Leaving dimensioned wood overnight

[Patrick Bernardo]

I was going to post this in the General section, but realize this may be more of ‘our thing’. I imagine that power tool woodworkers might be able to move quickly enough from dimensioning to glue-up. In my situation, however, I often only have a little shop time – maybe an hour or two. So I can use that time to get a board dimensioned, but not necessarily enough to get to a glue up. When I was reading Derek Cohen’s page – I can’t remember which one in particular – he mentioned that he clamps his boards in cauls if he leaves them out. I’m wondering what you guys do.


Assume that during the week, Monday – Friday, I might be able to dimension a few boards, but I won’t be able to do glue up until the weekend. So the boards will have to sit for maybe three or four days in a couple of cases. How would you leave them? Would you clamp them, just sticker them, or something else?

FWIW, my shop is in my basement, so it's measurably more humid than my living space, but I haven't seen extremes so far down there.

[David Wadstrup]

Hi Patrick,

I find myself in this situation all the time -- not being able to glue up, assemble, or even cut the joinery(dovetails) on the same day that I've dimensioned the boards. I've never tried physically restraining them, so can't speak to the effectiveness of that approach. What I usually do is wrap them tightly and completely in cellophane, and keep them in the same room they have been living in until this point. The goal is to limit moisture transfer, thereby limiting movement of the wood. I keep a large roll of packing cellophane handy for this purpose. It usually works.

[Tony Shea]

We all find ourself in this situation. I personally have bounced back and forth from method to method and always end up just leaving the boards out stickered or placed on edge. Honestly the only reason this ends up being my method is out of sheer laziness. I think the cellophane method is sound and would probably recommend this if you want to take the time to do so. And clamping the boards together wouldn't hurt things as well. I personally wouldn't think just clamping a stack of boards together without cellophane would do much good. They still can take on and release moisture and the effects of this will just show up as soon as you pull the clamps. Maybe in practise this does help but in theory seems like it wouldn't.

[Sean Hughto]

I do nothing. I try to use wood that is dry and acclimated to my shop. I try to pick wood that is stable in its cut and grain. Wood will always move, but the movement shouldn't interfere with your build if you have good dry wood and have prepared it well.

[Daniel Rode]

It's common for wood to twist cup or bow as it's dimensioned. Stresses within the wood change and it moves accordingly. Many times those changes are apparent as it's cuts and planed but sometimes it may take some time for the piece to find it's balance. There are a few things I try to do to deal with this.

Starting with dry wood that's acclimated to the environment is a good start. However, if you're working on a table that's going to Phoenix and you're building it in July in Georgia, it may be flat in the shop but have issues when it gets to it's home.

If possible, I remove equal amounts from each side of the board. This more often helps when reducing the thickness. Sometimes I need to remove the majority from one side. In this case, I may remove half the material and then let is sit for a day or even week and then come back, re-flatten if necessary and remove the rest. Some times the board moves so much that it can't be use as intended. That's just a fact of life when working wood.

If I suspect a board is going to bow as I rip it to width, I'll sometimes use a similar strategy and make several cuts and re-joint as I go.

I really don't try to to anything to restrain the wood from moving or to push it back to flat. I've never had any success unbending wood.

[George Bokros]

I sticker mine and leave it sit. I try to put on edge but sometimes space is not available to do so.

Speaking of this I just read an article in an old issue of Wood magazine and it said with red oak you should do any glue up, edge to edge, withing 30 minutes of dimensioning. I sure cannot do that and have never done that. The article did not say why, anyone have any idea why they recommend this?

George

[Derek Cohen]

It works for me, Patrick. Note that the parts I clamp are not freshly sawn (freshly saw pieces are stickered and left to acclimatize), but panels that were recently glued, planed and with joinery (here, dovetailed). Left over night, they are again effectively also stickered, with plenty of air flowing around them. The clamps are insurance against movement - I am not sure if it is really making any difference, but the results are good and I sleep better at night.

Edit to add photo. Note, although this looks higgledy-piggledy, that there are two panels stickered and clamped together in pairs and they have air around them.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/DesigningandBuildinganEntertainmentCentre_html_m4a 4f03e4.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

What sort of glue up are you referring to? Just panels? Or other things? I cant imagine this being an issue for anything but panels. And even then, if the board twists or bows so much in the few days until you get back to it that it wont work in your panel anymore, frankly, I'd toss it aside for another use anyway and count myself lucky for finding out before making into an important part of a project.

