Maybe I learned something...

[steven c newman]

Back at Christmas Time picked up a Kobalt #4. Been working on a tune up ever since. May have been a gift, but, it will be going back to Lowes.

I have a Dunlap 619.3702 almost the same size. I can make see-through shaving every time with it. Never had chunks of wood slide up under the chip breaker, either. Mouth is straight, not even a hint of waviness. Even has threads left when set to the thinness settings.

NOT this Blue POS! :mad: There is a serious wave effect going on at the mouth. I could get a see-through shaving, but the wheel would runout of threads, and fall off. Lever cap screw/bolt works loose as I plane. Lateral is floppy.

And now that Chip Breaker::mad: Too short. Tried several times to get it to lie flat on the iron, only to see it raise right back up in use.:eek: Tried the Dunlap iron & CB for a test drive. Had to run the wheel all the way up to the frog's backside, and still getting a thicker shaving. Chattered a bit too. That is when I saw the opening......Big Sur? :p

Yes, this has a frog adjust screw/bolt. Kept adjusting forward, then come back and adjust again. Almost like the frog backs up in use. Yes, the two frog bolts were tight. Tote bolts were needing to be tightened up before each and every use, too.

Yep, got burned a bit. But, Lowes is just two miles down the road. I think one plane MIGHT be going back on the shelf there, so.....BEWARE!:eek::eek::eek:

[Jim Koepke]

The words of John Ruskin come to mind:


“There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person’s lawful prey. It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do."

I can thank Baskin Robbins for bringing this to my attention many years ago. They used to display the first sentence in their stores.

Sadly there are people making, marketing and selling items that only resemble in appearance what they are pretending to be.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Posted this as a service, so others will learn froma mistake I made. I do Have a Millers Falls #9, a Wood River #4 V3, and a Dunlap #4. Any of these three would run circles around that Blue piece of ......iron. They were also a LOT easier to tune up, and use.

Been burned a few times....Handyman #1204 was actually better than that Kobalt. The Worth/PEXTO/Parplus were about the same as the Kobalt. None of these costs more than $15 or so. Including the Millers Falls planes ( yep, even got a #8, as well)

Used to feel I could tune up any plane that wandered in the doorway. Now? Well, just about set as to what planes I'll keep around. And, they will all work like a plane should.

Hope someone will take this as a "headsup" and save for a better plane...

[Daniel Rode]

That is a great quote, Jim.


“There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person’s lawful prey. It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do."

[maximillian arango]

good to know I was wondering the same about the home cheepo's buck bros

[george wilson]

Didn't some people warn you about buying that Kobalt plane in the first place? Or,am I getting senile?

[David Weaver]

Didn't some people warn you about buying that Kobalt plane in the first place? Or,am I getting senile?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205762-Planes-by-Kobalt

[george wilson]

Not as senile as I thought!!:) Too senile to recall my own replies though. You fended off all the advice you didn't like about buying Kobalt. Did you really need another plane anyway? You have a drawer full already.:) Best leave out fixing up NEW planes. Some of them are already beyond hope. At least getting the rust and paint spatter off old Stanleys leaves you with a functional plane. Messing with cheap Chinese planes just leaves you with a bad impression!!:)

[Jim Koepke]

Used to feel I could tune up any plane that wandered in the doorway.

Sadly, I sort of felt the same way only to be proven wrong. My experience is partly responsible for my personal choice of Bailey style planes from before 1930.

Even if there was a full machine shop at my disposal there are some objects that will never be anything but something that resembles a plane in appearance. The world would be better served by these all being melted into boat anchors or any other thing that may not have ill effects from metal with unfortunate karma.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Used to feel I could tune up any plane that wandered in the doorway.

Often you can, and the plan still won't be worth the cost of shipping in a flat rate box. That becomes a problem once your drawers are getting full.

[steven c newman]

It was after all, a Christman gift.

Haven't really fixed a plane in awhile, other than normal Maintainence.

As for the crack about not making any furniture??? Haven't been looking, have you now, Boyo? Oh well, seems I am not the only one with blinders on...

