Questions on holes for bench dogs

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi guys.
I got my bench flat - will post separately on that later. But now Id like to add more holes for bench dogs and I cant find the info I used to do the first set. (The current set run every 2" from the front to the back, in front of my vise.) Id like to run these LENGTHWISE down the bench. Heres my questions. Id appreciate any advise here. id like to build a variety of stuff and Im looking for flexibilty.

1. The bench is 6 feet long. How far apart should I make the holes? Is every 12" ok, or should I drill them every 6", or even less?

2. Should I make one single line of holes down the length of the bench, or 2 parallel lines down the length of the bench? Is one way better than another or is it just personal preference?

3. Ok, I know this is the Neander Forum, but can anyone suggest a good way to drill the holes perpendicular to the bench? I cant find a good reference and I dont want to use a plunge router.

Thanks guys!
Fred

[maximillian arango]

Only thing I keep hearing people say is put them as far forward as possible other then that the carvery will arrive soon to elaborate.

Load some pictures up I'm interested to see what you came up with since your bench is the biggest I can go.

[Chris Griggs]

1) 3-5 inches apart...I think mine are 3.5 or 4. As close to the edge as possible....like 1-2" from the front edge. Assuming you are using these with and end/tail vise of some kind....if you are just using them for holdfasts and stops then they don't need to be that close.

2) Up to you. A second row can be could for clamping wide panels, but it puts more holes in your top. Either way is fine...I'd start with one and than add a second row later if you find a need for it.

3) I've just eyeballed it with squares and a drill before (most not all ended up perpendicular enough)....some people use a brace...you can also buy little drill guides (http://www.homedepot.com/p/General-Tools-Drill-Guide-and-Chuck-36-37/100349264) for your power drill...the reviews of the guides aren't great but I'd imagine they are good enough for dog holes. When I add my holdfast holes to the bench I'm building now I probably will use a plunge router...holdfasts work best when the hole is perpendicular (I have a couple holes in my current bench that they don't hold well in I think because I drilled not perpendicular enough)

[Jim Koepke]

The spacing of the dog holes depends on the vise. If your tail vise only has 4" threads, then you don't want your holes 5" apart. On the other hand if your vise has a 20" screw you do not want to have to move it in and out that much all the time.

My bench has two rows of holes. The tail vise also has two dog holes. It is very useful this way.

If you have a wagon vise you may still want a second row of holes for holdfasts or being able to hold work from moving sideways when scrub planing.

What are you going to be using to drill the holes?

I know how I would do it with a 12" swing brace and bit. I would try to drill a small pilot hole first.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys. Ive got about 6" of thread on that vise, so I'll plan on maybe 3" or so between the holes. I was going to use an electric drill , though listening to Chris' point about hold fasts I might need to rethink that and use a router. :(

[Winton Applegate]

I "drilled" mine with a big O' dado stack on my table saw.
Then glued up the bench top.
Glued on a thick cap board over the dog slots.
Glued on a pretty, veneer cap over that.
You can see the layers in the first photos.
I pretty much went with the Klausz layout for the spacing. Worked out to about 4-5/8" apart on the BENCH.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0045.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0045.jpg.html)

That light twisty area with the darker lines is chatoyance. Lights up like a humming bird's ruby throat.
It is embarrassingly beautiful.
But I have learned to live with it.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Purpleheartincludingfancyveneeronfront_zpsb618dbf9 .jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Purpleheartincludingfancyveneeronfront_zpsb618dbf9 .jpg.html)




I varied the width between the dog holes on the VISE. What I did was "secret sauce" but a bit of thinking may reveal some time saving options there.


Vise in these photos.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0049_zps482c5df0.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0049_zps482c5df0.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Bigvise_zpsb6920150.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Bigvise_zpsb6920150.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0036_2_zpseafc2916.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0036_2_zpseafc2916.jpg.html)


Happy drilling . . . er . . . I mean dadoing.

