Laser: chinese, or 'MURICA best for me? Also, anyone in central FL w/ chinese laser?

[shawn m reed]

For the past several months, I've been looking at getting a laser for my leathergoods design company (my full time gig, 1 other employee, not just a hobby). I plan on doing mostly vector cutting for new prototypes, and possibly using it for production work if I can find a setting that doesn't leave char marks on the surface of the leather as happened when I demo'd an epilog locally. (though I'm sure that, once I get it, I'll find a TON of things that I *could* do with it, including engraving, and expand my offerings). I realize that a chinese machine (shenhui, from what I've seen around) would be WAY cheaper than the trotec 400 that I've been contemplating, and probably work swimmingly for the vector cutting that I'm planning on, but I'd love to see one in action locally, maybe bring a few pieces of leather to see how the laser handles the particular material I work with.

So, anybody know of someone in the central florida area that's running a shenhui? (or, if there's another reliable chinese laser that I'm missing, I'd love to know about it). I'm trying to decide whether I'm just being smart in buying a possibly more reliable western machine, or if I'm being stupid and chasing a brand that is overkill for what I need it for.

I'd like to get this checked out soon, because I'll be going to a convention here in orlando in the end of april, and was going to purchase one of the 'big three' (uls/trotec/epilog) there if I haven't settled on a chinese model.

background on me, if it helps with any comments someone might want to offer on my situation to help me decide: I've used autocad for about 20 years, so creating/manipulating/working with vector files is no problem...I don't have much experience in corel, but I'm sure I can figure it out if necessary (or just work from dxf's from autocad), along with solving any other software-side issues with running a not-as-user-friendly chinese machine. I've never used a laser system before; all of my work is currently done with dies and a hydraulic clicker for production, and paper printouts and an xacto for prototyping. That said, I don't want to spend a ton of time screwing around to get a chinese laser working/keep it working, so if the cost of paying less up front is notably more time tinkering after the sale, I'd rather just drop the cash on a western machine.

[Walt Langhans]

Well if you feel like coming and visiting Atlanta I'd be happy to help :D

[walter hofmann]

hi there
tell me wha kind of leather do you use , also what thickness?
greetings
waltfl

[Kev Williams]

DEFINITELY check into a Chinese machine if your main focus is cutting. I bought mine out of sheer curiosity, and well, because it was so cheap- note that I got NO options whatsoever, aside from 3 spare mirrors and a spare lens. But every time I use it I grin from ear to ear, because it continues to perform beyond my expectations. And I can buy EIGHT more of them for the price of ONE Speedy 300. And while it would likely be an inefficient use of space and electricity, I can still get 8 Chinese machines to do more work than one Trotec! ;)

I'd love a Trotec, but if I'm going to spend that kind of money-- me, I'd be looking at the new Gravograph LS1000: 24 x 48" working area, 157 inch/second speed, and IIRC from my rep, less than 60 large with an 80w tube. But alas, I don't think it OR a Trotec is in my future...

But another Triumph or two may be... :)

[Harold Shinn]

shawn I have a fsl laser that I could show you. I'm in silver springs, fl thanks Harold

[Tucker Alford]

I would stop by and talk to Engraving System Support in Dade city FL who sell & service Universal. As a high volume awards shop I have zero time for analyzing machines, repairs or communicating with Chinese reps. That said when I do have an issue that I would like to discuss ESS is a phone call away & gets the job done. Both of my M300, while not appropriate for the work you would be doing, haven't been down a full day in 10 years. Whats your time worth? I figure @ $150 an hour it doesn't take much down time before you start to get frustrated. Englewood FL

[shawn m reed]

walt langhans; thanks man! I might take you up on that...been looking for a bit of an excuse to visit atlanta.

walter hofmann; I use horween leathers, primarily chromexcel, with some veg tan. weights ranging from 2-3oz horsefront up to 5-6oz steerhide

kev williams; a 9:1 price vs. the speedy 300? wow...that MUST be crazy cheap...around 3k? for 3k, I might just have to try it out. I'd never seen gravograph before, and it doesn't look like the LS1000 is on their website yet. However, that price is QUITE a bit more expensive than the speedy 400 w/ 80w I was quoted by trotec...granted, a 400 is 24x39, not 24x48, but for ~60 I'm getting into a speedy 500 w/ 49x28.

harold; thanks man...might be worth a trip up to silver springs to check stuff out. what size and power is your setup?

tucker; that is 100% my dilemma. I'm very willing and able to pay more to have something that is reliable...but if I only ever use the machine for prototyping, that probably isn't quite worth the premium. however, if i move into production with the laser (if I can find settings where it cuts the leather cleanly and reliably, without making me have to spend loads of time messing with the edges to get off a bunch of char), it would need to be running reliably. Maybe that means I get a "best of the bunch" of the chinese machines, use it for a while, and then re-evaluate going to a premium western machine.

