Sliding table saw

[Paul Incognito]

Hi all,
I'm in the market for a slider. I don't need the capacity to rip plywood sheets (and don't have the space for it), but 4' would be nice so I can cross cut them.
I'm definitely going used for this, as my budget won't allow anything new.
My question: Should I be looking for a Euro machine or old American iron? Is there a distinct difference between the two?
For the record, I do like American iron, and I think the old Oliver, Greenlee, Tanny, etc are awesome machines. The problem I've seen is that it's hard to find one that's complete. Oh, BTW 3 phase isn't a problem.
Anyhow, any input would be appreciated.
TIA,
PI

[Loren Woirhaye]

I don't think old American ones can crosscut 4' generally. They weren't made for working in plywood. Not even the Northfield will do it. The saw alone weighs nearly a ton. One option is a vintage Wadkin dimension saw.

Other than that, you're looking at sliders from Europe. If you want to buy new maybe an Asian one will work for you. The format sliders are tricky to make well and I've seen not much enthusiasm for preferring Asian sliders compared to Italian and German ones. I'm sure the Asian machines are improving generally though.

[Brian Ross]

Keep an eye on Woodweb as occasionally the smaller European ones do appear.

Brian

[David Kumm]

Generally the old US iron crosscut 32-36" except for the Oliver DX or similar which were huge. Euro sliders used are cheap is you watch. SCMI WA 16, Holz her, Casadei, even Altendorf can be had in the 3-6K range.283135283136Whitney is old iron and the SCMI is a 10' slider. Dave

[Judson Green]

Had a Tanny years ago with a rolling table. The table needed work, but do to the small capacity, easily matched by a sled, I never bother to get it fixed. Also had a 1⅛" arbor. Not a huge deal but kinda a bother. Ive worked on SCMI and altendorf, much better saws for breaking down sheet goods. I'd suggest you find one with a scoring blade, but one that can be easy lowered out of the way. On the other hand I cut up all my sheet goods on that saw (Tanny) and never really had any problems blowing out the back side of plywood, unless it was cheep stuff.

Had high hopes for that saw but in hind sight I should have just got another 10". My shop wasn't big enough (not enough clear span) to accommodate a real slider.

283142 283143

Oh you'll notice the slightly custom Biesemeyer, had to accommodate for the rolling table. Its only money.

[Rich Riddle]

Paul,

You are about fifteen minutes from Hammer/Felder in Delaware. Go by the showroom to get an idea about sliders. I purchased the Hammer K3 Winner and enjoy using it. It can cut the four feet you mentioned. I don't need it sliding longer than that. Good luck.

[ed vitanovec]

I have the Grizzly G0623X and have been real happy with it, there is a smaller version G0700 which is nice too.

[Loren Woirhaye]

My little slider only does about 36". For pantry sides and full sheet cuts I built a european style vertical panel saw. It's not perfect but it's better for cabinet work than any lumberyard style panel saw. I owned 3 other panel saws before and had spent a lot of time thinking about what annoyed me about them. The EZ smart track saw system is not too expensive and does a good job. While I totally recommend getting a slider, if you don't have the space for a full size one you're going to want a track saw sooner or later anyway.

[Ruhi Arslan]

They do not have a "showroom" as one might expect. If they happen to have one which they are preparing to send it to a customer or if they have one in for repair, then it would be available for a prospective buyer to see it. Otherwise, no such a thing as a "showroom". Above is based on my limited one purchase experience.

[johnny means]

They do not have a "showroom" as one might expect. If they happen to have one which they are preparing to send it to a customer or if they have one in for repair, then it would be available for a prospective buyer to see it. Otherwise, no such a thing as a "showroom". Above is based on my limited one purchase experience.

Actually, Felder does have a real showroom in DE now. I live within walking distance and stop in when I need new tooling and parts. They expanded they're space and created a dedicated showroom last year. You can go there and see their cnc in action as well as their edgebanders and milling/sawing machines.

