Need help with a fine grit stone....

[Matthew N. Masail]

So I thought it would be easy, just choose any good stone and be done with it. well.... turns out that a stone that just 'works' isn't enough, because they all do to a point, just differently. and I've tried too many to just go try another.


I've tried:


Sigma 6k, 13k


Cerax 8k


New Cerax 3k, 6k


Arshiyama 6k (only one I have left)


I also have a 2k bester.


I loved the Arshiyama at first, but after a while I dread using it, somthing about a very hard finishing stone
that dosen't work for me, which I think is why I didn't like to the sigmas. I also really don't like it when stones clog.
I have no problem holding the angle on a hard stone, so it's not about getting it to work or not, but I find they do require less pressure.


the cerax 6k and 8k are softer, but more of "abraders" then "polishers". so they do not leave a smooth enough edge.


the new cerax 3k is much better at "buffing", but not fine enough.


the only stone that I got what I want from is a generic no name ceramic 10k that a friend has, but the edge needs to be honed on a 6k for it to do it's job.


So I don't know what to do now, my thought is to try a soft finishing stone. I have my eye on the 10k Gokumyo stone from Suehiro which is hard but
apparently amazing, but I think I'll still need a medium grit.


So what do you think, just get the 10k Gokumyo, or maybe a 5K naniwa superstone? 8k king? I mostly use carbon steels and some A2. occasionally the mujingfang HSS.

[David Weaver]

The shapton cream and the goks are the two types that you haven't tried. I haven't used the gok, it's probably slower wearing than a shapton pro.

Well, that and the chosera.

If you consider the sigmas hard, then I'm not sure what you'll like. Hard stones load, but using them is a matter of practice. You can literally "unload" them as you sharpen by taking short strokes and working your way up the length of the stone with short strokes instead of long stone length strokes .The virtue, of course, is that hardness offers you more options - you can raise a slurry on one and cut fast with a fresh surface, or you can let them load and burnish whatever you're sharpening.

Softer stones generally, by nature (unless they are very fine) leave a more toothy less burnished surface, so if you'd like that bright polish, but in a stone that doesn't load at all, I'm not sure where you'll find it.

I think a change in technique with the sigmas is applicable, and if there is a necessity to have stones between the 6k and something like the SP 13k, a slight change in method to work less metal on the final step.

[Sean Hughto]

Are you performing surgery? Seriously, what are you seeking and why as far as sharp chisels and plane blades? I have used simple Norton waterstones and readily available oilstones, and they all bring my tools to edges that are sharper than will last ten strokes in the wood. One could create an even finer intersection of the blade planes, but it wouldn't last any appreciable time, so why bother? At base what I'm asking guys like you and Davis who are connoisseurs of stones, what am I missing?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

Before you try out yet another stone ...

I know that Stu will kill me for suggesting this, but have you tried mildly soapy water spritzed on the Sigmas? This softens the cutting and reduces the clogging.

Otherwise try a King Gold 8000. This is nice and soft in feel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Are you performing surgery? Seriously, what are you seeking and why as far as sharp chisels and plane blades? I have used simple Norton waterstones and readily available oilstones, and they all bring my tools to edges that are sharper than will last ten strokes in the wood. One could create an even finer intersection of the blade planes, but it wouldn't last any appreciable time, so why bother? At base what I'm asking guys like you and Davis who are connoisseurs of stones, what am I missing?

I don't do surgical sharp on everything, though. I am a pig due to curiosity. It's much more satisfying to find the limits of a stone than it is to find the sharpest edge I can find (I already know how to do that). As long as I have a good grinder and can grind pretty much to the edge of an iron, I could literally get along with anything - from autosol on MDF to vintage natural japanese stones.

That's why I think this is a matter of technique more than the stones. Hard stones loading is a minor speed bump to get past with technique.

I don't expect most people will go nutty trying too find the virtues of each stone like I do (e.g., matching a broken in washita with plain carbon steel). I think a lot of the sharpeners-on-crack would probably come to my shop, look at what I'm doing day to day and tell me that they think I'm not doing it right because Rob Cosman says to do something else.

