How Long Before it is Safe

[James White]

How long after applying a varnish type finish is it safe to bring it into a living space? I recently finished an entertainment center with Waterlox. Having brought it into the living room. I am still getting a headache and smelling that kerosene type of smell when using my gas stove top. So how long should you wait?

James

[Dennis Hawkins]

James
Waterlox is an excellent finish but as you discovered it is fairly high in voc's .(depending on the version used)
Depending on the size of your living space and how much transfer of air you have with the outside I would guess it is going to take a week for the smell to diminish since this is February in New England. I would sacrifice some home fuel oil (heat) for some fresh air in your home. Open up all the doors and windows long enough the let some of the gasses escape. Ask me how I know this !

[ray hampton]

why not turn a fan or two blowing across the item do not forget to open a door

[James White]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for your reply. I have been airing the house out a few times a day. I heat with wood so I go full bore and just open my front and back doors to the house wide open for about 10- 15 minuets. But I also discovered that this is setting off my smoke detectors. At first I thought it must be a back draft from the wood stove. Till it happened when there was no fire going. I not sure if it is the cold air hitting the detector or some sort of mix of cold air and the vapors from the curing finish. Other than that I have had the smoke detectors go off a few times even without the windows or doors open. Does anyone know if the fumes could do this. Or is it more likely my smoke detector is faulty. The open doors setting it off is definitely repeatable so I do not know what to think at this point.

James

[Peter Quinn]

To answer to question, with waterlox I'd figure 2-4 weeks after the last coat. Seems like it films over on application and traps stink under the resin that takes long time to escape, and until it does the finish isn't particularly hard either. Don't ever finish drawers or interior parts with that type of finish or you will be smelling stink for months or years. It kicks faster in warmer temps, but slower in higher humidity, and steady light airflow helps it cure faster in the finishing room. I too like waterlox for it's beauty and durability, but it's not a quick one.

[johnny means]

You could put it on an unused room with the door closed and the window open. I absolutely would not willfully deal with the fumes. I've seen too much liver damage in my field.

[Stan Krupowies]

Don't ever finish drawers or interior parts with that type of finish or you will be smelling stink for months or years. It kicks faster in warmer temps, but slower in higher humidity, and steady light airflow helps it cure faster in the finishing room. I too like waterlox for it's beauty and durability, but it's not a quick one.

Yeah, you're absolutely right about that. I did the interior and exterior of a cherry pantry I made back around May or so last year. The outside has a little residual odor if you get your nose right up to it. But the inside still smells every time I open the doors. And I had a fan blowing on it with the doors open for about a month. It took a good month for the smell to (mostly) go away on the outside.

I will NEVER do the interior of another cabinet with Waterlox again. I love the finish but it's going to be water based poly or shellac on the inside from now on!

[Dennis Hawkins]

Don't ever finish drawers or interior parts with that type of finish or you will be smelling stink for months or years.

Peter
Its funny you mention this because I made this very mistake on a coffee table project with three small drawers. Every time I opened either of the drawers it smelled like I just put the finish on them. The drawers are actually open air to the underside but it didnt matter. It was about a year later before the smell was gone.

[ray hampton]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for your reply. I have been airing the house out a few times a day. I heat with wood so I go full bore and just open my front and back doors to the house wide open for about 10- 15 minuets. But I also discovered that this is setting off my smoke detectors. At first I thought it must be a back draft from the wood stove. Till it happened when there was no fire going. I not sure if it is the cold air hitting the detector or some sort of mix of cold air and the vapors from the curing finish. Other than that I have had the smoke detectors go off a few times even without the windows or doors open. Does anyone know if the fumes could do this. Or is it more likely my smoke detector is faulty. The open doors setting it off is definitely repeatable so I do not know what to think at this point.

James

I would call my local fire station and polite ask them to test your smoke detectors

[James White]

I would call my local fire station and polite ask them to test your smoke detectors Do you take it to them? Or do they test them in place?

James

[Peter Quinn]

Peter
Its funny you mention this because I made this very mistake on a coffee table project with three small drawers. Every time I opened either of the drawers it smelled like I just put the finish on them. The drawers are actually open air to the underside but it didnt matter. It was about a year later before the smell was gone.


