Rough Sawn Lumber Break Even Point

[Rich Riddle]

What do you woodworkers think is the break-even point when dealing with rough sawn wood? I spent an entire day yesterday milling some rough sawn wood for a friend that likely was about $150 cheaper than finished cherry and maple. Guess it was an experience, but it didn't seem cost effective in the long run.

[Andy Cree]

Nothing I have yet to do in woodworking has been cost effective :eek:! (Especially when things end up half-finished and in the burn pile...) However, I did buy about 500 board feet of S2S cherry from a guy that saved me tons of time and was for the same price as rough sawn from our local mill. That was a time/effort savings for sure. I would have to give the solid nod finding milled lumber if the cost is right.

Andy

[Judson Green]

Understand your frustration.

For me the equation works a little differently though. The lumber provider I bought most of my lumber from would not flatten (joint) boards before planing to thickness. So I couldn't count on a good yeild. Also the knives in the planers were poorly set. Was just better to do this in house, have more control over the outcome.

[John Lanciani]

... have more control over the outcome.

This is it for me. I can work to maximize my yield and minimize waste by doing it myself. I hate using wood that is 3/4" (or 13/16" if you're lucky) just because that's some industry standard. 4/4 lumber that is thoughtfully processed almost always nets to over 7/8". It's especially important if, like me, you enjoy using wide boards where they're appropriate. a 12" wide board that is truly flat is almost unheard of in a lift of S2S lumber, at least where I buy.

[Phil Thien]

Understand your frustration.

For me the equation works a little differently though. The lumber provider I bought most of my lumber from would not flatten (joint) boards before planing to thickness. So I couldn't count on a good yeild. Also the knives in the planers were poorly set. Was just better to this in house, have more control over the outcome.

My local hardwood supplier is the same deal. They don't have a jointer, but they will plane to thickness. And I see people having them do this all the time.

I asked the owner once what happens to bows and twists and he said, "oh yeah, they'd still be there when we're done."

So I do my own prep out of necessity.

OTOH, I frequently buy roughsawn lumber on craigslist. I figure my savings pay for my time preparing the lumber.

OTOOH, if I had a very large project I'd try to find someone that can deliver nice flat S2S lumber. None of my projects are that enormous.

[Judson Green]

Phil-

Kettle morine?

I'm not giving them a bad rap, KMH provides an great product, just wish they could joint boards.

[Mark Bolton]

I don't really know that any small shop or hobby shop could be profitable surfacing their own material provided there supplier will offer rough surfaced and straight lined material. It's just too many passes through a planer which is more than likely about 10x too small for the job, the quantity of chips, knives, and of course not having a straight line rip saw.

I have a small band mill so we wind up surfacing then straight lining on 9' slider and it's a ton of work but no other option.

Anything purchased is S2S @ 13/16 and straight lined one edge. Not having to deal with the chips alone is worth it.

[Willem Martins]

I only buy S2S if I am desperate and have no other choice. Otherwise everything rough sawn preferred.

Probably my process of building, but once my cut list for a piece is done, everything is sized to within a couple of thousands of on inch and after assembly need minimal finishing prior to spraying the first coat. If I use S2S, I pretty much have to do the same thing, except I end up with thinner boards.

For lathe work, I only joint two sides to get the wood square, then cut to length using the square side as a reference then directly to the lathe. My spindles always end up at least 1/4" thicker than using S2S.

For cabinet work, I joint the edge and one face, to get a perfectly flat board. Then cut to exact length, then through the thickness planer. The result is no bowed boards and exactly the same dimensions. With S2S, the boards are not always straight, the thickness is not accurate and there are normally imperfections that have to be planed out. So the process remains pretty much the same for both.

[Keith Hankins]

See I look at this very differently. To me its not about time or $$. I do not buy lumber in real small amounts either. However, if the mill or supplier has already finished it say to F2S, F3S, or F4S and it's been in his facility then when I move it to mine, it never fails to move on me. It can be small like a twist, cup, or wane. So, I'd prefer to bring it in rough let it set normalize and then start taking it down. I even do that in phases to minimize impact.

Back in my early days before I had tools to do it, I bought from a shop and paid them to mill it but only because I had to. Done it with hand tools and would rather spend that time than have someone chew off a good bit and I still have to deal with it. I remember buying 5/4 to compensate for issues. Thats not real cost effective either. TM2CW

[Rich Riddle]

Ah, this was rough lumber, none cut or ready for use, a 0S.

[lowell holmes]

Houston Hardwoods will mill rough sawn lumber purchased from them while you wait. You can take it to an operator on the floor and he will do it for you as you watch.

They will do 2s1e for a nominal fee. It was 55 cents a board foot. Then all that is left to do is rip it to width.

I use them a lot because of that service.

[Phil Thien]

Phil-

Kettle morine?

I'm not giving them a bad rap, KMH provides an great product, just wish they could joint boards.

Good guess. And I agree w/ you, I'm happy to have them as another source. I'm just surprised at the # of guys I see have KM plane the lumber.

They always offer 13/16, which I also think is odd. Seems like you may as well go right to 3/4", no sense in me bothering with the last 1/16? It isn't going to be enough material for me to remove any problems in the board, I don't think.

