Table Saws and more Table Saws

[William C Rogers]

I have got that itch, but not sure to scratch it. I am considering buying a new 3hp cabinet saw with a 50 inch fence. Not sure what is the best and like to get opinions on my thoughts about cabinet saws. I could spend up to $4,000. I don't really want another used saw. The prices seem more than 50% new for anything decent and may have unknown problems.
First, my current saw is a Jet CTAS 10-1 that has served well. This saw still cuts very good an no problems to date. It has a 52 inch Biesemeyer fence and a Excallibur over arm guard. I do have a splitter, but not a riving knife. Since it is 30 years old I should put new bearings in it and get the motor overhauled and new belts. Definitely less than $4K and buy some more really nice blades. I could also see if the **** could be fitted to this saw.
Saw Stop would be my top choice mainly for the added safety. My concerns are false triggers, electronics long term. Also could a new technology come out in a few years making this system obsolete? The Saw Stop gets high quality marks and is comparable in price to a Unisaw or PM.
Laguna 4hp with dovetail system. This saw interest me because of the dovetail mechanism. It also adds 1hp for a more powerful saw. The price is right, well below Saw Stop, Unisaw, and PM. However I can't find much in reviews except the Laguna site and take that with a grain of salt. Any experience?
PM one of the best. Only concern here is the slightly higher price worth it. Does it have features other saws don't? Is the fence very good?
Unisaw, another nice saw. Concern here is the new owner of Delta and support.
Jet JTAS, this saw is priced less than the Saw Stop, Unisaw, and PM. Design seems similar to my current saw. Not sure how good the fence is and surely has had vendor changes and manufacturing changes. Jet makes good tools, but not necessarily the best tools.
Grizzly, a saw for value. Problems have been noted, but seems Grizzly takes care of them.

I realize I will make the final decision, but your opinions are valuable in coming to that point. Where would you spend the money? The Saw Stop is appealing, however I feel with the riving knife and proper push block any saw can be operated safely, just don't have the added protection for the one in a million possibility. Also if anyone has the Laguna, what are your thoughts on that saw.

Edit: I should add that I am just a retired hobbiest.
Thanks,

Bill

[scott spencer]

If I was going to shell out $4k for a cabinet saw, without question I'd get the Saw Stop....the other saws in this price range don't offer any game changing advantages that I'm aware of. If the $4k price tag doesn't make you flinch, I'd doubt the cost of a misfired cartridge would either...I know they happen, but I'm not sure how frequently.

The Griz G1023RL is a heck of a bang for the buck, and has dovetail ways on the arbor carriage like the Laguna. If I wasn't going to spend $4k on a saw, I'd have a tough time justifying spending more than the cost of a Griz. You can get a 5hp G1023RLWX for $1400, then you can slide the rails (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/34563) over for a 36" rip capacity, or could add an extra long front rail. By the time you've sold your Jet, the total cost could be $500-$700, leaving plenty of money for some nice blades for the new saw.

Laguna's customer service reputation is pretty poor...deserved or not, I've read tons of CS complaints from them even though they don't seem to have a huge share of the market.

G1023RL diagram:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/1023gib_zps61cc8414.jpg

[Keith Hankins]

Well, I just made the jump. I had a Griz 1023slx for 10 years and it served me extremely well. I had about 1500 in it and the overarm guard from PSI, and forrest blades. I sold it for 800 and that with proceeds from a project am waiting for my Sawstop ICS 5hp. I wanted the 5hp so had to step up to handle the thicker stock better, but I'm sure the 3hp PCS will do fine. I've been wanting the safety feature and they are very fine tools to boot. If you got the money, IMO it's sawstop. That opinion and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee though. Cheers! :)

[Rod Sheridan]

As much as I like the safety aspect of the SawStop, I would go with a Hammer or MiniMax small slider.

I went that way 4 years ago, you couldn't convince me to go back to a cabinet saw, I would lose too much functionality and capacity in the same footprint..........Rod.

