Router plane advice

[Daniel Rode]

I'm after a large router plane and I have a few choices. My intended uses for this is fitting tenons, and cleaning up dados and grooves. I'm not convinced the large router will be useful for mortising smaller hinges, but it may get occasional use for larger hinges and such.

Here's my run down of the options.



Vintage Stanley or similar. These will mostly come open throat with mediocre depth stop or closed throat with no depth stop. Clean complete sets are selling for upwards of $150. The remaining tools that are incomplete or rusted or both are still selling for $75 - $100. Even in perfect condition, these don't approach the precision and easy / repeatable adjustments of the new planes. Regardless, I could probably do anything I need with 1 cutter on the most basic model. At $50 I'm all over a vintage router plane but $100 for a user that will need some rehab is way too much.
Lie Nielsen - $140 with a single 3/8" cutter and a fence. Comes open or closed throat but I'll take the closed. LN has taken the Stanley design and tried to prefect it. The only downside is getting other size cutters. With a $40 adapter, I can use the few irons from their small router plane ($35). The included fence is nice bit I'm not sure if I'll ever use it.
Veritas from LV - $149 with a pair of 1/2" cutters but no fence. It's a unique closed throat design that doesn't borrow much from the Stanley lineage. For $10 nor or $15 later I can add a fence. They offer a number of different size cutters for under $15 each and no adapter is needed. Last but not least, the removable foot and included guide make this the easiest to sharpen. If they were all the same price, I'd choose this one.


The LN and Veritas are both beautiful, precision tools but $140+ is a lot to pay trim a tenon or clean out the bottom of a dado. I wan't to spend $50 or less. That extra $90 could go toward wood or other tools that I also need and that may get more use.

So, do I keep searching for the Unicorn router plane that costs $50 and can be cleaned up for use easily or do I spend 3x as much to get a premium tool that's probably too nice.

[Keith Mathewson]

I have all three. IMO the Lie Nielsen router plane is the worst designed tool that they make. The Veritas is very similar to a vintage Stanley and doesn't work any better. Buy an old Stanley, you can find them any day on eBay.

[maximillian arango]

I've been trying to buy a Stanley router plane (no. 71) since it is the last tool I need before trying to attempt my first project which would greatly benefit from having one. I haven't been able to win one but it is because I suffer from PCSS(poor college student syndrome) but I have come close to winning a few of them have been going for less than 40 dollars before shipping(40 is my limit including shipping). Don't give up on a 71 yet they go plenty cheap and now that you know my limit you can out bid me too.:(

If I don't get one soon my first project will be making a router plane, by the way have you considered that?

[Maurice Ungaro]

I went with the LV version, and it is a very solid design. Depth stop works nicely. Blades are easier to sharpen, and you don't need a dang adapter to fiddle with tiny blades. The LV also takes the standard Stanley blades as well.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I also bought the LV router plane and got the fence and inlay cutters. Very versatile and in my opinion the best option for versatility.

[Jim Ritter]

Have you thought about making one?
This is one I made just before Christmas. I bought the blade from L-N and made everything else.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m628/boatman53/d322b5de6d29432edb7cf3293f8668d7_zps87582789.jpg

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m628/boatman53/7f3af080fb973a2b7cb4b48f942f3c7f_zps7a66db7f.jpg

Jim

[Daniel Rode]

Beautiful work, Jim. I don't want to make one myself, though. I have too many other projects to get done first.

[Jim Ritter]

I know the feeling Dan, just thought I'd throw it out there. Thanks for the comment.
Jim

[Frederick Skelly]

I bought the LV. Both are nice tools. The tie breaker for me was the ability to add on accessories for string inlay work some day.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dan

Assuming that cost is not a factor, the pick of the bunch is the LV.

The Stanley works but is clunky compared to the precision of both the LV and LN. Either of the LV and LN would bring a smile to the face of its user.

The decision to choose either the LV and LN comes down to a few factors. The heart of a router plane is the way the plane changes blades, blade fine adjustment, and the ease of the depth stop. The LV is the easier to change and adjust blades (as the clamp is spring loaded), plus it has a wider selection of blades. LN continue to use an adapter for the small router plane blades, and this is a pain as the blades drop out. It is rumoured that they will be offered more blades in the future. In the meantime, the blades from LV cover a wide range, and are easier to hone. I have an article on sharpening router plane blades here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/SharpeningRouterPlaneBlades.html

The LV has a better fence system - it may not get used a lot but it is very useful when needed. I would either get it now, or plan on getting it later. The LN uses the Stanley design and this has less range.

