Why the ill will from so many woodworkers toward the biscuit joiner?

[David Hostetler]

The title is pretty self explanatory, but I have been wondering what it is that so many seem to find so offensive about the biscuit joiner? I haven't used mine a bunch, but when I do, and I take the time to set it up right, it works very well, and makes a strong enough for the project at hand... I know Norm Abram loves the things, heaven knows he seemed like he was a pitch man for the biscuit joiner for years, but on the forums, when biscuit joiners are mentioned the replies, not all of them, but a good number of them can be best described as seething...

So what's your take on the biscuit joiner? Have you used one? What make / model? What problems have you had with yours?

I do admit to having user induced problems (not setting the fence height right, making the cut in the wrong place...), but never any tool induced issues.

[Bruce Page]

There's no ill will from me, I use my PC 557 on every edge joint glue up.

[Don Jarvie]

I use mine all the time to glue up panels. I have a Ryobi that's around 20 years old and still works fine. I got one because of Norm.

[William C Rogers]

I use mine for edge and panel glue ups. Just need to be careful with placement. I also use my router glue line bits sometimes, but biscuits are usually quicker.

[Fred Belknap]

I like biscuits, easy to use, can be adjusted to some extent. It may not be the strongest joint but for many applications it is like you said "good enough".

[Pat Barry]

My one experience with biscuits was that the biscuit joint telegraphed thru the wood to the surface (shrinkage problem or maybe the joint was too close to the surface). I have heard others complain of similar issues and that may be the thing that puts people off. Also, I think the idea of strength of the joint is oversold. They are great for lining things up - ie face frames to cabinets, edge jointed boards for a tabletop glue-up.

[Mark Bolton]

We use one regularly on panel glue ups for alignment. They make a very large panel glue up much easier for one man and result in much less cleanup and flattening keeping boards closer to flush. We occasionally use them as well on cheater bread board edges with pocket screws.

I think the ill will came from the incorrect initial assumption that they in any way added strength to an edge glued situation.

[Ellen Benkin]

I think it is because many people prefer to pay big bucks to Festool for the Domino.

[Larry Browning]

I think that much of the bad mouthing comes from expectations that it would work like a dowel for strength and a full spline for alignment. it is neither. It works quite well for initial face frame and edge joining alignment, but it adds no strength to the joint. Some would say it is a waste of time, when there are other methods/tools that that do a better job. The thing I like about a biscuit joint is that it is so forgiving and that you can just make a pencil mark across both pieces, cut the slot and glue it together. easy peesy.

But, hey, we need to hear from the true biscuit joiner haters now.

[Peter Kelly]

Can't imagine being without my Lamello.

[Rod Sheridan]

I almost never use mine, except for those rare occasions that I need a spline for something like a picture frame.

I agree with Mark, in that people may have assumed you needed them for edge gluing panels, which isn't true from a strength or alignment perspective.

My FIL who is a retired cabinet maker once commented that if you use monkeys to glue up your panels, run a glue joint on the shaper to make alignment perfect, as the biscuit doesn't align as well. His comment was that if you were semi-skilled, you could edge glue panels faster, and more accurately without biscuits, which I have found to be true.

Like anything else, a biscuit joiner isn't the single solution to all needs, and many machines had too little accuracy to be usefull, which is a result of getting what you pay for.

If you bought a Lamello, you were very pleased with the accuracy, something else seemed to be variable in accuracy, sometimes you got a good one, other times there was simply too much play in the mechanism..........Rod.

[Mark Bolton]

if you were semi-skilled, you could edge glue panels faster, and more accurately without biscuits, which I have found to be true.

I have found just the opposite but again so much boils down to work flow and the type of work your doing. More accurately Id agree with but faster I cant see it.

For instance we commonly do almost daily glue ups for anything from bench tops to raised panels. It is far easier for us to simply run a biscuit every 12" or allowing a single guy to glue up a large panel very very quickly (yesterday we did several 26"wx90"l glue ups). The biscuits let the guy move three times as fast because there is no beating boards down flush, no shifting, tapping, no boards scooting/shifting on the glue film, and so on. In the end the boards in the panel are flushed to within 1/32 or better which is reasonably dealt with in the sander.

I agree that an even easier/more accurate solution would be a glue joint on the shaper, which would in fact add strength, but the time and cost of setup unless you had a dedicated machine setup would factor in for us.

For us the biscuits help deal with the stubborn board here and there that may have a slight hook or bow in the tip from stacking and so on.

We dont glue the biscuits either. We center the biscuit, run a bead above and below the biscuit on one board, and go.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I think a lot of it comes from the camp that claims it adds no strength, therefore a useless effort. BUT how can a biscuit NOT add any strength? Just from the additional glue area, it would seem to me that it would add some, but not a LOT of strength. It does have limits, and it's not very accurate, when compared to dowels, tenons and the Festool. But it's not like I really measure 3 times, dry fit 3 times then assemble. I use it for helping in assembly. I have a DeWalt. I like it. IF I could afford a Festool, I would buy one. And yes it's better than a cheapo biscuit jointer. Just my $0.02.

[Mikhail Lermontov]

I'm proud of myself that I never bought any Festool and don't have any plans to buy anything from them. Maybe one day when they come up with something revolutionary for a quoter of the price.
Biscuits are good to build something cheap for a cheap customer in order for him to back for repare.:D
BTW. Anybody tried to build a chair using biscuits only? :D

[Brian J Jenkins]

I have this one:
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW682K-6-5-Plate-Joiner/dp/B00002232S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1393363908&sr=8-2

My only complaint is the dust chute gets clogged up whenever I use the dust bag. But otherwise it's made glue-ups and alignments easier. I'm sure it adds some strength over glue alone (increased surface/gluing area) and I've never had a problem with any telegraphing either. My first project with it was mitering 1x4 clear pine for casing around my windows. Kept the joints tighter than I could have without it.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

I have a Dewalt, but have not used since I got my Domino. But then I do very little case work. Tom

[David Hostetler]

Okay, so from what I am gathering from the replies so far is actually a bit different from what I have noticed in forum discussion before.