Lets see IF this will post283965"Re-Furbbished" a few old Pine floor boards, with a coopered top, thamk you. 283966283967283968and just finished up a Tool Chest for the shop. That one with the pine for the back. Some use plywood for a back, this one is a Frame & Panel, with panels raised with just handplanes. I'll stop here, and maybe refurb another....something or other...

[David Weaver]

We recall the progression. It went like this topically:
* I think I might get a kobalt plane. Everyone said "no don't do it"
* At Christmas you got one from someone else, anyway, and we said "well, it might not be something you'd buy but since it was a gift, you might as well make the best of it".

It didn't work out, but is a good lesson in getting nothing for something, or someone else footing the bill in nothing for something, when we'd all rather have something for nothing. Quite often something for nothing ends up instead being nothing for something.

that's just the way it goes. Plenty of us only learn a lesson when we do it, not when someone else does it and tells us not to do it. I'm not exempt from that, either.

A woodworking buddy of mine likes to say (and he always thinks I haven't heard it) is "the difference between the rockefellers vs. the guy down the street living check to check is that the rockefellers historically learned from other peoples mistakes, and the guy down the street only learns from his own".

I'm not a rockefeller, either.

Of course, he also always says "Marry for money. You can find love on the street."

[steven c newman]

Took the plane back to Lowes a little while ago, no big hassle in the return. Got a Lowes Card from it, so, wondered down and picked up two small router bits, to replace the ones I snapped off. They still had a few of those #4 hanging there, walked right on past. There was a blue, adjustable mouth Block plane there as well. Sorry, ain't getting any more from these people. 283969besides, I already have a few block planes....

[george wilson]

Yabbut,the only thing that saved Rockefeller from not keeping on being a zillionaire when the electric light was invented( He made millions selling kerosene),was the invention of the gasoline engine. Formerly,gasoline was just a nuisance by product.

I guess you just can't keep a good billionaire down. Well,at least,his starting Williamsburg gave me a good job,so I'm grateful. My vote was cast to be a craftsman,not a millionaire. Seems like all millionaires want to do when they become millionaires is become bigger millionaires.:) Really,it's Monopoly for real.

Jim: You got it backwards; the Chinese stuff is MADE from melted boat anchors!!:) (Old cars,actually.)

[David Weaver]

George, what do you think of the second saying..I added it.

My wife hates that one!! :)

[george wilson]

My dog and cat love me. I found them on the street,more or less!!(SPCA,actually. I get all my pets there,except cats show up at the door):) My cat sleeps on my bed. No problem with her. This morning,my little dog came blasting into my bed,trampling me at 6:30 A.M.. Tongue going 90 MPH!!.

[Mel Miller]

Took the plane back to Lowes a little while ago, no big hassle in the return. Got a Lowes Card from it, so, wondered down and picked up two small router bits, to replace the ones I snapped off. ...

Where were the router bits made? I like some things at Lowes, but watch closely to see where things were made. I never choose tools by low price alone. If I can't afford a good quality tool I will wait to buy until I can, even if it will only be used a few times. These's nothing like using a tool that does its' job well with no apologies.

[Jim Matthews]

Didn't some people warn you about buying that Kobalt plane in the first place? Or,am I getting senile?

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive, in my house.
You're not senile, George.

Tetchy, maybe - but not senile.

[Jim Matthews]

Lets see IF this will post283965"Re-Furbbished" a few old Pine floor boards, with a coopered top,

This is a really nice looking piece, and deserves more detail.
It's a finer example of what can be done with carefully reclaimed lumber
and attentive finishing.

[Pat Barry]

It was after all, a Christman gift.

Haven't really fixed a plane in awhile, other than normal Maintainence.

As for the crack about not making any furniture??? Haven't been looking, have you now, Boyo? Oh well, seems I am not the only one with blinders on...

Lets see IF this will post283965"Re-Furbbished" a few old Pine floor boards, with a coopered top, thamk you. 283966283967283968and just finished up a Tool Chest for the shop. That one with the pine for the back. Some use plywood for a back, this one is a Frame & Panel, with panels raised with just handplanes. I'll stop here, and maybe refurb another....something or other...
I like the box with the coopered top Steven but I am confused. Is it 3 yrs old or new? Not that it matters all that much anyway ....