(Actually, I get PMs like that from people - probably because I'm opinionated and that's interpreted as prosthelytizing. Fill in the blank with the hero of the PMer, Rob Cosman, Chris Schwarz...for a while I was getting PMs from people about being wrong about the double iron because of Chris Schwarz said it doesn't do anything and then later on I got PM's from people telling me that Chris Schwarz was teaching people how to use it and I should check it out to learn from him :rolleyes:).

[Matthew N. Masail]

Sean you are right. for cutting wood I can stop at the 1.2 sigma by letting it load a burnish on it. but a very sharp edge is a pleasure for very fine finish on end-grain and avoiding tearout, it also gives greater control with delicate chisel work. I also feel the blade lasts longer when finished to this high level, and it doesn't take long to do with the right stone or strop, but I don't like storping plane blades so much. the edge I want it not extreme... just smooth and sharp enough to shave hair without making sound. but using a hard 6k or 8k I find myself playing cat and mouse trying to remove the burr, as they still leave a very small one, and the soft stones I tried leave a harsh edge. I also enjoy getting it that sharp, and want to find a way that I enjoy to do it.


David, I honestly didn't think on it that way. I use a hollow grind with a small bevel, 6k to 13k sigma worked fine, and gave a very sharp edge but I did not enjoy using these stones... I donno, maybe I am asking for too much. I like simply using the stone, not fussing with it. at the moment I use a mini DMT to raise a slurry on the 6k, but would rather not have to do that. bottom line it is about convenience, that is very important to me for the work flow. do you have any idea how the Goku are? any thoughts on the 5k superstone? I read that the superstones cut very finely and slowly, I was thinking that would help me get rid of the burr with more ease. 1-2 strokes on a fast fine stone seems to raise a burr on the other side..

maybe I'm doing something wrong, I never had this problem with the 4k king I started with... maybe I'm still sharpening the way I got used to with that stone..

[David Weaver]

With waterstones, you are either going to be raising a slurry or flattening a stone, or working specific surfaces of a soft stone to avoid flattening it.

In terms of not loving the honing feel on a 6k to 13k sigma, it's sort of like a fast car that has a clutch that doesn't feel like it's quite right. You can win the race with it anyway once you get used to it.

The superstones will not be an improvement, and they will choke on anything that you have that's difficult (like the muji irons, which are never going to love anything short of a very fine grained friable stone or fine diamonds).

The razor guys love the gok stones, what's the fine one, a 20k or something? I haven't tried one, almost did, but I realized that I already have things that cut as fine or finer (razor things) and it's a stone that would be too fine for me day to day woodworking.

You shouldn't be experiencing much of a wire edge with any of the stones that you've mentioned that are 6k or more, and if there is a little bit hanging on, you should be able to palm strop it off as you walk from your stones to your work. It should be tiny, something that if it's there and comes off, looks like a very fine piece of steel wool, or fragmented little pieces of such. If it's bigger than that, then there's something wrong. Anything large fanning out from a medium stone should actually come off leaving a very tiny wire edge coming off of the finish stones you've mentioned.

I don't personally like loaded strops at all - but I would go with a smooth clean leather strop if you have a wire edge or feel like you might. A smooth oiled strop will tell if you if the edge is smooth - anything no fully honed or removed will leave visual scratches across the strop - something you shouldn't see on a well honed iron.

I think you have what you need, and in my experience of trying about everything out there (including the king derek mentioned, and a zillion others), you're not going to find what you're looking for anywhere if it's not in the sigma stones.

One thing to try on the fine stones, do some back and forth (one stroke on the back, one on the bevel) about 5 times with light pressue, you should have very little appreciable burr. This back and forth is generally how a razor is sharpened - something where you'd like to avoid generating a wire edge at all but still be able to work to the edge with a finish stone.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Matthew

Before you try out yet another stone ...

I know that Stu will kill me for suggesting this, but have you tried mildly soapy water spritzed on the Sigmas? This softens the cutting and reduces the clogging.

Otherwise try a King Gold 8000. This is nice and soft in feel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Actually Stu told me to try and work with the Sigmas too.... but I was too haste and sold them before giving them a fair trial, they were my first ceramics, and it
didn't occur to me that they could work in more than 1 way.


maybe I can find someone here who has a king gold I could test drive. It would be funny if I ended up with a king.

[David Weaver]

I only have a couple of synthetic finish stones left. A sigma 13k, a king 8000 and a spyderco UF.

