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Jason Solodow
06-19-2005, 12:04 AM
Okay, I'm really new and inexperienced when it comes to lasers and wood, but I'm interested in using a laser for things like engraving pens, boxes, and small turned objects. What kind of costs are associated with that?

Nick Adams
06-19-2005, 12:18 AM
Alot because you are in my area! J/k friend.

More info would be needed really. Using a laser to engrave wood isnt expensive if you arent including the cost of the laser. Which we all do to some degree.

I would assume you are looking into a laser or have one, so of course your consumable materials ...ie wood.

But I don't truly understand your question. It isnt very clear as to what you are wanting the "cost" of. I would assume that you are wondering the cost of actually doing a piece vs what that piece would sell for.

Jason Solodow
06-19-2005, 6:31 AM
Actually, I'm referring to the costs of either having laser engraving done, or buying and running my own engraver...

Keith Outten
06-19-2005, 7:33 AM
Jason,

The cost of an entry level laser engraver is about ten thousand dollars (US). You should also allow one to two thousand dollars for software and other items like material stock. You also need to consider the time you must dedicate to learning to use a new machine. Finally you must consider the after purchase costs associated with replacing your laser tube, lenses and mirrors at some point in time.

The cost of having your work engraved will vary considerably. Engraving a pen with first and last names is frequently about two dollars. Engraving a box lid or wooden plaque will vary widely depending on design time, engraving time and a host of other variables much like the cost of building a box will depend on the materials, type of joinery and detail, size, etc. Simple text is easy to estimate and most engravers will provide text engraving at very low rates like twenty to fifty dollars for small plaques or box lids. Commercial signage is generally at the higher end of the price spectrum in that small engraved signs will almost always be in the $150 to $350 range. Most engravers use one dollar per minute of engraving time and add the cost of material, design time, overhead and profit to that figure to get the final cost.

If your work is considered high-end you may be able to purchase a laser engraver and adjust your fees to cover the additional cost of engraving. You can also consider engraving for other woodworkers or people in your area to offset the cost of the machine and be able to enhance your own projects and the fees for your work. Many provide engraving services untill their equipment is paid off then revert back to just engraving their own projects.

Michael McDuffie
06-19-2005, 4:10 PM
For reference, my three year old Epilog Legend 24 70 watt machine cost $29,990.00.

Michael

Chuck Burke
06-21-2005, 1:38 AM
Michael,
That is true, but like Keith said, an "entry" level machine can be had today for about $10 grand from some suppliers.

Chuck Burke
American Pacific Awards.
Maui Hawaii.

Lee DeRaud
06-21-2005, 9:29 AM
For reference, my three year old Epilog Legend 24 70 watt machine cost $29,990.00.
That is true, but like Keith said, an "entry" level machine can be had today for about $10 grand from some suppliers.Key thing to note for Jason's purposes is that an entry-level machine has about 1/3 the power of Michael's Epilog, and (probably) a smaller table also.

(The power/size tradeoffs depend entirely on what you want to use the machine for. If you want to do mural-size Corian inlay or mass-produce parts out of 3/4" hardwood, "entry-level" takes on a whole new meaning.:eek: )

Chuck Burke
06-21-2005, 2:09 PM
Lee,
Your point is well taken, and brings up another point. BEFORE one jumps into the purchase of a laser, KNOW what you are going to be doing with it. The intended use does make a huge difference in what "entry" level would be.
It is a point I had not thought of before.
Also, I believe one should buy as much machine as possible withing their budget.
Thanks for broadening my horizons.

Chuck

Michael McDuffie
06-21-2005, 2:31 PM
I got the biggest, most powerful machine I could as I was thinking about doing more commercial and manufacturing work than awards and trophys.

Turns out that due to depression and panic attacks, I'm not a very good businessman. The machine is on a five year $1 buyout lease. I pay nearly $1000 a month out of pocket for the machine.

My point isn't to scare anyone out of a laser but to make sure that you have a good grasp of your intentions and abilities.

If you plan on making money, I'd suggest writing a business plan. If you can do that (I couldn't) then go for it. If you stall and waffle around, as I did, be aware that it may not turn out a profitable adventure but rather an enjoyable hobby.

I'm not trying to doom and gloom here, the laser can make you a pretty good profit. I did enough work in January this year to make the payment and that was a pretty good feeling.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, a customer is planning on a run of 3 or 4 thousand parts a month over the next three years!