#1. There is the "I love them camp".
#2. There is the "They add no strength" camp.
#3. There is the "There are problems with the biscuit joint projecting to the surface" camp.

I know overly simple but go with it okay...

I don't buy the they add no strength thing just on the basis of greater glue surface area exposed. However I wouldn't use biscuits to say build a chair or anything that has to support a good deal of weight, or similar stresses.

I have never experienced the projection issue. I have however seen it in photos, and it always looks like the biscuit is too close to the surface to be used. I would suspect dowels would project too...

As far as the I love them crowd. Welll. I don't hate mine, I don't regret owning it... It's hardly the most expensive model out there, but is sure works well! At least as long as I use it correctly. Seams line up perfectly, and I get good solid glue ups with it... Now if I set it wrong, or don't use it right, that fault is on the craftsman, not the tool...

283305

[Steve Jenkins]

Biscuits were initially designed to join mdf or particle board either edge to edge or edge to face. When used for this they definitely add strength. The glue joint in a well made edge to edge joint in solid wood is already stronger than the wood so the debate on adding strength there is moot.

[Mel Fulks]

I think they are useful in a commercial shop. My theory is that once Lamelo wasn't the only one they lost their panache.
I mean how long can your friends stay impressed by your pocket phone?

[Jeff Duncan]

Okay, so from what I am gathering from the replies so far is actually a bit different from what I have noticed in forum discussion before.

#1. There is the "I love them camp".
#2. There is the "They add no strength" camp.
#3. There is the "There are problems with the biscuit joint projecting to the surface" camp.



#1….love is a strong word….but I do use mine all the time.
#2….way overly simplistic view that does not factor in that there are many uses for the tool.
#3…..if used improperly I'm sure there are plenty of problems one could encounter.

In a shop that does a variety of work there are many uses for a biscuit jointer. That doesn't mean everyone will have a use for one. Someone making only furniture for example may never have a need for one. Whereas many architectural millwork shops will have a dozen of them available. I do a variety of jobs and try to use the best tool for the job at hand. My feeling is as soon as you've ruled out a machine or process for lack of information or understanding, you have now limited yourself.

In a nutshell use what works for you and don't worry about the chatter:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Kevin Womer]

I use mine when the situation dictates, but I would rather have a Domino instead. I just can't justify that much for a tool when I can substitute mortises or dowels. If I thought I would use it all the time I might feel better about plunking down that much cash. I know it's a nice tool in all...I just need to stop before I go ahead and order one.

[Phil Thien]

I agree that they can aid in alignment and properly used add considerable strength (in case goods, for example).

I've made three work/tool benches with nothing but biscuits holding them together (multiple biscuits per joint), I've had no problems with strength.

I think often people compare a biscuited joint to a doweled joint (for example) and rightfully claim the dowel the victor where strength is concerned. But if you're making something like a small tool stand, where you can't put one joint under stress without also putting three or more other joints under stress, biscuits make for projects that are plenty strong.

I'd love a Domino, but for many projects like boxes for cabinets, I think I'd still use my biscuit jointer.

[Rich Riddle]

I don't use a biscuit jointer a lot, but at times it's the correct tool for the job. In the process of a current job, the Porter Cable biscuit jointer works well for alignment of a fireplace mantel's parts. I more or less have a "neutral" opinion of them. If the need for something more elaborate rises, then the mortiser assists with the project. I don't want to learn to dowel and don't want to spend the money to buy a Festool Domino that would rarely get used, so the biscuit jointer fills the need for many projects.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have this one:
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW682K-6-5-Plate-Joiner/dp/B00002232S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1393363908&sr=8-2

My only complaint is the dust chute gets clogged up whenever I use the dust bag. But otherwise it's made glue-ups and alignments easier. I'm sure it adds some strength over glue alone (increased surface/gluing area) and I've never had a problem with any telegraphing either. My first project with it was mitering 1x4 clear pine for casing around my windows. Kept the joints tighter than I could have without it.

Brian

Pop off the dust chute and take a look down there. There is a lawyer inspired casting sticking up to keep you from sticking your finger up into the cutter. I have heard that you can snap these things off with pliers and take a port grinding roll to it and smooth out the flow, and that will be the end of the plugging up problem.

Thats just what I heard .....

I have and use biscuits as a sort of third hand continually, I have two Dewalts and a Lamello that stays in the shop. To me in my own uneducated opinion they are a great tool. Faster than a Domino, cheaper to use and don't cost as much for the cheaper ones like Dewalt. Lamello biscuits are far better, but for most things I use Porter Cable as they have them at my supply house. I use a Domino at times, but for most applications biscuits are just fine.

And that whole makes a joint weaker thing, I call bologna..........

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

Biscuits were initially designed to join mdf or particle board either edge to edge or edge to face. When used for this they definitely add strength. The glue joint in a well made edge to edge joint in solid wood is already stronger than the wood so the debate on adding strength there is moot.


uh....this is pretty much my position. Edge to edge in hardwood, they add no or negative strength, it's a marginal thing, the hole they make means less hardwood glue surface so less strength, but it's a very little hole. I don't use them there but others do and I see no real problem with that if it helps them. When I use them it's almost always for miters or plywood is involved. When I'm making furniture I prefer to skip them for the sake of purity, when I'm making commercial cabinetry I won't hesitate to use them anywhere it helps.

[Larry Edgerton]

I like to use them when gluing up something like drawer stock so I do not have to fiddle with the middle. I usually glue up in the rough [faces]and will quickly lay out where my cuts will be, and put one biscuit in between these marks so they are basically in the middle. It saves me time fiddling with the center, and when I plane I plane the same off of both sides so they are never seen.

Mostly I use them in houses. I have a special setup on one for extension jambs that locates them on the window with the proper reveal, no fasteners used at all. Corners of trim, baseboard butts, sills to sash and so forth. A lot of times I use them just to locate something that would be too hard to hold exactly in place while fastening, the third hand thing.

To each his own, but I do nice work and they help me do it faster. Not that I am fast.........