[Michael Yadfar]

I have worked with a saw stop table saw before. Very expensive but it was very good quality and as you said safe. This was in a school shop and it sees frequent use without issues, I believe it's about 6 years old. There's never been any faulty blade drops from humid air or touching plastic or anything. There's actually a switch to turn the safety off if you are cutting wet material

[John TenEyck]

I think the only new cabinet saw I would buy is a SawStop. It's the only one offering anything really new, and it's a big advantage if you ever need it. Otherwise, I would buy an older Uni, PM, General, etc. and put a new high end fence on it and an overhead guard. I have a 1954 Unisaw with a Vega Pro 50" fence and a shop built overhead guard and it's a very nice machine. The advantages of a riving knife over a splitter (of which I have several custom made ones) is not enough to justify buying a new one at 4X or more over the price of an old one, at least to me. The other new option, as mentioned, is a slider. I've never used one but recognize the advantages and would seriously consider one if I had the room.

John

[Rick Potter]

You decide. Just thought I would mention Rockler has the PCS with a free Mobile base or Overarm DC setup again. This is as close to a sale as I have seen. I got one last year.

Rick Potter

[James Baker SD]

Like Rod, I would never give up my slider and go back to the cabinet saw it replaced.

[David Kumm]

I'm an old saw guy by preference but any discussion should differentiate between the sawstop models. The internal build of the ICS is much heavier than the PCS. Other than using the same cartridge I would not consider them comparable. Dave

[Larry Fox]

With others on the slider. With 4-large to spend you are in the range and can get a lot of saw. If you change your mind and are willing to look used you have a lot of options.

[Erik Loza]

William, just my 2-cents: If you decide to pursue a slider, I would make sure it will cut at least 48" through the blade.

Best of luck in your search,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rod Sheridan]

William, just my 2-cents: If you decide to pursue a slider, I would make sure it will cut at least 48" through the blade.

Best of luck in your search,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Agreed, that's a nice size, you get the advantage of a slider with the small footpring and ergonomics of a cabinet saw........Rod.

[Earl Rumans]

If you are going to spend that much money, I would get the SawStop ICS or one of the sliding table saws. The ICS is a much heavier build then the PCS and, I feel, is more saw for your money then the PCS. That's what I wanted when I got my saw but, as just a hobbyist, I couldn't justify spending that much money.

[Michael Yadfar]

Morally wrong? Hardly. It's called protecting and, yes, profiting, from what you spent your R&D $'s on to invent and bring to market.

John

That's definitely true. You are right that without a patent it would have never been created. But then again, the technology could be expanded so much and be used more in the field if other companies were alowed to use it...

[scott spencer]

If you are talking about what I think you are, I definitely agree. I've heard that saw stop has patents on all their safety features to stop the saw, so other companies can't make similar products. I absolutely hate that because that makes them a monopoly on that market, and you don't have much selection. I've heard ideas of other equipment such as miter saws being able to use the saw stop technology, but they can't come out with this stuff because of the patents. I personally find it morally wrong to place a patent on whats essentially a great safety feature, and say other companies can't use it

It's like patenting a blade guard or push stick and saying other companies can't use it...

Protecting his idea with a patent is fine by me, and completely understandable. I suspect what ruffled most folk's tail feathers was a strong arm attempt to have the technology mandated by law.

[Kevin Womer]

I would be happy with my Sawstop PCS if it didn't have the safety brake.

[Patrick Curry]

If you are talking about what I think you are, I definitely agree. I've heard that saw stop has patents on all their safety features to stop the saw, so other companies can't make similar products. I absolutely hate that because that makes them a monopoly on that market, and you don't have much selection. I've heard ideas of other equipment such as miter saws being able to use the saw stop technology, but they can't come out with this stuff because of the patents. I personally find it morally wrong to place a patent on whats essentially a great safety feature, and say other companies can't use it

It's like patenting a blade guard or push stick and saying other companies can't use it...


I imagine the idea here is to "license the technology", once it's mandatory .