[Scott Shepherd]

DEFINITELY check into a Chinese machine if your main focus is cutting. I bought mine out of sheer curiosity, and well, because it was so cheap- note that I got NO options whatsoever, aside from 3 spare mirrors and a spare lens. But every time I use it I grin from ear to ear, because it continues to perform beyond my expectations. And I can buy EIGHT more of them for the price of ONE Speedy 300. And while it would likely be an inefficient use of space and electricity, I can still get 8 Chinese machines to do more work than one Trotec! ;)

While that all sounds great for your business, it would wreck my business. I have a number of jobs that the Chinese machines WILL NOT DO. Those jobs total the cost of a Trotec every year. So if I were to opt to get the Chinese machines, I would lose a lot of money in revenue from those customers. 8 Chinese machines or 80 Chinese machines isn't going to help. It's not always about how much something costs, it can also be about what something is capable of doing. A Chinese machine would be utterly useless to me and the types of things I do.

That doesn't mean anything other than what works for one person might not work for another person. Most all of us have very different types of customers and demands. There is no "One Size Fit's All" in the laser world and just because someone got what they perceive to be the perfect machine for them, doesn't make it the perfect machine for the entire engraving world. It also doesn't mean that I believe Chinese lasers are bad, flawed, or junk. It just means they won't work for our needs, but they might very well be perfect for your needs.

[David Somers]

Steve (Scott)

Would you mind sharing what types of jobs the Chinese machines won't do for you? Since I haven't bought yet and am still dancing around the purchase I continue to use the opportunity to follow the differences between machines and confuse the issue in my mind. <grin>

Dave

[shawn m reed]

I have a number of jobs that the Chinese machines WILL NOT DO....It's not always about how much something costs, it can also be about what something is capable of doing. A Chinese machine would be utterly useless to me and the types of things I do.

That doesn't mean anything other than what works for one person might not work for another person. Most all of us have very different types of customers and demands.

Absolutely makes sense, Steve...I figured that might be the case, but I thought that with the relatively simple job of cutting, a higher powered chinese machine would work well for me. It might not be so good for engraving, but as I mentioned, I'm not really that worried about engraving at this point...but, maybe, if I got a machine that COULD do it well, I'd end up doing it.

Being able to engrave custom logos into my products (the retailer's logo, for example) would be a nice possibility...but I've seen that leather gives mixed results with this, particularly the chromexcel with all of the oils that are in it. I don't want to drop all the extra dough on something that I won't get the use out of. As David said, I'd love it if you could share what the chinese machines won't do for you.

[Walt Langhans]

walt langhans; thanks man! I might take you up on that...been looking for a bit of an excuse to visit atlanta.

It's a fun town!

[Scott Shepherd]

Steve (Scott)

Would you mind sharing what types of jobs the Chinese machines won't do for you? Since I haven't bought yet and am still dancing around the purchase I continue to use the opportunity to follow the differences between machines and confuse the issue in my mind. <grin>

Dave

Unfortunately for this story, there's not much I can share. It's proprietary parts for a customer I have a Non Disclosure Agreement with. However, it has to do with very tight tolerances across a lot of objects across the entire table.

[David Somers]

Steve! No worries. Am I correct in saying the issue is in cutting however? You are not getting the accuracy you need while cutting with the Chinese machine and the issue wasnt with engraving?

Thanks!!

Dave

[Scott Shepherd]

Steve! No worries. Am I correct in saying the issue is in cutting however? You are not getting the accuracy you need while cutting with the Chinese machine and the issue wasnt with engraving?

Thanks!!

Dave

You would be correct. However, I have engraving jobs that couldn't be done either because of the small fonts and speed at which it was done. That one job almost paid for our Trotec. My point being is that it's nice to tout cheap pricing and pretend that there's no difference in a Chinese machine and a mainstream machine other than the price, but that's simply not true. The two have very stark differences. The question is do those differences matter in your work. If not, then it doesn't matter, if so, then you might rethink things.