You may decide that the feels of one is preferred over the other and that this decides you. They have different handles, with the LN more inboard and the LV more outboard.

Edit to add information.

The review I wrote on the LV router plane in 2006 clearly needs to be updated. Since then, LV have improved the depth stop and have added other accessories. As with the Small Plow, it is evident that the router plane can become the heart of a system. The question just remains whether the system is worth the effort?

Very recently I needed to score a double line for a slot that would morticed into a stretcher. The inlay attachment for the LV router plane did this perfectly ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThChairSlottingTheStretchers(2)_html_476c7c00.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Maurice Ungaro]

I also bought the LV router plane and got the fence and inlay cutters. Very versatile and in my opinion the best option for versatility.

What Malcolm said. I should have mentioned the versatility as well. While the fence is an additional cost versus the LN, I think the value is better in the LV.

[Derek Cox]

I have found that the router plane is one of those joinery tools that I really use a lot, much more so than a shoulder plane for instance. My main work at the moment is Japanese Carpentry joinery - you can see a thread here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=159868) (just to show what I'm doing, your work may not have as greater use or need as mine). Obviously we all have price limits and no-one can tell you what you should spend, but I bought the Lee Valley version and I really like it, very precisely made, good cutters that are easy to sharpen. Their add on bits obviously give you a large growth path if you find yourself wanting to do other things with it later.

Hope this helps

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

You don't need a router plane. You don't need a router plane. I was a cabinetmaker for years before I got one.
If you want to make tenons, learn to saw right to the line, clean up with chisel if necessary. Leaving extra just so you can clean up with a router is a big time waster; lots of extra set up time and work time. If you want to clean the bottom of a dado, use a chisel and a mallet. The chisel has no set up time and is much easier to sharpen.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Warren

Your reply raises an interesting question, which I shall take to a new thread since it is at a tangent to the topic here. I look forward to you adding your thoughts. Keep an eye out.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Greg Wease]

I have gotten a lot of use out of a Stanley #71 with a 1/2" blade from Lee Valley.

[Chris Griggs]

Router planes

....they are not required of any task...a chisel CAN do what they can do

....they are not the ideal tools for many taks..rabbets are better with a rabbet plane, grooves are done better with a plow plane, dado are quicker done with a dado plane.

...BUT, and this is a big BUT.....they are a REALLY useful tool for a WHOLE LOT of tasks.

For me the router plane opened up the world of hand cut joinery. Before I had a rabbet or plow and before I had much skill with chisel, it helped me with a lot of stuff. I don't use it as much anymore, but it a really nice tool to have and can be of huge benefit as you develop you hand tool skills, and I do still use it a good bit.

I have the LV...I picked it because of the fence and the large blade selection...I'm glad I did.

[lowell holmes]

The router plane excels in trimming tenons, IMO, better than any other method.

I have an old Stanley that I cleaned up and bought LV irons for it.

That use alone justifies their existence.

[Sean Hughto]

Warren, the truth is that there are plenty of tools we don't "need"', but that can be useful and fun depending upon ones choices as to methods of work. There are always work arounds too. But that doesn't mean folks should not figure out what works for them and what their personal preferences are. A router plane is mighty nice for inlay. It's mighty nice for letting in hinges. It's mighty nice for tenons too if you are a hobbiest and want to make m&ts before you can reliably saw to a line 100% of the time not to mention mark out perfectly and chop mortises perfectly. I kind of hate it when professionals try to set hobbiests up for frustration by telling them that they should not use any tools that make things easier and instead should just use saws perfectly or the like. The poor hobbiests will spend their weekends practicing sawing as price of admission instead of making nice strong furniture. Sorry, this is not a personal attack, just another perspective. I'm just a hobbiest apologist I guess.

For the op, I have the LN nd the LV. The LV fence is a big plus for me, but he LN is a very nice tool. Depends on how you think you'll be using it most of the time.

[Judson Green]

Here's my router a Stanley 71½. Got as part of a larger deal a little more than a year ago. Did see a couple 71's at a local flea market last year the price was very far (like under $20 iirc) but I passed. I've bought a few extra cutters from LV. Haven't used it for tenons but have for stopped and though grooves (I haven't a plow) also a little inlay work. I've changed the sub base to allow the cutters to be used on the other side of the post since these photos.