[Jim Andrew]

Hammer still has the promotion going on. The 48x48 is 4399. Of course the freight is another approx 350. Without adding any options. Look at the video, when you see what you can do with one, it is hard to resist.

[howard s hanger]

+1 on the Hammer Slider. I love mine. Got a 48 x 31. It's not an off the rack size, I paid for the 48x48 but had them cut it down to fit my shop. It's awesome machine and it's fun to see the reaction on people faces when they see it. Mostly it's scratching their heads in amazement when they see the slider.

[Dale Murray]

I have been researching for a while myself and initially thought the PCS was on par with PM2000 and unisaw. I was wrong. The ICS is comparable and $1000+ more.

I am curious about a slider but know virtually nothing about them. In my case I will need to move the saw on ocassion.

[Andrew Kertesz]

I have to agree with John on the patent issues. No different than the big drug companies having a patent on new drugs and making Billions before they can go generic. Just protecting their investment.

[William C Rogers]

I had considered a slider and previously posted about the benefits of a slider. From that post you can do a lot with a slider and has a real advantage with sheet goods. Many do a lot of solid wood with one but my lack of experience with that type of saw and no way to see one up close I cannot judge how I would like it. I think a slider SCMI or Hammer would also break my budget. I won't purchase until April-May and might see one before then. Many people love their slider, but some don't. I wouldn't take a $4K+ risk without at least seeing one.
Dale, I too thought the PCS was similar to the PM 2000 and the ICS was just larger motor and 3ph. The PCS is similar in weight to the saw I currently have and also a hobbiest it would be hard to justify another $800-1000 when I could get the PM 2000, but giving up the safety of Saw Stop. There are also two models of the PM2000 with about $500 separating them. Not sure I know the difference yet.
Well I guess there are no Laguna saw owners. At $2200 it is somewhere in between the PCS and the PM2000 weight wise. Interesting it has some type of add on slider for $800.

[John Coloccia]

For $4000, I would be looking for a used combo machine....slider/jointer/planer/shaper.

[William C Rogers]

For $4000, I would be looking for a used combo machine....slider/jointer/planer/shaper.

I appreciate the suggestion, however I have a Mini Max FS 35 jointer/planer I bought used. It is a beast. All of my major tools I have been purchased used and I have been very fortunate that I didn't buy something that was a dog. I agree the combo would be nice, but it would have to be used and finding such a machine that hasn't been it a production environment seem slim. I have been looking for about 4 months and the only thing that has come up is a slider that had been in two cabinet shops.

Bill

[Jim Andrew]

You might search sliding table saw on this forum, I found a lot of discussion. Before I ordered the Hammer, I went and watched a guy cut parts on a SCMi saw. It is the full size, and no way I could fit it in my shop without throwing everything else out, but it is cool to see how easy it is to cut out a kitchen. The guy running it said the main reason he likes it is the safety part, no worry about getting hit by a kickback, and no sawdust in his eyes. And the panels are perfectly square. I could hear the scoring saw running, and there was NO chipout.

[Jim German]

I had considered a slider and previously posted about the benefits of a slider. From that post you can do a lot with a slider and has a real advantage with sheet goods. Many do a lot of solid wood with one but my lack of experience with that type of saw and no way to see one up close I cannot judge how I would like it.

I'd poke around a little and see if anyone nearby has one that you could come take a look at and try out. Could ask the Felder folks if there is anyone out your way that might be willing to let you come have a look.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

If you are talking about what I think you are, I definitely agree. I've heard that saw stop has patents on all their safety features to stop the saw, so other companies can't make similar products. I absolutely hate that because that makes them a monopoly on that market, and you don't have much selection. I've heard ideas of other equipment such as miter saws being able to use the saw stop technology, but they can't come out with this stuff because of the patents. I personally find it morally wrong to place a patent on whats essentially a great safety feature, and say other companies can't use it

It's like patenting a blade guard or push stick and saying other companies can't use it...

They could license their technology to other manufacturers. I don't know the financial ramifications of doing--would they make more from the licensing than business they would lose to the manufacturer who licensed their technology?