I like to think we have all made that mistake once, but rarely twice!. I know I did, even though those enclosed areas are open, drawers open and doors off, they just never seem to fully off gas. I've taken to sealing with shellac, tinting the second coat of sealer if color is an issue, and shooting water white WB lacquer over it. That takes a while to off gas fully too oddly enough, but eventually it does. I did a medicine cab in WB lacquer, let it cure open for a month, installed it......a few weeks later that WB smell was present every time a shower was taken and the humidity went up, for almost 3 months!

[Wade Lippman]

I find half a day is adequate with minwax.
How do they sell something that takes weeks to clear?

[bill tindall]

You asked how long it would be before it was "safe". It would have been safe to do the finishing in your living room. The odor threshold for typical finishing solvents is orders of magnitude less than the level where they will exhibit demonstrated toxic effects. Not that long ago any interior painting/varnishing would have been solvent based and somehow humanity survived it.

I find the odor of finishes pleasant. It reminds me the project is done and I can move to another.

[ray hampton]

Do you take it to them? Or do they test them in place?

James

if they are power by a battery, then you could take them to the station but call them first and ask them how they test the detectors

[John TenEyck]

You sir would benefit from learning about the new water based finishes available. There are quite a few now just as durable as solvent based products, just as beautiful, that have almost no odor when applied, dry in minutes instead of days, and have no headache inducing residual odor. What minimal residual odor they have is gone in a few days. There's really no reason not to join the 21st century of finishes.

John

[Rich Engelhardt]

Smoke detectors should be replaced every few years. Usually 5 to 10. (Some say 7 to 10)

Carbon monoxide detectors, those go bad after five years.

As either get older, they get more sensitive and go off easier.

[Gary Kman]

If the application instructions don't require full body protection and pressure fed air, apparently it is safe to be in the same room immediately. It is apparent that you are allergic to the substance so I don't see how anybody could provide an answer for you.

My calendar tells me that I'm living in the fourteenth year of the 21st century, quick dry solvent borne polyurethane dries in minutes instead of days, doesn't give me a headache or have a residual odor that I object to. I have read the label on waterborne clear finishes by the same maker and see "not recommended for floors". That tells me something about limits durability. Not all projects get walked on or rowed around in a lake so more durable is not necessarily better in every application.

Can anyone quote from a reasonable comparison such as FWW 187. I see it in their index but I don't have it.

[Jim Andrew]

I used some Varathane spar finish to coat my new assembly table, and was amazed at how little the shop smelled the next morning. The varathane company has been bought out by Rustoleum, but seems to still be the same product.

[glenn bradley]

I consider an oil based finish to be cured "enough" when it stops smelling; 4 to 8 weeks. I have been know to leave smaller items in the guest bath with the fan on an on/off timer till I open the door and walk in to no (or very minimal) odor.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I used Varathane oil based poly on some floors a year and a half ago & it about drove me goofy with the odor.
It took a good week for the odor to drop to a level you could work in without getting a headache.

[ray hampton]

I used Varathane oil based poly on some floors a year and a half ago & it about drove me goofy with the odor.
It took a good week for the odor to drop to a level you could work in without getting a headache.

DID the odor cause your headache or were the fumes the cause of headache ?,do you have to smell the fumes to get sick ?

[Bill McNiel]

Guess I'm lucky. I use Waterlox (not VOC compliant) a lot and have never really had a problem other than the long wait for it to fully cure so I can perform the final rubout. Recently did the final coats on counters adjacent to two kids bedrooms and had no complaints from the client. Same with counters in a guest house. same with 5' x 10' sewing center that couldn't have final finish coats until after install. Don't know what I'm doing right/differently but so far no issues.

BTW- I am fully open to sugestions/recomendations for products that will give me the finish of Waterlox without the 24 hrs between coats and the interminable wait to rubout.

[Don Selke]

Gave up on that type of finish and only use water base finishes now.