[Winton Applegate]

Clamp to cauls etc. . .Maybe in practice this does help but in theory seems like it wouldn't.
Tha's what I was thinking too. Derek is highly experienced though. It would never have occurred to me.

One thing I have tried, with some bowed cut offs that were going to be thick veneer, is I placed it so its own weight would un bow it after cutting it off a thick plank.
That didn't work.
Then I put others on top of it with stickers between.
That didn't unbow them / it
Here is one coming off the saw

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Resaw.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Resaw.jpg.html)


In the back ground by the garage door you can see it / them "hanging out". I left them like that for ever and checked them every few months.
Did not change. Stayed bowed. Granted that is super strong wood, bubinga, but is roughly 6mm thick and eight feet long.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0081_zps1b0d98f8.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0081_zps1b0d98f8.jpg.html)

Ha, ha, my wood sits around so long that it is about all changed out by the time I get around to it.

I suppose I am lucky living in a dry environment, high plains desert, you know , Clint Eastwood western movie stuff (not Italy) ha, ha.
Often I give my location in forums as Wild, Wild West USA.

Theoretically I would recommend buying wood that isn't messed up to start with. If it is twisted and bowed etc. chances are it is just going to keep dancing after you make it thinner etc. (dimensioned).

The recommended strategy of taking decent wood, (that is where a great wood supplier is important) milling it close to the final dimensions and leaving it for a week or two then milling it to final is sound.

The pretty, gnarly, highly figured stuff that keeps trying to look like a propeller well . . . I think what it is really telling you is it wants to be veneer as soon as possible.

If I had a piece of wood that I dimensioned and it went all woppy jawed I think I would just go with a more stable plank.

What is going to happen if you make some thing all out of propeller wood ? How are they all going to have just the right reactions to counter all the others ? I don't see it.

But I don't live where it is humid and wet.

I am a fan of keeping the wood components in the same environment that it will finally be used. Maybe work the wood in the basement but store the waiting components under the bed in the house. Stickered is a thing I do with my dimensioned components. Probably some hunks of carpeting between them would be as good. The main thing is you don't, and this is extreme but instructive, don't put one side down on a source of damp (basement floor or lawn etc.) and not have the other side receive the same treatment.

I'm babbling now so I better stop.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm with Winton in that I let the wood hang out for a weeks in its environment before working on it.

[Winton Applegate]

Derek,

You are by the ocean are you not ?

[Sean Hughto]

You didn't ask, Winton, but I live on a planet with a moon.

[Winton Applegate]

Sean,
Moon glow . . . a whole other, rat hole, . . . er . . . I mean . . .
Topic for discussion.
How long until we get members posting about their experiences with zero grav. dimensioning and the "Proper" mix of environmental gasses for ultimate cutting edge durability.
Don't you just love woodworking ?
There is so much to explore !

PS: one or more moons is good but several suns screws me up.
I never know when to break for lunch.

[Sean Hughto]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jEmK9qFB1Y0

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Winton

I live a hop-step-and jump from a river and within 5 minutes drive from the beach. However Perth is very dry during summer, which runs mid November through April. Very low humidity. We likely live in a similar climate. North of Perth is scrub bush and desert. South are forests, vineyards, farm lands. We have the longest stretches of beach anywhere (one is called the "Thousand Mile Beach"), and nearly all of Australia is camped along the coast.

Note (again) that the boards in the picture I posted are dovetailed panels and ready for glueing together. Dovetails tend to pull panels square, so it is not a big issue if a sight curve develops in softwood or even medium hard woods. The wood in the picture is salvaged Jarrah, which is very dry (petrified!) and has become extra hard. If this develops a curve then pushing the dovetailed ends together is difficult, and it does not take much curve to get to this point. When I have had to do this it has required cauls and clamps to straighten it enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winton Applegate]

Derek,

Dovetails in Jarrah and
the chance of a bit of a curve in the sides.
THAT IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD of wood working from doing the same in walnut or some softer wood.
Yah a little change would make for a wrestling match.
I don't know how you do it !

[Winton Applegate]

glue up, edge to edge, within 30 minutes of dimensioning.

