Tear-out and chip breaker setting

[Daniel Rode]

This is a follow on to my previous post about tear out (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214053-Tear-out-from-my-smoothing-plane).

My chip breaker was initially not long enough, so woodcraft sent me a replacement. I flattened the edge of the new chip breaker as it had a slight belly. In addition, I created a 50 degree bevel as suggested by Chris and David to strengthen the leading edge. Then, using the new 15k stone that arrived yesterday, I resharpened the iron. I used a guide to take my novice hand sharpening skill out of the equation. As far as I could tell, it's as sharp as might be useful for any task and seemed sharper than I can ever recall.

From my informal testing last night, sharpness was the most important factor. The oak I was working was hard and had a knot in the center. The grain reverses after the knot. With a sharp blade, a fine cut and a closely set chip breaker, I could minimize tear out in this quartersawn oak but not eliminate it. Anything under 1/64" gave me essentially the same results. I adjusted the chip breaker as close as I could set it. I had to use a magnifying glass and a bright light to check my work. If I set the chip breaker beyond 1/64 to 1/32 or especially 1/16, the tear out became extreme. It didn't take too many passes hitting that emerging knot to dull the iron and the results degraded pretty quickly from there. A few passes across pine with the grain gave a nice smooth surface but changing direction caused obvious tear out. I got similar results on a piece of cherry.

I resharpened the iron and went to work on the pine and cherry in both directions. I also worked the flame maple I got a smooth surface with no detectable tear out. The maple was shockingly smooth. The cherry was so smooth and glossy that I got side tracked and spend the last 30 minutes working it into 6sq sides and the tried my hand a a bullnose on 3 edges.

Maybe it's the oak, maybe it's my sharpening or the way I'm setting the chip breaker but I get good results in soft woods pine, cherry and poplar but also in the hard maple. The QS white oak not so much. I'm going to my luck on some walnut, red oak and a scrap of normal hard maple tonight.

[David Weaver]

Once you get everything figured out, there shouldn't be much of anything that you'd call tearout. The worst you should find from a smoother is some roughness if you plane against the grain (which is to be expected no matter what you're using unless it's sandpaper). That roughness is not a big deal, it can be mitigated either by a thinner shaving or planing in the other direction. That should only be an appreciable amount in the nastiest of stuff with runout back into the face of the board, etc.

You shouldn't get tearout because of a dull iron once you're using the cap iron correctly, just a rougher surface and if you drive the iron too far, inability to take a shaving as thin as you'd like.

I have literally never measured a gap, experience will get you to the point where you look at the plane and say "that's about right". That experience is valuable, expect you'll see an improvement if you stick to it, and probably within a couple of weeks you'll get results that you can't better with another plane.

[Chris Griggs]

For a smooth plane I set my cap iron presactly 3 fat cats hairs further than the smallest smidge from the edge.:D

For a try plane...a porcupine's quill further than that.

[Chris Griggs]

Okay here's a real answer. Really pretty much what Dave said, I've never has any way to measure it accurately though. The closest I've gotten was to hold the end of small rule on the tiny exposed edge of the blade and see how the distance looked in comparison to the 1/64th mark...if it looks somewhere remotely around half a 64th its fine. That will be close enough to prevent tearout...if the plane jamms up in the cut..just back is up a hair more.

Now please don't go and try to determine exactly what half a 64th looks like...if you can see the edge and you are able to clearly see that it looks somewhat less than the 64th mark you are fine.

[Jim Koepke]

For real difficult woods like your oak with a knot. I will set the plane for the thinnest cut it can take, then carefully plane toward the knot and lift the toe as the knot is reached. Then do the same thing coming from the other direction. In the end the knot might have to be attacked from the side or even with a chisel held flat on the surface.

Some woods just are not going to be easy to get to a polished surface.

jtk

[David Weaver]

If polishing those surfaces is important (and it becomes easier to attain in harder woods), you can just plane it, take a thin shaving or two (straight across the knot) and pick up a pile of smoother shavings and burnish the spot.