[Bill Sutherland]

If cutting sheet goods is a consideration, with 4k to spend I'd go for a less expensive cabinet saw and go for the Festool track saw system with the MFT & vacuum. I think you'd end up with a lot more functionality and you'd have the beginnings of all that Festool offers. That being said, I have the Festool system and I'm contemplating getting a Sawstop.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

+1 more for the slider. It is a tool that truly adds something. Any other cabinet saw is just a cabinet saw. Sounds to me like you are agonizing over the inevitable march towards a sawstop though. They are shiney and apparently well loved. They however are no different then your Jet, minus the hot dog thing.

[Evan Patton]

I'm new to the board and getting back into woodworking after a 10 year hiatus and also in the market for a new saw. I've pretty much decided on the SawStop based on fit/finish/features and complementing it with a Festool track saw for sheet goods. While I'm not crazy about SawStop's strong arm lobbying, they do seem to have a good product. Before settling on the SawStop I looked at the Baileigh combo machine which has a router table and small slider. I'd be interested to find out if anyone has experience with similar add-on sliders (I think Grizzly also sells one for around $500).

[William C Rogers]

Slider guys, you are very convincing. I am thinking a SCMI or Hammer is out of reachprice wise. What accessories are necessary with these saws? Not saying off the table, but stretching things. Grizzly does offer a slider GO623x more within reach. It is less expensive, but is it that much less in quality? Would you pass on this saw for a regular premium cabinet saw or feel it is better than just a cabinet saw? What limited (very limited) reviews seem positive. I see you can also add on sliders to a cabinet saw such as the Excallibur sliding attachment, but guessing these don't really simulate a true sliding saw or am I wrong?

Bill

[Bill Sutherland]

I really like my Festool setup and I am contemplating purchasing the Sawstop. With the Festool system I have no need for a slider and I have the full compliment of Festool system.

[Ralph Butts]

Hi Bill, I recently upgraded from a G0623x to a MM S315. I upgraded because I found myself doing more work (sheet goods) that ran up against limitations of the smaller stroke. That being said I really liked the Grizz slider for what it was. While I would hesitate to think of differences in the terms "that much less in quality" let me tell you there are some differences. The kind of differences you would imagine given the difference in retail pricing. Think of the differences in amenities between a 2014 automobile prices at 24k and another "luxury" model priced at 79k. Heated leather seats and mirrors, automated climate control and a v12 are really nice but so is the lesser priced new vehicle maybe just not with the same materials. Maybe the cabin noise is not quite as quiet as the "luxury" vehicle but less expensive car is still a looker and if comfortable and gets you from point A to point B with a bit of style to boot.

If things were different for me I would still be using my Grizz. I really thought it was quite a bit of bang for the buck. It is a value. Mine is now setting in the corner of my shop collecting dust and I really need to find it a new home, but that is another story. I have never owned a Hammer slider so I cannot speak to them, though I own other Hammer equipment that I have a high opinion of. I personally would not pass on the G0623x for a cabinet saw. I am a slider convert if you will because it works for me, not because one size fits all. There are a few members that also have the G0623x and I bet we would all try to answer any specific questions about the saw you may have.

On the subject of the SS technology it's a great consumer choice. My problem with that company is that they are hell bent on making their technology the only option available to consumers by lobbying state legislatures to mandate the use of their patented technology in all table saws manufactured. Of course this is spun to look like it is being done as a safety measure. Who wouldn't want a safer car? Well if it were that simple they would not be trying so hard to hide their efforts from the public. It's legal, it's part of politics but hopefully the free market will prevail whatever the outcome.

With your price range you have some very good choices available to you. There are many, many threads on this site concerning cabinet vs slider saws. Get all the information you can from them and determine for yourself if you would benefit from one or the other. Good luck!