But I could be wrong. Maybe they have some sort of double-sided planer that actually gets boards pretty flat? I know there are such beasts out there. So maybe their pro customers have found the service offered by KM to be sufficient.

[Judson Green]

Good guess. And I agree w/ you, I'm happy to have them as another source. I'm just surprised at the # of guys I see have KM plane the lumber.

They always offer 13/16, which I also think is odd. Seems like you may as well go right to 3/4", no sense in me bothering with the last 1/16? It isn't going to be enough material for me to remove any problems in the board, I don't think.

But I could be wrong. Maybe they have some sort of double-sided planer that actually gets boards pretty flat? I know there are such beasts out there. So maybe their pro customers have found the service offered by KM to be sufficient.


Last time I poked my head behind the curtain they had two single sided planers, a straight line rip, jump saw, wide belt sander, huge band saw (with a huge blade in it). I know at one time they had a Oliver jointer (a 16", 166, I think). Many years ago I asked them to flatten a board for me on it said that they only use it for in house things, mantles. I'm sure it still there but I didn't notice it.

[Earl Rumans]

I haven't had much luck getting S4S that I didn't have to work on myself anyway. The surfaces are either not square and parallel, or the board has some cup, or twist, that requires fixing. I just buy rough cut and do it myself anymore.

[nicholas mitchell]

I couldn't imagine not milling my own lumber. Just doesn't seem right to me.

[Rick Gooden]

Flat, straight, square, and parallel. Projects seem to go together a whole lot easier this way. The only way to get it is to do it yourself. Not about time and money, but results.

[Matt Day]

Milling is probably my favorite part of the project! Given that I don't mill hundreds of board feet at once though.

And I do this as a hobby, so there is no break even part.

[Tai Fu]

I buy rough lumber because every finished lumber I buy ends up moving when its been stored for a while.

[Mark Bolton]

See I look at this very differently.

I have no idea if its the case or not but unless you solely do work for yourself or only high end work for pay, it would seem you have to look at it with regards to the $$.

I am honestly not sure anyone buying S2S SLR1E is in any way in heck thinking your getting flat stock, with a clean/glue up ready edge. Having your material pre-surfaced is not like your asking them to deliver finished boards ready for assembly. The material all still has to be edged (a SLR gives nothing near a usable edge) and at the least run through the sander but often a light pass through the planer as well. What rough surfacing (which is what any large mill/yard is going to provide) is a board where the bulk of the work is done for you when it lands at your shop. We dont look for material to land looking like the lumber in the rack at home depot. Our suppliers remove the bulk of the material and give us one reasonably straight edge to start with.

We call out 13/16 because that leaves plenty of material to get a board flat and land at 3/4". Maybe if your yard sucks you'll land at 11/16" in which case I'd switch if you have the option or ask for 7/8" and it may land skip planed. That said, we are also not expecting to be able to buy twist, bow, cup, in #2 common and get flat boards. Most commonly Im ordering #1 common or FAS so nearly every board in a unit is ready to go though with #1 there is still substantial sorting.

As with everything, much of this depends on your work. If your building period reproductions or custom entry doors having ultimate control over your material is much more essential. If your building kitchen cabs, built-in's, one off, furniture items, its far less critical when your parts are being broken down into pretty small parts. If someone is so tight as to be hoping to get 7/8" finished out of material that was milled for 4/4 stock then I dont know that satisfaction would be possible. On our little mill I mill 4/4 cutting dead on the inch which leaves me with 15/16 green. I take great care when sawing so, when dry, boards will clean up to .750 or .800 and thats pushing it. If I wanted 7/8 finished I would mill at 1.125 or if purchasing lumber I'd be buying 5/4. Most big circle and band mills mill in excess of an inch green for 4/4.

We do mostly every day type work and for instance when building cabinet doors or face frames I go straight to the pile, break down and sort for color, boards get ripped to 3/32" over width, run face frames or sticking on shaper in long lengths (8'-10')with a long back fence, cut stiles dead on, rails +3/16" for doors dead on for ff's, cope, and wait for panels. Panels are sorted for color, straight lined again on the slider, and glued (no jointing), then sized and raised. Panel profiles are sanded and door is assembled and through the sander one pass front and back. No planing, no flattening of parts, nothing. Done and ready for boring, final sanding, and finish. If we were to add starting from rough to the process we'd be dead and Id be spending much more time hauling chips and shipping planer knives off for sharpening. But if it were a very high dollar piece that may be the best option.

Perhaps part of the misconception is many are thinking surfaced material is supposed to be "ready to use" rather than just rough surfaced.

Of course on a hobby level the enjoyment of surfacing and using the tools and spending time in the shop is paramount so in that event I'd be surfacing all my own material as well. But I dont have anywhere near the appropriate tooling to be surfacing large quantities of material daily from rough.

[Jim Andrew]

Woodworking is a hobby for me now, so I don't worry about my time. And as I farm, I have access to trees, so bought a small bandmill. I can make my own lumber, dry it, plane it, and have nice flat boards, and lots of firewood. Just need more time.

[Nike Nihiser]

It would appear that it was very cost effective for your friend, because it was your time and equipment. Since it was a friend, I assume you didn't charge him.