Larry

[Phil Thien]

To each his own, but I do nice work and they help me do it faster. Not that I am fast.........

Larry

Well if you're using them for jam extensions, you're the kind of guy I'd like to have working on my house.

Though, I'd never be able to afford you.

[Larry Edgerton]

Don't feel bad Phil, I couldn't afford myself either........

Larry

[John Coloccia]

Biscuits were initially designed to join mdf or particle board either edge to edge or edge to face. When used for this they definitely add strength. The glue joint in a well made edge to edge joint in solid wood is already stronger than the wood so the debate on adding strength there is moot.

This rings true to me though I'll have to take your word for it that they were designed for other than solid wood. I've never seen the point for using them in solid wood edge glue-ups. I don't "hate" them. I do think they're old fashioned at this point. If I thought I needed more than an edge to edge joint, I would skip the biscuits and use either dominoes or dowels, some sort of joinery, or maybe even mechanical fasteners with loose dowels for alignment. Honestly, that last one might actually be best of all for composite wood construction, both in terms of strength AND longevity.

[McKay Sleight]

The loose tenon and the biscuit are not the same animal. The biscuit would be ok for non structural and the loose tenon is structural.

[Mark Bolton]

Okay, so from what I am gathering from the replies so far is actually a bit different from what I have noticed in forum discussion before.

#1. There is the "I love them camp".
#2. There is the "They add no strength" camp.
#3. There is the "There are problems with the biscuit joint projecting to the surface" camp.

I know overly simple but go with it okay...

I don't buy the they add no strength thing just on the basis of greater glue surface area exposed. However I wouldn't use biscuits to say build a chair or anything that has to support a good deal of weight, or similar stresses.

I have never experienced the projection issue. I have however seen it in photos, and it always looks like the biscuit is too close to the surface to be used. I would suspect dowels would project too...

As far as the I love them crowd. Welll. I don't hate mine, I don't regret owning it... It's hardly the most expensive model out there, but is sure works well! At least as long as I use it correctly. Seams line up perfectly, and I get good solid glue ups with it... Now if I set it wrong, or don't use it right, that fault is on the craftsman, not the tool...




You can cash in your "add strength" issue other than on an end grain glue up. They add zero strength to a long grain glue up.

[Mark Wooden]

Yeah! Like JeffD said!

Really though, I wouldn't be without one. Makes a lot of tasks easier. As to strength, some years back FWW did a joint strength comparison where they used a porta power hydraulic ram to push the various joints apart. I'll have to find the article, but as I remember, the biscuit joints scored pretty good for strength-surprisingly so in one instance. Not that that is my primary use for them, but they do have that value. And I've never had one telegraph through, good sense has to take over here- don't put them too close to a surface you're going to see.;)

[Pat Barry]

Regarding the telegraphing issue which I have experienced - A cabinet top I was doing was composed of 3/4" thick red oak material. I had just watched an episode of the New Yankee Workshop and liked the idea of the biscuits to help align the planks. I centered the biscuit in the thickness, so recessed approx 3/8". I used standard woodworking glue and glued the whole shooting match together in my basement. After removing the clamps and scraping the glue joints I had proceeded to use ROS to prep the top for finish. I used Minwax oil stain and poly finish (it was 10 yrs ago - now I wouldn't do that). Perhaps it was the clear gloss finish that highlighted the telegraph. Needless to say I was very disappointed. I have never used biscuits since then because of this issue. OK - it was a first experience, but I realized then or shortly after that the biscuits didn't really help as much as hurt - they certainly made no difference in strength for the top I was constructing and the extra work and expense to do the biscuits was a total waste in my mind. Ever since then, and several table tops later, I am totally happy without biscuits. So, why did the biscuits fail me? One answer is I did something wrong - I suppose so, but what? too much glue?, too little glue? biscuits swelled too much? I don't know. I didn't film the whole session to be critiqued later and 10yrs after my memory isn't total recall either. I do know I would never recommend anyone use them for a simple tabletop glue-up.

[Mike Henderson]

Never did use them much. Now, the only thing I use biscuits for is extra strength in certain miter joints (also helps alignment when doing the glue up). For most applications, there are better ways to do the joinery than biscuits.

Someone said they use biscuits when gluing MDF. I've glued a lot of MDF (edge-to-edge) without any "aids" and the glued joint is as strong as the rest of the MDF. When gluing plywood edge-to-edge you need something extra. I haven't tried biscuits since I have a Domino. If you glue plywood edge-to-edge without any "aids" the glue joint will break pretty easy.

Mike

[Bob Wingard]

Biscuits were initially designed to join mdf or particle board either edge to edge or edge to face. When used for this they definitely add strength. The glue joint in a well made edge to edge joint in solid wood is already stronger than the wood so the debate on adding strength there is moot.

I would agree with you wholeheartedly ... EXCEPT ... many of the folks who belittle biscuits, along with those who use them, contend that IF they add any strength, it is unnecessary because of the strength of modern day glues ...THEN ... they go on & on about how wonderful their domino is ... if the joint isn't helped by the addition of a biscuit ... how is it drastically improved by the use of a domino ???

[Bob Wingard]

By definition, a biscuit IS a loose tenon ... however, not all loose tenons are biscuits ...

[Bob Wingard]

My one experience with biscuits was that the biscuit joint telegraphed thru the wood to the surface (shrinkage problem or maybe the joint was too close to the surface). I have heard others complain of similar issues and that may be the thing that puts people off.


Biscuit joining, just like every other method in the shop must be fully understood in order to be of any real benefit. The use of glue on the sides of a biscuit WILL cause the surfaces to swell slightly ... it's HOW you handle that fact that determines your success or failure. IF you sand/scrape/plane those bumps all nice & smooth ... the glue will eventually dry properly, and the swelling will go back down ... BUT ... OH ... it can't because you've already removed it !!! NOW, you have those nice little telltale biscuit shaped dents on your surface.

I would venture to guess that most biscuit haters bought the tool ... tried it a time or two ... expected magic ... got "disillusioned" ... put the joiner back in the box ... discovered the existence of the domino ... ran out & bought one ... can't bring themselves to admit to obtaining very similar results at 6X-8X the cost.