[Keith Hankins]

I ordered the ICS because I wanted the 5hp and that was required to step up to that motor. There are other diff and the weight is about 200lbs (aprox) heavier. You also get more depth. However, that being said the PCS is no slouch, but the ICS is a definate step up but more $$. I will have about 4800 in mine when fully equiped and tricked out. However for 3hp 52" fence and mobile base and over arm DC, the ICS is 4397.

[Keith Hankins]

I really like my Festool setup and I am contemplating purchasing the Sawstop. With the Festool system I have no need for a slider and I have the full compliment of Festool system.

+1 I use that as well. I prefer having the Ply on a sheet of 2" insullation and cut it there with the track rather than horsing it up on a TS.

[David Kumm]

How do you track saw guys square up the panel? Do you make one cut and then use the table saw for the rest? I've never seen ply that didn't need squaring. Dave

[Keith Hankins]

How do you track saw guys square up the panel? Do you make one cut and then use the table saw for the rest? I've never seen ply that didn't need squaring. Dave

I use basic track to break it down and MFT/3 to finish, always been square for me. However, I do not use ply a lot I don't do a lot of cabinet work.

[Bill Sutherland]

It would take me longer to explain the process than it takes me to do it. Basically using my square and measuring diagonals and simply marking and squaring the rail to the edge I can cut the panel in less than 5 minutes once it's on the table. Very fast and very efficient.

[Rick Potter]

I bought a Felder slider a few years back, but kept my old Unisaw. It was a great combo, but there was a problem... me. I was happy with my methods of work (hobby guy), and used the Unisaw much more than the slider. As far as safety, I have a Beisemier splitter on the Uni, and used the plastic blade cover on the Felder, set at 1" high, attached to the riving knife. The extra protection provided by the blade cover always impressed me. Thus, I consider the slider safer, even if you don't do everything on the wagon.

That being said, I bought a DeWalt track saw when they were on sale, and love it, finding myself using the Felder slider even less than before. I decided to get a Saw Stop, keep the Uni for dado's, and sell the Felder. For me, this is a good mix. I am building a knock down, cutting table top which will sit on top of my outfeed table. It will store in very little space, and be easy to use.

Sliders are great, and the Felder was a fantastic machine, but in my situation, not the answer. Your mileage may vary.

Rick Potter

[James Baker SD]

Two comments.

First I had a PM-66 for about 15 years. It had to be on a mobile base due to its 52" fence. When I added an excalibur slider to it, the mobility was pretty much gone. SWMBO was not happy with the car sitting out all the time either. One thing I did not like was that the sliding mechanism was still about 10" from the blade, unlike a true Euro slider. Overall, I simply did not get enough benefit from the excalibur and sold it and restored the PM-66 to its original condition.

Second, there is nothing like seeing a slider in action to help you decide. When I was toying with the idea of selling the PM-66 and getting a slider, I drove 180 miles (each way) to see a FOG member's slider in action for a couple of hours (fortunately my brother lived about 10 miles further so I made double use of the trip). A week later I flew 500 miles to spend a weekend with another slider owner (turns out we were together 30 years ago in the same department at college so we had a lot to talk about). A full weekend of cutting convinced me.

I sold the PM-66, ordered the slider with 39" rip capacity and have no regrets. SWMBO is even happy as the car fits next to the non-mobile slider just fine.

[Evan Patton]

I ordered the ICS because I wanted the 5hp and that was required to step up to that motor.
Keith,
Just curious what drove the desire for 5 HP? I had an old Davis and Wells 12" saw with a 3 HP motor and never came close to slowing it down even with 3" maple. I was even thinking about going the other way--down to a 1.75 HP motor on the SawStop.
Evan

[Kevin Womer]

Keith,
Just curious what drove the desire for 5 HP? I had an old Davis and Wells 12" saw with a 3 HP motor and never came close to slowing it down even with 3" maple. I was even thinking about going the other way--down to a 1.75 HP motor on the SawStop.
Evan

I have to agree with Evan, 5 hp seems overkill, especially with a 10 inch blade which is what Sawstop carries. I would think 5 hp is engineered for all day everyday continuous cutting. I haven't been to a lot of cabinet shops, but I would bet there are more with 3 hp saws than with larger hp saws.

