theory about. The discussion soon becomes circular. Then,the insults start.

Actually,I just remembered that I use the web of my thumb,with a few fingers wrapped around the grip when shooting my 50# bow. Since I have a worn out right thumb joint,I haven't shot lately. Were I to grip the bow's handle in a monkey fist,the instant I let go of the string,the bow would twist and throw the arrow off. So,I grip it quite lightly,so it doesn't jump out of my hand when I let go of the string. As mentioned,this thumb joint is from many years of finger picking the guitar.

Pat,the grip is not to propel the plane forward? Then what propels the plane forward? Or am I not reading this right?

[Pat Barry]

What is aggravating is that it is exactly these type of "theoretical"(but this is not theory to my experience),topic,most often sharpening,that everyone has their favorite pet theory about. The discussion soon becomes circular. Then,the insults start.

Actually,I just remembered that I use the web of my thumb,with a few fingers wrapped around the grip when shooting my 50# bow. Since I have a worn out right thumb joint,I haven't shot lately. Were I to grip the bow's handle in a monkey fist,the instant I let go of the string,the bow would twist and throw the arrow off. So,I grip it quite lightly,so it doesn't jump out of my hand when I let go of the string. As mentioned,this thumb joint is from many years of finger picking the guitar.

Pat,the grip is not to propel the plane forward? Then what propels the plane forward? Or am I not reading this right?

Right - the 'grip' is not for propeling the plane forward. The grip just positions the hand on the tool. The push comes from the palm or web or base of thumb or heel of hand depending on who is doing the work it seems. That is - you can push without actually gripping (the rear tote). I hope no one disagrees on that point.

I see from the comments above that my statements are looked upon as ludicrous, ignorant or blasphemy, therefore I will cease an desist. There is nothing here to get worked up about. Sorry to have interjected my thoughts into the blissful neander world.

[george wilson]

I was not thinking of you when it came to sharpening posts,which were my primary thoughts. Those,and that last thread of dread. Sorry you took it that way.

Due to back pain,I only got a few hours sleep last night,and drugged myself with xanax too much to get even that. So,I'm not thinking too well today. Lots of typing corrections.

[David Weaver]

I was not thinking of you when it came to sharpening posts,which were my primary thoughts. Sorry you took it that way.

Those must be me! Chief stone collector and micron analyzer!!

I have been guilty of driving some of those discussions forward, but I'm tired of them, too (not tired of the stones, though, just the discussions about what's needed for what). AS long as new people are coming into the hobby, they'll never stop, though.

[george wilson]

Not you,David. I have no idea how some of these posts,like the sharpening threads,get so bad. As long as I can get my tools razor sharp, I'm just doing what works for me.

What do you think those big blocks of stone in the Diderot were made of? Sandstone? They are huge,looking to be about 18" square and a foot thick. There must be at least 1 in a French museum somewhere.

[David Weaver]

I think Warren has described shops as having a large sandstone, probably for coarse work. I can only go on what my experience is with hindostan hones - I don't love sandstone for a whole lot, probably because I've never used it for grinding.

It's probably different if there's a moving wheel of it, but silica stones don't seem to me to work as well as novaculite stones unless they're very fine (japanese stones) or soft, and i don't like soft.

I wonder if those stones had to be big just so you could get enough range of motion to get some work done with them. I've never seen anything here but round sandstone wheels, and those are usually in peoples' yards.

[george wilson]

Those miserable sandstone wheels we had in the museum were nearly impossible to get anywhere with. They must have had a better variety back then. Ours were so fine they just wouldn't cut worth 2 cents.

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks for the date on the plane George. I have the intent to make a Jack, let's see if I get around to it..........Also (and I'm not going to argue :)) why is the handle offset important? It seems initially strange not to have the handle right behind the blade.

David I think the escapement might need work or I need to learn how to set the cap iron better.

On grind wheels I wish we still had ours. You can barely make it out in the photo below. It had to go to make space for more equipment. I think it could have become a display at my Grandparents home (converted water mill). I have tools belonging to my Grandfather & Great Grandfather that appear they were ground on it.

284368

[David Weaver]

David I think the escapement might need work or I need to learn how to set the cap iron better.