[Sandra Mart]

Chinese machine not bad to me.. but for quality i suggest western machine...http://watchfree.me/11/w.png

[shawn m reed]

hi there
tell me wha kind of leather do you use , also what thickness?
greetings
waltfl

I use horween leathers, primarily chromexcel, with some veg tan. weights ranging from 2-3oz horsefront up to 5-6oz steerhide. do you have any experience with a laser and these types of weights or similar tannages?

[David Somers]

Thanks Steve! (Scott)

Appreciate that. That helps. A bit off topic, but when I have a chance at home I am putting together some tests to send over to Rabbit Laser and see what Ray can do with it, and will also do the same with Epi and ULS and Trotec. Though if it turns out the Rabbit won't cut it for what I would like to do I may be priced out. Will see what happens then. Fortunately I am not in a rush. Not that I have any free time at home for the foreseeable future.

Dave

[tommy suriady]

Hi, just a penny from a chinese laser user... i use a 4 by 8 feet, 100watt laser. Bought it for 10k usd with extra tube from china. Cut leather for custom car seats about 2000 usd a pop, installed. for customers all the time. I provide only cutting services, they install. Just use nitrogen as ur assist gas at 5psi or thereabout and u should be fine. In indonesia we get a whole big tank for 35usd and it lasts forever.
We never get charring, but we get soots at the edge of cutting, but that cleans easily enough. On our machine, we cut at 2m/min for the real calf leather(cant help w brand, though its definitely real). No one complains of accuracy: cant eyeball it and cant measure 'cos it stretches, but perfect fit all the time. Just make sure we lay the material down properly.

from what i know, 'western' vs chinese laser is in accuracy, efficiency and labor in the factory. Trotec may never miss a cut. I miss cuts once or twice a year, but i just recut no problem. I always request for extra materials for every order, though we very rarely use them. Maybe all my cut misses by 1 or 2mm, but we never figure out cos it is car seats.
We also cut acrylics and 6mm plywoods for molds. Never miss by more than .5mm. We cut and then print on mimaki ujf3042, always spot on.

maybe trotec speedy 300 i think and is much faster, but i charge by the minute and customer is fine with about 1.5usd/min. We have a competitor using trotec, but he has to cut materials down to size and maybe he is faster, but is charging alot more so people still come to us. With the same cutting file, people cant differentiate out cuts. I cut big and thick, he is out of his depth at that.

from what i know, chinese technical factory labor is 3usd an hour. I stayed in shanghai for a year. In usa, u get 4.8usd working in a mcD. I know cos i went to college in LA, CA. So that is gonna cost.

as for maintenance, we just clean lens and mirror everyday. Oil rails and gears once a week and change tube once a year just to make sure. 100 watt reci maybe 400usd a tube?
We never really tinker with anything else. Guess we are lucky with our machines. We have 2.

so there goes my cents. Maybe almost a dollar.

[Dan Hintz]

from what i know, chinese technical factory labor is 3usd an hour. I stayed in shanghai for a year. In usa, u get 4.8usd working in a mcD. I know cos i went to college in LA, CA. So that is gonna cost.

as for maintenance, we just clean lens and mirror everyday. Oil rails and gears once a week and change tube once a year just to make sure. 100 watt reci maybe 400usd a tube?

You haven't been to the States in a while, have you... ;) Minimum wage is up to $7.25/hr since 2009, so I bet it jumps again real soon.

I think 100W Reci are around $1k+,once you add in shipping et. al.

Other than that, what you wrote sounds good. :)

[tommy suriady]

Oh, one more thing, forget engraving on leather with 100watt tube. We only engrave on stones, marbles and 5mm acrylics and above. Something to do with min power setting. If i engrave on 3mm acrylic, it will just cut through it, even at max speed. And i think the on off when scanning(engraving)is so slightly off. Blurred left right edge(scanning direction) when engraving. And large continuous engraved area is kinda uneven to say the least.

[tommy suriady]

Sorry 1100 usd. Yeah. Are u serious about being 7.2 usd an hour??? I worked in the college library for 3usd an hour in 2003. Hahahaha.

[Dan Hintz]

Sorry 1100 usd. Yeah. Are u serious about being 7.2 usd an hour??? I worked in the college library for 3usd an hour in 2003. Hahahaha.

Yeah, and that was 5 years ago, which means it's about time to bump it up again.