Metal working in a wood shop

[Jim Barstow]

I've gotten interested in metal working and am thinking of adding a metal lathe to my shop. I keep my woodworking machines and shop very clean and I'm wary of having a metal lathe in the same space. (I have visions of oil splatters and metal chips ruining wood furniture.) The alternative is to make some (expensive) modifications to my shop basement to turn it into a small metal shop.

Does anyone mix wood and metal working in the same space? Does it cause problems? I'd really don't want to spend a bunch of money fixing up a space if it isn't necessary. (Every $ spent on the space is potentially a $ less on equipment...)

[Mark Bolton]

In small quantities and with a lot of caution it can work but if your going to do anything of any substance it can cause you a lot of grief with coolants/oils in the shop especially with regards to finishes. Your concerns about flying chips and oil are valid as well as simple little mistakes like having dirty/oily hands and transferring that oil to handles, tool handles, door knobs, and so on around the shop only to later have them contaminate your wood work.

I say all this having a small lathe in our shop as well as occasionally doing metal working on things like drill press and so on but its a definite risk mainly with regards to causing finish problems.

[Jim Galvin]

actually its the other way around wood dust creates havouc on the metal working machines to oil is a dust magnent

[HANK METZ]

I've got a 7X16 metal working lathe in my small garage shop, no major issues to report, wouldn't be without one now either.

[Dick Mahany]

I have done metal working, light MIG welding and woodworking in my shop. I do have to work to keep the wood dust out of the metal lathe, and the cutting oils away from the wood, but it is workable. I'm particularly careful to keep the welding spatters away from the wood, but with some vigilance is quite workable.

[Mark Bolton]

actually its the other way around wood dust creates havouc on the metal working machines to oil is a dust magnent

I would much rather have a dusty lathe than a large piece of furniture that had hundreds of hours of fabrication and preparation only to roll it into the finish area and have fisheye's galore. Any finisher on the planet will tell you not even to have a can of WD40 in your wood shop if you can avoid it. Keeping it clean is my goal (the lathe) but most every old lathe Ive looked at has a 1/2" of crud/sludge on them at most points in their lives anyway.

When Im turning on the lathe and there are oily spiral chips whipping around and oily smoke wafting in the air I'm cringing the entire time.

As another post has said, I wouldnt want to be without one but it sure would be nice to have it completely separate if you had the ability.

[Wayne Jolly]

I have a 3-car garage that I use for woodworking. But in one corner I have a Southbend 9" metal lathe that I inherited from my dad, and I would really like to get a bench-top milling machine. While the concerns of getting oils on your woodworking projects are valid, the opposite is also true. What has been of equal importance for me is getting wood chips and especially airborn sawdust on the metal working tools. This layer of fine sawdust absorbs moisture from the air and holds it against the metal in the tools, and of course water and iron don't mix well. Fortunately for me, I don't live in an area that has constant high humidity so this isn't a huge problem but it is one that I need to watch.

Of course, this is the same problem you have with woodworking tools like table saws, band saws, and most other power tools. And hand tools like hand planes, hand saws, etc. The difference is that metal working tools are designed for, and require, much greater degrees of accuracy. A "tenth" in woodworking could be a tenth of an inch (0.1"), but in metal working it is one ten-thousandth of an inch (.0001").

It sounds like you are a hobbyist so you will most likely never need .0001" accuracy. In woodworking, if you get your wood within .005" . . . SCOOOOORE!!!! In metal working it could be disastrous, but I am just illustrating a point. The bottom line is that with a little extra care you shouldn't have any problems. Keep your metalworking tools as separated from the woodworking tools as possible, When switching from one to the other, clean the tools and then clean yourself, including changing clothes if necessary. Your hands should get an extra good scrubbing. And if you can, use machine covers.

Go for it and have fun.

Wayne


P.S. One more thing. You said your shop is in your basement so I would suggest that you keep metal working tools away from the doorway. My metal lathe is right next to the doorway that leads into my house and when I use the lathe I almost always wind up with a few metal shavings stuck in the carpet just inside the house.

[Jefferey Scott]

I do metalworking in my garage which is mostly a wood shop. Isolating the metal work from the wood as much as you can helps. If you can do some metal work outside like cutting steel with a dry saw, it helps. The two worlds will collide however and I think cleanliness is one key. Sweep, vac and clean up after yourself after doing either type of work in the shop. Beware of cross contamination with your hands as well. I keep "Goop" on hand to clean my hands often when working with metal, but even that's not enough sometimes.