[Mike Goetzke]

I'm a serious hobbyist and have an 8" jointer and 15" planer. I did the cabinets for our kitchen. I got a good deal locally on some rough sawn Euro steamed beech and paid for these tools on that one job. But, like others have said now that I somewhat know what I'm doing I enjoy milling my own lumber. Knowing everything is the same thickness and milling lengths close to finished length makes life easier.

Mike

[Troy Turner]

Rich - One of the main reasons I do it is for selection. Round here, unless you want to get it from the BORG, there's a lumber yard that gets "dimensioned" Alder, Ash, Birch, and Red Oak. For what they want a BF for the oak, it comes out to almost half what it would cost me for clear pine at the BORG. Even better, my wife likes the look for alder and it used to only be $2 a bf, but they've recently raised the price to $2.75 :eek: Still cheaper though and I don't mind milling it down.

[Mark Bolton]

I'm a serious hobbyist and have an 8" jointer and 15" planer. I did the cabinets for our kitchen. I got a good deal locally on some rough sawn Euro steamed beech and paid for these tools on that one job. But, like others have said now that I somewhat know what I'm doing I enjoy milling my own lumber. Knowing everything is the same thickness and milling lengths close to finished length makes life easier.

Mike


Wow, thats gotta be one heck of a kitchen!! Considering even an import planer and jointer could cost 1-2K (more for retail) that a serious amount of wood!! Paying about $0.26/BF for rough surfacing here. That would mean we would have to surface 7692 board feet of lumber to pay off $2000.00 worth of tools!

[Dave Lehnert]

Been a long time ago but at the time my Hardwood Dealer only charged $7.00 per 100BF to plane ( lumber purchased from him)
I would have him plane it a little strong and finish plane in my shop.

[Stephen Musial]

I don't really know that any small shop or hobby shop could be profitable surfacing their own material provided there supplier will offer rough surfaced and straight lined material. It's just too many passes through a planer which is more than likely about 10x too small for the job, the quantity of chips, knives, and of course not having a straight line rip saw.



When we charge by the hour :D

[Mike Goetzke]

Wow, thats gotta be one heck of a kitchen!! Considering even an import planer and jointer could cost 1-2K (more for retail) that a serious amount of wood!! Paying about $0.26/BF for rough surfacing here. That would mean we would have to surface 7692 board feet of lumber to pay off $2000.00 worth of tools!

My calculation was based on price paid for finished 2-sides locally versus rough sawn. It was just under $6/bf already milled versus the $1.50/bf I paid for rough sawn. I calculate this as $450 savings per 100/bf. I milled about 400bf --> $1800 savings which paid for my jointer and planer. Here is a link to my kitchen thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196442-Pictures-of-Our-completed-Kitchen&highlight=kitchen


Mike

[lowell holmes]

I guess we are fortunate here in the Gulf Coast area. The three hardwood suppliers I deal with are Clark Hardwood Lumber, Houston Hardwoods, and Mason's Mill. I've never gotten milled wood from them that was not square.

The S2S1E boards from Houston Hardwoods are absolutely square. Framing lumber from the Borgs is another issue.

I only reiterate this in case some in this area are not aware what is available.

[Mark Bolton]

My calculation was based on price paid for finished 2-sides locally versus rough sawn. It was just under $6/bf already milled versus the $1.50/bf I paid for rough sawn. I calculate this as $450 savings per 100/bf. I milled about 400bf --> $1800 savings which paid for my jointer and planer. Here is a link to my kitchen thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196442-Pictures-of-Our-completed-Kitchen&highlight=kitchen


Mike

No offense but seems like a bit of fuzzy math. But 1800 is what it is, free tools are always good. Clear Euro steamed beech 8" and wider around here retails for 3.95/bf rough. Probably less in quantity. I buy american, not steamed, for $0.65/bf.

[Mike Goetzke]

No offense but seems like a bit of fuzzy math. But 1800 is what it is, free tools are always good. Clear Euro steamed beech 8" and wider around here retails for 3.95/bf rough. Probably less in quantity. I buy american, not steamed, for $0.65/bf.

Fuzzy math - you have a better calculator then I :rolleyes:.

So I paid $1.50BF from a guy locally and you can get it for $3.95BF rough. I bought 600bf from him so that's a $1500 savings over your price w/o milling. Who has fuzzy math:D.

I know on this project most of the savings were on the wood but working out of a garage shop I built my cabinets in steps so having a jointer and planer to mill as I went was very convenient. Any yes, free tools are good.


(American ash is around $4/bf rough by me so your $0.65/bf would have justified my tools too. It's a shame all the ash trees in my area were removed due to emerald ash borer.)




Mike

[Lee Reep]

What do you woodworkers think is the break-even point when dealing with rough sawn wood? I spent an entire day yesterday milling some rough sawn wood for a friend that likely was about $150 cheaper than finished cherry and maple. Guess it was an experience, but it didn't seem cost effective in the long run.

Well, it seems pretty cost effective for your friend. :)

My biggest use of rough sawn is for making thick slabs of exotics for gluing up to make segmented cutting boards and platters. I want to have finished stock that is 1 to 1-1/2 inches thick, or more, when done. But when it comes to "regular" projects, I tend to buy already milled lumber to save time, and try not to be so concerned over the extra cost.