That may or may not have been red oak specific.
I am guessing at the author's intent but I think they may have just been speaking generally about the oxidation that takes place on the glue surface and that a freshly planed, or sanded, surface will take glue better.

Specifically there is less "surface tension" right after plaining, (I think even an hour or two would be fine as well). Wood that has gone days between planing and having glue applied causes the glue to bead up like a waxed surface rather than spread out and "wet" the surfaces.

[Sam Stephens]

sticker it and keep it away from windows. clamping it sounds it a bit absurd to me. if it's a wide panel, i'll usually flip it daily for a week or so depending on the season and RH fluctuations. Note that my shop is in my non-A/Cd garage.

[Brian Ashton]

What sort of glue up are you referring to? Just panels? Or other things? I cant imagine this being an issue for anything but panels. And even then, if the board twists or bows so much in the few days until you get back to it that it wont work in your panel anymore, frankly, I'd toss it aside for another use anyway and count myself lucky for finding out before making into an important part of a project.

You would have to experience australian woods to understand the need to let the wood do it's thing after machining and then remachine... when they decide to move it's not easy to get them to go back without problems. I've glued up bone dry wood here a number of times only to have it pull itself apart even months down the road. Even with epoxy and screws I've had planes pull themselves apart months later...

I made a chippendale style pie crust table couple years back which was made out of some sort of gum wood. The 24" top weeks after I planed it flat suddenly decided to warp and there was no getting to to go back so I had plane another heavy 1/8 off each side. The pedestal is 3" thick and made up of 3 pieces, months later it broke it's glue joints...

The stuff needs to be treated very differently than woods found in North America or Europe. The only thing they're good for is fence posts, slab furniture and turning.

[Winton Applegate]

!
(The message I have entered is too short. So I will lengthen my message by repeating it.)

!

[Patrick Bernardo]

Sean, I guess I was thinking about panels, because that's what I have on deck. But I was really asking more generally, simply because I noticed the cauls on Derek's page, and when I searched here I didn't find much recent information about how people handle this. I assumed that it would be a common problem for hand tool guys, since it might take some time to dimension boards, so I wanted to see what people generally did.

[Jim Neeley]

One mitigating approach when dimensioning a number of boards to rough-dimension them (slightly oversides) and then final dimension as close as possible to assembly.

It doesn't prevent the problem but makes for a shorter time for changes.

Just my $0.02.. YMMV.

Jim

[Derek Cohen]

You would have to experience australian woods to understand the need to let the wood do it's thing after machining and then remachine... when they decide to move it's not easy to get them to go back without problems. I've glued up bone dry wood here a number of times only to have it pull itself apart even months down the road. Even with epoxy and screws I've had planes pull themselves apart months later...

I made a chippendale style pie crust table couple years back which was made out of some sort of gum wood. The 24" top weeks after I planed it flat suddenly decided to warp and there was no getting to to go back so I had plane another heavy 1/8 off each side. The pedestal is 3" thick and made up of 3 pieces, months later it broke it's glue joints...

The stuff needs to be treated very differently than woods found in North America or Europe. The only thing they're good for is fence posts, slab furniture and turning.

Thanks for writing this Brian. It helps to have another Aussie, especially a Canadian Aussie who wants to become a Canadian Pom, comment on our timber. Sometimes I read what I have written and wonder if I am making it up! :)

Anyone like to send a boatload of Walnut and Cherry to us poor timber-starving Australians?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frank Bizley]

Thanks for writing this Brian. It helps to have another Aussie, especially a Canadian Aussie who wants to become a Canadian Pom, comment on our timber. Sometimes I read what I have written and wonder if I am making it up! :)

Anyone like to send a boatload of Walnut and Cherry to us poor timber-starving Australians?

Regards from Perth

Derek



Derek I have a lot of cherry rock maple and walnut if you want some, last time I checked so does most of the timbers suppliers in aus.

Australian's are in no way starving for these types of timbers you should buy some and get the pleasure of using them.

Most Australian hardwood species are crap for furniture making. It's a tragedy to see people put in a lot of hours into a project only to have it move and split and warp on them so they blame the timber. But don't blame themselves for using the wrong timber in the first place. Jarrah here in Australia is predominately used for outdoor furniture.



All the Best,


Frank

[Frank Bizley]

Oh Frank, Frank, Frank ......

http://www.jarrimber.com.au/index.html

http://www.portjarrah.com.au/

http://www.jarrahfurnitureperth.com.au/

Frank, I could give you dozens more similar websites.

