Software question

[Roderick Gentry]

Right at the moment I am working up to a CNC router. I will probably end up with some software like Mach3, and Vectric programs of greater or lessor complexity. Most of my work is stuff like cutting panels out for boats, and making parts for acoustic guitars like profile cuts in soundboards with 2.5 d type work for rosettes. I have done a lot of 2d and some specilized 3d cad.

My question is about terms of use. Over time, once I get the router off the ground, I have one mill project in mind. 3d Printer for the kids. Maybe a peck drilling jig, etc... I was wondering, once I splash out for this stuff, is it bound to only one computer, or one machine. This software is super expensive for the home guy, and I want to be sure if I invest that I own it and can use it as I feel inclined, without any restrictions. I am not commercial.

Any thoughts.

[Bruce Page]

I don't think you can legally load Vectric SW on more than two machines at a time. I have Aspire installed on my office PC and CNC PC.
Send them an email at sales@vectric.com They have always been very responsive to my questions.

[Roderick Gentry]

That would probably be OK. I have my stuff on fairly old PCs, so for instance, when I purchased a retail copy of MS Office, it had three licenses associated with it, but once one verified the license on a given computer, that was it. That year I went through several computers. It gets expensive after a while. Part of the reason I am running old XP machines is to keep some adequate old software with no restrictions on it running as long as I can. :)

I know I could call Vectic, but while they seem a favoured provider, if there are better providers or options for this kind of issue it is not going to be Vectric that comes out with advice to look elsewhere.

[William Adams]

For 3D printing, especially for home use, one can find some fairly serviceable free / open-source CAD programs:

http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/CAD#3D

CAM for 3D printers is significantly easier than for milling / routing since ``all'' one has to do is slice it into layers --- there are a number of open-source apps for doing this, similarly there are a number of free communication/control and G-code interpreters.

[John Coloccia]

IMHO, I would not use Mach3. Mach3 has pathologies running in a non-realtime system. At the higher stepping rates that CNC router run at, you will likely run into the dreaded stepper stalling problem. A fellow builder, Andy Birko (he's a member here) runs into this problem frequently enough that he's finally dumped it and is switching to KFlop/KStep, like me. This is a well known problem. I'm not sure the trajectory planner is all that good either. No one raves about it, and enough people seem to complain about it.

[Lee DeRaud]

My question is about terms of use. Over time, once I get the router off the ground, I have one mill project in mind. 3d Printer for the kids. Maybe a peck drilling jig, etc... I was wondering, once I splash out for this stuff, is it bound to only one computer, or one machine.It's not that bad. I recently upgraded Vectric Cut2D to VCarvePro, and that one says I can install on three computers, with the usual "nonconcurrent use" caveat; I suspect that's true of all their stuff. It's the usual gazillion-digit key that needs entry during installation. I think I recall it connecting to Vectric either during the install or the first time it was fired up, so if it was installed on three machines and one of them broke, it might require a call/email to them to get it working on the "fourth" (replacement) computer, but there's no way to tell without actually trying it.
Mach3 is no problem in that regard, just a key-file that resides in the install directory: it didn't even try to contact the vendor.

[John McClanahan]

IMHO, I would not use Mach3. Mach3 has pathologies running in a non-realtime system. At the higher stepping rates that CNC router run at, you will likely run into the dreaded stepper stalling problem. A fellow builder, Andy Birko (he's a member here) runs into this problem frequently enough that he's finally dumped it and is switching to KFlop/KStep, like me. This is a well known problem. I'm not sure the trajectory planner is all that good either. No one raves about it, and enough people seem to complain about it.

Please enlighten me on the problem with Mach3. :confused:


John

[Art Mann]

I just installed a new copy of Vcarve Pro on a computer that didn't have a network connection from a CD I made as a backup to the original download. I just typed in the gazillion-digit key that Lee mentioned. and it worked fine. What that means is Vectric apparently doesn't really keep up with how many copies of it you have installed. It might become a problem when maintenance upgrades come out - if they do such things. My license said 3 computers too and that is enough for me.

[Mike Heidrick]

Ive been running a Shuttle XPC with its built in parallel port and a Rosewill 2nd parallel port and Windows XP on my DIY CNC Jopes Castcnc with Mach and two Gecko G540s. Never a stalled nema23 ever. Maybe others have issues but all the machine I have built with mach work great. All the machines use built in parallel ports on desktop computers with add on parallel cards only if a second port is needed - no laptops or converters. Someday maybe I will try a ethernet smooth stepper but no reason to change so far.

Mach systems also has hardware based controls.