Michael

Bob Werner
12-08-2006, 8:00 PM
I have an Epilog Legend Mini 24. I have been trying to get the company to give me an idea of how to estimate its actual cost (just for the equipment) per minute, but they tell me they have no information to base an estimate on (does anyone else find that to be.... well, surprising?). When you mentioned $1 per minute for operating time, was that for a similar laser, a larger one, or how would one get an accurate cost per minute for their laser?

Thanks for your time!

Bob

Chuck Burke
12-08-2006, 8:22 PM
I have an Epilog Legend Mini 24. I have been trying to get the company to give me an idea of how to estimate its actual cost (just for the equipment) per minute, but they tell me they have no information to base an estimate on (does anyone else find that to be.... well, surprising?). When you mentioned $1 per minute for operating time, was that for a similar laser, a larger one, or how would one get an accurate cost per minute for their laser?

Thanks for your time!

Bob


Hi Bob,
The way *I* determine my costs is sto take my hourly shop rate divide that by 60 and that gives your your cost per minute. So if your shop rate is $60 per hour, and you divide that by 60 ( minutes in an hour) you come up with a rate of $1.00 per minute that your laser is running. Being in Hawaii my shop rate is $85.00 per hour so my minute rate is $1.42. At this point you need only keep track of the minutes that it takes to complete a job. At first you will simply do your best to estimate the time, but as you do more pieces you will KNOW how long a graphic or an engraving will take.

I hope this helps.

Chuck Burke
American Pacific Trophy & Awards.

Joe Pelonio
12-09-2006, 11:01 AM
I have an Epilog Legend Mini 24. I have been trying to get the company to give me an idea of how to estimate its actual cost (just for the equipment) per minute, but they tell me they have no information to base an estimate on (does anyone else find that to be.... well, surprising?). When you mentioned $1 per minute for operating time, was that for a similar laser, a larger one, or how would one get an accurate cost per minute for their laser?

Thanks for your time!

Bob
The dollar per minute charge assumes that the cost to run is much less than that or there would be no profit. There have been some discussions of running cost but it comes out to pennies per hour for the electricity, not significant.

If we were to consider the cost of buying the machine and assume a 5 year life and running 8 hours a day 5 days a week that would be (for mine) 27 cents per minute. Hopefully we all get much more than 5 years so that would be reduced, but then you'd have to add in the replacement cost of tubes and other after-warranty parts.

Bob Werner
12-22-2006, 2:01 PM
Thank you both for your time in answering my question. It was, indeed what I was looking for....

Thanks again and Merry Christmas to all!

Rodne Gold
12-22-2006, 2:19 PM
You need to amortise the machine over 2 yrs max and add on about 30% for repairs or maintenance, blowers , compressors , mirrors , lenses ,etc.
a $20k machine will cost you around 32k with finance charges and the 30%.
You normally work 250 odd days a year and about 6 hrs a day , so your 20k machine will work out at a realistic cost of 32000/500 = $65 a day or $10 an hour - whether it works or not.

In essence you need to do about 4-5x that to make it worth your while , ie do round $250-400 a day gross turnover. Even if you do manage to net like 150-200 a day , it doesnt seem like a great salary at $4k or so a month?

Mitchell Andrus
12-22-2006, 8:15 PM
Rodne, you're not factoring in tax deductability, depreciation and recapture upon sale of the used machine when no longer needed.

A two year depreciation (cost run-out) is not realistic. Nobody would buy a machine with a lifespan of two years. Your model doesn't account for the warranty period, typically two years on all but the tube, and it allows for the complete destruction (rendered valueless) of the entire laser in two years.

If the basic unit costs $20,000.00 and lasts 15 years (I expect a $20,000.00 machine to last this long if $1,000.00 per year is budgeted to maintenance) and eats $15,000.00 ($1k/yr) in repair costs, it's cost is more like $1.16 per hour - without figuring tax advantages. 15 year cost = $20K + 15K = 35K/15yrs = 2,333.00/year. 2,333/250 = $9.33 per day. $9.33/8 = 1.16 per shop hour, assuming 8 hour work days.

Doubling the maintenance cost to $2,000.00 per year gets you to $1.66 per hour. If you're spending $2,000.00 per year, you're movig material through the beast and making money!

This makes charging a dollar a minute for running time very realistic. 10 to 20 minutes per day (running time) pays for the laser and it's upkeep.

$1.16 per hour carries the machine assuming an average of 1,000.00/year in maintenace costs. For some of us, this $46.00/weekly cost is made on Monday before noon. I use my laser less than 2 hours a week (running for about 35 minutes per week) and it is well worth owning, carrying costs and all!