[Mike Henderson]

I would venture to guess that most biscuit haters bought the tool ... tried it a time or two ... expected magic ... got "disillusioned" ... put the joiner back in the box ... discovered the existence of the domino ... ran out & bought one ... can't bring themselves to admit to obtaining very similar results at 6X-8X the cost.
There's a pretty big difference between a biscuit and a Domino. A #20 biscuit is about 2 1/4" long and about 15/16" high. If it was rectangular, the area would be a little over 2 square inches per side, or 4 square inches for both sides. But it's not rectangular but rounded. If we assume that one face is made up of four triangles, each 1 1/8" along the base and 15/32" high, the area of one side would be a bit more than 1 square inch per side, or a bit more than 2 square inches for both sides. So we know the glue surface area of a biscuit is between 2 and 4 square inches - let's call it 3 square inches.

Into the space of one biscuit, I can fit two Dominos. A 10x50 domino is about 15/16" wide and almost 2" long. The area of one face of one domino is about 1.8 square inches or about 3.7 square inches for both sides. So one Domino has more gluing surface than one biscuit.

But I can put two Dominos in the space of one biscuit, giving me a gluing surface of about 7.4 square inches compared to the 3 square inches of the biscuit.

While hard to quantify as to the strength effect, a Domino is also thicker than a biscuit. A biscuit is about 5/32" while a Domino could be either 5/16" (8mm) or 3/8" (10mm).

From this, I'd conclude that a Domino is going to provide a stronger bond than a biscuit.

Mike

[I looked up the equation for the area under an arc (Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_segment)). A more accurate number for the gluing surface area of a #20 biscuit is about 2.7 square inches.]

[Brian W Smith]

I believe some of the "hate" came/comes,from guys who've been in the craft long enough to see gadgetry "lowering" the bar,so to speak.You'll see a rise in handtool use(and abuse,haha)about this time as well.Deep subject that I sort of ignore.....?

They have limited,but sometimes critical applications in a pro shop.A very few places we use them in case work is totally for speed(some say laziness,duh).Where two cabinets come together on an inside corner.And certain head cornices.These are full length library's,not kitchens.It has no bearing on strength......think of them as a "blind",alignment pin.And for us,almost always involves a right angle.

[Curt Harms]

Biscuits were initially designed to join mdf or particle board either edge to edge or edge to face. When used for this they definitely add strength. The glue joint in a well made edge to edge joint in solid wood is already stronger than the wood so the debate on adding strength there is moot.

Exactly. They were designed for use with sheet goods as I understand it. They're also useful to easily and quickly align and reinforce miters. For a while biscuits were touted as the solution to every wood joining problem which they're not.

[Willem Martins]

I purchased a Porter Cable biscuit jointer about 12 years ago and used it once. Never found the need to use it again?

For edge joining boards, I use cauls.

Everything else is proper joinery.

Gives us specific examples where you use yours and perhaps we can compare methods?

[Mel Fulks]

For a while biscuits were touted as the solution to every wood joining problem which they're not. That's true. Once they sold a bunch of them they stopped buying so many ads ,then the rave reviews started to drop off...

[scott spencer]

I have no ill will, but found that I simply don't need biscuits on most glue-ups, and for those that I do use them I can cut the slot with a router. I sold my biscuit cutter and bought something I needed (or wanted more)...can't recall. I've not missed it.

[Chris Friesen]

I have a 557 and the slot it cuts is thick enough that the biscuits have play in their thickness. This didn't seem right, so I had it checked out and PC said it was within spec. Highly annoying, makes it virtually useless for alignment on panel glue-ups.

I do find biscuit joints are nice for stuff like melamine/particleboard/MDF. I don't do a lot of that, but I did use it for some basic closet shelving.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> One answer is I did something wrong - I suppose so, but what?

Let me try to explain. A biscuit is intended to expand when it is moisturized by a water based adhesive. This is what tightens the biscuit in the slot. This expansion pushes the slot wider creating a raised area at the surface of the wood. This raised area will remain and be reduced as all the moisture in the adhesive has fully evaporated and passed thorough the walls of the slot. If one levels the glue line area before the moisture in the adhesive has fully evaporated, the leveling will cut off the top of the raised area. Now when moisture in the biscuit and wall of the slot fully evaporates the swelled area will shrink back to its prior size. This reduction is size pulls the prior swelled area down below the level of the wood surrounding the area of the biscuit. In effect, the outline of the biscuit is sucked down and "telegraphed to the wood surface.

So, how to minimize the problem. First, do not over wet the biscuit or slot. The more adhesive you add, the more the biscuit and wall of the slot will swell. Second, let the biscuit fully dry for at least 5-10 days before attempting any surface leveling. Third, test the area using a flat reference like a square. Only when the surface had shrunk to flatness should you begin any surface flattening.

Finally, a similar problem occurs if you are just edge gluing two boards. The moisture in the glue causes the wetting of the edges of the board which causes the glue joint to swell and rise. Again, if you attempt to flatten the glue joint area before the moisture has fully evaporated, you will remove the raised wood. When the joint fully dries the what would have been the raised area is pulled below the wood beyond the glue line leaving a depression along the length of the glue line.

[Keith Hankins]

I don't have an issue with them. I owned the PC 557 for several years. In my work I don't do a lot cabinets with glued face frames. I found it unnecessary for doing panel glue-ups. Eventually I sold it and bought the domino that was stronger and more like a floating tennon. I sold that and bought a full bore motise & tenon machine. No ill will just don't need em.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I use mine in places where horizontal alignment may need tweaked a little, but vertical is locked solid. There is a bit of movement to be had in assembly if needed in a biscuit joint, none in a domino.

I'm in the same camp as Larry E, although a far less capable and completely amatuer camp, I use mine mainly for trim carpentry stuff, those special situations where wood flooring needs to go and you don't have a tongue/groove in the correct position, etc.

[glenn bradley]

I think that much of the bad mouthing comes from expectations that it would work like a dowel for strength and a full spline for alignment.