[Clay Fails]

I only buy S2S if I am desperate and have no other choice. Otherwise everything rough sawn preferred.

Probably my process of building, but once my cut list for a piece is done, everything is sized to within a couple of thousands of on inch and after assembly need minimal finishing prior to spraying the first coat. If I use S2S, I pretty much have to do the same thing, except I end up with thinner boards.

For lathe work, I only joint two sides to get the wood square, then cut to length using the square side as a reference then directly to the lathe. My spindles always end up at least 1/4" thicker than using S2S.

For cabinet work, I joint the edge and one face, to get a perfectly flat board. Then cut to exact length, then through the thickness planer. The result is no bowed boards and exactly the same dimensions. With S2S, the boards are not always straight, the thickness is not accurate and there are normally imperfections that have to be planed out. So the process remains pretty much the same for both.

I agree with William. I always end up jointing and planning every piece to achieve uniform thickness (and a four square board), so if the purchased board is already 3/4 or just over, it's hard to end up at 3/4 after machining. I always buy rough cut.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I can buy 13/16, one edge straight lined for just a little more than rough so that's the way I go. It gives me enough extra to joint and plane without having to start from scratch.

[Mark Bolton]

Fuzzy math - you have a better calculator then I :rolleyes:.

So I paid $1.50BF from a guy locally and you can get it for $3.95BF rough. I bought 600bf from him so that's a $1500 savings over your price w/o milling. Who has fuzzy math:D.

I know on this project most of the savings were on the wood but working out of a garage shop I built my cabinets in steps so having a jointer and planer to mill as I went was very convenient. Any yes, free tools are good.


(American ash is around $4/bf rough by me so your $0.65/bf would have justified my tools too. It's a shame all the ash trees in my area were removed due to emerald ash borer.)




Mike

I understood your math clearly ;), like I said, I would never question justification for buying tools. I was merely stating that regardless of what one pays for the wood itself its highly unlikely the surfacing costs (if it were available) would ever put a dent in the cost of the equipment and consumables needed to rough surface the single order. Of course the larger the order, the worse the math looks.

I think surfacing and straight lining cost are fairly consistent across the industry but using my local numbers for an example, 600bf of material would cost $156 dollars to rough surface regardless of the cost of the material. For me, my knives cost 80.00 to sharpen plus pickup and delivery or me running them there, 600' of beech, from rough, would wipe out that set of knives. It would take me a few hours to plane the material, it would take me a bit more to straight line it, then clean up the shop, waste, off cuts, chips, and sawdust. Im already in the hole 80 for the knives, perhaps another 20 towards re-sharpening ripping blade, electricity, and perhaps heat if its in the winter. And I earned $156.00 (100 of which is lost immediately in sharpening). This leaves me with 56.00 to cover my shop and my time. This is why even if I had them take the material to 7/8" skipped its a worthwhile investment.

As always, its understood its a hobby vs. having to look at the numbers thing but even the above would surely make sense even to the hobbyist.

I do exactly as you with my Beech. Its was available at an unreasonably low price from a yard that was shutting down and not offering surfacing so I get the material very cheap but it doesnt change the fact that my surfacing costs are astronomical. If I were to gut shot surfacing 600' of material taking me perhaps 4-5 hours and the sharpening I would guess I would have to be up in the $0.80-$1.00/bf range. Still only 500-600 bucks. A long way from 1800 :D but tools are always good!

[Joe Jensen]

As others have said I mill not for savings but to get straight flat stock. Here is my stock prep;
1) cut oversize the pieces I need for the project
2) Face one surface flat on the jointer
3) use the planer to "thickness" the board. If there is a lot of material to remove I try to remove from both sides of the board
4) Use jointer to make one edge straight
5) Finish rip to width
6) Cut one end square
7) cut other end to length

Once you use only flat and straight stock the quality of your work will improve dramatically. Glue ups are no longer a pain. You stop using your belt sander. Everything drops into place and you don't need dramatic clamp pressure.

I won't buy S2S lumber unless it's already really flat (never see this), It's at least 13/16" thick still, or I am completely desperate.

[Mark Bolton]

As others have said I mill not for savings but to get straight flat stock. Here is my stock prep;
1) cut oversize the pieces I need for the project
2) Face one surface flat on the jointer
3) use the planer to "thickness" the board. If there is a lot of material to remove I try to remove from both sides of the board
4) Use jointer to make one edge straight
5) Finish rip to width
6) Cut one end square
7) cut other end to length

Once you use only flat and straight stock the quality of your work will improve dramatically. Glue ups are no longer a pain. You stop using your belt sander. Everything drops into place and you don't need dramatic clamp pressure.

I won't buy S2S lumber unless it's already really flat (never see this), It's at least 13/16" thick still, or I am completely desperate.

About the same routine as anyone, but the simple fact of the matter is your surfacing costs are extremely high which is of course your choice. You could get to the same point with more in your pocket in the long run but using your tools is fun.:)

Unless your buying extremely low grade material (which I highly doubt) that is twisted and cupped to a point where the only way you will barely get to a flat board is to have the entire rough dimension to start with, you can easily flatten nearly any board of reasonable quality with 1/16" to 1/8" over your final desired dimension. We do it routinely with 13/16" material and land at 3/4".

