hollow grind.. japanese... wrong...?

[Matthew N. Masail]

I have 4 koyomaichi white steel chisels, the bevels are at 35 (came that way). I would like them to be more at 31-32 degree and was wondering if I'd
lose something by keeping them hollow ground to ease free handing? having them at 30degrees might make the bevel wide enough to free hand flat anyway,but right now it's a little of a balancing act, especially with the narrow ones.

is 35 the right angle for these tools?

[Kees Heiden]

Just don't tell anyone and do what you think is neccessary. Make sure you don't make them warmer then lukewarm.

[David Weaver]

I have 4 koyomaichi white steel chisels, the bevels are at 35 (came that way). I would like them to be more at 31-32 degree and was wondering if I'd
lose something by keeping them hollow ground to ease free handing? having them at 30degrees might make the bevel wide enough to free hand flat anyway,but right now it's a little of a balancing act, especially with the narrow ones.

is 35 the right angle for these tools?

They do very well at 28-30 degrees. If you have good skill, you can hollow grind them.
II
I'd side sharpen them on a medium stone before hollow grinding (actually, if I wanted to hollow grind them, I guess I'd do it, but I haven't found it necessary). Temper temperature for white II steel chisels is probably around 250-300 degrees F, so you stand a chance of changing their temper a little bit by hollow grinding them.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

I assume that you are referring to bench chisels (which includes dovetail chisels), and not paring or mortice chisels?

Bench chisels are traditionally ground and honed at 30 degrees. 35 degrees would be for mortice chisels or bench chisels that are being wacked hard into hardwood.

Hollow grinding ? It depends.

I hollow grind mine, however I use a Tormek with a 10" wheel. This creates nil heat and the hollow is very shallow (a few hones and it disappears).

I would not advise a high speed grinder, and the smaller the wheel, the greater the depth of the hollow and the smaller the amount of support behind the cutting steel.

Overall, I would only recommend a 10" Tormek (or similar) for hollow grinding.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Derek,

Yes, regular bench chisels.
I don't have a Tormek.... I use a 6" 46 grit white alu-oxide wheel and can grind without getting things really hot if I don't go too close to the edge. they are my only
chisels so I do wack them into hardwood, I could keep them at 35 but then I'd need to get another set for regular work, and use these as "mortice" chisels. would you say these are better for wacking, or general use? for general use I would also need longer handles..

David, in "changing their temper a little bit", how much is a little bit? a little softer (might be good) or a little weaker.. ?

[David Weaver]

It would depend on how warm they got. I wouldn't want to change their temper, though. The maker (KI in this case) knows a lot about what makes a very hard but tough white II chisel, and you want to keep it like that. Downmarket chisels are usually a little softer than their spec, but I don't think the Ki's are, I think they are the hardness they claim to be, as are ouchis.

It's not like you'd have good control to knock them back a few clicks, either, they'd vary and if you heat one up more than you want, you have no chance of rehardening and tempering one on your own.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

I would definitely not advise a 6" grinder. It will create a deep hollow and this could weaken the bevel. Also I doubt that you could prevent the cutting (hard) steel overheating as the layer is thin.

Regrind on sandpaper to 30 degrees using a honing guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew N. Masail]

Guess I'll leave them at 35 then.... I'll get another set for paring

[Derek Cohen]

Matthew, to answer your last question (our posts crossed) - with the bevels at 30 degrees, you will find that the chisels take a very sharp edge. These should make excellent all round chisels, easily good enough for paring in the general context. There is no harm in having another set of bench chisels, as you asked, but these should do it all. Personally, I am not fond of pushing Japanese bench chisels as the hoops are not as comfortable as a non-hooped handle. It needs to be pointed out that Japanese bench chisels are designed to be used with a gennou. This creates a combination capable of very precise work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks Derek! if I were to push I also feel I would have to replace the handles, maybe thats going too far. even If used with a hammer, should I leave them at 35 or regring on sandpaper to 30 ?

how about these for pushing :) ?
http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-services/chisels-gouges/lmi-chisels

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

I do not see the need to use 35 degrees unless you are chopping into seriously hard wood all the time. Mine are hollow ground at 30 degrees, wacked into Jarrah and other Oz horrors, and retain their edge really well. No chipping, ever. 30 degrees means I can still push and pare with them.