Ding, ding, ding. I think Larry has hit on what you are referring to.

[Mike Henderson]

I use mine in places where horizontal alignment may need tweaked a little, but vertical is locked solid. There is a bit of movement to be had in assembly if needed in a biscuit joint, none in a domino.
That's not really true. You can make the mortises a bit wider (it's a selection on the Domino machine) so that you can slide the two pieces horizontally for alignment. Off the top of my head I can't tell you how much.

Mike

[John TenEyck]

I have an old Ryobi and have cut thousands and thousands of joints with it. I've used biscuits for about every application possible, I think. But no, I've never used it to build a chair, nor would I because I recognize it's not the proper tool for every application. But it is a good tool for many. Trim work, case goods, miter joints, it's a long list for me. Accuracy/alignment problems are mostly do to poor set up, not the fault of the tool. It does add strength in some applications. I built my kitchen cabinet drawers out of 5/8" Melamine. The only thing holding them together is biscuits and glue. If they added no strength, they would not even hold together after I unclamped them much less have lasted 20 years against the daily onslaught of my wife. Regular Blum slides, too, not soft close. A couple of those drawers hold about 100 lbs of stuff on 32" slides. Still going strong. I'm not a purist. Any tool that does a good job is fair game for me. I wouldn't use a biscuit joiner to build an 17th century reproduction, but for modern case goods they work well and I use them. I use pocket holes to join face frames, too, and biscuits to align them with the carcase. A double no-no in some quarters. Oh well, works for me.

John

[Steve Rozmiarek]

That's not really true. You can make the mortises a bit wider (it's a selection on the Domino machine) so that you can slide the two pieces horizontally for alignment. Off the top of my head I can't tell you how much.

Mike

Sure, but then its not really a mortise and tenon that is left.

[Mike Henderson]

Sure, but then its not really a mortise and tenon that is left.
Sure it is. But if you want to call it something other than a mortise and tenon, maybe a horizontally adjustable mortise and tenon, that's okay with me. The name change won't affect the strength of the joint or the fact that you can make horizontal adjustments when using Dominos.

And no matter what you call it, the mortise and tenon joint will be stronger than a biscuit joint, given the same number of each (assuming using Dominos). See post 38 in this thread where I do the mathematics.

Mike

[Fred Voorhees]

I have a PC and I love it. I don't buy some of the complaints against them...some I might put a little faith in. I use mine for edge gluing, but my favorite purpose for them is to use them in picture frames...shadow box style which I make lots of. They virtually eliminate any shear at the joint. I have not one day regretted buying mine.

[Pat Barry]

>>>> One answer is I did something wrong - I suppose so, but what?

Let me try to explain. A biscuit is intended to expand when it is moisturized by a water based adhesive. This is what tightens the biscuit in the slot. This expansion pushes the slot wider creating a raised area at the surface of the wood. This raised area will remain and be reduced as all the moisture in the adhesive has fully evaporated and passed thorough the walls of the slot. If one levels the glue line area before the moisture in the adhesive has fully evaporated, the leveling will cut off the top of the raised area. Now when moisture in the biscuit and wall of the slot fully evaporates the swelled area will shrink back to its prior size. This reduction is size pulls the prior swelled area down below the level of the wood surrounding the area of the biscuit. In effect, the outline of the biscuit is sucked down and "telegraphed to the wood surface.

So, how to minimize the problem. First, do not over wet the biscuit or slot. The more adhesive you add, the more the biscuit and wall of the slot will swell. Second, let the biscuit fully dry for at least 5-10 days before attempting any surface leveling. Third, test the area using a flat reference like a square. Only when the surface had shrunk to flatness should you begin any surface flattening.

Finally, a similar problem occurs if you are just edge gluing two boards. The moisture in the glue causes the wetting of the edges of the board which causes the glue joint to swell and rise. Again, if you attempt to flatten the glue joint area before the moisture has fully evaporated, you will remove the raised wood. When the joint fully dries the what would have been the raised area is pulled below the wood beyond the glue line leaving a depression along the length of the glue line.

That's a great explanation Howie. I can see that making very good sense. Probably something learned thru persistence in the old school of hard knocks. If I ever use biscuits for this type of application again I'll hope to remember this.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Sure it is. But if you want to call it something other than a mortise and tenon, maybe a horizontally adjustable mortise and tenon, that's okay with me. The name change won't affect the strength of the joint or the fact that you can make horizontal adjustments when using Dominos.

And no matter what you call it, the mortise and tenon joint will be stronger than a biscuit joint, given the same number of each (assuming using Dominos). See post 38 in this thread where I do the mathematics.

Mike

LOL, I think we ought to come up with a fancy name for it...

You are right Mike, it will be stronger than the biscuit because of glue area. I have both tools though, and personally it I need the side to side give, I'm going to use a biscuit. In a situation like that it's not really being used for strength, just alignment. That extra set of hands basically.

One thing I do like about my biscuit cutter that my domino sucks at is cutting without a vacuum. The makita biscuit cutter will have no problems blowing the chips out, the Domino not really. Sometimes you don't want to lug out the vac.

[Larry Edgerton]

Sure it is. But if you want to call it something other than a mortise and tenon, maybe a horizontally adjustable mortise and tenon, that's okay with me. The name change won't affect the strength of the joint or the fact that you can make horizontal adjustments when using Dominos.

And no matter what you call it, the mortise and tenon joint will be stronger than a biscuit joint, given the same number of each (assuming using Dominos). See post 38 in this thread where I do the mathematics.

Mike I didn't get a manual with mine, how do you make horizontal adjustments.

Larry

[Mike Henderson]

I didn't get a manual with mine, how do you make horizontal adjustments.

Larry
See the picture. On top of the Domino is a selector that gives you three choices for the width of the mortise. Just select the widest one. That one will be wider than the domino itself so it'll give you some side to side adjustment.

When doing a bunch of dominos along a board, Festool suggests that you put the first one in on both boards at the middle width, then put the rest in at the wide width so that if you messed up the alignment of some of the other mortises (board-to-board) you'll have some slop to allow the boards to go together.