[Sam Stephens]

Depending on how thick your top is, a plunge router may be tough to do -requiring a plunge from both sides. A 3/4" spade bit for a drill is pretty cheap and will drill the holes fast. Dadoing them before you laminate is even better, but sounds like you're past that point. Just stand a square next to your drill for a 90 degree reference and they'll be fine. In fact, if they're angled slightly toward the tail vice by a couple of degrees, that's even better.

[Chris Griggs]

Sam is correct on the depth issue. I left that part out. I will likely start all my holdfast holes with a plunge router and finish them with a spade bit in the drill.

I agree that for dog holes (vs holdfast holes) just eyeballing with a square is fine.

[Brian Holcombe]

That bench is spectacular Winton.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys!

Winton, that bench is gorgeous. How about posting a few more pics when you have time?

Fred

[Derek Cohen]

It is embarrassingly beautiful.
But I have learned to live with it.

Winton, it's difficult to feel empathy for you :)

Fred, use a 12" brace for the round dog holes. It has more torque than a power drill ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/IDeclareThisBenchFinished_html_m3e3f75d4.jpg

To ensure you get it square, use a V-guide. Here is Richard Maguire demonstrating ...

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=309

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Curtis]

Winton, it's difficult to feel empathy for you :)

Fred, use a 12" brace for the round dog holes. It has more torque than a power drill ...

To ensure you get it square, use a V-guide. Here is Richard Maguire demonstrating ...

That's a great idea. And it would also work for chair seats assuming you could make it bridge the scoops and can drill the proper angle once. Thanks, Derek.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Don't mean to hijack, but I'm going through the same process in my 12 year workbench build, and a followup question. Is there an advantage of square holes over round? Obviously dogs come in both and as far as I know, holdfasts are all round, so is it fair to say that round holes are more versatile?

Followup to that followup, anyone have sources for holdfasts that they would share?

[James Tibbetts]

These (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TL/item/MS-HOLDFAST.XX) have looked interesting.

[Winton Applegate]

Winton, . . . purple people eater . . . a few more pics . . .

Thanks Fred,

Most people just make fun of me for having a purple heart bench.
"The color of a teen age girl's eye shadow " and like that.

I got kind of caught up in it as an after thought.
When I started deciding on the wood I simply looked in my books to see what the strongest wood I could find a lot of locally would be. Zebra wood was out,
cocobolo ? Yahhhhh right . . .
rose wood ? In my dreams . . .

all very strong and heavy woods, I wanted heavy, but not too available in thick longish planks.
Then I looked at the strength of purple heart . . .
SUPER STRONG, rigid, HEAVY, available, not too expensive here.
DONE !
When I started to work it I discovered some nice grain in some of the planks. I was just going for straight, tight grain AND WHAT THEY HAD ON HAND.
I got some pleasant surprises.
Some of it is just the most bland grain, like the strip over the dog slots. Some of it turned out to be too nice to use for a bench but that didn't show up until I finish planed it and it lit up.

HA, HA, HA and I wasn't prepared for it smelling like dirty feet.
! I am glad I am done planing a whole bunch of it at once !
YUCK !
And you know what happens when you suck a bunch of it into your shop vac and then go upstairs and vac the carpets with the same vac ( I have the Fein power brush head for carpets) . . .
The whole house would smell like dirty feet/socks.
I was a slow learner there.
Ha, ha, ha.
There is a thread or two already here with more Winton bench.
I might find those.

The new high efficiency compact florescents make it look way more purple than in the incandescent light. It's almost frightening.
Purple people eater.

This thread is about your bench not mine though so I am looking forward to more photos of yourn.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

These (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TL/item/MS-HOLDFAST.XX) have looked interesting.

Thanks, the price is reasonable too, think I'll try a couple.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Fred,

Most people just make fun of me for having a purple heart bench.
"The color of a teen age girl's eye shadow " and like that.