Of course, in Queensland you would not see much Jarrah, being as it comes from a corner of Western Australia.

Ladies and Gentlemen, let me introduce Frank, my biggest "fan". He follows me around the forums looking for a way to say something nice.

Welcome Frank.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Thanks for the strange welcome Derek, Us Queenslanders do know where jarrah comes from its just not that popular over here.
I did say predominately used because one time in history it was. Of course jarrah is used to make furniture in Western Australia because it has great marketability because it is native to your state. But it still does not take away from the fact that is is a very hard wood to work and machine. Many years ago I made a 3 metre wall to wall shelving unit in my mothers office in jarrah using a combination of solid and veneer,one of the main reasons for using jarrah was that I picked some select KD cheap from an outdoor furniture maker.It's just one of those timbers that I couldn't enjoy or feel rewarded in using.

Australians are spoilt for choice in timbers they can use local or imported, beautiful red cedars,rosewoods ,maples, silver ash,stunning blackwoods,myrtles,qld walnut. However we are definitely not starving for quality American cherrys,oaks,walnuts and maples. Not to mention the countless imported world wide species to choose from.

One critical factor in the making of a project or piece is timber selection, pick the wrong one and it can fight you all the way,if you have done this as I and many have you soon learn not to do it again. This also can have a great reflection in the quality,final appearance,your time and enjoyment in the journey.Allowing yourself to work with many different timbers,veneers,which can take half a lifetime,gains you these valuable insights. My god the pleasures of Honduras Mahogany.







Frank.

[Derek Cohen]

Frank

I deleted my post because it was sarcastic and that was rude. I am simply going to put you on ignore.

Derek

[Adam Cruea]

To answer op. . .

I usually just set mine on edge, preferably off my bench on two small supports so the area that can get air is maximized.

Don't know if it does any good or not, though.

[Warren Mickley]

I do not do any truing of the timber except jointing the few edges until after gluing up a panel. I you do rough plane the faces before gluing make sure to leave plenty of extra thickness so you can try the face side once the panel is complete.

I have never used clamps or cauls to restrain movement. Occasionally after a big change in humidity a board that is left face down on the bench is cupped either up or down. These boards usually flatten out when the other side is exposed to the new humidity. If I am worried about some boards, I place them on edge or where both sides can get air as Adam suggests

Welcome to the Forum, Frank.

[Frank Bizley]

I do not do any truing of the timber except jointing the few edges until after gluing up a panel. I you do rough plane the faces before gluing make sure to leave plenty of extra thickness so you can try the face side once the panel is complete.

I have never used clamps or cauls to restrain movement. Occasionally after a big change in humidity a board that is left face down on the bench is cupped either up or down. These boards usually flatten out when the other side is exposed to the new humidity. If I am worried about some boards, I place them on edge or where both sides can get air as Adam suggests

Welcome to the Forum, Frank.

Thanks for the welcome Warren,

One thing I got into the habit of doing in the very hot humid months over here when preparing stock , stock that you will prepare and come back to it a day or week later, is to wrap it in cling film"we call it glad wrap" this seems to stop the boards taking on or losing moisture. When the air humity is upto 90% treating stock in this way keeps things nice and stable.




Frank.

[Prashun Patel]

Patrick-
You've got some heavy hitter responses here, so I'll chime in with humility:

This pertains only to panel glue ups...

I have the same struggle with time that you do.

I find that bows and minor cupping are relatively easy to eliminate during the glue up. That is to say, it's easy to get a FLUSH glue up using cauls. Wide boards in a long glue up will do what they want regardless of when or how you glue them up, so I just plan on post glue-up flattening and truing anyway. I used to dread this. However, I now prefer it. Its much more fun truing a whole panel with winding sticks and my eye, then trying to get each board flat to a reference so they'll glue up true.

I also find that my hand flattened boards move less than my power planed ones simply because it takes longer and happens in stages; the wood moves AS I flatten.

[Daniel Rode]

I do the same thing. The idea is that both sides will add or lose moisture at the same rate and not move. I don't know if it really makes any difference either but it doesn't seem to hurt so I keep at it :)


To answer op. . .

I usually just set mine on edge, preferably off my bench on two small supports so the area that can get air is maximized.

Don't know if it does any good or not, though.