You can download the manuals at the Festool site.

Mike

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[Jerry Olexa]

IMHO, nothing better for edge gluing, panel glue ups...The alignment is near foolproof...I have, use regularly and love the PC 557 !!!!

[Mike Henderson]

IMHO, nothing better for edge gluing, panel glue ups...The alignment is near foolproof...I have, use regularly and love the PC 557 !!!!
One thing that convinced me to just glue boards together without biscuits or dominos was an experience a buddy of mine had. He glued a top up with biscuits and made a mistake in placement. When he cut the top to size, he cut right through a biscuit. He had to re-make the top. Now, I just use cauls when doing a panel glue up.

I always figure that if it's possible to make a mistake, I'll eventually make it.

Mike

[Don Huffer]

I'm proud of myself that I never bought any Festool and don't have any plans to buy anything from them. Maybe one day when they come up with something revolutionary for a quoter of the price.
Biscuits are good to build something cheap for a cheap customer in order for him to back for repare.:D
BTW. Anybody tried to build a chair using biscuits only? :D

I believe Fine Woodworking did just that.

[Phil Thien]

I have no ill will, but found that I simply don't need biscuits on most glue-ups, and for those that I do use them I can cut the slot with a router. I sold my biscuit cutter and bought something I needed (or wanted more)...can't recall. I've not missed it.

Well it sounds like you didn't need what you used the sale proceeds for either.

[Phil Thien]

Sure it is. But if you want to call it something other than a mortise and tenon, maybe a horizontally adjustable mortise and tenon, that's okay with me. The name change won't affect the strength of the joint or the fact that you can make horizontal adjustments when using Dominos.

And no matter what you call it, the mortise and tenon joint will be stronger than a biscuit joint, given the same number of each (assuming using Dominos). See post 38 in this thread where I do the mathematics.

Mike

The only exception to your math is that when it comes to cabinet construction, one side of the joint typically allows for limited embedment (5/8" for 3/4" material and even less for 5/8" or 1/2" thick materials).

And that is going to be the weak link, that is where failure will occur. You might find that the wider biscuit distributes forces over a wider area and is at least as strong (possibly stronger) than the Domino in that application.

If someone wants to send me a Domino I'll happily test this.

[Myk Rian]

Mine is a Freud, and I used it to make my SS table. Used about 30 biscuits.

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[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mine is a Freud, and I used it to make my SS table. Used about 30 biscuits.



Myk, that is the classiest scroll saw stand I've ever seen. I like it!

[Curt Harms]

I have a 557 and the slot it cuts is thick enough that the biscuits have play in their thickness. This didn't seem right, so I had it checked out and PC said it was within spec. Highly annoying, makes it virtually useless for alignment on panel glue-ups.

I do find biscuit joints are nice for stuff like melamine/particleboard/MDF. I don't do a lot of that, but I did use it for some basic closet shelving.

What brand biscuits are you using? I've had some in the past that seemed a little undersized. I kinda like the Porter Cable biscuits because the container is resealable so biscuits don't swell when it's humid. I used to live near a place that stocked Lamello in bulk which also fit very well. I've also had user induced oversized slots from moving the machine while plunging. That was mostly a problem when cutting slots in plywood faces resting the fence on the narrow plywood surface. I started clamping a jointed 2 sides 2 X 4 flush with the plywood edge. That gave the cutter fence more to rest on and the tool didn't move when plunged so no more oversized slots.

[Phil Thien]

I have a 557 and the slot it cuts is thick enough that the biscuits have play in their thickness. This didn't seem right, so I had it checked out and PC said it was within spec. Highly annoying, makes it virtually useless for alignment on panel glue-ups.

I do find biscuit joints are nice for stuff like melamine/particleboard/MDF. I don't do a lot of that, but I did use it for some basic closet shelving.

This has been my experience as well. They will never offer a precise, piston fit like some other joinery methods.

I use my biscuit joiner all the time, but I keep the alignment issues in mind.

[Matt Meiser]

When I had a biscuit joiner (because Norm said I should) I found myself using it less and less as I developed my own preferences. Part of the problem is that I found there was enough variation to not get a perfect alignment. Probably a combination of technique, biscuit thickness, and in the machine (PC) itself. I too rarely use alignment aids gluing up panels because I find it it usually doesn't gain me much. Maybe a couple on a large glue up but small panels none. I haven't found anything that I can't do with the Domino that I could do with the biscuit joiner but the converse is not true. I've found that the larger size tenons make suitable replacements for most mortise and tenon joints. The only time I've done a full M&T since is some very large loose tenons on a bed and some very large M&T's on a dining table. Calling the Domino an overpriced biscuit joiner is delusional.

I could care less about following classical technique . I just want to build quality furniture and cabinetry for myself and family. 95% of my joinery is either Dominoes (say 75%) or pocket hole screws (say 20%.) I haven't had a failure yet and I just don't see having one that wouldn't have failed with traditional joinery.

[Phil Thien]

When does the patent on the Domino expire?

I'm waiting for the clones!

[Chris Fournier]

The loose tenon and the biscuit are not the same animal. The biscuit would be ok for non structural and the loose tenon is structural.

I have used biscuits to make dozens of residential doors, usually interior but not exclusivley. Biscuits if laid out and used in the correct number can certainly be structural. Apply sound woodworking practice and you'll be successful. You can lay out two rows or more as the stock thickness permits. Fast, simple glue up and plenty strong. I have done this for almost 20 years now.

For all of the "biscuits add no strength" crowd try this if you have the time and inclination: rip some pine 3/4" by 3" by say 28". Cut two 14" pieces and join them at 90 degrees to make an "L" using one 20 bisuit. I used PVA glue. Let the joint dry and once so try to break it using all of the strength you have - break it like a drumstick or otherwise I suppose. I invited anyone who wanted to to do this in my shop and I have some pretty large friends who love to show off their powers! The piece was never broken.

I have never had a biscuit telegraph, I keep the pocket away from the faces as far as possible.