Don't think it's a tool ya gotta have but

283077 283078

I'd look for a vintage one at a flea market or whatever, I'm sure you can find a good deal.
Make your own fence or just clamp on a straight board.

[Daniel Rode]

Warren, you make a couple of interesting points. I don't need a router plane. The tables I'm currently building have many M&T joints (34 each, IIRC). I did the cleanup with a chisel and file. It was then that I decided that I wanted a router plane because, for a weekend woodworker like myself, it's far more accurate and repeatable. While the table joints are acceptable, I'm convinced that I would have done more consistent work is less time with a router plane.

I'm an entirely self taught amateur with no interest in doing this for a living. The downside is that I may never be able to dedicate the time it takes to master any facet of woodworking. The upside, though is that I have this incredible freedom to make exactly what I want, when and how it suits me.

I don't need a router plane but I think I'll enjoy fitting tenons with one more than I would with a chisel and file. I just want a less expensive one :)


You don't need a router plane. You don't need a router plane. I was a cabinetmaker for years before I got one.
If you want to make tenons, learn to saw right to the line, clean up with chisel if necessary. Leaving extra just so you can clean up with a router is a big time waster; lots of extra set up time and work time. If you want to clean the bottom of a dado, use a chisel and a mallet. The chisel has no set up time and is much easier to sharpen.

[Jack Curtis]

We don't even have a full size router plane and have been getting along great for a very large number of years. We do have two or three tiny routers for inlay and like, which work great.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm after a large router plane and I have a few choices. My intended uses for this is fitting tenons, and cleaning up dados and grooves. I'm not convinced the large router will be useful for mortising smaller hinges, but it may get occasional use for larger hinges and such.

Vintage Stanley or similar. These will mostly come open throat with mediocre depth stop or closed throat with no depth stop.

Even a big router can come in handy with small hinges. My recent post on a six board bench had a detail image of a small hinge mortise in which a router was used. They were 1-1/2"X1/2".

First the router was used like a marking gauge on the edge for the hinge mortise's depth. Most of the removal of waste was done with a chisel. Then the router plane was used to make a uniform depth and then to slightly adjust the depth. When the top is closed all of the hinge has to sit inside the hinge mortise. Otherwise it can stress the mounting screws if the mortise is too shallow or too deep.

I find a wide chisel faster for trimming tenons. A chisel can do a lot of the work a router can do. The router plane can hold the blade at a set depth much better than most of us can hold a chisel over a distance.

My router is a Sargent #68 (Equivalent to the Stanley #71). It use LV blades. I put a wooden base on mine so the adjuster nut doesn't have to be flipped.

One thing to consider is once the blade is extended beyond the base the throat/mouth is wide open.

If it were my money I would likely be most interested in the LV at this time.

Or I would keep a search on that auction site, scour Craigslist, antique shops, flea markets and yard sales for a good user to start with.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

Your point is well taken, Sean. My post is a little overstated. I felt there needed to be some balance in the advice given Dan.

In the 1970's I had some advice from Daniel O'Hagan, hand tool pioneer. He said "Don't be ashamed of your mistakes." I never really knew what he meant by this, but after that I started going for the line, not worrying about the consequences. The result was that not only did my joinery become faster, but much neater as well. My skills took a great leap. I think using the router for tenons is long run counter productive.


t
The LN and Veritas are both beautiful, precision tools but $140+ is a lot to pay trim a tenon or clean out the bottom of a dado. I wan't to spend $50 or less. That extra $90 could go toward wood or other tools that I also need and that may get more use.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Your point is well taken, Sean. My post is a little overstated. I felt there needed to be some balance in the advice given Dan.


What balance?

What advice was given?

Daniel didn't ask if he needed a Router Plane, he asked if he should keeping looking for a cheapie or (inevitably) spend the money on a premium model. Most of the replies were from users giving their experience of the various Router Planes that Daniel summarised.

Yes we all know that back in the day cavemen built Hepplewhite cabinets with just an axe and the back of his hairy wife but not everyone wants to have only three tools in their shop.