[Don Morris]

James,

How appropriate your question is! Today, I took back to Woodworkers my almost hardly used can of Waterlox and donated it to them because LOML put the hammer on using it ever again in the house. Look at my recent post of 02/14/2014 at 1:53am in the Finishing Forum, tittled "Waterlox Odor Control. I wanted to try it on some closet shelves before doing a new desk top for LOML. It has such a great reputation. The guys at Woodworkers Club couldn't believe the story about the overwhelming odor even though I followed all the directions of closing all the vents, putting a 24" box fan in the basement door (that's where I did it) to the garage and lifted the garage door, etc. There was such an overwhelming odor within minutes throughout the home, LOML had to open windows, put on the 1100 cfm fan over the gas range on high (and that fan will suck the chrome off of tail pipes), open doors and let all the heat out, etc. Hours later it was mostly gone, but there was some residual. I had a 3M half mask on with organic filters. I still developed asthma that night with wheezing and coughing. However, in doing more checking, my and your findings with Waterlox are not isolated. One of the best pieces of advise I got was from one member who said he does finishing with Waterlox in the summer, when he can do it outside. A wipe on technique is probably the least odor producing, but isn't the first or most highly recommended technique. I don't want to take the chance of having the problems I had with the stuff I had...ever again. Too bad, it must give a great result, I'm just not going to see it.

[Rich Engelhardt]

DID the odor cause your headache or were the fumes the cause of headache ?,do you have to smell the fumes to get sick ?The fumes were the cause of both the odor and the head ache.

[James White]

Don,

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. Venting can be a tricky proposition. Especially with a heated house in the winter. The "stack effect" was probably stronger than your box fan. Never mind what any wind pressures may contribute.

I for one will not be giving up on Waterlox. You just can't beat it for a wipe on finish. The piece I just did would have been a real PITA to brush and I don't think spraying would have worked at all. Especially since it is too cold to spray anyway. Since I have a basement shop I need to have some major venting going on and that would just make it too cold to spray. I just needed to be a bit more patient before bring pieces in to the living space. Had it been fair weather this would not have been an issue at all. Since a could have left some windows open.


James,

How appropriate your question is! Today, I took back to Woodworkers my almost hardly used can of Waterlox and donated it to them because LOML put the hammer on using it ever again in the house. Look at my recent post of 02/14/2014 at 1:53am in the Finishing Forum, tittled "Waterlox Odor Control. I wanted to try it on some closet shelves before doing a new desk top for LOML. It has such a great reputation. The guys at Woodworkers Club couldn't believe the story about the overwhelming odor even though I followed all the directions of closing all the vents, putting a 24" box fan in the basement door (that's where I did it) to the garage and lifted the garage door, etc. There was such an overwhelming odor within minutes throughout the home, LOML had to open windows, put on the 1100 cfm fan over the gas range on high (and that fan will suck the chrome off of tail pipes), open doors and let all the heat out, etc. Hours later it was mostly gone, but there was some residual. I had a 3M half mask on with organic filters. I still developed asthma that night with wheezing and coughing. However, in doing more checking, my and your findings with Waterlox are not isolated. One of the best pieces of advise I got was from one member who said he does finishing with Waterlox in the summer, when he can do it outside. A wipe on technique is probably the least odor producing, but isn't the first or most highly recommended technique. I don't want to take the chance of having the problems I had with the stuff I had...ever again. Too bad, it must give a great result, I'm just not going to see it.

[Jim Matthews]

There are three issues; why are your smoke detectors alerting?

Waterlox doesn't generate carbon monoxide, or particulates when curing.
The primary "flash off" is the mineral spirits solvent evaporating.

What follows is cross-linking to make the tough polymer coating.

If you subsequent coatings before the previous one is cured, it extends total cure time.
(It's faster to wait; which is an oxymoron.)

Second; in application - do you brush or spray on each coat?
Waterlox calls for a full week between applications.

Third; ventilation - if you have garage space large enough to hold the workpiece
you'll have fresh air exchange each time you leave or return in your car.

Waterlox stinks when curing, I wouldn't keep a piece in my house until it's dry.
By my method (3-4 applications using Mirlon pads), that's a minimum of 10 days.

It goes faster when the ambient temperature is higher, and seems unaffected by humidity.
http://www.waterlox.com/faqs/woodworking/food-safe-non-toxic-wood-fnish

******
If the piece is too large to move outside, I suggest erecting some sort of vapor barrier and forcing air through
to an exterior window.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tb8cqmh69c

[James White]

Jim,

I don't know why the Smoke/co detector was going off. I though it must have something to do with the solvent fumes. But I purchased a new one since it is on its 7th year of service. I did not know they had such a short life.

There web site calls for 24 hrs between coats. But since I was doing thin wipe on coats I did cheat on the last few coats and did two coats in 24 hrs. That combined with the low temp in the basement I am sure resulted in trapped solvent. Lesson learned.

Thanks for the zipwall link. I think that is a great product. I am going to mention it to my neighbor who is a GC.

James