In my shop I have found biscuits speed up good panel glue ups but I should add that I have never tried out a monkey for this job, one dumb ape is enough in my shop.

The biscuit joiner is not my only option for similar joinery, I have a slot mortiser as well and when it is required I am happy to use it.

[Erik Christensen]

I have a DeWalt - used it all the time with mixed results but enough good ones to keep using it - mostly for alignment and some strength. Bought a domino when they first came out and the biscuit jointer has not been used since. the domino does things no biscuit could do and does so with greater accuracy and speed - and no I don't buy any tool because of what anyone else thinks - I buy tools that work for me. while I admit that there are some domino owners who regret the purchase I'll bet you a beer (and I am more serious about beer than money) that there are fewer unhappy domino owners than there are for pretty any other WW tool you can name. it does get tiring having to listen to folks slam something they have never owned or even used - I bet Ferrari owners feel the same way - funny thing though - firms like porche, ferrari, festool, felder, etc seem to always sell enough of their products to stay in business despite the trash talkers.

[Edward Oleen]

I got the DeWalt DW682 and I love it. True, if you put a biscuit too close to the surface it will "telegraph", so don't put them too close to the surface. I put them in the middle of the wood. Works great. In 3/4" stock no problem at all. In thinner, well... 1/4" is the thinnest it works in, and you do get telegraphing. So wait for the glue to dry and the water to depart - you know - "OUT Damned spot, OUT I say..." Don't finish until the swelling is gone.

Strength? I' ve never done any formal test. I do apply glue throughout the entire surface to be joined, and I use Titebond.
Never had a problem.

Easier than dowels - much easier, MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper than the Festool way.

Of course, I use dovetails as my "goto" joint - I've got a Keller jig I wouldn't be without.

[Cary Falk]

The biscuit jointer has a spot in my shop. I never watched Norm. It has it uses just like any other tool I own. Do I use it on every project? No, the table saw is the only tool I use on every project.

[Chris Fournier]

This has been my experience as well. They will never offer a precise, piston fit like some other joinery methods.

I use my biscuit joiner all the time, but I keep the alignment issues in mind.

This is where most folks simply don't use the machine and the biscuits properly - and then blame the machine.

The slot is fixed and just fine as long as the joiner is not poorly made, truthfully the slot could vary quite a bit given biscuits.

The problem is that the biscuit can be different thicknesses depending on its moisture content but no one pays attention to this.

Cut the slot. Test fit a biscuit. Is it pretty tight - good stuff glue it up. Is it loose? Well just add some moisture to the biscuit, say with a spray bottle, let the biscuit rest a moment and now try it. It will likely fit very nicely with little play. Glue up your work now. Truth be told I'll put biscuits in my mouth as I work to add moisture.

This is simply common sense, applying well known principles to shop practice.

[Phil Thien]

This is where most folks simply don't use the machine and the biscuits properly - and then blame the machine.

The slot is fixed and just fine as long as the joiner is not poorly made, truthfully the slot could vary quite a bit given biscuits.

The problem is that the biscuit can be different thicknesses depending on its moisture content but no one pays attention to this.

Cut the slot. Test fit a biscuit. Is it pretty tight - good stuff glue it up. Is it loose? Well just add some moisture to the biscuit, say with a spray bottle, let the biscuit rest a moment and now try it. It will likely fit very nicely with little play. Glue up your work now. Truth be told I'll put biscuits in my mouth as I work to add moisture.

This is simply common sense, applying well known principles to shop practice.

Yeah, you bring up good points, and I have been known to submerge undersized biscuits in water, let them dry a bit, and then use my newly snugger biscuits.

But I get so little time in the shop these days I really don't want to spend my time there sorting biscuits. And holding biscuits in my mouth isn't going to do it, it isn't unusual for me to use 40-50 biscuits very quickly for a series of glue-ups.

And I'm just going to add that biscuits were better ten years ago. I may order some real Lamellos next time, but I almost always wait too long and then pickup some from Rockler or my local lumber yard and they're sort of crappy.

Oh and I used to be able to get plywood biscuits I think at Menards. Those were awesome. The thickness was not only much more consistent over the batch, but also over the entire area of each biscuit. But they stopped carrying them maybe 3-4 years ago.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

FYI
Woodworker's Supply carries plywood biscuits.

[Chris Fournier]

One other thing I should add for those who say that their biscuit joiner doesn't register surfaces perfectly: make sure that your fence is perfectly parallel to the cutter. Cut a test slot and carefully measure the distance from the slot at both ends and adjust as required. My machine must have be rough handled once and it wouldn't register surfaces propoerly wow was I frustrated. I took a breth and looked the machine over carefully and found that the fence was out of parallel.

I've used tens of thousands of biscuits and man has this inexpensive machine made me money. Sure if the design requires M&T, dovetail etc. and a customer is paying I'll move on up the road but biscuits are an exceptionally useful method of joining pieces in my shop.

[Phil Thien]

I've used tens of thousands of biscuits and man has this inexpensive machine made me money. Sure if the design requires M&T, dovetail etc. and a customer is paying I'll move on up the road but biscuits are an exceptionally useful method of joining pieces in my shop.

Let me put it like this: I think dowels offer slightly better alignment (like I might be able to catch a nail on a biscuited joint, but rarely on a doweled joint), but doweling is significantly slower than biscuiting.

So like you I use my biscuit jointer a ton. Because that slight (what, .001" or .002") misalignment sands flush with my orbital sander in about two seconds, and I'm going to sand it anyhow.

And biscuits are strong. As I've said, I've tested to destruction a bunch of times (projects that didn't turn out, and I was reclaiming materials). Those joints don't come apart without a bit of a fight.

[Chris Friesen]

What brand biscuits are you using? I've had some in the past that seemed a little undersized. I kinda like the Porter Cable biscuits because the container is resealable so biscuits don't swell when it's humid.

I've tried the ones that came with it, as well as some others from LV. They all showed the same problem. The biscuits seem to be reasonably consistent in thickness, so the problem would seem to be either design or implementation of the machine.