[Craig Hoehn]

I would have to reccomend the sawstop. Even if you took away the brake, its still a better saw than what you are compairing it to. Take a good look at them in person, they have the best dust collection, build quality is excelent, moving and tilting the blade is effortless, solid fence, everything can easily be adjusted to make it perfect and they have the best operating manual to step you through it. That being said mine came perfect out of the box and I didnt need to adjust anything.

[Matt Schenk]

Keith,
Just curious what drove the desire for 5 HP? I had an old Davis and Wells 12" saw with a 3 HP motor and never came close to slowing it down even with 3" maple. I was even thinking about going the other way--down to a 1.75 HP motor on the SawStop.
Evan

Hate to hijack the thread, but do you still have that David & Wells 12" saw? I'm currently restoring one and would love to see yours and hear your thoughts and insights about it.

Sorry, nothing to contribute to the thread; these sliders and high end cabinet saws are way over my head. I'm itching to replace my Craftsman "flex drive" TS with my "new" mid 1950s saw.

[Evan Patton]

Matt,
Unfortunately I no longer have the Davis and Wells saw. It is a sad tale--I moved and didn't have room for it so a friend agreed to store it. Well when I finally moved to a place with the necessary room, the friend tells me that they gave it to their gardener WHO WANTED IT FOR A LAWN ORNAMENT! :eek: (In all fairness he did keep it for me without me asking about it for almost 10 years, so it's hard to be too mad at him). It would have been prohibitive to ship anyway, but it still broke my heart.

Anyway, I came across another one in Oakland on CraigsList. I'll PM you the information and you can follow up. I've decided to go without for the time being, and if I do get a table saw, to get a SawStop.

Evan

[Jim Andrew]

I think the move to a slider requires quite a bit of adjustment on your part as an operator, as you use the sliding table for most operations. If you want to use it like a standard American tablesaw, you might have trouble adjusting to it.
I saw a post on the new Powermatic saw, and notice it has a shroud on the blade, so the dust collection on it would be improved as well. The Hammer has a shroud as well, and comes with a dust connection on the above the table guard. The sales people said it takes a 2" dust hose. And you need an adapter on the cabinet to make a 4" dust hose connect to it. But they say the dust collection works very well. I can't comment on the actual saw, as I'm still waiting. Last week, they said the storm on the east coast had the port backed up, and they have not been able to get their containers to the warehouse.

[William C Rogers]

Well I have decided THE SS PCS 3hp is the way to go. Below are the saws I considered and reason for not choosing them 1. Grizzly G0605X1 (12 inch 5hp). This would have been my second choice as this is a lot of saw for the money. Bigger table and a lot heaver than the SS. But by the time I retooled my saw blades for 12 inches the price would be the same as the PCS. I just don't believe I need a 5hp saw. My current saw is 3hp and haven't needed more power.
2. Grizzly G0623 slider. I am just to unfamiliar with the slider saws to take the leap. I contacted Grizzly (and Hammer) and there is no one in my area with this saw or the 12 inch saw.
3. PM 2000. Probably a little heaver than the PCS, but could not find any in my area to see. Local dealer only orders them.
These saws are just out of my price range. Hammer K3, MiniMax, and SS ICS.

The nearest SS dealer is only 38 miles from me. In this area there is a heavy concentration of cabinet and furniture manufactures. I went there yesterday. The owner of the company spent over an hour with me explaining everything about the SS. He said he has sold over a 140 saws in this area to these manufactures and is aware of many "saves" as he sells the replacement cartridges. I will opt for the mobile base, although not as robust as the ICS base it will serve my purposes as I usually don't move my saw and my current saw does not even have a mobile base. I will use my existing Excallibur overarm shield/dust collection. He has the saws in stock, however I still do not have real electricity and can't use it yet. I will order next week just to get the free base and he will hold it until I am ready. Everyone need to make his own decision on safety as I made my own decision after considering everything I could.

Bill