I actually liked the shapton pro better than any of those, but don't use synthetic stones much at this point and will probably end up only keeping one of those ultimately.

What I'm getting to, is the king is soft old style, and not particularly fine. I don't think you'll like it much if you're raising a wire edge with SP stones. I have one only because it was the first sharpening stone I ever used (of a friend's) and figured that I'd like to have one. when I got it, I was reminded that it's not that fine, that it's very soft and messy and it stinks (they smell bad straight out of the box).

[Chris Griggs]

What about the old style Suihiros?

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_405_583_585

I've used the Rika 5k....very soft but a nice stone...sounds like you are looking for something soft.

[Matthew N. Masail]

With waterstones, you are either going to be raising a slurry or flattening a stone, or working specific surfaces of a soft stone to avoid flattening it.

In terms of not loving the honing feel on a 6k to 13k sigma, it's sort of like a fast car that has a clutch that doesn't feel like it's quite right. You can win the race with it anyway once you get used to it.

The superstones will not be an improvement, and they will choke on anything that you have that's difficult (like the muji irons, which are never going to love anything short of a very fine grained friable stone or fine diamonds).

The razor guys love the gok stones, what's the fine one, a 20k or something? I haven't tried one, almost did, but I realized that I already have things that cut as fine or finer (razor things) and it's a stone that would be too fine for me day to day woodworking.

You shouldn't be experiencing much of a wire edge with any of the stones that you've mentioned that are 6k or more, and if there is a little bit hanging on, you should be able to palm strop it off as you walk from your stones to your work. It should be tiny, something that if it's there and comes off, looks like a very fine piece of steel wool, or fragmented little pieces of such. If it's bigger than that, then there's something wrong. Anything large fanning out from a medium stone should actually come off leaving a very tiny wire edge coming off of the finish stones you've mentioned.

I don't personally like loaded strops at all - but I would go with a smooth clean leather strop if you have a wire edge or feel like you might. A smooth oiled strop will tell if you if the edge is smooth - anything no fully honed or removed will leave visual scratches across the strop - something you shouldn't see on a well honed iron.

I think you have what you need, and in my experience of trying about everything out there (including the king derek mentioned, and a zillion others), you're not going to find what you're looking for anywhere if it's not in the sigma stones.

Well that's discouraging! I respect your opinion very very much but I hope your wrong. I almost want to buy a 10k goku just to prove that it's not true! lol


maybe it is a wire edge issue.... lately I've been passing the tip of the iron through a piece of hardwood or MDF like paul sellers does instead of fighting with the stone, it works... but makes me think I didn't use the stone as well as I could have. maybe thats false? or do I need to work on technique more consciously?


About the 20k, not to say you should try it or anything (I'm aiming at the 10k) I read a review by this japanese guy on one of the razor forums and he says that it's the only stone he ever tried that he feels can replace naturals, and that he is sad because considering costs he cannot recommend a natural stone to beginners anymore.

[Matthew N. Masail]

What about the old style Suihiros?

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_405_583_585

I've used the Rika 5k....very soft but a nice stone...sounds like you are looking for something soft.

I thought of that, but after trying the 8K Cerax that leaves a harsh (still sharp) edge I assumed these will too. do you remember how the edge from the 5k is? I read here that it's more like 3k....

[David Weaver]

I probably know the guy on one of those forums. I'd recommend against any expensive stone for sharpening razors, too. Razor sharpening is a different animal than tool sharpening. I've got an ideal razor routine - one that I think will allow me to use my favorite razor for the rest of my life without it taking on considerable wear, so I'm not in danger of being swayed by Gok mentions - fortunately!

A lot of the new straight razor shavers are hone happy because they haven't yet figured out the subtleties of maintaining a razor without stoning it every couple of weeks, and they're buying razors all the time and have to go through sharpening razors from states of disrepair or poor manufacture. In a good routine with a personal razor, the stone used becomes less important, and how a linen and strop are used becomes more important. It's just a completely different animal, and the finest edges are gained off of cheap pigments - finer than any hone, but they are not the route I go. Thus no danger of spending the money a new shaver might (I have spent many times more already on razor stones, though, so it's not like I'm turning my nose up at spending money - I just have gotten to the point where I'm using a razor and linen that i like and it rarely needs to see stones).