My $25,000.00 laser will be paid for well before the tube needs changing.

Actual in-situ costs are much lower than the $10.00/hour you stated, and a machine not being used very much generates almost no costs for maintenance lowering it's cost per period considerably, by up to 30% in your model.

Dave Jones
12-22-2006, 10:02 PM
My personal opinion would put the useful life of a laser somewhere between you two. If your laser has a useful life of two years and no value after that, then you're buying the wrong type. And a laser that is 15 years old is going to be nowhere near as useful or capable of doing all the jobs required.

I would think you could use the laser for 5 or 6 years and then dump it for about 10% of what you paid. That would put it's cost per hour somewhere between what Rodney estimated and what Mitchell estimated. Maybe $3-$3.50/hr or about $100/week

That's just my opinion.

Rodne Gold
12-23-2006, 12:29 AM
Well , i expect to pay for any capital equipment of this nature in 2 years or less , thats why I amortize it over that period. Its not to say it wont last longer (albeit we upgrade at the 2 yr mark).
As to tubes , well I have never had one that lasts for 2 yrs without hassles. Depreciation etc is a paper cost , its not an actual cost. The big problem is the a 15 yr old machine or for that matter a 5 yr old machine will not be competitive , and I'll go so far as to say a 2 yr old machine bought today wont be either in 2 yrs.
Already we are seeing more potent , bigger and lower cost machines coming from the east and it wont be long before these are as competitive ability wise with the grossly overpriced "traditional" machines , hence making the case to amortise over 2 yrs real quick.
Apart from which , once barriers to entry and costs drop and the market gets saturated with machines , your profitabilty drops big time. I have seen this happen with cnC engravers , vinyl cutters and digital printers , it WILL happen with lasers. I can currently buy a 60w laser with a 1m x 600mm bed size for under $5k!!!
A laser requires an operator - even if its yourself and that will certainly bring it up to $65 a day or $10 an hour.

Yes I was being simplistic but I was being realistic , IMHO if you cant cover the $65 a day , you shouldnt be buying the machine. Actually I will go so far as to say that if you cant turn over $250-$400 a day , you would most likely be better off selling bananas ;)

I subscribe a 1 2x and 1/2 policy , at LEAST double the costs that any salesperson tells you that you will incur owning/running the machine and at LEAST 1/2 the promised ability of the machine and if it make financial sense under this scenario , go for it.

Mitchell Andrus
12-23-2006, 9:17 AM
Rodne, I'm not jabbing sticks in your cage, just making sure someone considering a laser purchase who sees your 2 year payoff figures doesn't run away because of you're $10.00 per hour cost analysis, "whether it's running or not".

I'm going to bet that there isn't a single member of the forum that'll throw away a working two year old laser just because the next model that comes out is 'better' or cheaper. As far as trading in for the new model... just how much better can they get? A slightly smaller beam? Faster cutting? A "better" machine doesn't make my time working the graphics any faster - let's face it, the bottleneck isn't the cutting speed inside the box for most of us. Loading and unloading product is a fixed 'per unit' figure, and is chargable to labor costs, not static costs anyway.

If you'd like, assume a business is going to perform laser work for 15 years. If the machines are going to wear out in five years and will get really cheap and faster/better/more productive... I'll buy three of them in 15 years, one every five years.

Assuming warrantee coverage for the first two years at least, maintenance costs drop to half or less, as do the purchase costs, assuming the market follows the computer model of the past 20 years. Any increase in overall costs during this time will be offset by higher production (one would hope) making a slight increase in the per hour cost a wash.

I still say that owning a laser doesn't cost anywhere near $10.00/hour fixed cost, standing still. Adding any discussion of labor is moot. Owning the machine and running it via paid help are two different columns in the P&L analysis. Labor isn't a fixed cost to be associated with ownership.

Depreciation is an actual business cost associated with purchase/ownership, it comes off of your taxable income and has 'real' value thereby lowering the purchase costs. Uncle Sam says so, so I take advantage of it. A one time $20,000.00 expense against income takes $3,000.00 off of your tax bill, assuming a 15% tax rate and no residual (recapture) value. This makes the hard 'cost' of a $20,000.00 purchase $17,000.00, not $20,000.00.

I understand that paying for the machine in two years is attractive and even a sloppy businessman can acheave this goal, but your model says a a $20,000.00 machine will cost $35,000.00 for those two years. No way!

If your $20,000.00 laser cost you $35,000.00 over two years, you've made a horrible deal, get your lawyer on the phone now.

This is my last post in this thread.

Merry Christmas, Rodne.