[jim gossage]

I have designed my shop (23x30 ft) so that there is room in one corner for an upright mill, metal sanders, and a metal bandsaw. I haven't had problems yet but I don't have the upright mill yet, so my results are to some degree theoretical. My current strategies to keep problems to a minimum are: 1) different color rags and gloves for metal and wood working, 2) excellent dust collection to minimize dust problems, 3) compressed air by the metal working corner to keep machines clean, 4) finishing booth on the opposite corner of the shop, 5) dehumidifier to keep humidity in the 40-45% range and tool coveres to minimize the opportunity for rust, 6) sweep up after each project, especially between metal and wood projects. No problems yet that I have recognized.

[Mike Heidrick]

I am playing with both. My metal tools are a 12X36 lathe, Mill drill, CNC knee mill. I keep them all fairly clean. I spend 10-30 minutest each night and clean up each station that was used.I like starting in an uncluttered working envelope for the tool. A Blast of air on the ways, Blue paper towel, and swab of way oil before use works perfect on the lathe. I keep the chucks and collets clean too - good practice to have. My knee mill has awesome way covers (metal screw covers and retractable plastic/rubber covers over the ways and metal covers) and I use a very light mist coolant setup on the alum I cut. Mill drill I use cheap car floor mats to protect the ways and most of its cuts are dry or one shot. All the tools are in the same space as my ww tools but entirely too close together. A 4X larger common space is on my short list. I spray in a different area in the shop in a knock down booth that is not stored in the shop. Knock on wood but no finish issues yet. I even cut alum and wood on my other cnc spindled router (not the mill) too so I know both can be used on the same tool without issue. One day they will be farter apart but for now I have had no issue. I have tracked in chips via my pants and shoes. I try and wear an apron and that prevents most chips and stains so far.

[Mark Bolton]

This layer of fine sawdust absorbs moisture from the air and holds it against the metal in the tools, and of course water and iron don't mix well.

Wayne,
I am in no way advocating letting a metal lathe sit in the corner of a wood shop uncovered allowing dust to pile on it endlessly (mine is covered when not used) but while I know if we are contract machining for perhaps Bell Labs, Los Alamos, or Nasa, a bit of sawdust is not going to be welcome. But if the sawdust in my shop wafting through the air picked up enough moisture to rust my tools I would be, well..., out of business. I completely agree that the tolerances in metal working are much greater than wood but I also spent much of my youth nagging the daylights out of an amazing old retired machinist in my neighborhood who basically had a full fledged shop in his large basement. Everything from massive shapers (metal working not spindle), horizontal and vertical milling machines, and perhaps a dozen or more lathes. While the place was thoroughly saturated with oil, it was far from a pristine environment. This gentleman actually contracted a lot of rough milling on forgings for buck brothers out of his basement when I was a kid.

My point being, some airborne dust (saw or otherwise), in a hobby environment would be rusting my saw tops and rarely used equipment to no end if it were the case. I have tools in my shop that we may use once every couple months and they have a skim coat of dust on them but no rust. I am in mid-atlantic and in a shop with no vapor barrier under the slab so humidity is absolutely an issue.

Agreed, clean, separate, covered, is the best but heck.. Metal components were shipped in dry wood shavings for years for a reason :-)

[Jeff Duncan]

Count me in as someone who worries more about the dust on metal equipment than oil contaminating my wood. In reality every machine that has spinning components in my shop has some sort of lubrication. My shapers are oil lubricated bearings so there's always spindle oil around. As well as a dozen other lubricants for various other maintenance points. It's really not all that difficult to keep it off of the wood if your even somewhat kinda sorta careful. It's trying to keep the wood dust off of my South Bend lathe that's near impossible! It's like a magnet and no matter how well I cover it, the dust finds it's way in:( Whereas the woodworking equipment was designed and built to some extent to deal with dust….metal working machines not so much. They're generally much higher precision moving parts and it's better to keep them clean if possible. Having said that for the amount of metal work I do on my old beater lathe, that's not close to the precision machine it once may have been….it works out OK anyway:rolleyes:

good luck,
JeffD

[Jason Beam]

Does anyone mix wood and metal working in the same space? Does it cause problems?

Yes.

And Yes.

I would love a separate drill press just for metalworking. I would also love a way to keep aluminum shavings off the CNC out of ... well ... everywhere. The metal lathe is off in a corner which is less problematic, but i do drag shavings around. I think the only way to be effective is to be very diligent with cleanup. My plans are to build onto the back of my shop to make for a little extra space that i can designate metalworking only. the metal lathe, metal bandsaw, welder and angle grinder would go out there and i'd get a dedicated drill press (and probably a mill) for that side of things.

My biggest offender is definitely my drill press ... one, because of it's location, but also because of crossed purposes. Also, two of my sanders get used pretty commonly for both wood and metal and sometimes those get mixed. Usually i don't notice that until after i've smudged a nice piece of wood on a sander table covered in metal dust.


