Japanese chisel profile?

[Darren Brown]

Hello all,

I'm about to make the transition from Lie-Nielsen bevel edge chisels to Koyamaichi Oire-nomi chisels from Stu at tools from Japan. They come in three profiles: standard oire-nomi with beveled corners, isosoles Trapezoid(US)/Trapezium(UK) profile, and Shinogi/dovetail profile. I will use them for dovetails but they will also be my only everyday chisels. I like the Lie-Nelsen profile for dovetails but I would often slice my fingers on the sharp corners while chopping dovetail waste. Please help me decide.

Thanks,

Darren Brown

[Wilbur Pan]

The only difference between a standard oire-nomi and the shinogi profile is the triangular profile of the top of the chisel. But both have vertical sidewalls that are nearly identical. Some more information can be found here (http://giantcypress.net/post/556642903/hi-wilbur-ive-been-frustrated-by-dovetails-and). So pick the one that you like the looks of better.

As far as getting into the corner of dovetails with skinny pins, which is the usual reason people want a “dovetail” chisel, skewing a suitably narrow chisel, Japanese or otherwise, will be fine, even without the dovetail profile with the sharp corners.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zW_XwN98J8Y/TtI8jAyZz0I/AAAAAAAABuA/XrS_YTgQdAg/s800/IMG_3395.JPG

[David Weaver]

Shinogi designed for western woodworkers, like the ones LV carries (and stu can get you that profile) with the sharp sides don't make great chisels for everything. They are more delicate in cross section, especially in terms of the amount of backing material (which is probably mild steel or soft iron on the koyamaichi chisels, not sure which), and a little less easy to sharpen because of the triangular profile with the delicate edges.

If you are only getting one set, and the trapezoidal chisels have delicate sides (i.e., they don't have a large flat side at the bottom that is near vertical) they would be a better choice as an everything chisel. They were probably requested by stu specifically because of westerners wanting an every chisel.

Can you post a link to the trapezoidal style? I can't find them on his page to look at the profile.

[Wilbur Pan]

Can you post a link to the trapezoidal style? I can't find them on his page to look at the profile.

The three shape options that Darren mentions are available in the wider chisels (12mm and up), like this 18mm one (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=312_489_490_491&products_id=1344). The narrower ones list two options, isosceles/trapezium and shinogi/dovetail.

[David Weaver]

Given what wilbur posted, I'd want the trapezoidal profile for an only set. The edges can always be stoned a bit if they cut you (just a flat, of course, no rounding)

Before I'd order any shinogi (if you later decide you'd like to add a couple of those, which I can't imagine the usefulness of given the trapezoidal style), I'd confirm with stu that the edges were delicate like the versions LV sells. They are also finger cutters. Anything with a delicate edge will be.

[Derek Cohen]

The only difference between a standard oire-nomi and the shinogi profile is the triangular profile of the top of the chisel. But both have vertical sidewalls that are nearly identical. Some more information can be found here (http://giantcypress.net/post/556642903/hi-wilbur-ive-been-frustrated-by-dovetails-and). So pick the one that you like the looks of better.

As far as getting into the corner of dovetails with skinny pins, which is the usual reason people want a “dovetail” chisel, skewing a suitably narrow chisel, Japanese or otherwise, will be fine, even without the dovetail profile with the sharp corners.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zW_XwN98J8Y/TtI8jAyZz0I/AAAAAAAABuA/XrS_YTgQdAg/s800/IMG_3395.JPG

Hi Wilbur

You always post this picture when the topic of 1/8" chisels come up. I am curious to know what the width is of the dovetail baseline? It must be at least 1/4" wide. In this situation you can skew a 1/8" mortice chisel if you choose :)

However, what happens when the baseline is just 1/8" wide, as below? This is a common factor when I make slim dovetails on drawers. Things get a bit tight. Only a 1/8" "dovetail" chisel will work.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KoyamaichiChisels_html_332e8454.jpg

That is a Koyamaichi, by the way.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wilbur Pan]

However, what happens when the baseline is just 1/8" wide, as below? This is a common factor when I make slim dovetails on drawers. Things get a bit tight. Only a 1/8" "dovetail" chisel will work.


Or a 1/16” chisel, skewing it as above. I have one of those, too. ;)

Of course, you can avoid the whole issue by not making super skinny pins. ;)

I don’t remember exactly how wide the base of that dovetail was. It was probably a little less than 1/4”.

[Jack Curtis]

You may want to know that shinogi are called "dovetail" chisels because their bevel shape is like a dove's tail, not because they're more suitable than other shapes for making western dovetails.