I would completely agree that buying material which is "finish surfaced" to 3/4" (think lumberyard or home center) your dead if its not flat because there simply is no material there to flatten. However if your buying your material from a yard that offers surfacing they will likely surface it to any dimension you ask. 13/16" is very common for a reason. Thats because with decent quality material (you cant apply it to low grade junk) you have plenty of room there to joint one face and thickness on the planer or sander if needed.

Now of course we all come across some juicy material that is heavily cupped or twisted and that material is of course best surfaced in the shop on the jointer then planer.

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with Joe. All of the pre dressed lumber I've seen has been lousy. Couple of times when I have had to use it ,a boss would say "what's all this?," while pointing to cut offs too crooked to stack more than three high, I politely replied: "ITS TOO DAMN CROOKED TO USE!! . Some see cutting efficiently ,and knowing how to straighten lumber as an enjoyable skill.
AND can do it well. I see the main problem as unskilled labor with pocket phones.

[Clay Fails]

I agree with Keith and others. I'd rather spend a bit more time and $ starting with rough cut, even 5/4 as Keith mentioned, to end up with flat, straight, square stock.

[Mark Wooden]

I agree with Joe. All of the pre dressed lumber I've seen has been lousy.......... I see the main problem as unskilled labor with pocket phones.

Ayup, just like he said ;)

[Mark Carlson]

I do what Joe does most of the time. Sometimes I'll go a step further and mill to slightly oversized, sticker for a few days, and then bring the wood to final dimension. I'm not in a production environment and take my time.


As others have said I mill not for savings but to get straight flat stock. Here is my stock prep;
1) cut oversize the pieces I need for the project
2) Face one surface flat on the jointer
3) use the planer to "thickness" the board. If there is a lot of material to remove I try to remove from both sides of the board
4) Use jointer to make one edge straight
5) Finish rip to width
6) Cut one end square
7) cut other end to length

Once you use only flat and straight stock the quality of your work will improve dramatically. Glue ups are no longer a pain. You stop using your belt sander. Everything drops into place and you don't need dramatic clamp pressure.

I won't buy S2S lumber unless it's already really flat (never see this), It's at least 13/16" thick still, or I am completely desperate.

[Mark Bolton]

Some see cutting efficiently ,and knowing how to straighten lumber as an enjoyable skill.

I find it immensely enjoyable, sadly its far from profitable.

[Mike Goetzke]

I do exactly as you with my Beech. Its was available at an unreasonably low price from a yard that was shutting down and not offering surfacing so I get the material very cheap but it doesnt change the fact that my surfacing costs are astronomical. If I were to gut shot surfacing 600' of material taking me perhaps 4-5 hours and the sharpening I would guess I would have to be up in the $0.80-$1.00/bf range. Still only 500-600 bucks. A long way from 1800 :D but tools are always good!

You are unusually lucky paying $0.26/BF to join/plane your lumber to size. In my neck of the woods there are only a few hardwood suppliers that have the equipment to do this and additionally they will only provide the service if you buy the wood from them. So, if you have you own milling equipment available one has the opportunity to save lots of $ if they find material at below market price. If I had a pickup truck and a source to mill my stock for $0.26/BF I would be all over that. But, looks like we are not comparing apples to apples here. Guess milling you own lumber is also dependent on the cost and resources available to have it milled locally.

You are missing a big point I'm trying to make. Having your own equipment gives one the opportunity to buy rough wood at a much reduced price. I don't have the opportunity as you to have it surfaced for almost free.


Mikw

[Alan Bienlein]

At work we only deal with S3S and it comes to us 13/16" thick. We use that for the raised panels of doors and drawer fronts. For the stiles and rails we get material thats already milled to the width we require for the stiles and rails and it also comes to us at 13/16" thickness. Same for face frame material. It comes to us 2" wide x 13/16" thick all in random lengths of 10' to 15' long.

Nothing in our shop touches a jointer unless it's panels that are getting glued up. All stock for door stiles are run thru the shaper in what ever length they come in and then cross cut to length on the jump saw. From there the rails are coped on another shaper. After the panels are glued up without cauls and not even making sure the are perfectly aligned they are run thru the surface planer and then thru the wide belt to bring them to the needed thickness.

At home I buy rough lumber as I don't always know how I will use it as far as what thickness I'll need it to be.

[Mark Bolton]

You are unusually lucky paying $0.26/BF to join/plane your lumber to size. In my neck of the woods there are only a few hardwood suppliers that have the equipment to do this and additionally they will only provide the service if you buy the wood from them. So, if you have you own milling equipment available one has the opportunity to save lots of $ if they find material at below market price. If I had a pickup truck and a source to mill my stock for $0.26/BF I would be all over that. But, looks like we are not comparing apples to apples here. Guess milling you own lumber is also dependent on the cost and resources available to have it milled locally.

You are missing a big point I'm trying to make. Having your own equipment gives one the opportunity to buy rough wood at a much reduced price. I don't have the opportunity as you to have it surfaced for almost free.