[Chris Griggs]

In the 1970's I had some advice from Daniel O'Hagan, hand tool pioneer. He said "Don't be ashamed of your mistakes." I never really knew what he meant by this, but after that I started going for the line, not worrying about the consequences. The result was that not only did my joinery become faster, but much neater as well. My skills took a great leap. I think using the router for tenons is long run counter productive.

This is a very important point. Its a mindset I've really had to push myself hard to embrace. I am slow and meticulous with my work by nature, and inherently want to slowly dial things in. BUT embracing this mindset has led me to greatly improve my accuracy and efficiency.

In specific regards to using a router to trim tenons. Well it is a very effective technique, but I have come to agree that in long run it is counter productive. Not in the end result of a piece, but in the context of improving sawing accuracy and becoming more efficient at completing hand cut joinery. I for some time relied on a router plane for trimming tenons, but when a few months ago the the topic of using a router plane to trim tenons came up, Stan Covington made a similar comment to Warren's. I initially disagreed, but when I stepped back and reevaluated my methods I saw his point. I pushed myself to saw with the goal that tenons would either fit off the saw or with nothing more than a few swipes of a chisel or float. As a result my joinery quality and speed improved greatly and in a very short time. Again, I'm not saying a router plane is a bad way to clean tenons...it can be very effective. But if one has the goal of being able to create joinery accurately and efficiently using hand tools I would encourage them to put the router plane aside for this particular task.

Anyway, that's all beside the original point of this thread. While I don't use a router for tenons anymore, I do still find it to be a very useful tool, even though I continue to push myself not to rely on it unnecessarily. As far as picking one, think about what you want to do with it. Do you want a variety of blade options...then you probably want the LV. Do you want an open throat and/or the more traditional grip provided by the upright handles...then you might want the LN. Do you just want something that will do the basic job for cheap...get a stanley.

[Sean Hughto]

Funny, the slowest part of tenons for me is perfecting the shoulders. Tenon cheeks are quick no matter how I do it. Do you arrive at perfect shoulders right off the saw too?

[Jim Matthews]

I use the LV large router for two major fitting steps, and the depth stop function makes that a breeze.

I split my tenons, get close with the chisel and use the router to establish uniform reveals on mating pieces.
That way, if my mortises are in the same plane, the faces of tenoned pieces can be as well.

For getting a uniform depth on dadoes, there's nothing I can use that makes that easier.

I think the most difficult part of any router plane is getting the blades sharp.
I think the modular design of the LV plane makes that easy,
the blades come off the upright post and hone fast.

Without a really sharp blade, it's more an instrument of demolition.

If you're going to cut lots of half laps, or tenons - they're real time savers.

[Jim Foster]

I found an old Stanley for $4.00 somewhere. Works great at leveling hinge mortises, large and small. I've used it for a few tenons also. I think the LV cutters will fit the old Stanley's although I have not tried yet.

[Warren Mickley]

Funny, the slowest part of tenons for me is perfecting the shoulders. Tenon cheeks are quick no matter how I do it. Do you arrive at perfect shoulders right off the saw too?
Sean, I mark the shoulder all around with a knife, then saw right to the line. I have made an awful lot of tenons so it is pretty fast, maybe 20 seconds for all four cuts.

Around 1979 Ian Kirby outlined a method in FWW that I used for about a year. He knifed the shoulder all around,and sawed to about 1/32 away. Then he put a wide chisel in the knife line and chopped the shoulder. It is slower than just sawing, but there is no fiddling around. Maybe you would like this method.

[Sean Hughto]

I basically do a variation of Kirby's method. It is not all that slow, just the slowest of the steps i go through- from mark out (fast with a wheel gauge which yields a knife line - a bit slower with a knife, if required, like with angled shoulders); to cheek cuts, to shoulder cuts, to chisel work on the shoulders, and sometimes a bit of tweaking on the cheek with whatever works for the project from chisel to router or file.

I can saw to the line on the shoulders, but the saw line is never as pretty as the chisel line as far as crispness. I'll do it with poplar and pine as the compression factor takes up any slack at the edge.

Do you saw wide tenon shoulder this way as well? A really like the chiseling 1/32 or whatever when sawing a 6" long apron shoulder or the like.

And do you use any appliance in cutting? Bench hook or what have you? How about shoulder planes? Any role?

Always interesting to hear how someone else approaches things. Thanks.