Edit: And just to weigh in on the metal tools with wood dust FUD --- I'm lucky enough to live where it's dry enough that i absolutely don't care how much wood dust lands on my metal lathe. Rust is not an issue in my shop, thankfully, and I don't keep my lead screw so covered in sticky grease (moly-d to the rescue!) that no sawdust accumulates on it. So yeah - i've always heard it's sacrilege to let sawdust exist within 30 miles of metalworking tools, but my experience tells me it's something to leave other people to worry about since it causes me no issues.

[Larry Edgerton]

I do both. One word of caution, I caught my 1" belt sander on fire when I forgot to clean it before grinding steel. Wood dust and sparks, not so good..........

Larry

[John Coloccia]

FWIW, and I think I'm the oddball here, but I've done the vast majority of my metal work dry. Feeds and speeds...

[Dennis Ford]

I do a little bit of metal work in my wood shop. Cleaning dust off the metal lathe is a minor issue for me. I have not had trouble with lubricant getting on furniture projects but I don't do metal work while finishing wood projects.

[Dick Mahany]

FWIW, and I think I'm the oddball here, but I've done the vast majority of my metal work dry. Feeds and speeds...

John has a good point. I try and use brass, aluminum and 12L14 steel to avoid using coolants if possible. Speeds and feeds is a good tip. It really does simplify things at times.

[Brian W Smith]

There are many types of metal working.Our sheet metal equipment,along with the Tig machines could be set up and used in a living rm.Our big H-frame press and English wheel could also be there.Hand work with files and chisels is pretty clean as well.Small to med sized DP dosen't cause to much mess.

Big mess:any and all grinding....to the point that they are a bigger hazard to your machine tools than dust,Keep weldinding/grinding area as far away from precision equipment as possible,with the exception of Tig(be aware of high frequency however)....but NO grinding!A slight tangent,but still on topic.....be careful in the woodshop with big sanding equipment close to precision stuff.

Finishing isn't as big a problem as folks make it out to be.Get a spraybooth.And get on top of your air movement in the part of your shop where you're prepping for finish.Then,it dosen't really matter whether you're sanding wood or sanding metal.We use lubricants on sheetmetal from time to time when applicable,but the same can be said for wood.The handtools(sanders)only see very limited crossover between metal and wood here.Meaning,we basically have at least two of everything.....usually many more.A cpl elec. RO's for wood and a cpl for metal would be an example.The air tools are about the same.......the difference being we oil the metal working airtools and "try" to run dry on WW'n air tools.We do use Duroblocks and Gold "stickit" paper,thats bourne out of auto body world in wood finishing.They are a joy to use.......and the irony is we prefer to NOT use them so much for sheet metal.We use custom sanding blocks made out of wood(duh),cvrd with 1/4" Rubbatex brand,hard foam.Air movement is critical for not only worker health,but the overall health of your finishing area.

There are lots of areas of metal work that goes hand in hand with the woodshop.Google for some images of wood "bucks" used in sheetmetal,car body restoration work.In a lot of cases the WW'ing these coach builders do(bucks and frames)is awe inspiring.One more example of not putting "limits" on WW'ing.Good luck.

[HANK METZ]

A great tutorial on a blended craft, thank Brian.

[Keith Weber]

I have a 12' x 48' woodworking shop, and a separate 12' x 10' metalworking shop. I wouldn't want it any other way. I like to keep my metal machinery well-oiled. Sawdust settling on those machines would make a gummy mess! And any lubricant used on a lathe or mill will end up throwing to where you didn't think it could reach. Yes, you can dry cut, but aluminum machines a whole lot nicer when spraying WD-40 onto the cut, especially if you're using a good sized machine. It prevents melted aluminum chips from welding back onto the finished parts.

[Bill Ryall]

I am primarily a woodworker, but a lot of my furniture is specialty stuff that utilizes a lot of metal pieces. I also have a line of welded specialty items I produce. I had both shops combined at first, but it was a huge pain in the butt. Constantly worried about fires with the wood dust and finish contamination due to the welding and grinding mess. When I had the opportunity to move the metal shop to a separate building, I jumped on it. The metal shop is unfortunately about a half hour drive away, but the rent is the right price (free). Makes it worth the hassle.

i always had a separate drill press and 2" belt sander for the metal work, so the 2 streams never crossed.

[pat warner]

I do cut plenty of aluminum in the woodshop, (MIC6, 6061 etal), no steel, brass or nickel alloys.
I do not turn the stuff, however.
Compatible with woodworking messes? For me? Essentially yes.
No fires, tool wear a little more severe.
All samples shown (http://patwarner.com/images/work_aluminum.jpg), cut without wetting agents, lube or coolants.
Drilling done with kerosene, however.
Do I recommend doing this at home, without priors?
An emphatic: No.