I have a Centroid m400 controller setup on the mill using the AllInOneDC and nema42 DC servos. Super nice for a larger machine but it has crazy expensive add ons and unlocks for a shop not doing it full time. I love it though and if it was lots cheaper I would switch the Joes to centroid and servos too.

I always read good things about wincnc hardware/software but I have never seen it run myself. Also flashcut seems like a good choice.

I think mach runs well but I too feel I need to stockpile some machines or look for an update.

The rumors I read are mach4 will require realtime hardware like a smoothstepper.

[Gary Campbell]

Mike...
You should give WinCNC a look if you have a chance. Some distinct advantages in some areas, including hardware that matches the software, 6 axis out of the box, DB25, DB37 single or dual DB37 comm, up to 75K data per axis, 20 outputs (12 with high voltage relays), 30 inputs (5,12,24vdc configurable) and a lot more. I was pleasantly surprised at the features and am using WinCNC on all my home builds. An often overlooked feature is that there is an actual brick and mortar company standing behind the product. An address you can drive to, a phone number you can call for technical assistance. Nice for when I work at home, mandatory at my day job, working for an OEM.

I have had the opportunity to have used Mach, ShopBot and WinCNC on a regular basis in my travels. I'm guessing few others have run all 3 OS's on the same computer on the same CNC to make comparisons. Of course they all have a feature or two that is unique to them, but to me, its simple. You get what you pay for. Function and stability of the proprietary controllers with use of PCI card controller, super reliable high speed capable comm and tech support. Nice package.

[Art Mann]

I will say this about WinCNC and its intelligent I/O. I have been able to cut complex jobs with it while working on another Vcarve Pro design at the same time and it never skipped a beat. The computer is very low power and poorly equipped by today's standards. I wonder whether you could do the same thing using a generic parallel port and Mach 3 software.

[Jim Dawson]

enroute pro can be installed on as many machines as you want. the catch is it has a usb key that only works on one machine at a time.

[Mike Heidrick]

Wincnc has a pci card requirement? Id like to get away from that as well. These new small PCs do not have card slots - maybe an msata or two is all. I5 chips, 16GB of mem, SSD, and no card slots. Gigabit network and wireless and some usb3 ports. The centroid requires one Gb network connection and that is it.

[Mike Heidrick]

I have been able to cut complex jobs with it while working on another Vcarve Pro design at the same time and it never skipped a beat. The computer is very low power and poorly equipped by today's standards. I wonder whether you could do the same thing using a generic parallel port and Mach 3 software.

I do it every day on a machine from 2006.

[Art Mann]

Wincnc has a pci card requirement? Id like to get away from that as well. These new small PCs do not have card slots - maybe an msata or two is all. I5 chips, 16GB of mem, SSD, and no card slots. Gigabit network and wireless and some usb3 ports. The centroid requires one Gb network connection and that is it.

Yes, WinCNC is a combination hardware and software solution. I really can't see any drawbacks to that. There is no reason to spend any more money than what is required to do a job well and this combination does. It could be that old style desktop computers will be in short supply at some point but right now there are still a huge number of manufacturers supplying a very large, if declining, market. I think I would would be more worried about a highly proprietary Centroid controller going obsolete than desk top PCs.

[Gary Campbell]

Mike..
I agree with both you and Art. As we know the desktop PC as we know it will possibly soon be extinct. With that said, there still will be a need for professional workstation PC's. Especially the versions that will support massive GPU video cards for the medical industry. They will not be the smallest or the cheapest computers in the marketplace, nor should they be. I do feel that market will leave some options for PC based small CNC control.

I am not sure I would be comfortable betting my livelihood on the limitations of a USB data transmission stream, or my checkbook on the proprietary controller. But, if those were the only two choices, I will take the stable one.... proprietary. This is due to the decline in recent years of PC's to transmit CNC data over USB while at the same time PC hardware providers have been telling us the data rate is going up. It may be, just not for the type of data we need and the speed we need it at. Couple that with the fact that the Windows OS control priority of the USB buss as it sees fit and its a wonder that any code gets cut. To me that is the advantage of WinCNC's controller, it doesn't require or use up much processor time other than to pass thru our favorite text files. Its a good fit for those that want more than the cheapest thing out there and might not be able to justify a 5 figure proprietary controller.

[Lee DeRaud]

I don't think you can legally load Vectric SW on more than two machines at a time. I have Aspire installed on my office PC and CNC PC.
Send them an email at sales@vectric.com They have always been very responsive to my questions.It's three: http://support.vectric.com/aspire-questions/item/how-many-computers-can-software-be-installed-on