The new mode folks who are intending to put stain all over everything aren't going to appreciate that method, but I like it a lot. Realistically, if you're going to size something or seal it with shellac, the smallest amount of issue (i'm not talking about open pits where fibers are shoved out of place, but just lack of perfect polish) isn't going to amount to anything under shellac and a top coat or just a few coats of shellac, and the surface should actually look like it has more depth because of it.

There is a fine line between that looking good and it looking like an area that wasn't smoothed enough, but experience again will tell you where that line is.

[steven c newman]

I think I may have that same type of plane? A Wood river #4 V3. Had the same issue with the chip breaker being wrong sized. I have set the chipbreaker so I can just see a thin silver like sliver in front of the chipbreaker. So far, so good. it is the "finishing"plane. Others get rid of all the nasty stuff, then a few strokes to finish up with the WR.

Now, IF the iron you use has a slight camber to it, set the CB back so that you can see the corners, just barely. 283491This is just a jack plane, with a mild camber to it. CB is set right at the corners. A small smooth plane, without any camber283492agreed this is just pine. The plane is just a Wards #3, WWII era. There is just a thin sliver of iron sticking out beyond the CB. Didn't measure it, I just tap until there is almost no iron showing.

Biggest problem I have with the WR#4 V3 is the mouth clogs up with.....dust. Might be set a bit too thin a cut?

[Judson Green]

Oak is more prone to checking, perhaps that's adding to your difficulty.

I've had oak that has had hardy visable checks nearly parallel to the surface.

[Daniel Rode]

Chris, that's exactly the information I need. Maybe others have told me and I didn't pickup on on it. I can pretty well eyeball 1/64" and ought to be able to set the chip breaker somewhere around half that distance. Now that I better understand the approximate size, I can tweak things until I get it dialed in.

Being new at this, I'm dealing 5 variables and no known values. If I can get 1 or 2 solid things to reference, I can start to figure out the others.


Okay here's a real answer. Really pretty much what Dave said, I've never has any way to measure it accurately though. The closest I've gotten was to hold the end of small rule on the tiny exposed edge of the blade and see how the distance looked in comparison to the 1/64th mark...if it looks somewhere remotely around half a 64th its fine. That will be close enough to prevent tearout...if the plane jamms up in the cut..just back is up a hair more.

Now please don't go and try to determine exactly what half a 64th looks like...if you can see the edge and you are able to clearly see that it looks somewhat less than the 64th mark you are fine.

[Daniel Rode]

While the polished surface I got on the cherry was very nice, that's not what I'm expecting from the oak. I'm looking to create a flat even surface to clean up tool marks and pencil marks or to remove a bit of material to fit it to something.

The knotted piece is a scrap just for testing.


For real difficult woods like your oak with a knot. I will set the plane for the thinnest cut it can take, then carefully plane toward the knot and lift the toe as the knot is reached. Then do the same thing coming from the other direction. In the end the knot might have to be attacked from the side or even with a chisel held flat on the surface.

Some woods just are not going to be easy to get to a polished surface.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

The knotted piece is a scrap just for testing.

Or practice, at least that is what I tell myself late at night when I find myself mesmerized by shavings while obsessing over the surface on a piece of wood that will soon be tossed into the burn pile.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

The only reliable way to measure these settings is, as far as I know, with a microscope. But that is clearly nonsence in the workshop.

And like Warren said in the other thread, oak can be a bitch. The oak I have is doable, but takes care in the quarter sawn surface. So don't feel too bad about it. It is no sin to use a scraper and a bit of sandpaper to clean up the last bits.

[Daniel Rode]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this :)

Or practice, at least that is what I tell myself late at night when I find myself mesmerized by shavings while obsessing over the surface on a piece of wood that will soon be tossed into the burn pile.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Kees. I think the oak, or this particular quartersawn white oak may just be difficult to work against the grain. This much is clear, I can reduce the tearout from pothole size chunks to something that could be cleaned up with a a little scraper work.