Yeah, it should allow set of the cap iron tight - as tight as you want, if it doesn't, it needs to be worked or at least checked to see if there is anything rough in it impeding the shavings. Most of my planes tolerate it (though later US planes seem to solve the problem by just opening the mouth wide and getting everything out of the way), but the poorly made planes I have sometimes don't. I'd be surprised if it was a design problem if that's an english plan.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Graham When George is talking about sandstone grinding wheels he is only speaking of the ones he had accessible. Sandstone from different areas has an incredibly wide range of textures or grit sizes as you will. There is also a lot of variation in how hard the grits are bound together which influences the rate of wear. Maybe George can answer again, but I remember a lot of old text talking about "Turkey stones" which were natural stones widely used during the 18th and 19th centuries that came from Turkey, then part of the Ottoman Empire.

[george wilson]

Graham,you must have missed the deleted thread. The offset handle found on early planes is designed to prevent carpal tunnel from developing in workers who planed all day every day. The handle was flush with the side of the plane in the 16th. C.. Gradually,it moved to the center of the plane when,(I think) old lessons were forgotten. The very short grip on the jack plane we reproduced for woodworkers to use in the museum was 2 3/4" tall,and so close to the blade,the blade cleared the handle by 1/8".

It was made that way so you pushed the plane with the web of the thumb. Only 2 fingers would fit around the grip. The other 2 fingers went down the side of the plane. These planes were used for almost 20 years(still are in use) while I was still toolmaker. I retired in 2009. Many woodworkers in the Historic Area use them happily. Yet,there has been great disagreement here that the use of the web of the thumb would be painful. Time and use by many in the museum has not borne that out,however.

[David Weaver]

Graham When George is talking about sandstone grinding wheels he is only speaking of the ones he had accessible. Sandstone from different areas has an incredibly wide range of textures or grit sizes as you will. There is also a lot of variation in how hard the grits are bound together which influences the rate of wear. Maybe George can answer again, but I remember a lot of old text talking about "Turkey stones" which were natural stones widely used during the 18th and 19th centuries that came from Turkey, then part of the Ottoman Empire.

George might respond to the stone question, Dave, and it's likely I won't tell you anything you don't already know. The two types of turkey stones are the misnamed arkansas softs/washitas, and the friable or easily cracked stones that are actually ottoman empire type. Both are novaculite but look worlds different. The turkish oilstone that's from crete (there's another peddled razor stone referred to as a cretan, so they might also be two separate novaculites) or wherever they come from is praised in old texts for coming apart and exposing fresh surface, but I've read before that in reworking an iron, some of them can need to be flattened several times. Their claim to fame was that they tolerated hard steels better than other stones (because of their friability).

Nobody needs to say anything about washitas.

I've only ever seen the "real" turkish oilstones from a few shaving suppliers. I can't imagine what value they have these days to a buyer of stones other than to just try them. I'm sure they were flushed off the face of the UK by the washita and the hard arkansas like everything else they had there...or consumed (and depleted), since they're consumables.

George supplied frictionites and super punjabs (a branded version of the frictionites almost identical to a frictionite #00 except for the coarse abrasive is a tiny bit different) to the woodworkers at the museum :) I wonder how they got away with using them?

Side note, I had a conversation with dan's whetstone folks last week, and they were surprised to hear there was novaculite outside of the united states. To my knowledge, turkish oilstones, llyn idwalls (a hard green stone) and charnley forest were all fairly widely available novaculites. You can still get idwalls sometimes and charnleys pretty readily. I think I've probably only seen a real turkish oilstone (black and looking like it's made of shards of novaculite) once or twice on the open market, and I've seen cretans offered a couple of times (but they don't have the same look as the description of the true turkey stone from turkey).

[george wilson]

Yes,Dave. The purchasing secretary managed to find a source in Ohio who would produce sandstone wheels for the museum. They were so fine that I spent most of a day,getting kids in the audiences to turn the wheel,and hardly made any progress on sharpening the plane iron.