The gok's virtue (having not used it) is probably that it's extremely uniform and very hard, and a hard stone is a very good thing for a razor if the abrasive is synthetic, and generally if it's not. The shapton 30k is also well liked, and probably new shavers have much better luck with it than they do with naturals, too.

I still think, though, that you're not going to find a more user friendly fine stone than the SPs.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I only have a couple of synthetic finish stones left. A sigma 13k, a king 8000 and a spyderco UF.

I actually liked the shapton pro better than any of those, but don't use synthetic stones much at this point and will probably end up only keeping one of those ultimately.

What I'm getting to, is the king is soft old style, and not particularly fine. I don't think you'll like it much if you're raising a wire edge with SP stones. I have one only because it was the first sharpening stone I ever used (of a friend's) and figured that I'd like to have one. when I got it, I was reminded that it's not that fine, that it's very soft and messy and it stinks (they smell bad straight out of the box).

I'm confused now. but I don't mind the smell. thanks for the info about it being not so fine. I guess I have to try before I buy... I've spend way more than I planed already.

[David Weaver]

I thought of that, but after trying the 8K Cerax that leaves a harsh (still sharp) edge I assumed these will too. do you remember how the edge from the 5k is? I read here that it's more like 3k....

It's pretty rough for a 5k. Compared to a 5k shapton, it's not close in sharpness - it's toothy, but a 5k shapton burnishes to some extent.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I probably know the guy on one of those forums. I'd recommend against any expensive stone for sharpening razors, too. Razor sharpening is a different animal than tool sharpening. I've got an ideal razor routine - one that I think will allow me to use my favorite razor for the rest of my life without it taking on considerable wear, so I'm not in danger of being swayed by Gok mentions - fortunately!

A lot of the new straight razor shavers are hone happy because they haven't yet figured out the subtleties of maintaining a razor without stoning it every couple of weeks, and they're buying razors all the time and have to go through sharpening razors from states of disrepair or poor manufacture. In a good routine with a personal razor, the stone used becomes less important, and how a linen and strop are used becomes more important. It's just a completely different animal, and the finest edges are gained off of cheap pigments - finer than any hone, but they are not the route I go. Thus no danger of spending the money a new shaver might (I have spent many times more already on razor stones, though, so it's not like I'm turning my nose up at spending money - I just have gotten to the point where I'm using a razor and linen that i like and it rarely needs to see stones).

The gok's virtue (having not used it) is probably that it's extremely uniform and very hard, and a hard stone is a very good thing for a razor if the abrasive is synthetic, and generally if it's not. The shapton 30k is also well liked, and probably new shavers have much better luck with it than they do with naturals, too.

I still think, though, that you're not going to find a more user friendly fine stone than the SPs.

I heard the 10k sigma is a little softer and muddy.... ?

[David Weaver]

It might be, I've never used it. The stones all seem to have slightly different personalities (speaking of the stones other than the sintered SPII stones - those are soft like the suehiro rika).

[Chris Griggs]

I heard the 10k sigma is a little softer and muddy.... ?

Yes. Actually there is an older version that I had (Archie has it now), called the Tamago-iro [egg colored stone]...i believe that is also the name of the current 13.

It's not a crazy soft stone, but its pretty soft and muddy, and definitely softer than the current sigma line,,, very smooth. Actually, that might be a really good option for you. It is a 1.2 micron stone and leaves a sorta hazy polish finish. It has a mix of abrasive that breaks down quick and some that doesn't, which is why it gives you the hazy polish (its targeted for knife sharpeners who want that look). Anyway, really nice stone actually, pretty darn fast for a 10k, and leaves a great edge....I probably should have kept it, but at the time wanted to mess with more stuff.

Just ask Stu about the old 10k Tamago-iro...IIRC its pretty inexpensive for a 10k too...though don't remember what I paid for mine.

[Chris Griggs]

It's pretty rough for a 5k. Compared to a 5k shapton, it's not close in sharpness - it's toothy, but a 5k shapton burnishes to some extent.

Agreed. It's a coarse 5k.

[Mel Fulks]

I've noticed some things written by the Brits use the word "soft" to mean "fine grit". That can make some of the references seem contradictory.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I hesitated opening this post because I didn't want to start 'another' stone thread. however I'm really glad I did and you guys have been amazingly helpful. I will post back
with whatever I try\end up with. will contact stu now about the 10K sigma.