Mikw

Mike, I agree that location is everything and quantity is everything but I cant believe Im in a better spot that you are. Looking at your location (chicago) one has to think there has got to be some sources for reasonable materials. Oddly, my state so known for its natural resources is one where you can hardly put your hands on a single one. For instance any stick of KD hardwood that comes to my shop comes from a minimum of 3.5 hours away either via my vendors truck or on a hot-shot load we contract (to the tune of 300 bucks a pop). This of course means at my own expense I try to inventory some material and order a few thousand feet at a time, but none the less Im in less than a prime location.

Regardless, if you even consider your time and tooling (even though you own it), the dollars and cents (or some may say sense) is pretty cut and dry. Even at 3x my cost for surfacing its cost effective to have the material surfaced to +1/8 your final dimension and flatten and finish in your shop.

Alan's point is one where I get a bit greedy in that occasionally you can get some material that will in fact let you land at a full inch clean with careful milling in the shop, but for us at least those times are rare. Commercial mills have sawing down to a science now and they generally leave "just enough" to get their final dimension.

All good conversation..

[Andrew Joiner]

Lot's of good viewpoints in this thread .
I used a jointer and planer to process rough lumber for the first few months of business in my commercial shop . I was young, strong, inexperienced and reluctant to pick up a calculator.
One day I tested a sawn edge vs a jointed edge glue up. The sawn edge was as good as the knife jointed edge, with no possible knife chip outs. S3S was a bit more in cost but when glue joint rip blades got cheaper around 1970 I switched. I was using valuable time and energy feeding heavy lumber thru a jointer and a planer. Even if rough lumber was available free, paying for S3S would be better for the business.

My suppliers had straightoplanes so the stock they delivered was flat and straight. I was in a big city so delivery was free. Any stock that wasn't acceptable was picked up for free and credited to my accounts. The jointer and planer gathered dust. My wallet got fatter every year I was in business. I saved a lot of money/time by always ordering S3S lumber over the years.

When I retired I started woodworking as a hobby. I'm in a small town,no free delivery on hardwood around here. I got an unbelievable deal on some rough exotic slabs. The millwork shop in town quoted me $400 to process a fraction of my exotic slab booty! I had to unlearn my old pro ways. I had no jointer or planer. I learned about sleds on the internet. I bought a planer for $200. Now I straight line rip and flatten with sleds. It's almost as fast as a jointer, but way less work. I have fun doing it and get results good enough for fine furniture.

[Jeff Duncan]

We do it routinely with 13/16" material and land at 3/4".



This is a sentiment I've seen repeatedly through this thread and it makes me wonder….when did "3/4" become the standard thickness and why? I'm not talking about for production furniture, there it's been the norm for a very long time. But here on a forum where I'd have to guess the majority of guys are doing custom work, why would one shoot for something that's so thin instead of maybe trying to keep it a bit more substantial?

FWIW I mill stock from rough and buy surfaced….it depends on the job. If I'm running custom molding, I'll order it in planed and ripped to size….(no sense in ripping either at that point)! If it's cabinet doors I'm milling in house. Cabinet doors/face frames after finish sanding are 13/16"+, not a big difference, but it's noticeable. Passage doors I'll mill from rough as well in order to get the straightest pieces possible. Quality of product is my first priority while the labor costs are secondary. I'm not interested in being the cheapest guy in town, but my quality is going to be there;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I can't get 7/8 from finished lumber. I don't like the look of 3/4.

[Mark Bolton]

This is a sentiment I've seen repeatedly through this thread and it makes me wonder….when did "3/4" become the standard thickness and why? JeffD

While I have no data to back this up, my time in the trade, and being around sawmills a bit, my assumption was that the 3/4" dimension was what was on average achievable when people began to surface material which was always sawn for inch lumber. This holds true for dimensional framing lumber as well. A standard was set at a "2x4". So mills saw'd their lumber at a dimension which yielded a 2" x 4" piece after some air drying. Later in the industrial revolution when surfacing for consistency came along you now had to surface that 2" x 4" piece of wood to a smooth, straight, surface. The thick and thin of circle mills required the 1/2" of material to be planed away to get to a smooth surface. Now however, mills are much less crude, much of it is done with bands, computer optimization, and they can mill to much tighter rough tolerances to get the same yield.

With my little band mill for instance I can overcut any log scale by a large margin because my blade is so thin and I take care in sawing to maximize yield (again because sawing wood is a losing proposition when it comes to profitability).

Again, not coming from any data but just what my assumption has been based on my experience. The mills of today in no way saw a 2x4 at 2.25" x 4.5", Id assume they maximize the last 16th.
I'm not talking about for production furniture, there it's been the norm for a very long time. But here on a forum where I'd have to guess the majority of guys are doing custom work, why would one shoot for something that's so thin instead of maybe trying to keep it a bit more substantial? JeffD

Im not sure I follow. I would think it would all depend on the piece, the demand, the esthetic, strength, needed strength, and so on. No? Why is more substantial inherently good? My thought has always been the more refined something gets the more delicate and thoughtful it becomes. Its like the line I heard in a show about bridge building "Anyone can build a bridge to carry a span, the trick is to build one that can _just_ carry the span". Anyone can stack up boulders with a gap in the middle to span a river but the real magic is the individual who can span that gap effectively while carrying a design load and safety factor with dental floss.