Hey I think I said that :). If your going to quote me please at least have the decency to provide a proper credit/citations.

[Andy Cree]

I am with Derek - hand drill and a square next to the bit for reference.http://www.creeativewoodworking.com/uploads/1/0/2/7/10271529/7153716_orig.jpg?1381501316

[Darrell LaRue]

When I retrofitted a small quick release face vise as an end vise on my horrible solid core door benchtop, I pulled the apron off, and cut dadoes with a backsaw and chisel. This was for 3/4 inch square dog holes. I spaced them 6 inches apart. I wish they were 4, or even 3 1/2 inches apart. And I wish I had put one more really close to the vise, for holding wee stuff. So with the apron back on, the dog holes are 3/4 inch from the edge of the bench. Sometimes I wish they were closer to the edge.

I made a whole bunch of dogs and filled all the holes with them, so there is always a dog available when you need one.

Darrell

[Pat Barry]

The true beauty of the round dog hole is that your wishes can become reality with just a couple minutes work. That way you can live and learn and not drive yourself crazy by trying to figure out what is the 'correct' number or location for your dog holes.

Seriously, its like everyone these days needs to over-think and analyze every little decision. Its a quagmire of lack of decision making ability as far as I can see. Whats the best? Should I do tthis or that? It really doesn't matter to 99% of us anyway.

[Chris Griggs]

T
Seriously, its like everyone these days needs to over-think and analyze every little decision.

Well that's a relief. I thought it was just me! It's good to know I'm not alone. :)

You should see me an Paul together working on my bench. He's a pro carpenter with knows how to "get er done"...meanwhile I over think every stupid little detail that doesn't matter....seriously, I spent 5-10 minutes trying to decide if left legs should be 12" from the end or 14" from the end, and which would be better just in case I decide to put a different face vise on some day...I drive myself crazy!!!! I don't know how Paul can stand woodworking with me. :)

[Marko Milisavljevic]

That's because you are doing it as a hobby and can afford to waste time agonizing over it, instead of producing. And why not? I choose to do it that way because it is fun for me and satisfies innate urge many people have to try to do things perfectly.

[Reinis Kanders]

Schwarz's blog actually just had some info about bench dog placement.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/mistakes-first-time-bench-builders

[Frederick Skelly]

Schwarz's blog actually just had some info about bench dog placement.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/mistakes-first-time-bench-builders

Thank you. This was helpful to me!
Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

Just for the archives, in case it helps downstream ...

After several practice attempts using various methods, I just did not feel comfortable that Id get a perpendicular hole. My hands are just not steady enough and the jigs I made didnt work well enough because the Forstner shaft is too short. (Also looked at Forstner extenders, but couldnt make them work for this particular situation.) Tried jigs with the spade bit too - just couldnt get comfortable - which hacked me off because this shouldnt be hard. :mad:

So I ordered a Rockler Jig-It for $20 along with one of their Long Shank Forstner bits. The "long" version adds an inch to the length of a normal Forstner. Its carbide tipped, so its expensive - $35. Using these two together, I was able to get perpendicular holes about 1.5" deep. Then I used a spade bit to get the rest of the way through (without the Jig-It). This was easy to do, using just my 3/8" corded drill.

At the 11th hour, I changed my plan and decided to use Grammercy Holdfasts instead of a tail vise or equivalent. So I followed CS' advise and ran a set of holes down the back side of the bench (actually 4.5" from the back) at 15" intervals. I think Ill live with this a few weeks and add a few more as needed. (Ill post a "for newbies" thread about the Grammercy's after I get more experience with them. But so far, no regrets.)

Thanks for your help and advise guys.

Fred

[Joshua Hancock]

Well, if you are going without a vise and have some hold fasts, then may I suggest:

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1434

It works great.

and well, if you need a vise to hold something:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2265291141/

I made my twin screw for very very little out of 70% discount lumber and some random hardware from my home center.