I have mentioned that no doubt many types of sandstone were available in early times. Indeed,I have a never used wheel cut in the civil war era,which is much coarser than those wheels we had in the museum. But,the sandstone wheel is no longer current technology,and sources are nearly impossible to find,just like electronic tubes for guitar amplifiers are today limited to Russian manufacture. Everyone used to make tubes,but it's all solid state now. Technology moves on.

David,back in the 60's and 70's,Woodcraft Supply sold odd shaped Belgian natural stones(coticles). The cabinet maker when I arrived in 1970 was using one. He'd SPIT on it and sharpen his chisel on it!!(Be careful what you buy used!!!) But,they were no longer sold. We used what we could get is the simple answer. And,I must say,authenticity in the museum was a far cry back in the 70's from what it is today. i supplied tools that were formerly a mish mash of modern style wooden planes,and atrociously re handled back saws(I mean REALLY UGLY,and no research at all),that craftsmen were putting together on their own.

If you notice,in the harpsichord film we made in 1973(released in '74),I used 19th. C. planes and modern chisels. We just didn't have better back then. When they decided to make a movie,it was suddenly(as always) rush,rush,and no time to make better tools,or get the blacksmith to forge chisels,etc.. Everything they decided to do was somehow a last minute decision,and rush like crazy to get ready. Presentation gifts were ordered BEYOND the last minute. That resulted in craftsmen working nights and weekends(especially ME)to get gifts ready,when these visiting dignitaries were planned a year in advance. I had 3 days to make gifts on 2 separate occasions.

They were already using modern stones before I got the frictionites.

I remember a story from old Mr.Simms: A hardware dealer in London could not get anyone to buy artificial sharpening stones he had gotten. One day,in disgust,he threw one against the wall when a customer refused it.(wooden wall?) When the customer saw that it didn't break,he bought it. After that,he threw the stones against the wall when showing them,and customers would buy them!!

[David Weaver]

Your purchasing secretaries just need to head out to antique malls and flea markets. At an engine show that's attached to a craft show my parents attend each year, there's a guy with a very coarse sandstone wheel (driven by an old engine) who sharpens pocket knives for a dollar. It leaves a horrible edge - looks like an edge straight off of a grinder, but he stays busy all day because the people there probably already have knives that barely cut anything.

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks Dave,

Agreed, I think many UK stones came from Derbyshire (based on some retained knowledge in my mind that may not be correct :)) The Turkeys were I think more of a fine honing stone? Many of the last to come from Palestine?

George,

It just got difficult to keep up! Thanks for the explanation. I'm sure you have more than enough to do without this request but would you be prepared to post a few photos of the planes in use? If I do get around to making one it would be nice to use it as intended. I find I'm a visual person, pictures, thousand words etc....

[george wilson]

Sorry,I do not have one of those planes on hand. I am left handed,and made all of them right handed for everyone else. So,I don't have one for myself. Here's a few pictures,at least. You should be able to scale a handle from the picture with the steel rule included. Don't forget: The bottom edge of the handle is set into the plane body 3/4" deep. That leaves 2 3/4" up to where the web of the thumb would fit on the back side of the handle.

[bridger berdel]

and to think I thought I could just start a new thread and avoid the flame wars....

so.
the plane I'm thinking of modifying is a beast. long, wide and tall. and heavy. part of what I want to do is make it lighter. as is, I can't run it for more than a few minutes. so I figure I'll take away some of the excess height, both fore and aft of the mouth, but especially aft- thus the razee. there will still be plenty. I'll need a 2-1/2" chipbreaker for an old tapered laminated iron- anyone here have one of those they'd be willing to let go of?

the plane is 31" long, with the mouth pretty close to the halfway point. this to me suggests that the tote should be as far forward as I can get with room for a comfortable grip. it'll still be heavy, so I wonder about having enough handle to grab to lift for the return stroke. otherwise there is definitely enough material there now to carve a push only grip.

[george wilson]

I doubt there will be any more flame wars for now.

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks George, very much appreciated!