[Jim Koepke]

Jim: You got it backwards; the Chinese stuff is MADE from melted boat anchors!! (Old cars,actually.)

I was thinking boat anchors because incase the metal is destined to fail in all forms it takes. At least if it fails as a boat anchor it would end up at the bottom of the sea never to plague mankind again.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Coopered Chest is at least three years old, maybe older.

Router bits ( 1/4' and 3/8" straight) were just to replace the two that snapped off. Next time I use the router, will slip the motor into the plunge base intead. Sneak up on the final depth....

90% of my bench planes are at least 50 years old, some are 100... Finding that Millers falls made a few good ones, Ohio Tool too. Sargent did make a few decent ones, as well. The DE6c I have was made by Union. Diamond Edge needed a Small jointer in their line up, I guess. Do have a few Stanleys as well. Then there is a "special" plane. It has a metric width iron that sits in a #3 sized base. There is a special frog under that iron. It cause the iron to meet the wood in a York pitch. Lever cap has no lever, just a maroon headed bold. iron is marked West Germany, the cap is marked Dunlap. Cost me a whopping $8+ oh sales tax....

Rust Hunt season is just around the corner.....

[Jim Koepke]

The DE6c I have was made by Union. Diamond Edge needed a Small jointer in their line up, I guess.

If my memory is correct, Diamond Edge is the trade mark adopted by Shapleigh Co. in 1864. This was learned when I was looking for information on my scythe that is branded Shapleigh.

If you like to read about hardware history:

http://www.thckk.org/history/shapleigh-history.pdf

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

Kobalt and Lowes
As I see it one can buy tools made in far away places by guys in flip flops who have never done any woodworking in their lives and don't intend to. Granted they are too busy trying to just stay alive.
Or
you can buy tools made in far away places by one guy who puts his heart and soul in every thing (http://www.marcouplanes.com/Marcou_Planes_0_Gallery.php) he does and understands woodworking intimately AND CHARGES ACCORDINGLY ! ! !
(I like guys like that . I can't always $upport them in their craft though).

Or you can buy good enough to get the job done made in your back yard

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/handplanes/

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48940&cat=1,41182

(cuts down on damage to the planet from those monstrously long shipping miles) which is pretty darned satisfactory I find.

[steven c newman]

I just go Rust Hunting. Seems to be a few Millers Falls around these parts.

[David Weaver]

As I see it one can buy tools made in far away places by guys in flip flops who have never done any woodworking in their lives and don't intend to. Granted they are too busy trying to just stay alive.
Or
you can buy tools made in far away places by one guy who puts his heart and soul in every thing (http://www.marcouplanes.com/Marcou_Planes_0_Gallery.php) he does and understands woodworking intimately AND CHARGES ACCORDINGLY ! ! !
(I like guys like that . I can't always $upport them in their craft though).

Or you can buy good enough to get the job done made in your back yard

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/handplanes/

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48940&cat=1,41182

(cuts down on damage to the planet from those monstrously long shipping miles) which is pretty darned satisfactory I find.

Buying vintage is still the money-sense way to go, but it's a matter of being selective about what you buy. there are some exceptions to inexpensive from overseas, like woodwell tools (mujingfang) but despite everything they make being fairly good quality, some of it is of a style that we just don't have a great use for in our woodworking (like tiny smoothers, oddly shaped hollows and rounds that can't work up against a batten, etc).

Nothing wrong with supporting LN and LV, but a buyer of inexpensive vintage tools with a little discretion will never get less done, nor find their work any more taxing due to forgoing the modern white collar tool brands (I have a pretty fair amount of the white collar tool brand stuff, but recognize that I don't really need it and it doesn't really make me work any faster or more accurately).

[Adam Cruea]

Buying vintage is still the money-sense way to go, but it's a matter of being selective about what you buy. there are some exceptions to inexpensive from overseas, like woodwell tools (mujingfang) but despite everything they make being fairly good quality, some of it is of a style that we just don't have a great use for in our woodworking (like tiny smoothers, oddly shaped hollows and rounds that can't work up against a batten, etc).