[Darren Brown]

Thanks for all your responses. Is there a difference between western and eastern dovetails? I've definitely ruled out the shinogi profile. Does anyone have a picture of the standard vs. us/trapezoid profile side by side?

[Wilbur Pan]

Honestly, your best bet is to email Stu at Tools From Japan and ask him for pictures or a fuller description.

I can take a stab at this, however. Chisel makers who were based in the Tokyo area tended to make chisels with straighter sides, without the side bevel. This may be what is referred to as the isosceles trapezoid/trapezium shape. Their chisels look like this (ignore the two widest chisels):

http://www.japan-tool.com/nomi/Ichihiro_Oiire_Ebony/Ichihiro_Oiire_Ebony1.jpg

Most other Japanese chisel makers put a pronounced bevel on the sides of the larger chisels, and this is the shape that most people think of when they think about a Japanese chisel. I think this is what is referred to as “Standard 'Oire-nomi' with beveled corners”.

http://www.japan-tool.com/nomi/Tasai_Chisels/Tasai_Migaki/Oiire/Tasai_Migaki_Oiire1.jpg

For chisels narrower than 12mm, there really isn’t enough room to clearly differentiate between the isosceles trapezoid/trapezium shape and the standard oire-nomi shape.

Again, send Stu an email. That will be your best bet.

[Darren Brown]

Thanks Wilbur. Those pictures help quite a bit. Done and done on the email to Stu. He seems to be a bit swamped right now.

[Derek Cohen]

Typically, when you look at most Japanese bench chisels (include "dovetail" chisels as a bench chisel), this is what you get ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Japanesechiselsprofile1.jpg

The two on the left are "dovetail" (Matsumura). You can see that they are no different really to the two bench chisels on the right.

Now here are the Koyamaichi I have. The smaller ones were ground to fine lands for me by Mr Koyama. These were the first he made this way, as it is not typical. I think that this encouraged him to make them available more generally after this.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KoyamaichiChisels_html_m503d1791.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KoyamaichiChisels_html_35b9ceed.jpg

Even so, they needed a little more work (by myself) to get these the way I like them for dovetailing. The large chisels do not need small lands as they are used for pins.

Compared to the minimal lands of a LV or LN ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview_html_m819b234.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Noah Wagener]

I believe the current Shinogi at Tools From Japan do not have hoops like Derek's while the Veritas ones do so they (Stu's) are not meant to be jack chisels that can be struck? Dovetail work is paring with the fret saw removing most of the wood?

[David Weaver]

I have the KI chisels that LV sells (and has sold for a long time). They tolerate respectful hammering (as in straight into the material with no twisting or otherwise malicious stuff) just fine. I hit mine as hard as any other chisel with a 575 gram steel hammer or with a 20 ounce WIG mallet (usually the latter because it makes a lot less noise), as I always cut the baseline fast and sloppy and do striking work with dovetails rather than paring.

[Brian Holcombe]

I broke the edges of my LN chisels on a 6k stone, did so because I often use my index finger as a support when paring. They no longer cut me.

[Jack Curtis]

Is there a difference between western and eastern dovetails? I've definitely ruled out the shinogi profile.

Yes, but the only reason I phrased it that way was to emphasize that "dovetail" is an English term and all that I was talking about. If you want chisels specifically for dovetails, that's a different choice/search.

[Darren Brown]

Jack,

I was totally kidding when I asked if there was a difference between eastern and western dovetails. I've been told I have a very dry sense of humor and it rubs some people the wrong way or they just don't get it. Thanks for your thoughtful response. I love it when a question I asked generates such a lively discussion. Derek, do you have all your pictures ready to just call up, or do you take them special to match your need? You are prolific my friend.

Darren

[Derek Cohen]

Darren

Have you heard of Photobucket? :)

These are questions that have been raised so many times before. Plus, in many instances, I have written about them on my website (where there are more photos.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Curtis]

Jack,

I was totally kidding when I asked if there was a difference between eastern and western dovetails. I've been told I have a very dry sense of humor and it rubs some people the wrong way or they just don't get it. Thanks for your thoughtful response. I love it when a question I asked generates such a lively discussion. ...

I confess I didn't get the humor, but that didn't rub me the wrong way, it was a reasonable question.

[Chuck Darney]

I just got a couple of Ouchi chisels from Stu in a little different style. They're 'yama-ari' style and, according to Stu, they're made specifically for dovetails and general work. No side 'land', just a 75° angle on the sides all the way down to the back. They fit very nicely with the 14 degree angles I generally use and aren't nearly as "fragile" as the ones marked as "dovetail". They could easily be used as a bench or general purpose chisel. I've been very happy with them.

I'm sure Stu could give you more information.