[Paul Incognito]

Thanks for all the insights guys.
Sounds like I want a small Euro slider.
I do have a Festool track saw, so I have that covered. I generally don't use it for breaking down full sheets, though. I'm more comfortable doing that on the table saw. Maybe 4' is a bit much, I really want it to cut cabinet parts to length, like 2' base cab sides and such. That's a pain with the track saw and the table saw I have (a General 350) isn't the best for that due to space constraints where it sits. That and the fence which doesn't come off its rails.
I've been to the Felder store, it was a couple of years ago. The machines they had set up there at the time were quite impressive, and quite expensive. The salesman didn't want to let me leave untill I bought something...Kind of turned me off.
Thanks again, and any more insights are welcome.
PI

[David Kumm]

SCMI made a 60" or close slider- SI 12 that was a nice machine. They seem to go for 2500-3500 now. Griggio made a similar machine. A table that can crosscut 60x60 baltic birch is pretty handy. Dave

[Loren Woirhaye]

The Robland/Powermatic short stroke sliders are out there on the market.

When I was looking for a used compact slider I looked at a Rojek, tried to make a deal on a Robland 3 phase short stroke (60" or thereabouts), and finally acquired a Felder short stroke from a well educated person with a solid career in a phd-oriented field who was tired of groin shots from the miter fence on the 8 ft.+ cross dimension of a small slider with 52" stops on both sides of the blade.

[Bill Neely]

About 7 years ago I bought a used Laguna TSS with scoring (48") and I've been very happy with it. After having it for a few years I've found all sorts of ways to use it that I hadn't imagined before getting a slider. If I had the extra cash I'd probably buy a new Hammer with the 79" table.

[Rich Riddle]

They do not have a "showroom" as one might expect. If they happen to have one which they are preparing to send it to a customer or if they have one in for repair, then it would be available for a prospective buyer to see it. Otherwise, no such a thing as a "showroom". Above is based on my limited one purchase experience.

Unless they closed it since I purchase a slider last year, they most certainly have a showroom. The have photographs of it in many of their pictures as well. Perhaps you should visit the place and ask to see it. Read the last two sentences under the Delaware location in this link for information:

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/events.html

[Paul Incognito]

Thanks again for the input.
Anyone else out there with an old American iron saw want to chime in?
Right now there's an Oliver on clist that's pretty local. I sent an email but haven't heard anything back yet. No Euro saws right now, but I check pretty regularly.
I'll have to get back to the Felder store. Can't hurt to take a look. Famous last words, I know.
PI

[Paul Incognito]

Generally the old US iron crosscut 32-36" except for the Oliver DX or similar which were huge. Euro sliders used are cheap is you watch. SCMI WA 16, Holz her, Casadei, even Altendorf can be had in the 3-6K range.283135283136Whitney is old iron and the SCMI is a 10' slider. Dave
David, thanks for the pics. That Whitney is nice! Did you restore it? Is it a tilt table or tilting arbor? I'd love to hear more about that machine.
Thanks,
PI

[Al Bacon]

I have the Grizzly G0623X and have been real happy with it, there is a smaller version G0700 which is nice too.

I have the G0700 in a small shop and I am very happy with it.
It dos not have a long slider but works well for cutting plywood for cabinets.

[David Kumm]

David, thanks for the pics. That Whitney is nice! Did you restore it? Is it a tilt table or tilting arbor? I'd love to hear more about that machine.
Thanks,
PI
Whitney 77 is a tilting arbor, made 1932. 4 hp but I can't bog it down. Crosscuts 32 but can be modified to cut 36". Table slides out 2 1/2" to allow for dados. The later models were 177 and only a handful of sliders are known ro exist. This one was going to scrap but in good condition. Have about 1000-1200 in it.283174283175283176 It's mainly a furniture saw as are most old iron sliders. Not really a panel cutter. The sliding table locks easily so the saw is a traditional with a slider available. Great second saw with a larger panel saw. Dave

[Ruhi Arslan]

Unless they closed it since I purchase a slider last year, they most certainly have a showroom. The have photographs of it in many of their pictures as well. Perhaps you should visit the place and ask to see it.
Perhaps, I shall. I should have said "purchased a couple of years ago". Apparently, they have added the "showroom" last year (as per Johnny Means). Good to know. There is nothing like seeing the machinery in real, touching, walking around to see in greater detail before making an informed decision.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Paul, I bought a Hammer B3 Winner with outrigger for my small basement shop.