I guess its just different perspectives. I dont see beefy as better. I see beefy as the guy who builds a workbench like my first bench made of multiple layers of 2x4's held together with 3" black drywall screws because he knows nothing of joinery. Now I would opt to build a bench that is beefy enough for the task yet not overbuilt or clunky.

Goes back to our recent exchange about drawer thicknesses. I feel 3/4" looks clunky, you feel 5/8" looks flimsy. Only our customers decide I guess :)


FWIW I mill stock from rough and buy surfaced….it depends on the job. If I'm running custom molding, I'll order it in planed and ripped to size….(no sense in ripping either at that point)! If it's cabinet doors I'm milling in house. Cabinet doors/face frames after finish sanding are 13/16"+, not a big difference, but it's noticeable. Passage doors I'll mill from rough as well in order to get the straightest pieces possible. Quality of product is my first priority while the labor costs are secondary. I'm not interested in being the cheapest guy in town, but my quality is going to be there;) JeffD

I honestly dont think any of us are any different other than trying not to sound snooty in that those who have to compete in a market have to factor in all the costs. I am identical to the hobby guy in some areas taking great pains to surface material. However in other areas there is simply no way I could compete if I had to. Its the same reason you order molding blanks to size. If it were any different you'd simply break the stock down in house but my guess is you couldnt be profitable. Of course in a hobby scenario profitability can be viewed as fungible. My argument has always been that its actually not. Hobbyists are often some of the most frugal, penny pinching, individuals out there. My theory is, if your going to be a penny pincher, pinch EVERY SINGLE PENNY. You dont get so say "oh well, over there, well, uhh, thats ok, cause I really find that fun..." :rolleyes:

[Mark Bolton]

I can't get 7/8 from finished lumber. I don't like the look of 3/4.

Sounds like you need to be buying 5/4 to me :cool:

[John Coloccia]

There's no break even point for me. Whatever dimension I want, I need to buy it oversize, bring it into my shop, and work it down in stages because it wiggles and moves as it comes to EMC and has material removed. If I could get properly dimensioned wood that doesn't move I'd buy it, but it doesn't exist. That being the case, it really doesn't matter if it's rough or surfaced. Either way, the process is exactly the same.

[Larry Edgerton]

I buy in lifts usually, rough, skip planed just to get their dirt off for the most part. I run the jointer, planer and tablesaw with a feed at the same time and it does not take long to get what I need for a project sorted out.

I almost never buy finished hardwood, I like to pick out the wood that I feel will compliment each other. Often I will slap a piece of tape on a particular piece as I process it with a note where it will be used and for what. I enjoy the process, and when it comes time to mill the joinery all that time comes back to me in better fitting joinery.

But hey, I only have to answer to my own worst critic, myself..........

Larry

[John Coloccia]

I buy in lifts usually, rough, skip planed just to get their dirt off for the most part. I run the jointer, planer and tablesaw with a feed at the same time and it does not take long to get what I need for a project sorted out.

I almost never buy finished hardwood, I like to pick out the wood that I feel will compliment each other. Often I will slap a piece of tape on a particular piece as I process it with a note where it will be used and for what. I enjoy the process, and when it comes time to mill the joinery all that time comes back to me in better fitting joinery.

But hey, I only have to answer to my own worst critic, myself..........

Larry

When I bring my wood home, I have one of those crayons that I mark the intended use on each piece. It's amazing how easy it is to buy a piece of wood and then forget why the heck I bought it in the first place. It's not uncommon for wood to sit years in my shop until I get around to using it :)

[Mark Bolton]

I buy in lifts usually, rough, skip planed just to get their dirt off for the most part. I run the jointer, planer and tablesaw with a feed at the same time and it does not take long to get what I need for a project sorted out.

I almost never buy finished hardwood, I like to pick out the wood that I feel will compliment each other. Often I will slap a piece of tape on a particular piece as I process it with a note where it will be used and for what. I enjoy the process, and when it comes time to mill the joinery all that time comes back to me in better fitting joinery.

But hey, I only have to answer to my own worst critic, myself..........

Larry

I have no first hand experience but I can only assume we all do this. I have a large lift in my stock room that is all material Ive pulled out of normal production. Bunches and bunches of figured maple that came out of #2 common drawer material, tons of super curly crotch figured woods and end cuts perhaps 2-4 feet long that I simply couldnt turn into trim, and so on. Its a real reward to toss a piece of this in on a job where a customer appreciates it and doesnt expect it.

[Andrew Joiner]

I have no first hand experience but I can only assume we all do this. I have a large lift in my stock room that is all material Ive pulled out of normal production. Bunches and bunches of figured maple that came out of #2 common drawer material, tons of super curly crotch figured woods and end cuts perhaps 2-4 feet long that I simply couldnt turn into trim, and so on. Its a real reward to toss a piece of this in on a job where a customer appreciates it and doesnt expect it.
Mark, Isn't that a cool feeling when you find something like that in a load of lumber? Kinda like getting a rare coin in change on an everyday transaction. I had a room full of figured stuff I pulled over the years. I sold it cheap when I thought I was done woodworking. Sad, but deals come and go.