Nothing wrong with supporting LN and LV, but a buyer of inexpensive vintage tools with a little discretion will never get less done, nor find their work any more taxing due to forgoing the modern white collar tool brands (I have a pretty fair amount of the white collar tool brand stuff, but recognize that I don't really need it and it doesn't really make me work any faster or more accurately).

I used to work for Lowe's, and while they are an awesome company to work for (they're huge and they seem to actually give a rip about their employees), I would still much rather support LN/LV instead just because they're a small business.

I guess that's something that comes along with having disposable income; one can choose to pay more for something just because of who makes it (in this case, small businesses). I still agree with you though; I have yet to find anything "new" that beats anything "vintage" (though I haven't been at this all my life, so maybe in 50 years I can say something new did beat the pants off something "old").

[David Weaver]

Yeah, choice between lowes and LN/LV, the latter wins easily. Like you, i've been busy disposing of income, too, but I recognize I could do tons more with tons less if there was necessity.

When I started this hobby, which wasn't that long ago - 2006 maybe? 2005? Most of the sentiment was that older stanley tools had soft irons because they were low quality, they were out of flat because they were low quality, the old chisels were soft because they were lower quality...etc. None of that's true. There's finally some traction in the last few years that the folks who have skin in the game with the blogs, either because they're promoting something where there's vendors, or because they're making little gadgets or "marking knives that never need to be sharpened" really don't have anything to do with how woodworking was traditionally done, and they're generally selling to experienced woodworkers usually when they're part of a clique. The rest of the experienced folks are digging through auction listings and sellers who have finely made vintage things and not trying to find a plane iron that will go another 200 feet or a marking knife that's supposedly never going to need to be sharpened.

Some of the popular blogs telling us we need to have gentlemans tools (and I exclude derek from this, because he's never made such a statement that I can recall) and we "only have to buy it once", so things like $300 vise hardware and $150 mallets are the only way to go - they've done a real disservice to reality for people getting into the hobby.

Bob R is another blogger, aside from derek (I'll carve those two out) who is very pragmatic and especially in bob's case, has focused on very reasonable kit with maximum enjoyment.

[Adam Cruea]

Yeah, but you gotta admit those old irons aren't as tough as PM-V11. lol

In all seriousness, I'll admit I pretty much switched all my irons out for LV A2s and new chip breakers. Mainly because I like the heavier iron and heavier chipbreaker (but we've been through that I like heavier things) and if I didn't watch it, I'd have a tendency to flex the stock irons when I sharpened them. This came in very handy when I make one of my #5 jack planes more of a hogger since I could camber the iron easier, but for all my other planes, I still prefer A2/PM-V11 and a LV chipbreaker.

The whole "having the latest gadget" thing is one reason I don't really like most of the Woodworking blogging circuit and try to avoid it. In my opinion, good ol' ingenuity is all that is needed since that's really all they had back in the day. It's also one reason I avoid a lot of the woodworking mags. After the one about fettling a plane on a bench top, I just thought "wow. . .some poor guy just ruined a wonderful #4 smoother with that advice" and I haven't picked up a FWW mag since.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, I've been there on the replacements. The old irons definitely don't have the edge longevity of the V11, but what they make up for is their perfect matching with vintage stones, and the total time in use is the same or less. I've gone around in a circle so bad that I literally was going through my box'o'irons last night to try to find a decent stanley 7 iron and passing up the replacement irons that are in it (that I thought I already sold - and did sell most of).

I definitely like the stanley cap iron better, and the vintage types. They had a lot of spring, and the new types are like taking the suspension out of a car.

Reminds me that I need to dump my replacement irons.

Now, would I have been working hickory all the time, I might have a different thought. I get enamored with all of those high wear irons because some of the first stuff I dimensioned by hand was cocobolo and kingwood to go in planes and make little shop fixtures, like stone bases. If you look at a block of planed cocobolo and something sparkles at you on it, it's going to kill everything except high speed steel. These days, I just don't plane cocobolo instead.

[steven c newman]

Isn't Wood river planes made by that Chinese co?

I think I'm going back to just vintage planes. Millers Falls, Sargent, Ohio Tool Co., and maybe a Stanley or two..