As for moving the machine while plunging, I was doing test joints with the stock and the machine both resting on another surface, so there should have been very little accidental movement. (Wasn't relying on the fence at all.)

I'm actually considering having my blade ground a bit thinner at the local sharpening place to counteract the problem...

[Dave Cav]

Coming a little late to the party.

I bought mine about 20 or more years ago, a Freud. Never really did like it, and never did use it much. I don't generally do casework or use sheet goods; mostly I build furniture, and a few years ago got a mortiser and tenoner, and that pretty much took care of things...

[Chris Padilla]

I think most everyone nailed it about biscuits. Every biscuit discussion should start with the materials being joined because that is important in how they can aid a woodworker.

It's already been mentioned that in a long-grain to long-grain hardwood joint, they are useful for alignment (and misalignment if you aren't careful!!) but do not add strength above and beyond that lg-lg situation. Lg-lg is a very strong joint.

I personally think they DO add strength in hardwood to non-hardwood (MDF, particle board, plywood, etc.) and non-hardwood to non-hardwood situations and are still useful for alignment.

Miters are a good off-shoot of this discussion and I ALWAYS introduce a biscuit or a domino or a spline or some kind of loose tenon into that joint and it most certainly adds strength to that joint regardless of the materials being joined.

Biscuits CAN telegraph IF you sand your joint too soon. The reason is that there is a lot of glue moisture that needs to evaporate at the biscuit so the wood can swell. If you sand it too soon, when it dries, you'll have a depression and perhaps be depressed!

Finally, always always ALWAYS test fit your biscuits before you glue. Some are too fat, some are too thin, and some are just right! I call those the Goldilocks biscuits. Fat ones can be squished in a vise, thin ones get tossed.

[Ole Anderson]

I have the DeWalt, but use it less and less. I guess I am too sloppy with it, although I try to be careful. Seems like whenever I cut 5 slots for a glue up, at least one isn't centered in the same edge of board position as the others. I try to hold the plate flush with the face of the board, even squeezing it with my left hand, but I still screw it up. :o Supposedly it is the perfect edge alignment tool, but not for me. And I don't believe it adds any significant strength to a good edge glue job, although I believe there have been tests on that.

[David Hostetler]

On the subject of biscuits. I have been through the Porter Cable and now Ryobi. I could swear the Ryobi are re branded Porter Cable. Toss a desiccant bag into each can and they stay good...

[Alan Wright]

I bought a dewalt biscuit joiner about 15 years ago and used it with "OK" success for 10 years. I bought a Domino about 5 years ago and haven't used the biscuit cutter since. I always found that the biscuits didn't always align the boards flush (presumable because of the lack of consistency in the biscuits). The Domino tennons seem to work perfectly every time. For panel glue ups, I use the smallest Domino tennon they make. They are really small so I don't know how much strength they add. However, for panel glue ups, I'm not looking for strength, I'm looking for an alignment aid, particularly when one of the opposing boards has a slight bow. I understand the cost issue, but IMHO, a domino does a far superior job, and us every bit as fast.

[Glenn Lewis]

I have no ill will. It was one of the first tools I bought when I decided to try my hand at woodworking, but it was always for a quick project where I wasn't using more traditional joinery. I think over the years my pocket screw jig has just replaced the biscuit joiner for most "quick projects". I probably ought to be using it more for some of the large panel glue ups I've done recently, but it's been collecting dust in my shop for so long sometimes I forget it's there.

[Julie Moriarty]

So what's your take on the biscuit joiner? Have you used one? What make / model? What problems have you had with yours?


It has its place. I own a DeWalt and have had it for about fifteen years, give or take. As far as the machine, I find the depth settings are too deep for the respective biscuits. The only problem I've had with the using biscuits is not marking where they are or positioning them properly. Then when profiling the edge or crosscutting they appear. I solved that by planning ahead. :rolleyes:

I could get along without it. But there are times when I'm happy I have it. It's not like the purchase broke the bank, so I have no regrets spending the money on it I did. Now, if I had bought something like a Festool Domino or Mafell Jointer, I'd probably have regrets.

[Edward Oleen]

I find it absolutely great for mitered joints. I put the slot about 1/4" down from the inside edge and it aligns things perfectly. If you absolutely saturate the biscuit with glue of course it will swell up. I don't I just use the glue on the biscuit sparingly, and have no problem. The glue goes on the wood, where it belongs.

You can get the same swell up problem with dowels, for that matter, if you put them too close to the surface. I grew up using dowels. They were great: aligned the joint and provided strength, but using them on mitered joints??? Are you kidding?

I was away from ww for a long while, and when I got back into it there were biscuits. Not quite as strong as dowels, perhaps, and not "traditional", but they worked on mitered joints. P

I think the hate stems from their not being "traditional". Some guys have the same problem with dovetail jigs, especially the Keller jig, which I swear by.

[Larry Edgerton]

. As far as the machine, I find the depth settings are too deep for the respective biscuits. The only problem I've had with the using biscuits is not marking where they are or positioning them properly. .
.

Julie

On trim miters I use a 20 biscuit on 10 setting. Length is not a problem but width needs a bit of attention. I always have a 1" narrow belt at my trim station anyway so I sand off about a light 1/16" from the heavy part of the curve and they fit just fine and hold the trim a little better. Most likely not necessary, but thats one of the things that annoys me as well. You can also use the narrow belt to make an offset biscuit on those occasions where you get the slots just a hair off.

Larry

[Cary Falk]

I just got done building a flag case and used my PC and my mini Ryobi. A dowel or Domino would not have worked.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Got mine as a newbie. By 3d project or so, I had moved on to other joinery techniques. I found that it did not help me in any of the things I did. The key revelation [to which everyone will respond "Well, DUH!!] was that it did nothing to guarantee dead-nuts alignment when gluing up panels. SOld it.

My clamps-and-cauls skills and setup progressed to the point where a couple swipes with a card scraper, or Stanley #80, is all I need for glue joint clean-up.

If I was ever going to do another kitchen, or other built-in cabinets - which I have zero plans to do - I would buy another one to attach face frames.

Other than that, I just don't need one.