[Chris Griggs]

I more or less use the Kirby approach Warren describes for shoulders. Funny enough it is sorta the opposite of the mentality I just described since I am sawing away from the line, but at the same time there is no fitting. The saw just does the gross removal and then I chop, yes chop, not pare, right in the line. Tipping the chisel slightly forward and undercutting a little also avoids bruising the shoulder (except where shoulder meets shoulder at the edge of the board...obviously no undercutting there). Its a process that is more similar to first removing the waste in dovetails with a coping saw before chopping down with a chisel. It pretty much guarantees not only a true shoulder but also a clean shoulder and its pretty fast. For the cheeks, fit is important, as is trueness (e.g.no twist) but cleanliness less so, thus I find it quicker and more accurate to saw right to the line and minimize any trimming.

Sean, I just realized you posted while I was posting. Sounds like we are using a pretty identical method.

Generally, I just find it quicker to avoid the router plane on tenons unless I really beef up the cut. Ideally, I would not trim at all or at most just take a swipe or too with a float. It doesn't always happen that way, and because of that I have once again been considering getting a rabbet block or large shoulder (mine is a medium), as I would still rather take a couple quick swipes with a plane than use my router plane. The router plane is certainly very effective IF both faces are very parallel...that's another important distinction, I prep my stock by hand so in the name of efficiency I don't always take the time to make my faces are perfectly parallel or the exact same thickness and in those cases using the router plane can actually cut a tenon out of true. Not relying on the router plane lets me work from minimal reference faces. I think the router plane is a better trimming method for those using stock coming off a thickness planer.

[Jim Koepke]

I think the LV cutters will fit the old Stanley's although I have not tried yet.

My understanding is they will fit but the adjusting nut has to be flipped over to make them work.

My router is a Sargent that looks like a copy of the Stanley. Who knows who copied who?

I used to flip the nut. Then I put a wooden base on my router so it wouldn't leave metal marks on the work. That fixed the bit about having to flip the nut.

One thing that makes using a router plane easier for me wass to draw lines on the adjuster. I did mine in quarters and then eighths. Knowing my adjuster has 18 threads per inch and a little math indicates each 1/8th turn moves the blade down ~0.007".

jtk

[Judson Green]

My understanding is they will fit but the adjusting nut has to be flipped over to make them work.

My router is a Sargent that looks like a copy of the Stanley. Who knows who copied who?

I used to flip the nut. Then I put a wooden base on my router so it wouldn't leave metal marks on the work. That fixed the bit about having to flip the nut.

One thing that makes using a router plane easier for me wass to draw lines on the adjuster. I did mine in quarters and then eighths. Knowing my adjuster has 18 threads per inch and a little math indicates each 1/8th turn moves the blade down ~0.007".

jtk

LV cutters do fit the Stanley (at least my 71½). Not sure if I flipped the adjuster nut over or not, have a ~ ½" sub base attached.

[Jim Koepke]

Not sure if I flipped the adjuster nut over or not, have a ~ ½" sub base attached.

The sub base makes flipping the adjuster nut unnecessary.

jtk

[Steven J Corpstein]

I purchased the Lie Nielsen and after using it for several projects, bought the Lee Valley router. I like LN tools, but this one should have spent a bit more time in development. The small blade adaptor is fiddly and doesn't lock the blade into the plane in a positive way. I've had a time or two where the blade pulled out because the groove was tight and when I lifted the router up, it stuck in the groove and pulled out some. Lee Valley designed theirs so that it uses the same size blades (large and small) and they attach the same way making a much more predictable hookup.

[Warren Mickley]

Do you saw wide tenon shoulder this way as well? A really like the chiseling 1/32 or whatever when sawing a 6" long apron shoulder or the like.

And do you use any appliance in cutting? Bench hook or what have you? How about shoulder planes? Any role?

For especially wide tenons, like where I would make two or three tenons in series, I use a dado plane at the shoulder, then plane the rest with jack and smoothing plane to the line. As Nicholson (1812) says In this way you may make a tenon of any breadth.

I use a side hook for cutting tenon shoulders. I have never used a shoulder plane.

Chris, I suppose that with a router trimming there are some questions about the need for a precise back face. We certainly don't like using more than one reference surface. The nice thing about the traditional method is that the mortise gauge is set from the chisel and marks both tenon and mortise from the reference face, a lot less chances for cumulative error.

[Jim R Edwards]

I own a LN closed mouth large router plane and am very happy with it.