Had lost my Cordovan 9-1/2 about two days ago, almost emptied the house looking for it. NADA... Got to thinking, it turned up missing right after Igor clean the floor of the shop.....hmmmm, well not too bad outside this morning, went outside, grabbed a rake. Headed for the back fence where I pile all the shavings and such, about like a compost pile. Raked until I was almost all the way through the pile....ah, a glint of metal in the morning light? Yep, it had slid off the bench, right into the tub I use for shavings. luckily, it hasn't RAINED here this week..... Have the little critter inside and warming up. Looks like a refurb coming up...

( this little plane was found in the basement of a house my daughter had just moved into. Along with a few other goodies. Loaded them all up, and took them home. No charge)

[Joe Tilson]

I am going to add fuel to the fire. I am working on a #9 Shelton right now (just because it isn't made any more). I have heard you guys and should probably take heed. Being long-headed sometimes is a good trait, but buying a Kobalt plane is not in my vocabulary. Keep in mind the gentleman was given this plane, so why not give it a shot. Just my 2 scents.

[David Weaver]

Just my 2 scents.

There's so many ways we could go with that!! For me, it would be none or bad!

Working on junk planes is like betting on horses. It's OK to do it here or there, but if you do it a lot, the odds of the overall result being good (vs doing something else) are zero.

[Adam Cruea]

Yeah, I've been there on the replacements. The old irons definitely don't have the edge longevity of the V11, but what they make up for is their perfect matching with vintage stones, and the total time in use is the same or less. I've gone around in a circle so bad that I literally was going through my box'o'irons last night to try to find a decent stanley 7 iron and passing up the replacement irons that are in it (that I thought I already sold - and did sell most of).

That's actually why I use the Stanley iron over an A2/PM-V11 in my hogging jack; it's quick to sharpen.

I highly suggest anyone that works with hickory (and some of the harder woods) on a regular basis and willingly needs to get their head checked. Or just openly admit they have masochistic tendencies. lol

[Joe Tilson]

Well, they say practice makes perfect. Dave, I knew you would be the one to answer to my folly:). That old Shelton will go on a shelf. Maybe some day my great grands will sell it for a little extra cash at a yard sale.

[steven c newman]

And now284086a Defiance #4, just doing a bit of work. Will be working on a few others aftera while284087No longer has that Guta Percha tote( fell apart)or that amazing, two piece base casting. For a risen from the wreckage of USPS into the #6c that used to be a DE6c. 284088Dealer's table last Labour Day. No I didn't buy any of these284089I did buy the one on the left from him. The one one the right was a dollar, at a nearby Yard Sale. 284090That "Lost" Cordovan 9-1/2. Needing a bit of TLC, after lounging around in a compost pile for a couple days. Plane was foud in a basement of a house my Daughter was renting. Price? FREE! I even walked home the five blocks with it...

[Jim Koepke]

a buyer of inexpensive vintage tools with a little discretion will never get less done, nor find their work any more taxing due to forgoing the modern white collar tool brands

You should see the muscle build up on my blade depth adjusting finger due to all the backlash on those old Baileys. :cool:

jtk

[David Weaver]

And here, I thought we were going to see a plane that had a brand name "cordovan" stamped into the sole.

[Joe Bailey]

And here, I thought we were going to see a plane that had a brand name "cordovan" stamped into the sole.

Imagine how foolish I feel; I was picturing something in a wingtip, with laces.

284094

[steven c newman]

ROFLMFAO!!!!!


Would you have preferred Black Tie? I have a Black & Chrome Great Neck 9-1/2 sitting beside the Stanley one. Other than colours, they are the same. Oh, there on the toe, one has STANLEY, the other has GREAT NECK.

[David Weaver]

I did seriously think it was going to be a plane with "CORDOVAN" in the casting.

I guess there could be another line called tuxedo, plane that's all black and white maybe with something red on it.

[steven c newman]

Maybe a pair of these?284098284099284100Red, or Black? Black has a chrome hood, though. Throat adjusters differ, Stanley's goes up, Great Neck down. Stanley has nickle plated knobs, the other is just brass. have used both in my shooting board on end grain, same results. Use these for small items that need trimed a bit. GN was @$5, the Stanley was FREE!