It has a 49 inch crosscut capacity, with scoring saw and dado capability.

The outrigger removes in about 2 minutes without tools, making it a compact saw when I'm not using it to break down sheet goods or saw panels.

You will be best served by a small Euro slider, have a look at the various manufacturers.

Since you live not far from Felder, that would be a no brainer for me.

I've owned my saw/shaper for 4 years now, and would never go back to a cabinet saw ( I had a General 650).

Regards, Rod.

[Larry Fox]

SCMI made a 60" or close slider- SI 12 that was a nice machine. They seem to go for 2500-3500 now. Griggio made a similar machine. A table that can crosscut 60x60 baltic birch is pretty handy. Dave

I have one of these in (SI-12) my shop and you are correct, it is indeed a nice machine. There are times - somewhat infrequently, but sometimes - when I would like to have a longer slide capacity but I don't have the room. If you are looking for a very beefy slider but don't have the room for one of the 10' ones I recommend looking for one of these. Mine has a scoring attachment (which I don't use much) and can accept a dado. We are not far away (I am in Chester County PA) so you are welcome to come out and have a look at it in action if you like. PM me if interested. I came out of a Unisaw and at this point it would be hard for me to return to a cabinet saw.

[Erik Loza]

Paul, you said that you can't afford new, which is fine, but what is your actual budget? Just curious. Suggestions here are all over the board, price-wise, and often, refurbing an old machine will end up costing you more then buying new. I think that would help narrow your decision down.

Best,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Frank Ashmore]

Have you considered an add on slider to your tablesaw.I have an excalibur sliding table added to my unisaw .Its dead on accurate and can 45* a sheet of plywood .Has 60" crosscut cap.

[Jim Andrew]

I could wait for the rest of my life for a slider to come up for sale close enough to drive and pick it up. And traveling across a couple states runs into money as well. So I would just bite the bullet and get a new one. On sale of course. All my machines have been bought on end of year sales. Except for the drill press I picked up used. Where I live, 12" jointers, table saws with 48" rip capacity, wide belt sanders and such just are not for sale often. Let alone a MM16. The nearest I have seen one of those was about 4 hours away and on an auction. Heard it brought near new price.

[Loren Woirhaye]

You could look for an older Roband style combo table saw/shaper. The machines were certainly built to hit a reasonable price point and are not as nice as modern format sliders but they still work. I think they will do a 4' crosscut.

[Paul Incognito]

Rod, I'm going to stop in at Felder the next chance I get, hopefully this week. I think anything new is going to be out of my price range though.

Eric, I'm looking to spend no more than $3,000 on the saw. I've seen a few on clist for around that. In fact, there's a couple of old iron saws right now for around $2500.

Frank, That's an option that I considered, but with the way my shop is arranged, it doesn't really work for me. And I'd want to get a new fence, too. The one on my saw doesn't come off the rails, and is in the way for any long cross cuts. The slider would live in a different part of the shop where there's more room.

Jim, I haven't had any trouble finding used equipment here. I've equipped mostly my whole shop from craigslist and the classifieds on forums like this. In fact, my jointer and table saw came from Creekers.

Larry, Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it. I'm going to look at an Oliver and Greenlee this weekend. They're a couple hours from me. Hopefully I'm not wasting my time.
I don't see Euro machines come up as often, but I have seen them. Maybe I just need to be more patient.

Thanks again for all the feedback. It's been very helpful.

Paul

[Paul Incognito]

David, Thanks for the info on the Whitney. It's a really nice looking saw. I understand what you mean about it being a furniture saw and not a panel saw. I think thet's true of all the old iron sliders. But there's something about them that just draws me in.