More interesting to me, is the results I got on other woods. The poplar, pine and cherry were smooth and polished in either direction. The undulating grain in the rock hard maple was a surprise. I thought for sure it would tear and chip. It sure did coming off the power planer. It came out perfect.

I'm feel like I'm starting to get close to where I want to be with the planes. Just need to keep working to develop the physical memory.


The only reliable way to measure these settings is, as far as I know, with a microscope. But that is clearly nonsence in the workshop.

And like Warren said in the other thread, oak can be a bitch. The oak I have is doable, but takes care in the quarter sawn surface. So don't feel too bad about it. It is no sin to use a scraper and a bit of sandpaper to clean up the last bits.

[Jim Koepke]

The undulating grain in the rock hard maple was a surprise. I thought for sure it would tear and chip. It sure did coming off the power planer. It came out perfect.

Well of course, Power planers don't have chip breakers. :D


I'm feel like I'm starting to get close to where I want to be with the planes. Just need to keep working to develop the physical memory.

Watch where you step, that slope is mighty slippery.

I am pretty much okay with planes, but still learning.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

Let me clarify the "close to where I want to be". What I'm getting close to is a being a novice capable of doing the most basic type of work.

[Judson Green]

Yep! Some woods are just uncooperative. I had a badly wind shaked board practically disintegrate in a planner once.

Guessing QS sawn oak (probably rift too) is problematic not just do to its tendency to check but also the rays and open pores.

[Daniel Rode]

I like oak, especially red oak, because it's relatively inexpensive and very durable. The downside is that it can be brittle and splintery to work as well as the checking and open pores.

[Judson Green]

I'm a fan too. Unfortunately liking it doesn't make it any more cooperative. White oak in the 8/4 is almost a $1 more than cherry here SE Wisconsin.

[David Weaver]

Yep! Some woods are just uncooperative. I had a badly wind shaked board practically disintegrate in a planner once.

Guessing QS sawn oak (probably rift too) is problematic not just do to its tendency to check but also the rays and open pores.

Anything that has relatively soft early wood is going to be a problem under a heavy shaving because with or without a cap iron, it will tear up a little bit. You can limit the damage with a cap iron (as opposed to some horrific happenings in a heavy cut without one) and when you use the cap iron with your final smoother passes with less chip thickness, it should be risk free and remove whatever little damage will be there.

Unless the wood is improperly dried, you should be able to do all of it with "regular old" through shavings. Anything quartered has the potential to be problematic like that, but the amount of tearout that occurs even in a heavy cut should be something that's easy to remove. Without a cap iron, it can be horrific, and hard woods with steep irons and small mouths make for slow work.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've fallowed David and Chris' suggestions for setting and I'm pretty happy with the results. One of things that helps me to maintain a good cut is sharpening daily. When I use my planes I'm using them usually all day since I've been doing a lot of repetative work lately, in the afternoon I stop for an espresso and to hone the tools I've been working with that day.

Hard maple can be a huge PITA btw, it largely depends on the piece. I have some that plane gorgeously, even with curly grain, and some that are just a bear. My smoothing plane has a 55 degree frog, so anything more then a small cut is quite noticeable, which is fine for me. I set the cap iron tight to the end of the end of the blade (1/64th ish) and have tightened the mouth down to about the same, I usually keep the cut around .001.

[David Weaver]

Hard maple should be doable in bigger bites with the cap iron adjusted properly, but it is in general, not a very nice wood to work. I'd call it a power tool wood. It splinters a little, but doesn't have pores and machines nicely with power tools if it's straight.

It usually has a direction that it will like to work, but given the quality of the hardwood that's sold now, it's not uncommon for that to be different directions on the same board. I don't know how often I sharpen, but it's probably every 500-1000 feet of planing, depending on the wood and how deep the cut.

[Brian Holcombe]

It drives me crazy, some of it works like a dream but then you'll come along a real tough board on occasion. I breathe a sigh of relief every time I go back to walnut.