For paring I prefer a longer handle. The traditional Japanese slick (paring chisel) is the ideal in this regard ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Kiyohisa-Tsuki1.jpg

A handle such as the one on the Veritas bench chisel is a good compromise for paring and chopping. Rather than posting one of this, below is a 3/4" Koyamaichi alongside a 3/4" Stanley 750 (same handle as the LN) and a handle I made for my set of 750 (which is the same length as a Veritas) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/VeritasChiselReview_html_m7f638b55.jpg

Here are the LN and Veritas together ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview_html_m658973e6.jpg

Chisel handles are a very personal thing. You really need to try out a few yourself. If you have a small lathe you are in a position to make handles to your own specifications, and this enables you to look out for chisels that need refurbishing. That is how I put together a set of Stanley 750s ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Stanley%20750%20Dovetails/750modified.jpg

These may not hold an edge as long as my PM-V11 chisels, but I like them as much in the hand. Your own mileage will vary.

Regards from Perth

Derek

p.s. I think that you could do better than the set to which you linked.

[David Weaver]

I'd agree with derek, you're leaving something in the tank at 35 degrees, and there's no reason to do that.

You will be surprised how quickly they will grind by hand, if you have coarse sandpaper or a coarse stone and a guide, you can make the change precisely in a couple of minutes per chisel.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'll give it shot hopefully next week. I have some mirka gold 80 grit psa sandpaper. Thanks so much guys, I'll post an update.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Matthew

I do not see the need to use 35 degrees unless you are chopping into seriously hard wood all the time. Mine are hollow ground at 30 degrees, wacked into Jarrah and other Oz horrors, and retain their edge really well. No chipping, ever. 30 degrees means I can still push and pare with them.

For paring I prefer a longer handle. The traditional Japanese slick (paring chisel) is the ideal in this regard ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Kiyohisa-Tsuki1.jpg

A handle such as the one on the Veritas bench chisel is a good compromise for paring and chopping. Rather than posting one of this, below is a 3/4" Koyamaichi alongside a 3/4" Stanley 750 (same handle as the LN) and a handle I made for my set of 750 (which is the same length as a Veritas) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/VeritasChiselReview_html_m7f638b55.jpg

Here are the LN and Veritas together ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview_html_m658973e6.jpg

Chisel handles are a very personal thing. You really need to try out a few yourself. If you have a small lathe you are in a position to make handles to your own specifications, and this enables you to look out for chisels that need refurbishing. That is how I put together a set of Stanley 750s ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Stanley%20750%20Dovetails/750modified.jpg

These may not hold an edge as long as my PM-V11 chisels, but I like them as much in the hand. Your own mileage will vary.

Regards from Perth

Derek

p.s. I think that you could do better than the set to which you linked.

I love the look og thoese 750's! a friend of mine has been buying vintage chisels, and there is somthing about them. they just feel 'right'.

[Noah Wagener]

I got a few antique Japanese chisels that were ground on both the bevel and back to make pretty for their pics on e-bay. One corner of one was burnt. They are the sharpest tools i have ever used and do not seem to dull.Though the only chisels i have to compare are a ten dollar set from the Klingons. Well, I also bought a paring chisel as well but i prefer to pare end grain with these mortise chisels with bevels somewhere between 30-35 degrees. I ordered some chisels from Stu based on this experience.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Thanks Derek! if I were to push I also feel I would have to replace the handles, maybe thats going too far. even If used with a hammer, should I leave them at 35 or regring on sandpaper to 30 ?

how about these for pushing :) ?
http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-services/chisels-gouges/lmi-chisels

I only have one of those chisels, in a tiny size, so I can't quite comment on them as general use chisels, but I really do like that chisel a lot, and find the handle one of my most comfortable.