[Jim Barstow]

Thanks for the input. Sounds like since I've got space in my shop basement, I should take advantage of it. I've got a call in to the contractor who built our house to talk about modifying it by enlarging the entrance and adding a window or 2.

[Don Morris]

I only do woodworking, but I was always told that if there is a lot of wood dust in the air and you start to grind metal, and somehow a spark is produced, by grinding metal, there is the potential for an explosive atmosphere. Because of that, any metal grinding in a woodshop is a no no or done after careful consideration for dust collection/minimalizing/eliminating, etc. After hearing the stories told here, what I was told may have been exaggerated some. But FWIT, I thought I'd mention it.

[John Coloccia]

I only do woodworking, but I was always told that if there is a lot of wood dust in the air and you start to grind metal, and somehow a spark is produced, by grinding metal, there is the potential for an explosive atmosphere. Because of that, any metal grinding in a woodshop is a no no or done after careful consideration for dust collection/minimalizing/eliminating, etc. After hearing the stories told here, what I was told may have been exaggerated some. But FWIT, I thought I'd mention it.

Ask the people who told you that if every piece of electrical equipment in their shop is using an explosion proof motor. Drills, table saws, air conditioners, air cleaners, compressors. Ask them if they only use brass to hammer nails. If you have an explosive wood dust atmosphere in your shop, you've got far big problems to worry about than a spark blowing you up. That would probably be a welcome change from choking to death on wood dust.

[Charles Coolidge]

Yep I mix wood working and metal working in a 3 car garage though I take grinding/welding jobs outside. The lathe will fling chips and oil but it has its own shop space and chip guards.

[Keith Weber]

...but I was always told that if there is a lot of wood dust in the air and you start to grind metal, and somehow a spark is produced, by grinding metal, there is the potential for an explosive atmosphere...

I would bet that your chances of getting hit by lightning while sitting at your dinner table would be about the same as your shop exploding because a grinder spark ignited some lingering sawdust in the air. Grinder sparks landing in a sawdust pile and starting a fire that burns down your woodshop... now, that's a reasonable concern!

[jim gossage]

I do cut plenty of aluminum in the woodshop, (MIC6, 6061 etal), no steel, brass or nickel alloys.
I do not turn the stuff, however.
Compatible with woodworking messes? For me? Essentially yes.
No fires, tool wear a little more severe.
All samples shown (http://patwarner.com/images/work_aluminum.jpg), cut without wetting agents, lube or coolants.
Drilling done with kerosene, however.
Do I recommend doing this at home, without priors?
An emphatic: No.

I noticed that your photo said all the work was done with woodworking tools. Are you planing and jointing the alum blocks on standard wood tools?

[Doug Herzberg]

I have a separate metal shop, but I have used my ww drill press and band saw (light aluminum) for metal. The oil does make a big mess at the drill press. I keep my sandblast cabinet separate from both shops. Just don't want that dust around. I'm leery of oil when welding, but I wouldn't even think about doing it around ww dust and lumber storage.

[Mike Heidrick]

I only do woodworking, but I was always told that if there is a lot of wood dust in the air and you start to grind metal, and somehow a spark is produced, by grinding metal, there is the potential for an explosive atmosphere. Because of that, any metal grinding in a woodshop is a no no or done after careful consideration for dust collection/minimalizing/eliminating, etc. After hearing the stories told here, what I was told may have been exaggerated some. But FWIT, I thought I'd mention it.


"lot of dust"

I wonder what that concentration would have to be? I grew up by a Lauhoff grain company and they had grain dust explosions. That is a ton more dust than your typical wood working dust concentration.

1995 explosion cited:
https://www.ksre.ksu.edu/historicpublications/Pubs/1995Dust_Explosions.pdf

[Peter Quinn]

If you have an explosive wood dust atmosphere in your shop, you've got far big problems to worry about than a spark blowing you up. That would probably be a welcome change from choking to death on wood dust.


ROFL....I need to clean the coffee from my laptop now. Very solid truth though.

[pat warner]

"Are you planing and jointing the alum blocks on standard wood tools? "
*************************************************
MIC6 is ground flat to a mil. Never a need to thickness. But its edges do need squaring and sizing.
I do that, fixtured, on a router table.
Solid extrusions are usually equal thicknessed to a mil or 2 but not flat.
To answer your question, I would not present the stuff to a jointer or planer.
But I would bring it to a router bit, for example. (http://patwarner.com/images/tswebb4759.jpg)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Lots of info to absorb on this thread, so maybe I missed it, but why not partition off part of the woodshop for metal work? I've seen it done with curtains, seemed to work very well.