And I just did a quick search for the SCMI SI-12 and found a youtube video. That's a really nice saw.

Paul

[David Kumm]

Oliver should be a 270, 260, or 88 if sliders. greenlee would be a 495s. Greenlee are pretty rare and if in good condition they are very well thought of. Very heavy castings. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

Paul

I see one of these come up once in a while cheap. Just saw one go on Craigs list for $1800.

minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=220&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35

I have one that is about twenty years old that I bought new and have worked hard. It has paid for itself many many times over and has been flawless, just burnt out the first bearing, but I was sawing at -10 degrees, my fault.

[Paul Incognito]

Thanks Larry, that looks like another winner. After 20 years it sounds like it doesn't owe you a dime!

David, the Oliver is a 260 D. No model listed for the Greenlee, but it is a slider. Having used both old iron and new(er?) Euro saws, which would you recommend? I gotta say, the Euro saws look pretty sweet, but the old iron just has something about it. I'm having a tough time.
Thanks,
Paul

[David Kumm]

260 is a big saw with two blades on a rotating disk. When the blade and arbor are rotated to the top position contacts hit to engage the single starter that supplies both motors separately. fairly complicated and you need to be sure the machines is working. Great machine but not for the faint hearted when it comes to repair. Greenlee is much simpler with one motor. I like old iron and as much as I like my Whitney ( I have three ) I would have a Euro slider first. the newer table design and bearing adjustments make for a tighter table for panels. I move my machines around so the heavier the build the better mine keep their settings. A panel saw that doesn't keep it's settings after you drop a too heavy piece on it is worse than none at all. Dave

[Paul Incognito]

Yea, you pretty much nailed my thoughts on the 260. Twice the headaches when something goes wrong.
Thanks for your input,
Paul

[Frank Drew]

Paul,

My last saw was an Ulmia 1711, which gave me 53" crosscut and about 40" from blade to fence. I don't think they turn up that often in the U.S. used market, and they were pricey when new, but I liked that saw a lot, and it was pretty much perfect for my needs making custom furniture with the occasional sheet good to handle.

[Paul Incognito]

So far I've heard from many who love their saws. It's great to get a list together of what to be looking for, thanks.
Anyone have any machines I should stay away from? Any duds out there? I was reading an old thread that mentions that not all of the Euro saws have trunions in the way we know them. Any problems there? Again, anything I should stay away from?
Thanks,
Paul

[Erik Loza]

Paul, there are a great many Euro saws out there that use a pillow-block style arrangement for the saw unit. In fact, one of the sturdiest saws of all time, the Robland Z3200, is built like this. Not a knock, as far as I am concerned.

My advice would be that whatever you decide to buy, make sure it will cut at least 48" through the main blade (a few "stop" right at 48", leaving your panel in the middle of the blade...).

Best,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Paul Incognito]

Thanks Eric, That's very helpful.
I'm going to look at a SCMI SI-16 on Friday. Wat more saw than I was looking for, but the price is reasonable and I have the space.
Anything specific I should look for on this saw? Anyone have experience with it?
Thanks for all the help, I'm going into this purchase with confidence because of it.
Paul

[Larry Edgerton]

Paul

There is a Tekna slider/shaper combination in the Grand Rapids Mi. Craigslist. I talked to the old guy that is selling/retireing and it is a company that is out of business now, Italian, and will rip 8' goods on the slider. I did a brief search and did not find anything on that brand so I did not have him send me any pictures. He bought it brand new about ten years ago, asking $2700. Said both saw and shaper work well.

Maybe one of the other guys on here knows something about them.

Larry

[Loren Woirhaye]

Tekna is a line from SCM I think.

Maybe Lazzarri http://www.gregmach.com/Machinery/Saws/Panel/LazzariTekna.html

[Paul Incognito]

Thanks Larry and Loren,
That is a lot of saw for a good price, but I'm trying to stay fairly local with this purchase. Shipping would add considerably to the purchase price, as would the road trip to pick it up.
If things don't work out with the SCMI I'm looking at, then I'm sure something else will come up locally. I just need to be patient.
Paul

[Paul Incognito]

I ended up getting an SCMI SI-12. Picked it up this afternoon. I'll spend the day tomorrow cleaning and setting it up. It's a little rough, but the price was right and it'll clean up real nice.
Thanks everyone for your input and advise. It was very helpful.