[J.R. Rutter]

I buy lumber hit and miss planed to 15/16 whenever possible, unless it is a special piece for a super custom project. It reveals the grain and color, as well as most defects. Most large operations have a decent double sided planer that can at least approximate jointing and planing (though for long boards, who are we kidding?). It allows the board to move a little bit after the surface of each face is removed. No matter how well you joint and plane, the wood will tend to move in this same direction, so better to find out ahead of time what it will want to do. It is often possible to glue up panels at this full thickness and plane down to 13/16 - 7/8 afterwards, and the resulting panel has a better chance of staying flat because you are forced to use flat stock. I could go on. I sometimes get a shipment of full rough lumber, and we can deal with it fairly quickly, but it never pencils out as a cost savings.

[Tony Leonard]

I like to buy S2S that is thick enough for me to finish milling. i have a small shop and dealing with rough lumber is a pain. I just cleaned up two tiger maple boards this weekend that took way more time than I wanted to spend on them. Plus, it is very hard to see what you have or are getting when the lumber is still rough. I used to be able to buy S2S local that was pretty flat and would finish out nicely. I only have a 6" jointer too, so that is pretty limiting. So, for me, it is worth paying a little extra for S2S assuming there is enough meat left for final milling. My shop time is prety limited, so I'd much rather build furniture than mill lumber. Then there is the splinters! But yeah, to me, S2S just means it is cleaned up enough for me to see what I have and finish milling without too many steps. The rough maple I worked on this weekend only yielded about 1" for one peice and under 1" for the other out of 5/4 stock. I did a lot of hand planing to remove most of the twist before I headed to the noise makers.

Tony

[Chris Friesen]

This is a sentiment I've seen repeatedly through this thread and it makes me wonder….when did "3/4" become the standard thickness and why? I'm not talking about for production furniture, there it's been the norm for a very long time. But here on a forum where I'd have to guess the majority of guys are doing custom work, why would one shoot for something that's so thin instead of maybe trying to keep it a bit more substantial?

Or the other way round...if you want 3/8 finished you're better off starting with 5/4 or even 6/4 and you might be able to resaw several thicknesses of it, getting matching boards.

James Krenov was all about just eyeballing things with no measurements. So this part wants to be "about this thick", and that part should be "roughly this thick", and he just milled it to whatever size he felt looked right.

If you start with 3/4" or 13/16" then there's going to be a tendency to design things in that size...

[Jerry Olexa]

Milling your own brings a certain satisfaction BUT it is very time consuming...I do enjoy getting a beautful piece of milled, flat stock out of a rough slab..Its a matter of your time, values and preferences...

[Jeff Duncan]

Mark, Isn't that a cool feeling when you find something like that in a load of lumber? Kinda like getting a rare coin in change on an everyday transaction. I had a room full of figured stuff I pulled over the years. I sold it cheap when I thought I was done woodworking. Sad, but deals come and go.

Reminds me of a time when I was first starting out in cabinet work. I was still doing mostly sanding and we got in 5K lf of maple crown molding. We had to hand sand every last foot of it before it went to finish. Reason I remember it was b/c there was tons of beautiful birds eye pattern in that molding, (not called for mind you, just by chance), and I remember thinking what a waste! I figure there's a pretty good chance that stuff is in a landfill somewhere by now….gotta love commercial work:(

JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

Reminds me of a time when I was first starting out in cabinet work. I was still doing mostly sanding and we got in 5K lf of maple crown molding. We had to hand sand every last foot of it before it went to finish. Reason I remember it was b/c there was tons of beautiful birds eye pattern in that molding, (not called for mind you, just by chance), and I remember thinking what a waste! I figure there's a pretty good chance that stuff is in a landfill somewhere by now….gotta love commercial work:(

JeffD

Very true. And to Andrew yes, I do enjoy that. Its one of the bonus' of being a smaller shop in my opinion. Most of this stuff comes in exactly as Jeff mentions, in units of bread and butter material. In a larger shop it would never pay to cull it out for good. It would wind up on the back of a drawer somewhere never to be seen again. Of course Jeff mentions Maple and that is a large percentage of the cull I have set aside simply because maple just tends to be that way a little bit in almost every tree.

I have to say though, in this last big job I got some wide ends in red oak that were super curly, crotch, that were unrealy pretty and so tight grained and hard. Man, it was pretty stuff. Ive used most of it up on other stuff as accents. I hate oak but man this stuff was pretty.

[Mel Fulks]

Always enjoyoyable to give high grade wood for regular price. Just hard to make money that way since speed doesn't HELP
in that situation.

[Cary Falk]

I buy rough sawn for control not cost.

[Rich Riddle]

Well you folks certainly made me reconsider the cost/benefit factor with rough cut wood. One must admit the wood we milled looks better than the wood for sale in many stores. It's down to S3S so he can cut the width to dimensions when he starts making the cabinets.

[Jay Park]

I buy rough sawn for control not cost.

I'm a beginner, but same here. Although one problem w/ rough sawn is the grain in near impossible to see w/ the saw marks.