[Steve Voigt]

and to think I thought I could just start a new thread and avoid the flame wars....

so.
the plane I'm thinking of modifying is a beast. long, wide and tall. and heavy. part of what I want to do is make it lighter. as is, I can't run it for more than a few minutes. so I figure I'll take away some of the excess height, both fore and aft of the mouth, but especially aft- thus the razee. there will still be plenty. I'll need a 2-1/2" chipbreaker for an old tapered laminated iron- anyone here have one of those they'd be willing to let go of?

the plane is 31" long, with the mouth pretty close to the halfway point. this to me suggests that the tote should be as far forward as I can get with room for a comfortable grip. it'll still be heavy, so I wonder about having enough handle to grab to lift for the return stroke. otherwise there is definitely enough material there now to carve a push only grip.

Hi Bridger,
If I were doing this, I think I'd cut a few inches of the front of the plane. On British/American planes, the distance from cutting edge to the nose is about 1/3 of the total length, so shortening the plane might improve the balance.
Maybe it's just me, but I think that super long planes sound great in the abstract but are practically useless in reality. I can flatten anything I'm likely to build with a 24" plane, so that's the longest plane I'll use anymore.
So, my advice is to cut the plane down, then see if it's still too heavy; if it is, then consider doing the razee thing.

[george wilson]

For what it's worth,as general information,razee planes were originally made for boys to use in mechanical training.

I've mentioned it before,but a razee was a sailing ship which had had the top deck cut off,possibly because it was too top heavy to sail well. Engineering could sometimes be a bit iffy a long time ago. Still is,in some cases.

[bridger berdel]

For what it's worth,as general information,razee planes were originally made for boys to use in mechanical training.

I've mentioned it before,but a razee was a sailing ship which had had the top deck cut off,possibly because it was too top heavy to sail well. Engineering could sometimes be a bit iffy a long time ago. Still is,in some cases.

so its appropriate... cutting off the top to reduce weight a bit.

[Metod Alif]

George,

" So,you should not dismiss what they did just because you THINK it might not be comfortable. You may find,as I have many times,that what you imagine may not be how it really works. So,try it first."

Are you serious?:)

Best wishes,
Metod

[george wilson]

I HAVE used razee planes,Metod. I don't know where you are coming from. You have no idea what I have tried. I'm a very curious person,and have tried a lot of things.

Razee planes are not rare. They were made so BOYS could handle them. Actually,just about all modern planes are like razees:They have bodies that are low.Lower than razee planes.

[Metod Alif]

George,
I was just kidding. Didn't you notice the smiley?
Best wishes,
Metod

[bridger berdel]

Razee planes are not rare. They were made so BOYS could handle them. Actually,just about all modern planes are like razees:They have bodies that are low.Lower than razee planes.

metal bodies are thinner than woodies. this places the handle lower than if a full size handle were attached to a woodie, like on a transitional or (relatively) modern woodies. but would the top of the hand be about in the same place height/wise with an 18th c. woodie as with a modern plane? and does mean bupkis?

[Pat Barry]

Found something I thought was interesting. Not trying to kick the proverbial hornets nest mind you.

284511

[David Weaver]

They forgot, "or it may be that we're a retailer, and we don't appear to have the right answer or know how to use the older planes".

My money is on the folks who supplied the professionals, not the folks who cater to amateurs now.

[george wilson]

The heck you aren't!!!:):):)

[bridger berdel]

well, I already have a 5, 6, 7 and 8. so this plane isn't really about need. now, when I built it, I didn't have the 7 or 8, but I did have a big honkin' old laminated iron and stock of mesquite sufficient to build this monster. so I did. even used it a few times, but it wasn't fun. I think I'll keep the length and reduce the height. at it's lowest point it's about 4" tall. what woodies I have seem to run in the 1-1/2" to 2" tall range, and they are made of lighter woods. add to that the 60 degree bedding angle and it's a beast to use.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bridgerb/13130324583/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bridgerb/13130198995/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bridgerb/13130582214/




Hi Bridger,
If I were doing this, I think I'd cut a few inches of the front of the plane. On British/American planes, the distance from cutting edge to the nose is about 1/3 of the total length, so shortening the plane might improve the balance.
Maybe it's just me, but I think that super long planes sound great in the abstract but are practically useless in reality. I can flatten anything I'm likely to build with a 24" plane, so that's the longest plane I'll use anymore.
So, my advice is to cut the plane down, then see if it's still too heavy; if it is, then consider doing the razee thing.