Paul

PS. I'll get some pics tomorrow.

[Paul Incognito]

As promised, here's a couple of pics so I can prove it really happened:
283872
The saw as found. Surface rust on the top and fence rail. The cabinet full of sawdust. All the adjustments work but are tight.
283874
Here's the pile of parts it came with. The cosscut fence, 2 rip fences, hold down, 1 stop for the crosscut fence, a few different scoring blades, a few main blades and a box of assorted hardware.
283873 283875
And after about an hour of cleaning up and assembling.

I waxed the table top and fence rail, the fence glides pretty well now (would hardly move at all with the rust on the rail). The slider works well, I still need to pick up some silicone lube for it.
Did a couple of test cuts and everything works pretty well.
Still need to get the dust collection run to it and build an outfeed table. I'm hoping I can get that done today.
So far I'm pretty happy with it.

Thanks once more for all the help and advice.

Paul

[Larry Edgerton]

Thats a great little saw Paul! Happy for you.

Larry

[Jim Andrew]

What is the size of that saw? Looks like a homeowner size saw. Be cool to live in an area you can actually buy a good used slider.

[johnny means]

Let me be the first to say
"YOU SUCK!"

Nice catch. I had an SI 16 for a few years. These SCMIs are real workhorses, you should be really pleased with this one.

[Larry Edgerton]

What is the size of that saw? Looks like a homeowner size saw. Be cool to live in an area you can actually buy a good used slider.

That would be one well equipped homeowner. A Uni/PM is in no way comparable to that saw, and is just a dream for Grizzley

Larry

[David Kumm]

I use slick 50 on the bearing rails. Check the outrigger support too. they are often packed with dust and make the slider seem rough when the problem is the support. Good luck, Dave

[Larry Fox]

That would be one well equipped homeowner. A Uni/PM is in no way comparable to that saw, and is just a dream for Grizzley

Larry

Agree with Larry here - I have one of these and came from a Uni and there is just no comparison. Nice score Paul, looks like it cleaned up very well - you will be happy with it.

[Erik Loza]

Congrats, Paul. One tip I might suggest (and possibly you already thought of this...) would be to dismount the cast iron rip fence knuckle and buff out the inner bore with a Scotchbrite pad. I do this even on new machines and it really improves the feel. Also, I might put one of the mini Scotchbrite buffs on the flexible wand of a Dremel tool, get inside the cabinet, and buff out the acme threads on the raising/lowering and tilting screws. I would bet they look just like your rip fence guide bar did, before.

Best of luck with it,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[johnny means]

That would be one well equipped homeowner. A Uni/PM is in no way comparable to that saw, and is just a dream for Grizzley

Larry

I was thinking the same thing. Pretty sure SCMI doesn't do consumer grade.

[Jim Andrew]

The slider on that saw looks like one on a Hammer saw. The SCMi my friends have is a monster, with a 10 foot slider.

[Paul Incognito]

Thanks everybody. I'm pretty happy with the saw!

I spent the snow day getting it set up. I just have to build an outfeed table for it.
I'll take the outrigger support off tomorrow, the slider works well, but could be smoother. I used silicone spray on the rails.
Good point Eric, I'll try and get to the raise/lower and tilt stuff. I did clean the inside of the rip fence and am amazed at how well it glides across the table.

I originally wanted a saw the size of the SI 12, then found an SI 16 on craigslist and was going to look at it. Then this SI 12 came up for almost $2,000 less and I went and bought it. The 16 is still available if anyone's interested. It's on the Lancaster craigslist.

Here's a picture of the shop. I set the shaper up while I was at it. It's been sitting for a year. I have a couple of cabinet jobs coming up that I'll put them to use on.

Thanks again,
Paul
283916

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Nice shop and machine Paul!